possibility new intel-powerbook...isight & widescreen [Archive]

pscates2.0

2005-11-05, 12:39

Why is everyone completely hung up on the 12" PowerBook? I'm certainly not dinging it (having nearly bought one myself, and I love them). BUT, the current one is pretty neglected and I think - for whatever reason - simply isn't going to get much more love.

If a 13-14" widescreen iBook came out (I'm tired of providing these numbers over and over, but it really shouldn't be much deeper than the existing 12" Apple laptops, and only an inch or two wider...is that such a horrible burden?) and it had a honkin' Yonah processor (and all that it entails), plus all the other goodies we know to expect (AirPort, Bluetooth 2.0, FireWire, USB, Ethernet, etc.) and possibly some new ones (scrolling trackpad, iSight, sudden motion sensor, etc.), who would want a 12" PowerBook anyway, especially in its neglected, ceiling-hitting current state?

:confused:

There simply might not be a place for a 12" PowerBook in Apple's future. There's no guarantee ANY of their stuff has to stick around, just because "we like it". Remember the Cube? TiBook? iPod mini? Loved and admired, worldwide. But GONE, every one. Some way before their time, many would argue.

Life goes on.

Be happy this stuff is possibly coming out sooner than later, and will most likely kick the living hell out of any laptop Apple is selling today!

:eek:

Those of you getting too hung up on silver vs. white, Power vs. i, etc. and conjuring up crazy product lines that probably don't stand a chance of ever coming to be (what is a Starbook?), are setting yourselves up to be perpetually disappointed and yearning, I think.

For a good while, many of us called the 12" PowerBook a silver iBook anyway. Maybe Apple finally realized that, and knew that the 15" and 17" provide the space and design to truly create a monster professional laptop, and that a decent, more-than-respectable new iBook could be created with these new Intel processors...and that going wide keeps it small and shallow. Best of all worlds, and MAYBE they'll even have DVI on the new iBook? Or at least a high-end, or BTO, model? At that point, there truly is no need for a 12" PowerBook.

And if you've got a true "gotta be super small so I can use it on my train commute" fetish, then get a 10" Sony Vaio or whatever, and STFU.

:D

Because I really don't think Apple is going to ever go that route, as sad as that may be to some...

sunrain

2005-11-05, 12:59

And if you've got a true "gotta be super small so I can use it on my train commute" fetish, then get a 10" Sony Vaio or whatever, and STFU.

:D

Because I really don't think Apple is going to ever go that route, as sad as that may be to some...
And somewhere, Escher (http://forums.applenova.com/member.php?u=162) is sobbing quietly. Are you happy now? :D

pscates2.0

2005-11-05, 13:44

Ah, I'm sorry... :D

Didn't mean to sound harsh at all. I was just accepting that maybe Apple doesn't see where to take the 12", and want to focus on making a true, no-compromise PowerBook based on the 15" and 17".

And a new Yonah-based iBook could fill the lower slot (and still be small, slim and more powerful than anything we're accustomed to).

That ain't so terrible, is it? :)

Over three years since I mocked it up, I might be getting my wish of a widescreen iBook. And I'm digging that April-May timeframe...tax refund, PLUS my car is paid for in March...

Excited to see what happens!

MCQ

2005-11-05, 13:54

If they drop the 12" PB, then all they have to do is make the iBook with DVI-out, supported monitor spanning, and a 5400 rpm HD (optional 7200rpm) by May. Call it whatever you want.

Robo

2005-11-05, 14:01

The problem with a 13" iBook wouldn't be that it would be too big, but that it would be an iBook. Apple would no longer have a small professional notebook. That's a pretty big void, if you ask me.

I agree that Apple doesn't know where to take the 12". But isn't that what this Intel transition for? Isn't Apple supposed to be getting powerful, low-power chips?

As for a complicated lineup that has no chance of being, this is my concept for Apple's future notebook line:

13" iBook.
13" Prosumer mobile notebook. (That's the Starbook.)
15" Powerbook.
17" Powerbook.

That's simpler than the line they currently have.

I agree that they should focus on making the Powerbook a "monster professional laptop." I agree that they should design it around the 15" screen (like they've been doing.) I just also think that there needs to be a smaller, mid-range notebook.

We all complained that the 12" Powerbook wasn't really a Powerbook, and it wasn't. My concept would just take that and make it a new line. (Call it what you will.)

I really don't think it is that unreasonable, or that I'm setting myself up for dissapointment. What, do you think Apple is going to have a $1,000 gap in their notebook line?

Anthem

2005-11-05, 14:05

13" iBook.
13" Prosumer mobile notebook. (That's the Starbook.)

What's the difference?

If you want to simplify the lines, why not just go to three laptops, total?

On the other hand, that 12" PB is probably their top-margin machine.

pscates2.0

2005-11-05, 14:21

The problem with a 13" iBook wouldn't be that it would be too big, but that it would be an iBook. Apple would no longer have a small professional notebook. That's a pretty big void, if you ask me.

What if they just had a "small good notebook"? What makes it officially "professional"? The silver casing? The word "Power" in its name?

What are you calling "professional"? Define.

:confused:

What, do you think Apple is going to have a $1,000 gap in their notebook line?

Where are you getting a "$1,000 gap" from?

Satchmo

2005-11-05, 15:00

If the rumours pan out that these laptops will be thinner by 25%, a 13" widescreen iBook could possibly be lighter and take up less area space than the 12" Powerbook.

pscates2.0

2005-11-05, 15:03

Exactly. If people would stop freaking out, they'll realize they may very well get something BETTER (smaller, lighter AND more powerful!) than their beloved 12" PowerBook.

:eek:

That's all I've been saying. Those who think the 12" PowerBook is the pinnacle, and the end-all/be-all of small Apple laptops, are being shortsighted. Anything can be improved on, or done better...history tells us that.

:)

In five or so months, there might be an Apple laptop that makes every one of us forget the 12" PowerBook ever existed. Take the example of the iPod mini...a HUGE seller and wildly popular, and loved by millions. Then along comes the nano. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see much handwringing and wailing over the iPod mini these days...anyone else?

;)

MCQ

2005-11-05, 15:05

What if they just had a "small good notebook"? What makes it officially "professional"? The silver casing? The word "Power" in its name?

What are you calling "professional"? Define.

:confused:

Yeah, as the lines of 12" PB/iBook continue to blur, they might as well just integrate the few features of the PB that's not in the current iBook (basically what I listed above) and call it whatever you want. [enter some random prefix here]Book.

Where are you getting a "$1,000 gap" from?

I'm assuming he's getting it from the current 12" iBook $999 price point (assuming they standardize on a 13" iBook and keep it at $999) to the current 15" PB $1999 price point.

Satchmo

2005-11-05, 15:17

One thing that hasn't been speculated on is the type of screen display.
I'd love to see some kind of X-Brite type display...although the glare might get irritating over time.

aboodoo

2005-11-05, 15:19

Hmm... I'm looking at getting a 12" PB at the moment (just had to cancel an order for one as the lease fell through). I can't afford a 15", would need dual screen (officially supported), but could otherwise get by with the iBook (since it has Airport Extreme, Bluetooth 2 and Sudden Motion Sensor). Now if they wanted to keep the distinction, they could have kept the iBook on Bluetooth 1.1/1.5 and without a Sudden Motion Sensor.

Seeing as everyone knows the dual screen thingy is there but disabled on the iBook, perhaps the 13" iBook *is* going to be the one for pros who work on the train? I see an awful lot of iBooks and PowerBooks on trains, and size is an issue (ever seen someone with a 17" PB on a train? Quite amusing - not, if you're sat opposite them)

Maybe if it wasn't crippled in any way and they called it a "Book mini", "PowerBook nano" or something :-)

It's unbelievably thin, and comes in glossy white or black...

(could intel PowerBooks be cheaper, so mere mortals like myself could afford a 15"? That's the other option :-) )

Dave Hagan

2005-11-05, 19:37

One thing that hasn't been speculated on is the type of screen display.
I'd love to see some kind of X-Brite type display...although the glare might get irritating over time.
Steve & Apple will probably have some sort of answer for this with a totally redesigned notebook.

pscates2.0

2005-11-05, 20:35

Here's the Compaq laptop (http://hpshopping.speedera.net/www.shopping.hp.com/shopping/images/products/v2000chassis_400.jpg) I saw last week at Best Buy.

I went to the site and got a few specs:

14" widescreen @ 1280x768 (totally acceptable...no change on vertical - who cares - but a nice jump from 1024 to 1280 on the horizontal: palettes, GarageBand and iMovie timelines, etc.). For a consumer laptop, no one should squawk, especially if they use a bright, crisp display that's an improvement over the current iBook one?

Dimensions: 13.15" (w) x 9.1" (d) x 1.53" (h)

12" iBook dimensions: 11.2" (w) x 9.06" (d) x 1.35" (h)

As you can see, the iBook can go about two inches wider and barely change, depth-wise (.04") and voila...instant widescreen iBook.

...and that's all pretending Apple does nothing space-saving wise. If they go to work on the bezel and work their magic, who's to say they can't get something a bit smaller and thinner? Something as deep as the current 12" PowerBook everyone loves so much, and only 2" or so wider?

