View Full Version : iTunes vs. MSN Music
What can be done to prevent history repeating itself?
Should Apple try to do anything with iTunes or the iPod like:
-iTMS songs being able to play on other mp3 players?
-the iPod being able to play other propietary formats?
I think iPod and iTunes are just fine the way they are- it's available to both Mac and PC users. My only concern is that MS can and will probably operate MSN Music at a loss until iTMS is shut down- I think MS is too proud to lose to Apple on this one.
Apple should connect all the iTMS stores together, so anybody, anywhere can buy any song. Christ, you can already browse the other stores- they're so close to making this a reality. If Apple does that, then they'll really be way ahead of the competition.
You don't have a very good grasp on the legal hurdles involved in the iTMS... They cannot just give everyone access to the store globally. Just impossible unless there is a real shake-up in the RIAA and even then there will have to be massive negotiations... not goona happen.
I don't think Microsoft will be very successful because the RIAA doesn't trust them and will not give them as much flexibility as they have Apple.
Apple should do none of those things and just react to the MS store. If they start to make inroads (which is unlikely) all they have to do is lower the price of the iPod. Problem solved. The only thing that would question their hold is if some other hardware company makes a REAL iPod killer... but such a feat will be near impossible, and even if it is done it will be extremely expensive and will not become a major player.
The iPod is the secret to the iTMS' success, not the other way around. That is why Real et al. are dying to open it up however they can.
BarracksSi
2004-09-01, 23:51
The iTunes-iTMS-iPod integration is already so good, so full of "Of course, that's how it should work!"-ness, it's going to take a Herculean effort for another company to beat it.
Can Microsoft do it? If they were the only company involved, well, maybe they could. However, there are too many hands in the online music process to let them have free rein -- and not many of those hands want to let Microsoft run things, either.
I'm eager to see the MSN Music store get started. I can't wait to see Microsoft stumble.
The iTunes-iTMS-iPod integration is already so good, so full of "Of course, that's how it should work!"-ness, it's going to take a Herculean effort for another company to beat it.
Can Microsoft do it? If they were the only company involved, well, maybe they could. However, there are too many hands in the online music process to let them have free rein -- and not many of those hands want to let Microsoft run things, either.
I'm eager to see the MSN Music store get started. I can't wait to see Microsoft stumble.
:)
http://beta.music.msn.com/
alcimedes
2004-09-02, 01:23
actually, that's not a bad iTunes ripoff.
actually, that's not a bad iTunes ripoff.
it makes me want to gouge out my eyes.
Too much text and the separators aren't apparent enough.
BarracksSi
2004-09-02, 01:34
It would be better if it had preview clips.
But, it's just a beta, right?
Barracuda
2004-09-02, 01:38
I already like one feature of the MSN Music Store...for every artist's page that you go to, you can select "Find Tickets" and see where that artist is playing concerts and buy tickets to go see them. You can also select "Find Lyrics"...but it just does an MSN Search and brings up other websites and doesn't zero it down to the lyrics you are looking for very intuitively. I think Apple could definitely do this better with their spotlight technology.
I'd like to see those features added to iTunes.
Not that I am interested in buying anything on MSN Music Store...but can Mac users purchase and download on there? While you can search around their site, I don't think it's available to Mac users yet.
What I find hilarious is that there are ads on the side for "Sponsored Sites" that try to compete with MS's own offers.
Unlimited Music Download for $0.95/Month
Download Society provides unlimited downloads of millions of songs, including albums or single tracks, Mp3s, new music, movies, games, and more. Support and service 24/7. (www.downloadsocie...)
Unlimited Music Downloads - $0.99/Month
Download and play unlimited music and MP3s for only $0.99/month. Find any artist online and download all the music you want. Play them on your MP3 player. No fees per song. (www.mp3downloadin...)
Free Music Downloads $29 One Time Fee
Unlimited fast MP3 music downloads. No monthly fees. All your favorite artists available. (www.kazagold.com)
:lol:
Not that I am interested in buying anything on MSN Music Store...but can Mac users purchase and download on there? While you can search around their site, I don't think it's available to Mac users yet.Nope.
http://beta.music.msn.com/help/requirements.aspx
HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE REQUIREMENTS
Windows 98 SE, Windows 2000, or Windows XP
Internet Explorer 5.01 (or later), which supports 128-bit encryption
Windows Media Player 7.1 (or later), we recommend the latest version
A 233 megahertz (MHz) processor (such as an Intel Pentium II or Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) processor) or faster
64 megabytes (MB) of RAM or more
Speakers and sound capability
Payment with a valid credit card with a U.S. billing address
To enjoy high-quality audio as a Radio Plus subscriber, you will need Windows Media Player 9 Series (or later)
hmurchison
2004-09-02, 10:00
What can be done to prevent history repeating itself?
