[wonderboy2005]

OK I did a silly thing. I put my 1ghz 12"PB with a 40 gig HD on ebay and sold it two days ago. I could barely use it anymore. I have pulled everything off it, songs, pictures, and I only have 1 gig of space left. So I got frustrated and threw it up on Ebay and it sold for $860 which is the going price with a combo drive and an Applecare warranty. Anyway. Now I need to replace it becaise the guy that bought mine wants me to deliver it to him sooner then later and I can't be without a powerbook so I need to buy another quick.
I just found out that apple is about to announce there new products and the possibility of an intel Powerbook anyday now. Does anybody know what day the announcements will come. Is it Jan 9th? . My concern isn't that I should I wait for an intel PB but more about price. If I buy the 12" PB today wil it be selling for less next week after an the MAC announcements? That is the big question
The good news is that I am an Itunes Producer ( I upload my songs to Itunes) and I can get a big discount on a new 12"PB it only cost sme $1199 plus tax and shipping as opposed to $1499 plus tax and shipping. so I am doing alright to begin with. Please someone hep me with this decision, If I have to I guess I can make the guy who bought my PB wait until next week. i already told him I was on vacation and wouldn't be back until Jan 9th

[chucker]

There will be a keynote on January 10.

[Mugge]

If you are going to ship the PB on January the 9th and the keynote is the day after, I'd say don't buy anything before you have heard the Keynote. Which can be a problem without the PB, but perhaps you can gain internet access somewhere else?

Regardless of what Mr. Jobs says you will probably go for a week without a PB. but if they are going to upgrade them to Yonah, it's a big thing. And I wouldn't want to sit back with a G4 PB in that situation.

If you really can't live without a Mac for these few days, I'd suggest you to order a refurbished or used iBook today, just to get you though January 10th and shipping time.

Just because money isn't a pressing problem, there's no need to act economically irrational.

[Mac Donald]

Let me just say that I think you are being a jerk by selling something on ebay to someone who needs it now, and lying to him that you can't get it to him when he needs it. FYI: when you sell something on ebay, you enter into a contract and you are under an obligation to deliver it within a reasonable time. If you were not prepared to sell it when you sold it you should not have put it up for sale.

Further, what you are doing is withholding the PB until it goes down significantly in price. That is essentially fraud. Frankly, I am half tempted to contact the person you sold it to and let him know what you are doing. Not that hard to do based on the information provided.

[Mac Donald]

Let me expand on how fraudulently you are acting. You are selling a commodity at today's price, but waiting on delivery so that you may be able to get a replacement commodity at a lower tomorrow's price. This is essentially stealing from the guy you sold it too. He too could wait until January 10 to buy something at a presumably lower price (if that happens), but he made a decision (for whatever reason) to buy under current conditions. I again suggest you either ship tomorrow or contact the buyer and let him know what you are doing and give him the option of cancelling.

Mugge writes: "Just because money isn't a pressing problem, there's no need to act economically irrational." Yes, but this guy should not be stealing from another Mac user (or from anyone for that matter). These sorts of shenanigans should not be tolerated, and I don't think people on this board should be offering advice on how to scam another presumably honest person out of money. [Edited out per chucker's comments.] I've been screwed around with on ebay before and it's not fun.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by http://forums.applenova.com/guidelines.html Ad-hominem attacks of forum members will not be tolerated. We understand that things get heated, but it helps to maintain a modicum of respect for the membership. Attack ideas, not people. Be open-minded and try to help foster meaningful discussion. Yes, meaningful discussion is possible if everyone respects each other.

That said, I understand your anger, but I believe you are putting things out of proportion. All he's doing is selling his old PowerBook, realizing that a new revision may be very close, and trying to minimize the period of time he'll have to deal without any PowerBook whatsoever. He's made a mistake and he's admitted that, but I don't think any harm was intended, and I certainly don't think this is a case of "fraud".

[Mugge]

I think you are on to something Mac Donald.

I'm not 100 % sure about the fraud thing, but I'm kinda embarrassed that this didn't occur to me when I first saw this post. But I'm not sure it's downright illegal.*

Well, whether wonderboy ships the PB now or later doesn't alter the fact that the buyer is taking a risk by buying it this close to MWSF. But that's the buyers responsibility/risk, not the sellers.

wonderboy. I urge you to get that PB cleaned up and mailed to your buyer right now. Or the buyer might give you a bad ebay review.

*) Under danish (and scandinavian) law it's wouldn't be illegal, but the buyer could demand delivery or money back. In reality, however, the buyer would usually just have to be patient, or ultimately sue the seller. The latter being unrealistic in this case.

EDIT:
I think I can agree with chucker, without messing with this posts message and meaning. Nothing personal intended from my side.

EDIT2:
Naw, my post is quite confusing.
What I meant was that it's not nice to withhold goods that you have sold and obligated yourself to deliver within a certain time. But it's not illegal. Plus wat chucker said.
I'll just cut here before I go off on a StupidRant™

[Mac Donald]

Chucker -- I think fraud is not an inappropriate way to describe what he is doing. Agreed he did not intend at the outset to act this way, but let's look at what he's now doing. He wants use of the Powerbook he has sold for the next 10 days until the price on it drops. At the same time, he wants to hold the person he sold it to to the price it is today, but not give that person the benefit of the bargain -- that he be able to use it now. Further, he admits that he has lied to the buyer to accomplish his goal of retaining the powerbook. I too would have liked to sell my powerbook in December before the price presumably drops due to the intel switch. At the same time, I made a decision that I needed the Powerbook for this time so I would have to keep it and then sell it at a lower price when I buy a new intel machine -- or a better refurb'd G4 powerbook at the lower price.