Dave Hagan

2005-11-05, 21:34

I think Apple already has the answer for the PowerBook 12-inch, although it may not be a PowerBook. What if the rumored iBook widescreen is everything that the PowerBook 12-inch has and more? The reason I say this is because I believe that the move to Intel processors will help Apple eliminate the need to castrate some of their consumer offerings just so they don't tread on pro territory. Of course, I am speaking of monitor spanning, optical and analog audio in and out, etc.

pscates2.0

2005-11-05, 21:46

Exactly.

I'm hoping this Intel switch signals an end to the practice of artificial crippling of their hardware.

shell

2005-11-05, 23:25

1)
"Starbook" is a horrible name, sounds like something out of the eighties.

2)
Does anyone else remember when there was only one size PowerBook - 15.2 inches. Then they introduced the 12", after that the 17". Who would expect them to realease everything at once? The engineers already have a lot of work to do switching the entire line to x86, no need to delay them by insisting that everything be done at the same time. If they do indeed want to switch the iBooks and PowerBooks at the same time then it makes sense to only create three models 13'', 15'', and 17''. That pretty much covers the range of sizes that people will want. After they release those models, there's time to work on other laptops. At some later point they can introduce the 15'' iBook and 13'' PowerBook, which will round out their complete line of portables. Give them some time, we all now the switch is going to be an incremental process, I'm expecting about a year without a small PowerBook.

Anthem

2005-11-05, 23:30

Exactly.

I'm hoping this Intel switch signals an end to the practice of artificial crippling of their hardware.

I'm with you here. DVI, spanning, and FW800 are great technologies. They should roll them out across the board... it gives them an advantage over other similarly-priced laptops.

I really think it makes sense to merge the lines. As you say, the iBook had to be crippled to keep from overpowering the powerbook. It would be better for everyone if we merged the lines and then had a more rapid upgrade cycle... say a refresh every 6 months.

Anthem

2005-11-05, 23:33

Robo

2005-11-05, 23:44

Exactly. If people would stop freaking out, they'll realize they may very well get something BETTER (smaller, lighter AND more powerful!) than their beloved 12" PowerBook.
;)

I don't get your logic.

Yes, the next-generation iBook will probably be better than the current generation 12" Powerbook. So? The next-generation 12" Powerbook, if we saw one, would be more powerful still. You can't just say that if the next-generation iBook is more powerful than the current-generation 12" Powerbook, they should not make a next-generation 12" Powerbook. The current iBook is more powerful than the original Powerbook. Should they just stop making the Powerbook, because eventually, the iBook will be more powerful?

pscates2.0

2005-11-06, 06:40

I'm not saying they should, or shouldn't, do this or that. I'm just reading the report, which mentions there's no sign of the 12" and saying "well, it overlapped with the iBook so much...maybe Apple - because of its size - couldn't make it the feature-packed performer of the other two larger ones".

If the 12" had been like the 15" and 17" all along, I wouldn't think that. I'd naturally assume it was along for the ride (and it may still be...rumors aren't 100% accurate, you know). But, from the get-go, it was always below the other two: in processor, RAM, graphics, no lighted keyboard, no PC slot, no FireWire 800.

Worry less about my "logic", and think about what you're going to buy at some point.

:)

And I agree with the guy above. "Starbook" has a distinct Mattel ring to it.

:p

shell, you have your PowerBook data a bit off: the 15" was the sole G4-based PowerBook, correct. Until January 2003, when the 17" and 12" were released the same day. In fact, the 17" was announced first. That was the big news, the first 17" notebook and all. The "one more thing" was a few moments afterwards, when Steve when the OTHER way, and unveiled the 12", to everyone's delight.

The 15" remained with its two-year-old Titanium design (and didn't match the look/design of the two new models) until that following September at the Paris Expo, where the 15" aluminum was finally rolled out, and the 12" and 17" got their first updates (Rev. B).

That was the only "staggering": the nine months between the 12"/17" unveiling, and the 15" eventually following their design.

SonOfSylvanus

2005-11-06, 07:13

I really think it makes sense to merge the lines. As you say, the iBook had to be crippled to keep from overpowering the powerbook. It would be better for everyone if we merged the lines and then had a more rapid upgrade cycle... say a refresh every 6 months.

Steve: "The iBook was our most successful notebook computer. As of today, we are no longer selling it..."

;)

pscates2.0

2005-11-06, 07:24

He did it with the iPod mini! :D

"This has been an unbelievable seller, our most popular iPod...an iconic product, and we've sold bazillions. But today, we're saying 'screw it!'...I'd like to show you what I've got in my pocket, that small little pocket inside the big main one...".

Mugge

2005-11-06, 08:17

Well, the exact measurements doesn't matter to me. What does matter is that I can buy a small yet powerfull <something>Book from Apple that does about the same as the current 12".

I really like the size of my 12" iBook, and now that it has proven to me that Mac's are superior to PC's. I'm willing to pony up more $$$ for my next mac, when the time for that comes, but I'd like to keep it the same size.

And no pscates2.0. I'm not going to get at f***ing Vaio! :p

Dave Hagan

2005-11-06, 08:25

They could be all PowerBooks. A PowerBook for the consumer. A PowerBook Pro for the professional.

Anthem

2005-11-06, 08:57

They could be all PowerBooks. A PowerBook for the consumer. A PowerBook Pro for the professional.

Why have two lines at all? Merge the lines, bring your best features to both lines, and avoid having to cripple one line to keep it from eating the other line.

Dave Hagan

2005-11-06, 11:15

For Apple's purposes, having both a pro and a consumer line help market their products to specific types of people.

pscates2.0

2005-11-06, 11:24

Yeah, I think they need to keep that distinction.

However, maybe now with this Intel stuff, the PowerBooks can really soar (like they're supposed to, and like their prices suggest), and then the iBooks can also really step up a notch or two...because they won't have to be crippled to avoid stepping on the PowerBooks (which, frankly, hit the performance ceiling about a year or so ago).

:(

Take off the restrictor plates and let 'em fly! I'm very excited about the possibilities.

An iBook that is more like today's PowerBook. And a PowerBook that is like nothing we've ever experienced before in a Mac laptop.

Bring. It. On.

defaultmike

2005-11-06, 12:22

I'm a Graphic Designer / Art Director who's been working with macs for 6 years now. I currently own 2, a G5 Dual 2.0GHz (rev a.) and a 1.2GHz G4 ibook 12". I have used both quite a bit. My tower is my main computer for designing, and the ibook's for web, typing, and downloading stuff.

At times, I have even used my ibook for designing (when my tower had a HDD problem). To me, when I heard that Apple might be discontinuing the 12" powerbook, it made total and complete sense.

Why? Because no designer in their right mind would use a 12" monitor to work in... unless you're a web designer and web designers don't need power at all, so an iBook would totally suit a web designer.

The way I see it, by killing the 12" powerbook, apple will be able to turn the 12" iBook intoa better machine, they'll be able to uncripple some basic functions that should be there, like spanning, and putting a better GPU in there. The people who need real power, more often than not also need a bigger screen.

I think that this 13" ibook will be a laptop that if it were created today, would be more powerful than an iBook, but not as powerful as the 12" powerbook though.

ohyeah, expect the one more thing there to be a 10" ibook, I'd most def. expect either that for maximum portability, or perhaps an "internet tablet" similar to the Nokia 770.

out

Dave Hagan

2005-11-06, 14:40

I think the clues about what intends to do in the future are already evident in so many places.

For example, no upgrade to the PowerBook 12 other than to make SD standard was such a clue. I think it could mean good things.

For example, it could mean that with the outster of the low-end PowerBook, Apple may be moving into territory where it can reduce the price of the 15. How about a 15-inch PowerBook for $1,599 or *gasp* $1,499? How about a 13.3-inch widescreen iBook for $999? A 13.3-inch widescreen iBook that can do more than the PowerBook 12 could ever accomplish? This is where I think we're heading.

nmkramer

2005-11-06, 14:58

It should come as no surprise that Apple chief executive Steve Jobs is reportedly leading the charge, with his heart set on making 2006 the next 1984.

Uh oh... Steve Jobs = Big Brother :lol:

Dave Hagan

2005-11-06, 17:26

Oh, I can hear Steve now.... Ahhh, a little snippet:

"There is one more thing...

"Although it doesn't seem like that long ago, it's been five years since Apple launched the groundbreaking PowerBook G4.

(Steve shows Titanium PowerBook G4 commercial.)

"It was spectacular then, and it still is. The Titanium PowerBook's size, weight, thinness, and beauty are unrivaled by a lot of PC notebook makers today. Some people have still yet to get it (slide of Dell notebook).

"And three years ago, also at this very show, we introduced the world's first 17-inch notebook.

"Now if you look at the percentage of desktops we sell to the percentage of portables we sell, we sell more notebooks than we do desktops. And this isn't a trend exclusive to Apple. We're seeing it across the industry.

"At this point, I know what a lot of are thinking � Where's the G5 in my PowerBook? I know you all have been waiting for a G5 in your PowerBooks. So what's the problem? Well the G5 for all of it's super-fast speed is a very power hungry, very hot chip. It's still too hot to stuff into a one inch thick notebook. And a look at IBM's roadmap doesn't bode well for a suitable notebook G5 processor any time soon.

"But we foresaw this problem with IBM's roadmap in trying solving this dilemma. And as I just said, notebooks are a very important piece of the puzzle in the industry and especially at Apple. So in June of last year, at our developer's conference, we announced our transition to processors from Intel because we want to make the best products for our customers.