I don't know what history that would be. If we're talking Macintosh era then Apple has never had a majority stake. If we're talking Apple II era then we can say Apple had a larger portion of the market but if they held the majority marketshare it was very short.
This is encouraging because doomsday journalists like to make it seem like the Macintosh lost its marketshare to the dominant MS when in fact Macs have never had large marketshare and Apple has never lost a %70 advantage to MS. History cannot repeat itself because the history that some offer is incorrect.
iTMS could lose but that would take a huge gaffe from Apple and damn near anti trust actions by MS.
I agree with hmurchison.
And, please, anyone that questions if history is repeating itself needs to read this article from Daring Fireball:
Why 2004 Won’t Be Like 1984 (http://daringfireball.net/2004/08/2004_wont_be_like_1984)
It's an excellent write-up of the events then and now.
thegelding
2004-09-02, 10:52
MS plans to make more off of ads than music....
the question is:
should apple add ads? (no)
should apple market and play up the fact that MS wants you to see multiple banner ads and such while apple and iTMS just wants you to get the music you want? (yes)
g
Barracuda
2004-09-02, 15:32
Apple will never pollute iTunes with such blantant ads! They are already much smarter than that...they actually work with the labels and artists and come up with all sorts of creative promotion; they have excellent featured artist pages, iTunes Originals, all sorts of cool stuff. They are really on top of it, and I think there will always be more inventive stuff coming our way...Apple will always stay ahead of the pack with their marketing skills!
The above two things I mentioned in my last post as far as what I liked about the MSN store are the only things I like...but I like the concept of them more than I like the execution of them and I know Apple can do a better job at that! Apple should add "Tour Dates and Ticket Sales" on the featured artists page, and/or have an "On Tour" section. Something that says..."This artist on tour" ...and where...that would be convenient and cool!
If you could search for a song with a few a lyrics, that would also be cool, but I think it would be really hard to pull off!
If MS is having to sell $4 for popular songs. Do they suck that badly at convincing the record companies or is it that Apple is willing to take a hit to lock people into the iTMS?
hmurchison
2004-09-02, 17:47
"We'll make money on the ads" LOL riiiiiight Redmond. The key to making money from adverstising is great click through. This MSN Music site is an abomination...unless it drastically improves there won't be enough hits to generate money on ads.
Here's the truth. Inertia is hard for anyone to overcome..standard physics apply...if Apple maintains %60 marketshare of the legal downloads by year end 2005 the race is over for all intents and purposes. Microsoft has just over a year to skyrocket and judging from what I see their service is nowhere near the quality required.
All the koolaid drinking PC journalists in the world can will people to use such a crappy service. I'm sorry but there is no Microsoft Mystique here. End of 2005 there will be over 300 million purchased iTMS tracks. There will be home players and more car players. Apple just needs to execute very well for the next 18 months and inertia grants them the keys to this "dream machine" for a long time.
torifile
2004-09-02, 20:14
One interesting thing: there are tracks that are "CD only" as in, you've got to buy the physical CD to get the song. How stupid is that? If I were going to buy the CD, I wouldn't buy ANY tracks off it online. And these are some of the same songs that are only $.99 on the iTMS. :confused: Different deals with the record companies?
BarracksSi
2004-09-02, 20:31
I'm eager to see the MSN Music store get started. I can't wait to see Microsoft stumble.
I'm enjoying it so far... :devil: :lol:
Apple will never pollute iTunes with such blantant ads! They are already much smarter than that...they actually work with the labels and artists and come up with all sorts of creative promotion; they have excellent featured artist pages, iTunes Originals, all sorts of cool stuff. They are really on top of it, and I think there will always be more inventive stuff coming our way...Apple will always stay ahead of the pack with their marketing skills!
Exactly!
Yes a global iTMS store is something they can do. Yes Paul, there are legal hurdles, massive negotiations, and etc. But look at the whole online music idea- a couple years ago iTMS would be unheard of, anybody would have been laughed off the forums for suggesting something like that. The internet is radically changing the music business, which is why iTMS exists today and why everybody wants in on the market. If anybody can get people to change it's Jobs and Apple. I think if Jobs wants a global iTMS, we will get a global iTMS.
Before the internet, it would be unheard of to get football scores for Manchester United or to listen to the latest pop music in Japan. Everything is going global because we can. As a result, we can download anything, anytime already. So businesses might as well make a profit off it. Yes it sounds crazy, but I think this is the next step, why else would they allow you to browse other iTMSs? You can do everything on a foreign iTMS short of buying the song.