This appears pretty open and shut to me.

UPDATE: I don't want to keep hitting the point, but in response to the above by mugge, regardless of whether it is "illegal", it is a clear and unambiguous breach of contract. A deal was made where money was to be exchanged for a product. Wonderboy is not keeping his end of the deal. The deal was not deliver the computer after Wonderboy could get a better deal on his end and still hold the buyer to the higher price.

As to fraud, fraud is a knowing misrepresentation -- or a knowing withholding of material information -- intended to make another person take action, or not take action, in reliance on that misrepresentation. Is there any question that Wonderboy made a misrepresentation -- that he CANNOT ship the PB? Further, he is clearly intending to get the buyer to rely on it, i.e. not to press for further delivery of the PB. Again, Wonderboy wants his cake and wants to eat it too.

[Ichiban_jay]

In either case, remember to use your OS's disk and boot from it, then go to disk utility and have it wipe the hard drive 7-times over. You don't want whoever it's going to to be able to pull of your personal info with software.

[Mugge]

Originally Posted by Mac Donald UPDATE: I don't want to keep hitting the point, but in response to the above by mugge, regardless of whether it is "illegal", it is a clear and unambiguous breach of contract. A deal was made where money was to be exchanged for a product. Wonderboy is not keeping his end of the deal. The deal was not deliver the computer after Wonderboy could get a better deal on his end and still hold the buyer to the higher price. As to fraud, fraud is a knowing misrepresentation -- or a knowing withholding of material information -- intended to make another person take action, or not take action, in reliance on that misrepresentation. Is there any question that Wonderboy made a misrepresentation -- that he CANNOT ship the PB? Further, he is clearly intending to get the buyer to rely on it, i.e. not to press for further delivery of the PB. Again, Wonderboy wants his cake and wants to eat it too.

Ok. I'm not very much at home with what must be american (commonwealth?) civil law. But in Denmark we have two degrees of what we are talking about here. Fraud is the most serious one (punishable by criminal law), and the less serious one is called deceit (crudely translated) I don't know if you operate with such a term. But I think in Denmark this would be concidered to be deceit, wich is still considered illegal. But Not really punishable by criminal law, it just allows the other party to cancel the contract.

How does this work in the states?

[torifile]

I'm with Mac Donald on this one (perhaps not as extreme). I'd be pissed if I were your buyer. You made the mistake, you should have to deal with the consequences. Whether that be buying a powerbook that'll possibly be updated or waiting without a computer, that's the consequence. It's no longer YOUR computer to hold on to. You're using someone else's computer, without his permission.

Shame on you. You should let the buyer out of your contract and refund his money. And hope you don't get negative feedback (though you should).

[Mac Donald]

Mugge -- Under the common law (under which all US states excepting Lousiana and most British commonwealth jurisdictions function), fraud and deceit are essentially the same thing. Fraud is generally criminal, but it depends on the degree and I can say fairly confidently that Wonderboy's actions would almost certainly not give rise to criminal prosecution. He would be, however, liable for civil damages caused to the buyer, and punitive damages on top of those to deter future such conduct.

A breach of contract, however, is never criminal (except perhaps in very limited circumstances) and does not give rise to punitive damages, only damages to compensate. Thus, if Wonderboy were simply honest and said to the buyer that he would not be complying with the contract, the buyer's only recourse would be to recover whatever damages caused by Wonderboy's breach (probably very little if nothing given that the price on the PBs is coming down although perhaps the buyer would have a claim for damages on the lost use for a couple of days). This is all academic however as I think this is really a morality question, not one that would ever be dealt with in the courts.

[wonderboy2005]

No need to get ll bent out of shape. I already contacted the person who I sold it to and talked to him about the situation. I am not trying to commit fraud just asking for buying advice.. I had no intent on this being fraudenlent, When I put the PH on ebay I had no idea that there going to be announcements made in the next week. I was totally intending on shipping my PB tomorrow and buying a new one. Then all of a sudden I go on this web site and find out that this big announcement is coming up and I should wait. That's what everybody is saying, so I git stuck because if I ship my PB tomorrow and can't buy for ten days I am screwed. So I called the buyer and explained it to him. I am prepared to give him a discount if the prices drop. So please don't go all nust over this I am not trying to commit fraud. Still no one answered my question. If you think the prices won't drop then I will go ahaed and buy my new one tomorrow and ship my old one.

[Mugge]

Thanks for explaining the legal aspects of this in relation to commonwealth law Mac Donald. I also agree with you and torifile on the moral issue. It's not a nice thing to do, and wonderboy should exhibit a more loyal behaviour towards his buyer immediately.



EDIT:
Compliments to wonderboy for being honest!

[chucker]

Originally Posted by wonderboy2005 If you think the prices won't drop then I will go ahaed and buy my new one tomorrow and ship my old one.

If Apple's laptop line-up gets updated, which is not too unlikely, then yes, prices on old models will inevitably drop.

[Mac Donald]

Wonderboy in first entry: "i already told him I was on vacation and wouldn't be back until Jan 9th."

Wonderboy in last entry: "I was totally intending on shipping my PB tomorrow and buying a new one. . . . So I called the buyer and explained it to him. I am prepared to give him a discount if the prices drop."

Sounds like you are singing a different tune. If indeed you changed your mind of your own accord or even if you are now telling the truth, good for you. Your original post, however, showed a willingness to lie and take advantage of someone. We all make mistakes, I hope you learned from this one.

[torifile]

I call bullshit on wonderboy.

[Mugge]

I'll give him benefit of doubt.

At least it makes me look less naive.

[billybobsky]

Moral issues aside, I don't think the PB will get updated next week.