"So with that, today Apple is introducing our very first Mac with Intel processors. And it's a 15-inch PowerBook!

(Crowd reaction)

"Before I get into the details, when you look at the roadmaps, we looked at what are we going to get out of the processor for the energy that powers them? Well, we have this thing called performance per watt. And we saw that while IBM had 15 units of performance per watt looking forward, Intel's roadmap was at 70. So this pretty much told us what we needed to do. Again, we want to make the best products for our customers moving forward.

"So how where we at Apple going to move forward? I mean we just got through transitioning from OS 9 to OS X, things are great. What were we thinking? How were we going to make OS X now scream on a new architecture all about all of those applications that would need to be ported?

"Well, as you also may have heard, when we launched OS X five years ago, it led this secret double life. One of the design goals for all of our OS X projects is that it had to run on Intel processors...just in case. So what about the apps?

"Back in June, when we announced a transition from PowerPC to Intel processors, we started leasing to our developers special Intel boxes that we put together in a Power Mac enclosure so that our developers could get a head start and port their apps to work natively on Intel processors. Essentially, what our developers create what's called a universal binary. A universal binary is an application that contains the code to run on both PowerPC architectures and Intel architectures. No one said it was going to be a piece of cake. But thankfully it has gone extremely well, and we'll talk more about this in a minute.

"What about those developers who aren't done porting their application yet? Well we have this special translation technology that we call Rosetta, that on the fly coverts the old app to work on Intel processors. It's great and it's seamless, and I would now like to give you a demo. As a matter of fact, the system I have been using all morning is one of those Intel Developer boxes!

(Demo)

"So that's Mac OS X screaming on Intel processors. See how seamlessly PowerPC apps run on OS X? Keep in mind that the developer box I just demoed on is a Pentium 4 3.6 GHz processor.

"How does that rank with the processor we're putting in the new PowerBook and, more importantly, how does it rank with the PowerPC G4 that it will replace?

"Well, as you know, Intel is at the forefront of microprocessor technology. They have produced the Pentium M processor which has been a great success for them. The Pentium M is a very efficient processor. It runs cool, performs extremely well for mobile applications, and it doesn't consume a lot of power. But there's more.

"Intel is now ready to ship new Pentium M processors with dual cores. By the way, Intel loves code names too. We have Tiger. They have Yonah. And Yonah is the new fully featured dual-core Pentium M processor at the heart of the next PowerBook. What are dual-core processors? Dual cores are basically like having dual processors. We are shipping dual core G5s in our current line up of Power Macs.

"And like our Power Mac G5s, Intel's dual cores enhance the performance of the computer by having two processor in a space traditionally occupied by one. It's a more efficient design. What have dual core G5s done for the Power Macs? Well look at these performance results. On even our low-end dual Power Mac G5, the dual-core processor outperforms the dual processor single core model it replaced.

"The same thing holds true for the Pentium M. Look at these results. The dual core Pentium M is more than twice as fast as the single core processor version of the Pentum M. All the while using new process technology that makes the processor run cool and efficient and is so much more suitable for mobile applications that the G5 will ever be.

"Speaking of stacking up, how does it stack up? Well we'd thought we'd bring Phil Schiller on stage to do a little comparison

(Crowd reaction)

Phil: "Steve, I never thought I would be doing this."

(Bake off between Intel, PowerPC G4, and PowerPC G5 systems).

"As you can see this system screams. So what else does this new PowerBook have?

"Well as with every PowerBook that we have designed, the screen is the next single most important aspect of performance. Our PowerBooks have one of the best displays in the industry. But today we're also introducing our new display technology. And it blows the competition away, big time. Inside of every Intel PowerBook comes a new screen with LED technology.

"Now what is LED technology and what does LED stand for? Light Emitting Diode. You have seen these before. You may even be wearing a watch with that uses an LED to display time. Conventional LCD displays use what's called a backlight. The screen is backlit from a cold cathode fluorescent light. These backlights are the second biggest consumption of power in a notebook. And how is LED technology different? LEDs use so much less power and have better a lifetime of use. If you take a look at some of the new cars, they are starting to use LED taillights. Even traffic signals are being converted to LEDs to save energy and reduce maintenance costs.

"By using LEDs for backlighting the display, we can achieve a more uniform backlight and we can also provide users with a more power efficient and longer lasting display. Traditional backlights using cold cathode fluorescent bulbs lose intensity over time and this means that your display gets darker. LEDs don't.

"Also, Apple's LCD panel is greatly improved. In LCDs, there's other factors that are attributable to performance beside the backlight � such are response time, pixel pitch, and viewing angle. Our new 15-inch PowerBook almost bests our 30-inch Cinema Display, the best panel in the industry. It has a typical response time of 14ms. It also has a very good pixel pitch of .25 mm and a wide 185� viewing angle.

"With all of these efficiencies, battery life is greatly improved. 8 hours on a single charge. In full use, and at full power this works out to be about two and a half DVD movies if you have a really long plane flight.

(crowd reaction)

"So what does this thing look like?"

julesstoop

2005-11-06, 17:36

Probably somewhat, more or less, like a PowerBook. :P

Robo

2005-11-06, 21:02

And I agree with the guy above. "Starbook" has a distinct Mattel ring to it.

:p

I know you were joking, but people trash on the name alot. I'm not saying it's a good name or a bad name or whatever, but I don't get how people use that as an argument against my opinion. I mean, it's not like Apple would actually use it. It's just a "verbalized" way of saying *book. Get it? It's not meant to be a real name. (Although, I've grown to like it.)

As far as sounding Mattel-like...is "Powerbook" really any better? We're all used to the sound of it, but that doesn't mean it also wouldn't fit right between Power Rangers and Power Wheels. ;)

Reid

2005-11-06, 21:16

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I never got the "*Book" reference until you just clarified it. Anyway, I get it now... but I don't really think they need to come up with a third line of laptops.

Whatever the selection of screen sizes, you can be fairly certain that Apple's next generation laptops will be faster, more feature-filled, and thinner than anything we've seen before. They just love to break those records--look at the latest iPods. Not only did they manage to cram in a bigger, brighter screen and video playback capabilities, they did it in a fraction of the space.

And, for the record, I don't think they'll have any problem fitting an iSight into the bezel above the screen. Look at the Motorola RAZR for proof; it has a camera built in, and even when folded closed it's about the same thickness an iBook's lid.

pscates2.0

2005-11-06, 21:53

If Apple comes out with a THIRD laptop line, I'll buy the entire joint a round... :err:

That's just a silly notion, and really unnecessary. Creating a solution where a problem doesn't exist, IMO.

Robo

2005-11-06, 21:56

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I never got the "*Book" reference until you just clarified it. Anyway, I get it now... but I don't really think they need to come up with a third line of laptops.

I normally clarify, as I normally make a longer post detailing what I mean by a small "prosumer" notebook, but I guess this time I neglected to. (It's hardly the first time I've used the name of my mock-up as shorthand for "small, mobility-minded prosumer notebook.") :D

I'll stop using the name, since apparently you all hate it so much. "Powerbook M" it is...how boring. (And if Apple actually made a third line, I'm sure they'd want to make it clear that it was an all-new line, and not a lamer Powerbook, as the 12" is.)

Robo

2005-11-06, 21:58

If Apple comes out with a THIRD laptop line, I'll buy the entire joint a round... :err:

That's just a silly notion, and really unnecessary. Creating a solution where a problem doesn't exist, IMO.

Some would argue that the 12" Powerbook is already that "third line" in all but name, anyway. I think we're all agreed that it certainly isn't a "true" Powerbook...

L'Angelo Misterioso

2005-11-06, 21:59

I'm glad the iSight is centered in the upper bezel - it just seems like the most logical place for it. Placing it in the hidge is weird.

Placing it anywhere but the hinge would be retarded.

Think about when you are using a laptop and it's open. If the camera were placed above the screen it would 99% of the time be pointing at your forehead or higher. If it were placed in the hinge it would be pointing right at your face looking down at the laptop screen. Laptop screens are very rarely at eye level like desktop displays.

pscates2.0

2005-11-06, 22:15

I'm pretty sure "hinge" was erroneously used earlier instead of "latch", as in that top part of the screen, L'Angelo Misterioso.

Those patent drawings clearly describe - and show - the camera design up in the latch area, ABOVE the display...just as it is on the new iMac G5.

I can think of no more stupid place for a camera than the hinge area, BELOW the screen, down where the display joins the body. Talk about "looking up your nose"...

That goes against one of Steve's stated strengths of the iSight (compared to lots of other webcams), in that it's eye level, and you're looking into it and it gives a more natural, conversational appearance. It's not far below your head, looking up at your chin and nostrils, nor is it off to one side, and the other person is seeing your face in 3/4 view, etc.

:err:

For the record, I'm on my PowerBook right now and the area above the display is DIRECTLY in front of my eye/nose area...in other words, perfectly placed to capture my mug. If there was a camera there, it would get a great shot right now. If there was a camera down in the "hinge" area, there's a good chance that my hands/knuckles would actually obscure some of the views, depending on what I'm typing. In fact, if there was a camera mounted in this hinge area right now, all it would catch is my adam's apple and chest area, I'm afraid.

Real useful...

:\

I'm pretty sure, given a choice, that the entire planet would choose "above the display, only an inch or two below where a MOUNTED FireWire iSight would perch" (as opposed to the hinge area) for the location of a built-in iSight.

:D

You're right that laptop screens are usually well below eye level. BUT they can also tilt back more to a comfortable angle, to where it feels natural...the angle of the screen in relation to my line of sight. I don't think anyone truly uses their iBook or PowerBook in a true "L" position, where the display is standing a perfect 90 degrees from the body/keyboard part of the laptop. Who does that? You tilt it back to where it's parallel to your face, based on how you're sitting, your height, your desk height, etc.

At that point, a camera mounted above the display makes all the sense in the world. Just like it does on the iMac G5. It's less about the height than it is about the angle...

Reid

2005-11-06, 23:18

Maciej

2005-11-07, 01:02

Sony actually had bezel-mounted cameras a couple of years ago on the Vaio TR series. IIRC, they could actually flip 180 degrees to adjust the angle, or even take a picture of someone sitting across the table from you, for example.

You recall correctly, however I do not remember how well the thing actually did its job.

I'm hesitant to go either way. I'm leaning toward what Paul said, simply because it common practice right now - which probably means its right. However, I also think I do a lot of reading at the bottom of my screen, IE my head is tilted down. But thats just at the forums, all of my iChats etc are at the top.

Paul is right. :)

BenP

2005-11-07, 06:55

My dad has the Vaio but never used the camera. I'll see if I can try it out next time I'm at home.

Roland

2005-11-07, 07:27

I wouldn't be suprised if the the iBook went Intel before the Powerbook.

I've got a mac mini recently, my first mac, and I just bought it to try out Mac OS X before investing in a Powerbook and I am really suprised that it can actually handle most of the stuff I do. It runs Photoshop and Ableton Live without a problem, granded it could be faster, but it's working.

Computers are getting faster and faster by the day and if I were to get a Desktop Apple machine right now, there would be no reason for me to get a PowerMac. If my mini can handle photoshop and Ableton Live, then I am sure an iMac would have no problems with the Adobe Package, Live and even 3d stuff.

Those Quads are nice, but I really wouldn't put it do use although I am using apps from the "creative field".

A lot of people get powerbooks for stuff that really isn't that "pro" and kind of look down at the iBooks. So I guess Apple is going to introduce a newly designed iBook (in black and white) and will make the Powerbook (once the chips are ready) truly Pro.

Like I said.. I don't need a Quad PowerMac and if they bump the Powerbook (once Intel chips are here), I probably won't need a Powerbook.

It's just my guess, but I really think that Apple wants to put the iMac and the iBook in the frontspot and the Powerline should be really only for people who do heavy duty work.

I am certainly not one of them

pscates2.0

2005-11-07, 09:33

...and most people - myself included - aren't. :)

Computers are getting so capable and powerful now. It's amazing what Apple sells for their "consumer" stuff, compared to a few years ago! I always chuckle when someone is acting like they need a tricked-out "G5 or nothing!" for DTP or print-based graphic design.

Of COURSE the "iMac would have no problems with the Adobe Package, Live and even 3d stuff". It's got a 2.0GHz G5 in it, for crying out loud!

What were people using just 2-4 years ago, for this type of work? 400MHz-1.42GHz G4 Sawtooth, Quicksilver and MDD G4 towers, along with some blue and white G3 towers (and even some older beige ones, I'm sure), and assorted G3 and G4 iMacs! And yet, things got done. And looked great. :)

I completely agree that the iStuff more than meets the needs of 88% of the public, even if they don't know it. ;)

They've just had specs, numbers and buzzwords drilled into their head so much, over the years, that they assume they need the "biggest, baddest thing out there", even if they're basically only surfing, e-mailing and dabbling in the iLife stuff. If you're doing serious video, music and things of that sort, you probably do need the heavy gear! Get a G5 and pack it with all the drives and cards it can hold...that's what they're for.

But the rest of us? How is an iMac G5 not "up to the task"? :confused:

L'Angelo Misterioso

2005-11-07, 09:52

pscates

most of your arguments against my post actually work against your theory.

in fact, many of them are exactly what I was trying to say. No one uses their laptop in an "L" position. That's part of the reason why it would not work well above the screen. 99% of the people I see using laptops have the screen tilted back. They are not looking dead on with the top. It's actually leaning away from them. A camera above the screen in this case would be shooting either your forehead or the space above your head. Useless. Now, if it were below the screen it would be pointing right at you but at an upward angle. Not very ideal, fortunately, most people's heads are looking at downward angle at a laptop screen. Therefore their face would be almost dead on with the camera.

You said a lot, but nothing to suggest placing the camera above the screen is clearly the best way

edit: after playing around with angles on my laptop there are drawbacks to each placement. unfortunately i think either placement would result in less than satisfying results in everyday usage.

personally i think the external isight is best in a situation like this unless apple figures out a way to put an adjustable camera in the bezel.

Mugge

2005-11-07, 10:00

Gotta agree with you guys there. The strength of these new computers makes it totally unnessiary for ordinary users to go pro. I think the last time I actually hit the RAM wall hard was on my 48 MB PC in 1999.

If the new small iBook, relatively speaking, was to become the new 12" PB, I would have no problem with that.

But I don't think the iBook will go Intel first. Apple is going to try and market the switch as an improvement upon PPC, so this makes the PB the first natural candidate. And the Yonah CPU will do that job nicely. Perhaps the iBook will show up at the same time with perhaps a single core Yonah. But I seriously doubt it will go first. It would be stupid marketing wise.

EDIT:
Looks like Angelo got in before me.
You have a good point Angelo. Maybe the solution is to make the iSight point in slight angle down. Otherwise the thing needs to be able to tilt. I'd prefer tilt, because I often use my screen in entirely different angles; sometimes I have the screen in L shape, and look upon it from almost above, or I recline to almost desk level when I'm feeling lazy.

Mac+

2005-11-07, 10:03

I'm actually really looking forward to see Live on the Macintels since it is not optimised for altivec. It should be a real treat. :smokey:

But, with regard to the "what were poeple using just 2-4 years ago" question, I agree that the processors from a few years ago are still quite capapble.

From my experience (TiPB 550MHz), there are two limiting factors that might relate to why people want the biggest and baddest PM they can afford. Essentially it's a combination of the slow RAM (and current difficulty in being able to get it easily over here now) and the non upgradable, non Quartz-Extreme capable graphics card. At the time, they were OK (not great), but now with the demands of Tiger and the fact that I find myself multi-tasking with more apps open than when I originally started, my lack of RAM and slow graphics card are a frustration at times.

In this respect I can understand folks wanting to buy a Mac that will service their needs for a long time ... and the amount of RAM slots, as well as the ability to upgrade the graphics card on a PM makes them a viable proposition. As for being able to handle what they are going to throw at them now, well, sure an iMac would do the job, but in terms of longevity and mileage for their dollars, the PM is probably a better deal. :\

Mac+

2005-11-07, 10:05

personally i think the external isight is best in a situation like this unless apple figures out a way to put an adjustable camera in the bezel.I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of rotatability (is that a word? :err: ) in the latch camera idea. I wouldn't expect it to be fixed - there might be some degree of up/down field of view to play with.

Mugge

2005-11-07, 10:10

pscates2.0

2005-11-07, 10:13

personally i think the external isight is best in a situation like this unless apple figures out a way to put an adjustable camera in the bezel.

Those patent drawings seemed to show it in some sort of "socket" type of setting. I know that's not how it came to be in the iMac, but it looked like something that could be "pointed".

Although it is an old patent drawing, and things do change and get refined. All these Apple patent drawings are just rough guidelines, to show the idea/concept. The real thing comes out, and is much nicer and more slick than we would've imagined (remember those articulating chrome arm drawings for the iMac G4? Real life was a HUGE improvment).

:)

In any case, if it's between the hinge (below the display) or the latch (above the screen), you know damn well where it's going to go, and where most people would expect it. And it ain't the hinge, looking up your nostrils...

:p

I'm sure of two things: a) the PowerBook camera will be pretty much like the iMac one, and b) it'll work just fine and we'll all somehow "figure it out". And it'll be such a non-issue that it'll be funny we even had to seriously discuss it.

Maybe it means we tilt our lids back 1/2" less when we want to use iChat or play with Photo Booth? That doesn't strike me as anything drastic or life-altering...especially when 99% of us aren't going to have the camera turned on 24/7 anyway. I tilt my differently all the time, based on how/where I'm sitting and what I'm working on. Those PowerBook/iBook displays do tilt back and forth a pretty good bit, you know...I'm sure we could all take 15-20 seconds to learn where to set it for best use.

Think we can all agree on THAT? The last two paragraphs? :D

Mac+

2005-11-07, 10:28

Generally speaking, it's not economically efficient to buy an expensive machine, just for the sake of longevity. There is no such thing as "future-proofing".

PCI cards have done a lot for my PC, but with laptops I think it's a lost cause.Well, part of the expense lies in the fact that you also get 4 higher clocked processors as opposed to just one! But, I wasn't talking about "future proofing" - we all know that with technological advances that will never happen. I was simply positing an idea as to why some folks might lust after the PowerMacs as opposed to the all-in-ones (and that goes for the Mac mini and portable range as well).

And that last sentence makes my point - the ability of PCI (now PCIe) cards adds to the value of the PM. iMac, iBook, PowerBook ... not an option.

L'Angelo Misterioso

2005-11-07, 10:36

Think we can all agree on THAT? The last two paragraphs? :D

kind of. I still think a fixed camera in the hinge would work better in more situations than one above the screen.

If you have a laptop just give it a shot, play around with it on your lap, at your desk, in normal usage. In my observations, the hinge camera would actually show my face more often than one above the screen.

Maciej

2005-11-07, 10:37

Just because the iSight is in the top of the bezel doesn't mean its not angled slightly down toward your face. To put that in another way, the shooting angle of the camera doesn't necessarily have to be perpendicular to the screen. Thus it really wouldn't be too much of a problem to make it catch the users face from the top of the screen.

From the bottom however, I feel that it would be a funny perspective, like all those TV shows where theres a camera coming off of dude's chest - this would cause huge chin, ie. funny look.

Edit, also if the camera was in the bottom hinge, small adjustments on the viewing angle of the screen would make a huge difference in the bottom, aka - there would be a very small sweet spot.

Mugge

2005-11-07, 10:55

And that last sentence makes my point - the ability of PCI (now PCIe) cards adds to the value of the PM. iMac, iBook, PowerBook ... not an option.

I totally agree :)

EDIT:
My personal rule is; to try and look two years into the future and ask myself if the machine I'm looking at will be capable of serving my needs for that length of time. Anything more is most likely just a waste of money.

Reid

2005-11-07, 12:39

Maybe it means we tilt our lids back 1/2" less when we want to use iChat or play with Photo Booth?

I think you nailed it there. Why build in extra hinges and rotatability when it's already there? Small adjustments to the position of the display will make it perfectly usable for an iChat conversation, or a quick PhotoBooth session. It's not like these cameras are meant to be used for sweeping panoramic shots of the Grand Canyon or anything.

Just because the iSight is in the top of the bezel doesn't mean its not angled slightly down toward your face.

Just what kind of position are you guys using your laptops in? Unless you're lying flat on your back with the thing propped on your stomach, I can't understand why you'd need to angle the camera down in order to point it at your face.

Placing the camera at the top of the screen bezel gives it a pretty wide range of adjustment. As long as the display is pointed straight at your face, so is the camera... that's how it works with the iMac. (EDIT: Maybe that's exactly what Maciej was saying?) Putting it in the hinge decreases that range dramatically, and virtually guarantees a constant up-the-nostril vantage point. I don't know, maybe some people like nose hair...

pscates2.0

2005-11-07, 13:08

THANK you.

I think it's a bunch of hubbub and handwringing over nothing. And to actually entertain the idea that such a thing would be anywhere BUT the top of the display is silly. Sorry, it just is.

:)

Maciej

2005-11-07, 13:10

Just what kind of position are you guys using your laptops in? Unless you're lying flat on your back with the thing propped on your stomach, I can't understand why you'd need to angle the camera down in order to point it at your face.

I agree, whats why I don't think that the camera would be shooting over your head - however if that was the case, it would be easy to correct by angling the camera a little down.

Placing the camera at the top of the screen bezel gives it a pretty wide range of adjustment. As long as the display is pointed straight at your face, so is the camera... that's how it works with the iMac. (EDIT: Maybe that's exactly what Maciej was saying?) Putting it in the hinge decreases that range dramatically, and virtually guarantees a constant up-the-nostril vantage point. I don't know, maybe some people like nose hair...

Couldn't agree more - and that is what I was trying to say, thanks for clarifying. :) The hinge is just destined for trouble.

Reid

2005-11-07, 13:20

On the other hand, if you could hide a camera stealthily inside the Apple logo on the back of the lid, it would be great for corporate espionage.

pscates2.0

2005-11-07, 14:20

Robo

2005-11-07, 14:31

:lol:

Now that our iSight discussion is hopefully settled for the most part...should we get back on topic?

If an Intel Powerbook does bow in January, I'll feel a little bad for buying my iMac now. I'll admit it.

Well, maybe not. If the Intel Powerbook doesn't come in the small size, or if that small size doesn't have all the goodies of the larger sizes, I won't feel bad at all, because there's no way I would have been able to shell out $1,999 for the 15" Powerbook in January.

Maybe I'll sell my iMac (if I could bring myself to sell my first Mac) and pick one up as a graduation present for myself? My parents would probably think I was unwise (especially since they're stuck in the PC mindset, where computers have an extremely low resale value), but on the same note, my mom did want me to have a notebook for college. (My dad kept on saying that a desktop would do - he's the frugal one in the family. :D)

Oh, and I didn't mention this before, but...

When I was at the Apple Store, when my parents walked away to discuss helping me with the iMac, the Apple rep and I started talking. He mentioned how he new my parents would never have gone for the Powerbook - not that I'd want the 12" Powerbook in its current state, anyway - and then he mentioned the Intel transition in a hushed tone. (He already knew that I was a big Apple fan - my mom mentioned how I watched all things Apple "like a hawk" - but it still shocked me a bit.)

I know he didn't know any more than we do, but he was very sure that the Powerbook would go Intel this summer or before (in other words, that it would be the first to go Intel). He mentioned that when the Intel Powerbook came out, the prices on the G4 Powerbooks would obviously drop, and maybe I could get one of them, or else save up for the new ones. This was all in a "next summer, for a college computer" context.

I'm sure Apple reps don't normally talk about the Intel transition, no? But he already knew I knew about it all, so...

Again, I know that he doesn't know any better than any of us, but it was interesting that he brought it up. It wasn't even like I pinned him with questions or anything.

Robo

2005-11-07, 14:37

Now that we've ironed all THAT out... :p

Does it seem weird that there's talk of the PowerBook getting this, but not the iBook? The consumer desktop - the iMac - has it. If anything, I would've bet the iBook (over the PowerBook) would have such a family-friendly, fun and consumer-oriented feature.

:confused:

Of course, the iBook may very well be getting (these are all just rumors, and nothing is 100% certain).

Just struck me as odd...jumping from the iMac to the PowerBook.

I agree. The Powerbook seems to be going Intel several months sooner, so it makes sense that we would know more about it. I think the iBook will get an iSight, too.

But you never know - it would be a way to differentiate the Powerbook and the iBook (or the iBook and a mid-range, compact prosumer notebook ;)).

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the iMac is a "consumer" Mac. It really doesn't fit in a specific spot in the Mac matrix = as an AIO, it's kinda off in it's own little world. I would call it a prosumer Mac, if anything - if we saw a headless desktop with the same specs, it would be a prosumer model.

So maybe we shouldn't be too quick to assume that the iBook would get one. That said, I believe it will - I don't think that Apple will see this as a "consumer model/pro model" factor, but a "Mac/PC" factor. I think an integrated iSight in every monitor, AIO, or notebook - even in the $999 iBook - will simply be one of the things that makes a Mac a Mac.

Elysium

2005-11-07, 15:33

I would believe that an iSight camera will be incorporated into all displays (iMac, iBook, PowerBook, and stand-alone displays) fairly soon (e.g. next update cycle). Based on several reasons:

Apple needs an extra (sort of wow) special feature to further differentiate their product line from the generic PC world (e.g. non-specialty models).
The iMac is the first machine ("consumer"- more on this below) to go this route, suggesting that it'll be implemented into the iBooks as an additional selling point for the average consumer.
Now how can a feature be implemented into the iBooks and not the PowerBooks; rather counterintuitive concerning the relative price points and feature sets? Hence, the need to implement it into the PowerBooks as well.
Lastly, Apple needs to cover the display line to cover the mini and PowerMac users considering the feature would already be crossing main computer categories (desktop vs. laptop).

The placement of the camera in the bezel above the display is probably the most cost-effective way to fix the camera with a wide range of viewing angles.

Now, concerning the iMac. The previous iMacs were firmly in the more "consumerish" camp. However, the new models with the updated G5 processor, DDR2 memory, and PCIe graphics with 128 mb of VRAM pushes the iMac as a more prosumer oriented machine. This poses some real interesting questions about what is really going on with the mini......

But back to updated iBooks...

The main problems I have had with the iBook design are the displays, the graphics, and look (I have hated the white look on all product lines for a long time now :devil: ). I would love to have a new iBook for my field work to download data from data loggers. I would love to see a *sharper* 13" widescreen display, faster memory, and the ability to upgrade to 128 MB graphics. Plus make it black with a glowing white Apple logo on the back (there is really no need for this to restricted to just the PowerBooks).

pscates2.0

2005-11-07, 15:38

I believe the iBook logos glow too, don't they? I was sure they did. My friend has one...I'm sure I've seen that.

:confused:

The iBook can't get those features in your final paragraph until the PowerBook goes up in specs/performance. Hopefully that's soon! As in "3-5 months soon".

:)

I'm not sure if the iBook will get 128MB graphics. But, then again, if they enable spanning and so forth, maybe so? At least down the road. Most would be happy if they got 64MB right now.

PB PM

2005-11-07, 15:40

The Apple logo on the ibook does glow... has since the ibook G3 dual USB.

Elysium

2005-11-07, 15:45

Maybe, it's just because of the more noticeable contrast on the PowerBook vs the iBook that makes me not see it...

Again... White teh sucks... :lol:

Robo

2005-11-07, 15:53

Dazabrit

2005-11-07, 16:54

I guess there could be a shake-up in the line-up and how we distinguish the Apple product lines. iBook could be closely related to the Mac Mini somehow so we have a low cost consumer range (maybe iBook price reduced slightly). The price point for the PowerBook would also be reduced so it would fit into the ever-so-catchy Pro-sumer role along with the iMac. The PowerBook is still getting thinner (so say the reports) which shows Apple aren't really focusing on raw power with their portable line-up (and for good reason, I dont want to lug around a portable powermac). The PowerMac and XServe are the raw power pro line-up (no portables included). I just thought I would add this as a possibility because with increasing performance in all areas of technology; there comes a point where the iMac becomes sufficient for quite a lot of the semi-pro video/design guys out there and so the PowerBook seems to be a closer fit with the iMac. You dont really need the capability of a full on PowerMac/X-Serve on the road so a true-pro portable would now become out of the question. You see what im getting at? lol :)

shell

2005-11-07, 17:01

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the logo lit up by ambient light from the screen? It doesn't really cost anything and it helps differentiate the Mac platform, so I see no reason not to include it in the new notebooks.

Mugge

2005-11-07, 18:00

Dazabrit

2005-11-07, 18:06

I don't agree entirely Dazabrit.

The PB's have to be better than their PC counterparts, thats the whole idea of Apple and that mobile studio thing. Raw power, sleek and expensive, just like the finest sports cars or fighter planes.

And now that it looks like the iBook is going to be the only option in the small 13" size, there is really no reason not to pull out all the stops on it too. Well, emphasis price/performance should still be there, but no more firmware crippling.

F**k cheap! Thats not what Apple is about :no:

If I wan't cheap, I'll get a second-hand Mac. And I'll still have a better computer than those PC things :p

Yeah you're right. I don't disagree on the fact that the new Macs will kick the competition to the dust. But I still think the line-up is somewhat distorted. I completely agree on the firmware crippling too, I think more and more of the Mac community are waking up to the fact that Apple are taking the pi** by crippling your machines with lower speeds/functionality and then simply unlocking some of those crippled features in a later revisions.

Mugge

2005-11-07, 18:10

Ok. I guess we are on the same page anyways then :)

Matsu

2005-11-07, 18:27

I predict a real segment buster...

the iPowerbook Pro :D

IonYz

2005-11-07, 18:33

Why? Because no designer in their right mind would use a 12" monitor to work in... unless you're a web designer and web designers don't need power at all, so an iBook would totally suit a web designer.
What a blanket statement to make. Its funny the graphics artists / art directors I personally know use older Mac gear (akin to the iBook in power, but slower) but the Mac-based web designers use faster machines. Maybe its that Mac browsers feel slower then PC,, or that they are more up on technology or that they need just as much (if not more in some cases) power then graphics artists or art directors.

As a web designer I have several browsers open, ImageReady and Photoshop with several scans of video covers and a few dozen web graphics going between the two, BBEdit with several HTML pages open, and other programs. In a few days (I leave my work Mac on all week) my dock expands across my 1300px CRT, with tons of stuff open and my 1.5 GB or RAM swapping to the disk like crazy. I also have another display for MySQL and certain browsers to preview to declutter my main display.

I don't mean to be an asshat here but I'm not going to say graphic artists don't need power because all they use is Photoshop. They probably do, I have no idea. I take photos, scans, create graphics often, I don't work at print resolution but I run another ancillary stuff that power is needed sure.

12" at 1024px is hard to work on, yeah, but then thats where spanning comes into play doesn't it? This rumor makes Apple to look stupid (can't think of a better word); so they drop the 12" but later on it mentions the 15" will be 20% thinner. So they finally find a way to cramp more power in a smaller place (with Intel parts) and now instead of upgrading the 12" to better match its brothers they drop it?

I hope that iBook 13" includes spanning to mini-DVI and they don't put some celeron equivalent in it to make the PowerBooks look more powerful. Make the lines clear but don't cripple for the sake of it.

pscates2.0

2005-11-07, 18:40

I predict a real segment buster...

the iPowerbook Pro :D

Let me guess: in COLORS? :p

Matsu

2005-11-07, 20:16

just one, an evolution of tangerine, burnt metallic orange with silver accents. I know you want one...

Mac+

2005-11-07, 21:37

I predict a real segment buster...

the iPowerbook Pro :D... to be followed by iPowerBook Pro EXTREME :D

Batman

2005-11-07, 21:54

What a blanket statement to make. Its funny the graphics artists / art directors I personally know use older Mac gear (akin to the iBook in power, but slower) but the Mac-based web designers use faster machines. Maybe its that Mac browsers feel slower then PC,, or that they are more up on technology or that they need just as much (if not more in some cases) power then graphics artists or art directors.

As a web designer I have several browsers open, ImageReady and Photoshop with several scans of video covers and a few dozen web graphics going between the two, BBEdit with several HTML pages open, and other programs. In a few days (I leave my work Mac on all week) my dock expands across my 1300px CRT, with tons of stuff open and my 1.5 GB or RAM swapping to the disk like crazy. I also have another display for MySQL and certain browsers to preview to declutter my main display....

Agreed. My windows machine frequently crashes when I am trying to have Dreamweaver, Fireworks, IE, Opera, Firefox, and MySQL Admin open at the same time. Whoever said that web designers didn't need a powerful system didn't know what they were talking about. Web Desing and Graphic Design tools are major resource hogs on any system (especially if that system only has 512 MB ram :grumble: )

MCQ

2005-11-07, 22:07

I hope that iBook 13" includes spanning to mini-DVI and they don't put some celeron equivalent in it to make the PowerBooks look more powerful. Make the lines clear but don't cripple for the sake of it.

I think they'll get the GPU/DVI/spanning part right, and maybe some of the other hardware... but the iBooks will come with a single-core Yonah (which will end up being marketed as Celeron M). No one's expecting a dual-core Yonah in an iBook are they?

Reid

2005-11-07, 23:42

I like the white, and I think the iBook will probably stay white.

It does need some contrast, though. If you look at the rest of Apple's "white" products, they all have some grey/silver for contrast. (I expect any black Macs to have the same.) I picture the next iBook as having the look of a squished Mac mini: the corners would be rounded when looking down on it, but not from the front, as the top and bottom would be flat. It would have the "silver lining" border, too. I'm not sure whether the logo would light up (it would be nice, but as with the current iBook, there'd be so little contrast it would be hard to see). They could adopt the silver Apple logo of the Mac mini.

That's not far from what the Rev. A white iBooks looked like--the G3, "Dual-USB" models. I happen to have been using one of those daily for the last 4 years, and the inside (band around the middle, wrist rest & display bezel) is much more of a silvery color than the current line. Also, the top and bottom of the case are sheathed in clear acrylic like the new iMacs and iPods (and old iPods, incidentally). Actually, I believe these were the first Apple products to use an acrylic layer over white; several months before the original iPods were introduced.

And yes, the logo lights up. It's quite bright and visible under normal lighting conditions, even against a white background. Overall, it just looks a touch classier than the solid white iBooks of today. Of course, if someone wanted to trade me for a new one, I'd do it in a second. :)

Mugge

2005-11-08, 02:47

I think they'll get the GPU/DVI/spanning part right, and maybe some of the other hardware... but the iBooks will come with a single-core Yonah (which will end up being marketed as Celeron M). No one's expecting a dual-core Yonah in an iBook are they?

I think you are right about that.

Of course I would like to see it with a dual-core, so I could call it the new 12" PB. But I doubt that will happen.

Maybe Apple will get around to releasing a new sort of 12" PB and perhaps a 15" iBook, once they got the rumored laptops in production and got the bugs ironed out.

Robo

2005-11-12, 22:09

AppleInsider is reporting (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1368) that Intel-based iMacs are on track for MWSF alongside Intel Powerbooks. They also say that Intel-based Mac minis are on track for the spring, alongside iBooks, and that the Intel transition should be complete by fall 2006, "several months" (actually, over a year) ahead of schedule.

I don't buy this. I actually expect for the Powerbooks to get upgraded (either to the 7448 or to Intel) in January - the latest refresh was minor, and Apple won't want them sitting at the same clock speed for over a year - but the iMac - which just saw a major facelift in October? No. I'm not sure I buy that Apple will give the iMac an all-new processor without redesigning it...the only time Apple has done that in recent memory was with the iBook G3/G4, but it's not like the iBook that got a G4 inside was the original G3 iBook, and it's not like the transition from G3 to G4 is as large as from a G5 to an Intel processor.

I just can't see Apple giving the iMac a major update in October and then swapping in an all-new processor in January. They would have waited, because they could have waited. None of us expected the iMac to get updated so soon.

I can easily see AI's original prediction of an Intel Powerbook in January with an Intel iBook during the education buying season in the spring. But I doubt the iMac will go Intel nearly as soon, and I'm not sure about the Mac mini, either.

Elysium

2005-11-12, 22:23

Robo

2005-11-12, 22:42

I can see an Powerbook upgrade in January, the recent upgrade was simply a stop-gap upgrade...

But I have been on the consumer going first bandwagon a while now...

Mac mini, Powerbook, and iBook in January... MWSF 06 is going to be a bonafide extravaganza.... :lol:

I wouldn't say "consumer first"...rather, I say "G4 first."

Since the Powerbook is an alledgedly professional product using the "consumer" G4, I'm expecting it to be the first to go. Then the iBook and Mac mini, thaen the iMac, Power Mac, and XServe.

I'd buy AI's story if it didn't have the iMac going Intel in January. That's just stupid.

SonOfSylvanus

2005-11-13, 03:50

I hoped that the iBook and Mac Mini would move to Yonah in Q1 2006 and the PowerBook to Merom in H2 2006. I didn't expect to see either the iMac, PowerMac or Xserve switch to Intel before 2007, TBH.

From Ars (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/idf-israel.ars/2), here is Intel's roadmap:

http://www.sonofsylvanus.homechoice.co.uk/images/intel_roadmap.jpg (http://media.arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/idf-israel.media/idf5.jpg)

The accompanying article (regarding Intel's recent Developer Forum Tour stop-over in Tel Aviv) off-handedly suggests the following about Apple's move to Intel:

Netburst will be history by the end of 2006 and Merom will become the shining star in Intel's constellation (and likely the brains of Apple's first generation of Intel-based machines).
They know nothing that we don't yadda yadda... Just saying...

Robo

2005-11-13, 13:01

I'll mention it again...

I really hope Intel just calls Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest the Pentium 5. Really.

I don't know what else they'd call it (a Pentium M in a desktop seems weird), but knowing Intel, they'll keep the Pentium 4 name, adding only some weird "with XYZ technology" to the end.

Anyway...I've always expected Apple to bypass Yonah and head straight to Merom (the true next-generation chip, and well deserving of the Pentium 5 name) but it apparently isn't as hard to swap out completely different processors with Intel, so it's entirely possible that we could see a Yonah Powerbook at MWSF and a Merom Powerbook at Paris. I know that I'm not expecting January to pass without some form of Powerbook update, whether it be a 7448 or a Yonah.

Dave Hagan

2005-11-13, 17:06

I just hope that the rumored new 15-inch PowerBook uses a different display than the one they are currently using. It needs to be full widescreen. The displays in the new PowerBooks need to blow everyone away, not just a very mediocre upgrade!

pscates2.0

2005-11-13, 17:20

I'm sure it will. I bet it'll go to a more standard 15.4" widescreen, and have a true 16:10 display.

Then again, what do I know...

:p

If all these rumors are accurate (or even close), this is going to be a pretty neat PowerBook...thinner, built-in iSight, probably breaking the 2GHz mark, etc.

Robo

2005-11-13, 20:11

...and black!

:D

I know it's just rumors, but I'm feeling pings of buyer's remorse for my new iMac already...and I haven't even really done anything with it yet!

I knew I should have waited after that lame Powerbook update we saw last month.

Oh well...I still really love my iMac. If the Intel Powerbook does debut in January or the spring, I might sell my iMac in March or so, after I finish editing my film on it (and before it gets upgraded again :devil: ) and then pick up an Intel Powerbook sometime before heading off to college.

It feels weird to think about parting with my iMac already, though. I like it so much...I'm not sure I'd be able to. :D

pscates2.0

2005-11-13, 20:24

Then don't. A new Intel PowerBook won't cause your iMac to suddenly suck, or become useless.

:confused:

The iMac will probably still out-perform it, especially for video stuff (unless Apple really goes balls-out on the PowerBook in 2006).

Dave Hagan

2005-11-13, 20:49

(unless Apple really goes balls-out on the PowerBook in 2006).
Apple has really no other choice than to go balls-out on the new PowerBook. It's been neglected for so long. It has to do Final Cut Studio, and it has to do it really really well. And I bet it will. I don't think they'd put Intel stuff in there if it didn't run better than the G4.

On the iMac that you just bought Robo, it's sweet, isn't it? I got mine a few weeks ago, and I am thoroughly impressed with how this thing runs, even with its 512 MB of stock RAM. Simply incredible.

If the Intel PowerBook comes out in January, I am going to get one for sure.

Robo

2005-11-13, 21:24

On the iMac that you just bought Robo, it's sweet, isn't it? I got mine a few weeks ago, and I am thoroughly impressed with how this thing runs, even with its 512 MB of stock RAM. Simply incredible.

Yeah, I love it.

Here's my dilemma: Software. I'm not sure I want to accumulate a lot of PowerPC software and then buy Intel versions of it later; it might actually make more finanical sense to try and start out on the right foot with Intel.

I know my iMac won't become limp once the Intel Powerbook arrives. But I don't know how smart it would be to keep it around for as long as possible, get tons of PowerPC software for it, and then have to buy Intel versions of everything. Unless the exact same disc will work for Intel and PowerPC... :confused:

I'm totally happy with my iMac, don't get me wrong. It's just what I need to edit my film, which is really the most important thing to me right now. I've fallen in love with GarageBand, and I think I'll pick up a keyboard (and piano tutorial software!) with some Christmas money - gotta compose a soundtrack for my movie, too! I should be able to pick up a videocamera and kit by the end of the year (I might wait until January to pick up Final Cut Express, because it'll probably be upgraded at Macworld and I won't be doing my principle editing until February anyway). The iMac is a godsend, and I'm so glad that my parents helped me out so I wasn't stuck with a Mac mini (as cute as they are).

But take my software concerns, and then throw in the fact that I do like mobility - and am heading off to college next fall - and maybe you could see why I'm thinking I might "trade up" to a Powerbook sooner than I would normally upgrade a computer.

EDIT: And I think Apple will go balls-out with the new Powerbook, too. They need to.

Anthem

2005-11-13, 21:34

I know my iMac won't become limp once the Intel Powerbook arrives. But I don't know how smart it would be to keep it around for as long as possible, get tons of PowerPC software for it, and then have to buy Intel versions of everything. Unless the exact same disc will work for Intel and PowerPC... :confused:

It will. Wait for the Intel-enabled software to come out, and it will still run natively on PPC. Google "Apple fat binaries" for more info.

Robo

2005-11-13, 22:22

OK, well that might change things.

runner91786

2005-11-14, 10:25

I'm sure it will. I bet it'll go to a more standard 15.4" widescreen, and have a true 16:10 display.

Then again, what do I know...

TRUE widescreen is a 16:9 ratio, NOT 16:10

pscates2.0

2005-11-14, 11:02

I know that (movies and whatnot).

I should clarify: a 16:10 widescreen as in what the OTHER widescreen Macs have (the 17" and 20" iMacs, 17" PowerBook and Cinema Displays).

Better?

The current 15" is not as wide as the others, ratio-wise. It's 16:11 (or some other number...3:2, 5:4, etc.).

And most 15" widescreen PC laptops I see (online, in stores, in catalogs, etc.) are 15.4 (not Apple's 15.2).

Bryson

2005-11-14, 11:47

Actually, *dons ex-projectionist hat* true widescreen (like many of movies are made) is 1.85:1, which equates to 16:8.5 and a bit....

Cinemascope is 2.35:1. Now that would be a laptop worth seeing....

mammajamma

2005-12-16, 14:33

With all talk about the Mactel iBook, what ever happened to the release of the Mactel PowerBook? I reckon that it makes little sense to release a consumer product first (that will have a faster speed than the current PowerBook G4) without offering something palatable for the professionals. No doubt that they could offer a single core Yonah chip for the Mactel iBook and a dual-core Yonah chip for the Mactel PowerBook. All logic points to a PowerBook release at San Francisco Macworld to me. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

rminkler

2005-12-16, 14:43

Actually, I don't think the single core yonahs are going to be ready for a while - the dual core one is the only one ready on the 6th.

mammajamma

2005-12-16, 15:38

Can you verify this with a link on intel's site or is this hearsay?

Elysium

2005-12-16, 20:22

Here you go... (http://news.com.com/Intel+to+make+single-core+Yonah/2100-1006_3-5843344.html)

rasmits

2005-12-16, 23:52

To be honest, I really hope the Intel thing doesn't happen in January. After thinking about it, I'd rather they wait until more apps are Universal Binary and they've hammered out a few dents in Rosetta. Rosetta just got Altivec support, so I imagine there's a lot of work that still needs to be done.

Apple's known for computers that work, and being 6 months early on something this huge is not going to help. It needs to be flawless, so I'd rather give them the time to make sure of that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really looking forward to the Intel switch, but Rev. A PowerPC products have enough problems, let alone a completely new architecture.

Brave Ulysses

2005-12-17, 00:02

who said it was really 6 months early? no one knows Apple's internal deadlines and goals. they could have been planning on this from the start and just wanted to give a vague date in case something went wrong or to not make people put off sales till january.

I think Apple is on top of things and it will go smoothly. It's kind of a chicken and egg kind of scenario. In order to get developers to release universal binaries they need to make the products available and create demand for them.

I think we'll see at least one Intel product at MacWorld.

Elysium

2005-12-17, 00:21

rasmits

2005-12-17, 01:20

It'll be 6 months until they're obligated to release an Intel Mac. You're right, they're internal schedule could be completely different, but as far as the public is concerned, we have 6 months before we need to worry.

So why not use that time to make sure it goes smoothly? Like I said, Rosetta is still just gaining very important features, and huge apps have yet to be released as Universal Binaries, even the most consumer oriented.

I'd think Apple will first say, "Hey look, we've got [insert 30 app names here] ported to Universal Binaries, we're getting ready, are you?" before they release an Intel machine.

Of course, I could be way wrong, but I'm just saying what I hope will happen. I don't want this to be a rush job.

chucker

2005-12-17, 01:24

A lot of people seem to have a hard time understanding "by June". "By June" means exactly that: come June, at least one machine will be ready. This can mean anything between "several machines will be released over the first half of the year" to "only one machine will be released, and it'll be very close to WWDC".

rasmits

2005-12-17, 01:28

I'm not sure if that was directed towards me, Chucker, but I hope I'm at least making a little bit of sense.

rminkler

2005-12-17, 01:39

Rasmits, when you say that rosetta is only now gaining basic features like Altivec, what features are you thinking of that are not emulated? I'm not sure if Rosetta does opengl, but other than that, it seems to be ready, and based on reports from people running the x86 version of os x, it really does work at 60 or 70 percent of the speed of a native PPC processor...

Brave Ulysses

2005-12-17, 01:41

It'll be 6 months until they're obligated to release an Intel Mac. You're right, they're internal schedule could be completely different, but as far as the public is concerned, we have 6 months before we need to worry.

So why not use that time to make sure it goes smoothly?.

I think despite Apple's success, and sales numbers, a lot of people are holding off purchases and the sooner they release intel machines, especially laptops, the sooner they breakthrough to huge sales numbers.

So, the sooner the better. and the software has been in development inside apple for 5 years. I'm sure it's ready for prime time.

chucker

2005-12-17, 01:55

I'm not sure if that was directed towards me, Chucker, but I hope I'm at least making a little bit of sense.

I originally quoted you in that post but decided to remove the quote before submitting.

It wasn't directed towards you specifically. A lot of people get this wrong, including mainstream media, analysts and all. I just cringe every time I see "Mactels could come a lot earlier than claimed by Apple". As far as I'm concerned, that's a false statement.

rasmits

2005-12-17, 02:04

I think despite Apple's success, and sales numbers, a lot of people are holding off purchases and the sooner they release intel machines, especially laptops, the sooner they breakthrough to huge sales numbers.According to sales numbers, that's not the case. Sales have still been increasing steadily quarter to quarter. The majority of the public doesn't know or care about the Intel switch.

And Chucker, I understand what you mean. I was only stating my hopes that Apple will take advantage of their statement, and release it as late as possible while remaining on schedule. A release now, next month, in 3 months, or 6 months would all still be "on schedule" and be not early or late.

Brave Ulysses

2005-12-17, 02:08

According to sales numbers, that's not the case. Sales have still been increasing steadily quarter to quarter. The majority of the public doesn't know or care about the Intel switch.

according to sales numbers it certainly is the case with the powerbook.

and like i said, right now apple could produce crap and sales would increase. i think you will be shocked at just how large an increase the intel machines will bring. i honestly see apple moving 1.5 million - 2 million computers a quarter within the next year or so.

intlplby

2005-12-17, 03:56

maybe they'll push them out the door half baked just like aperture

chucker

2005-12-17, 12:03

And Chucker, I understand what you mean. I was only stating my hopes that Apple will take advantage of their statement, and release it as late as possible while remaining on schedule. A release now, next month, in 3 months, or 6 months would all still be "on schedule" and be not early or late.

Well, the earlier they release Rev A, the earlier they release Rev B. ;)

Yonzie

2005-12-17, 13:07

I agree with Ulysses.
When announcing the transition, Apple pretty much set themselves up for at least 3-6 months of very slow sales. By introducing the first intel-powered macs WAY early they beat most of the sales drought.
Good marketing at it's best - if it's true that is ;)

MCQ

2005-12-17, 16:39

i honestly see apple moving 1.5 million - 2 million computers a quarter within the next year or so.

That would be very underwhelming IMO. Their current growth rate should get them into that range this coming year anyway, not even taking the Intel switch into account.

Brave Ulysses

2005-12-17, 16:43

That would be very underwhelming IMO. Their current growth rate should get them into that range this coming year anyway, not even taking the Intel switch into account.

are you sure about that? I was just going off my head so I don't know what their exact growth rate is but if they are on pace to have 2 million computers a quarter moved within the next 12 months that's remarkable.

MCQ

2005-12-17, 17:04

are you sure about that? I was just going off my head so I don't know what their exact growth rate is but if they are on pace to have 2 million computers a quarter moved within the next 12 months that's remarkable.

I said within the range, didn't say if they can make the high end of that range.

CPU growth rates for the past 4 Q/Q:

Q105: 25%
Q205: 2%
Q305: 10%
Q405: 5%

Given 20% growth this quarter, and the exact same growth for Q2/Q3/Q4, the numbers work out around ~1.48 mill, 1.51 mill, 1.66 mill, 1.74 mill.

I think Apple can maintain a more consistent 10% Q/Q growth due to iPod halo effect, so 2 million is within the realm of possibility.

Brave Ulysses

2005-12-17, 17:09

considering that, I'm not sure if I could agree with you on being underwhelmed if 2 million is all they reach

patrickatm08

2005-12-25, 21:10

I'm a mobile college student saving up my money for a 12" intel PB. If they don't release one, I'll be sad. I don't want an iBook, I'd like to be able to edit videos, pictures, and other junk on the move. I planned on taking it to class everyday and all around campus. The majority of Apple owners at my school are 12", because they're cheap and portable. Bad move on Apple's part.

userinterface

2005-12-25, 23:04

There won't be intel powerbooks until march, however there will be ibooks and mac minis.

Brave Ulysses

2005-12-26, 00:28

There won't be intel powerbooks until march, however there will be ibooks and mac minis.

I'd see what happens Jan 10th before claiming anything as fact.

DeadMan

2005-12-26, 02:33

i have spent hours to read all the replies...tough (i come from non-english speaking country) but interesting.
this tread is kind of "hot". and i try to ask some qustions about these 5-page replies.
So u were talking about apple's CPU switch and destiny of apple's products, say PB 12", right? someone's opinion: it is kind of third line of production, PB 12" seems not to be "powerful" enough for its name--powerbook?
ok, how do u really deduce that conclusion? i guess u try to make a comparison between PB12' & 15" (17"? MAYBE NOT!)
is it a logic, fair and just way to draw the conclusion? i guess not.
now i intend to state my comparison and my methodology about this comparison:
1. it is not fair to make comparison between PB12' & 15", different price, different market position (i don't know my poor english can be understood...sorry)
2. what does apple really want to do? to make competition between between PB12" & 15"? howabout this one:" apple wants to compete with Dell, HP, Thinkpad(i hate Lenovo), sony, toshiba etc" so when i am thinking PB12", i think i should make comparison between PB12" and maybe Dell's D410/M700, SONY's y18c(this one is old...), or thinkpad X32 (absolutely, this one is weak, 16MB VRam,Crap...i prefer intel's GMA 900)

Detail:
is there any great 12" notebook i have missed, oh maybe iBook 12" (i will discuss it later)

since people who buy apple's notebook are not for large database computing, so Intel's powerful floating computing power, FSB.... is not crucial, what's more, since apple is going to switch CPU to Intel, this problem will be gone soon

then how about video system, it is clearly that as its size--12", PB12" is absolutely the best among 12" laptop, one of my friends' Dell 8300(i cannot remember the model number, kind of old one) uses G-force 5200Go, however this is a 15.4" dell laptop! nearly no other 12" laptop can use such video system, nearly all the others use intel's integrated GMA 900/Graphic Extreme 2. Thinkpad use 16Vram on ATI Mobility Radeon 7500(maybe wrong, but absolutely not beyond 9200), u know even iBook use mobility 9550!

Thinkpad has special Harddisk protection, PB12" as well.
PB12" has almost everything that a 12" laptop is expected to equipped. Maybe one thing that others have and PB12" does not is the great combination: ctrl-alt-del.
So:
apple's 12"PB is really great in conclusion.

Now let's talk about iBook 12", it is not made of metal (the whole coverage, and i cannot name which kind of metal)
the material is important to release of heat and keep system cool, in this case PB is much better.
And PB also gets a stronger protection by its harder coverage(sometimes, i cannot use english to say exactly what i mean )

however, when new iBook comes out, maybe it will be more powerful than current powerbook 12", who knows? ask steve....

PB PM

2005-12-26, 03:35

Detail:
is there any great 12" notebook i have missed, oh maybe iBook 12" (i will discuss it later)

since people who buy apple's notebook are not for large database computing, so Intel's powerful floating computing power, FSB.... is not crucial, what's more, since apple is going to switch CPU to Intel, this problem will be gone soon

then how about video system, it is clearly that as its size--12", PB12" is absolutely the best among 12" laptop, one of my friends' Dell 8300(i cannot remember the model number, kind of old one) uses G-force 5200Go, however this is a 15.4" dell laptop! nearly no other 12" laptop can use such video system, nearly all the others use intel's integrated GMA 900/Graphic Extreme 2. Thinkpad use 16Vram on ATI Mobility Radeon 7500(maybe wrong, but absolutely not beyond 9200), u know even iBook use mobility 9550!

Thinkpad has special Harddisk protection, PB12" as well.
PB12" has almost everything that a 12" laptop is expected to equipped. Maybe one thing that others have and PB12" does not is the great combination: ctrl-alt-del.
So:
apple's 12"PB is really great in conclusion.

Now let's talk about iBook 12", it is not made of metal (the whole coverage, and i cannot name which kind of metal)
the material is important to release of heat and keep system cool, in this case PB is much better.
And PB also gets a stronger protection by its harder coverage(sometimes, i cannot use english to say exactly what i mean )
I agree with you on this. If I had a choice, I would pick the 12" Powerbook over any of those other 12" PC notebooks (not just because they run Windows), and the 12" ibook too. IMO the 12" Powerbook has enough kick in it to go head to head with against the other 12" notebooks out there.