If Apple did link all the iTMSs together, MSN would be in big trouble- you'd instantly get the world buying up American songs that may have not been released in their countries, the Japanese anime/JPOP fans around the world would use iTMS, and any immigrant would use it to keep up with the music from their original country. Imagine the sheer number of people using iTMS... around the world, while MS is still trying to get the US market.
futuretheory
2004-09-03, 00:55
With all these posts making fun of MSTune, I'm filled with memories of a crazed mother screeching at her telekinetic daughter, "They're all going to laugh at you!" just before the big dance... Wait that didn't work out so well for anybody, sorry bad comparison....
I'm surprised that MS doesn't simply offer a 200 Million song promotion. "Get 10 free downloads when you sign up for your account."
$200M would be but a drop in their marketing budget.
BTW - The msTunes store is oh so bland.
It was kinda creepy how they said like. Once we get your information, it's only a couple of clicks to sign up for our other services.
Speaking of which... Jobs offered (http://www.macminute.com/2004/09/03/sony/) Sony a partnership into iTMS.
Oy. If only they'd accepted the deal they could have avoided being spanked for this mess (http://www.connect.com/).
Screed
Barracuda
2004-09-03, 22:18
About the Global iTMS...very cool idea...that would be KILLER!!!
I too have been browsing the international iTMS stores...whenever I travel, I like to buy music in the native language (or artists from those countries that sing in English, too)...usually in a genre that I enjoy listening to; mostly rock/pop/alternative but also World music too. I have bought some excellent music from French musicians and I can't wait to hear the iTMS Norway...they have an excellent music scene there! I think their climate generates a certain creativity in bands as they hole up in the winter and jam....similar to Seattle :)
I think the best way to introduce this idea is for Apple to have an IMPORT section on each iTMS store. That's a good way to start before they go completely global someday and figure out how to allocate the royalties to all the different artists and different label subsideries around the world.
iTunes is beautifully interactive to the music buffs. It such a great way to introduce or keep up on new music. I love how Apple has New Music Tuesdays, just like the industry in the US.
I would even go so far as to say that iTunes captures the essence of music in a similar way as Cameron Crowe's Almost Famous. iTunes is very thoughtful and it RAWKS!!! :smokey:
One interesting thing: there are tracks that are "CD only" as in, you've got to buy the physical CD to get the song. How stupid is that? If I were going to buy the CD, I wouldn't buy ANY tracks off it online.
iTMS has some of those too ("album only"). It's unfortunate, but it's not Apple's or MSN's fault.
I can't wait to hear the iTMS Norway...they have an excellent music scene there! I think their climate generates a certain creativity in bands as they hole up in the winter and jam....similar to Seattle :)
Yes… lots of industrial. And dark/industrial ambient too. ;)
If the iTMS ever makes it to Australia.
goldfish
2004-09-04, 17:44
Yes a global iTMS store is something they can do. Yes Paul, there are legal hurdles, massive negotiations, and etc. But look at the whole online music idea- a couple years ago iTMS would be unheard of, anybody would have been laughed off the forums for suggesting something like that. The internet is radically changing the music business, which is why iTMS exists today and why everybody wants in on the market. If anybody can get people to change it's Jobs and Apple. I think if Jobs wants a global iTMS, we will get a global iTMS.
Of course! All they'll have to do is harmonise the world's tax laws. And then after breakfast, Apple can sort out world peace.... :rolleyes:
Simon
alcimedes
2004-09-04, 18:50
iTMS has some of those too ("album only"). It's unfortunate, but it's not Apple's or MSN's fault.
iirc, the apple one's mean you have to download the entire album for the album only songs. not buy the CD. if they don't let you download a track, they don't list it as one that's available.
Of course! All they'll have to do is harmonise the world's tax laws. And then after breakfast, Apple can sort out world peace.... :rolleyes:
Simon
OK, so lets say the RIAA's efforts to curb illegal mp3s works- the majority of people are afraid to download. In addition to that, iTMS, MSN, Napster, etc. all offer songs for cheap and business booms for them. Let's take it even farther- in America illegal downloading of music has totally stopped. Nobody does it anymore. The RIAA is content, and record labels are making record profits, right? Wrong.
Now what songs are being protected here in the US? American songs. You can download a gig of Spanish songs off Kazaa and nobody will touch you. Download a Metallica song and expect to hear from the RIAA. Why? Because they want to protect the American recording companies. Good for them, but guess what? The rest of the world is still downloading American songs. A Metallica CD released in America will be available illegally online, thus anybody in the world can download it. And it's the same for recording companies all over the world. So money is still being lost through illegal downloading.
Now what is better- to have 100% (which is an impossible figure) of all songs bought in one country and rampant illegal downloading in the rest of the world? Or to have some ratio where out of every 10 songs, 5 are bought, thus making a profit? Now you may think the rest of the world is backwards when it comes to using the internet and downloading. And you're right, but eventually the rest of the world will catch up to us. Then what?
Eventually the RIAA are going to have to deal with illegal downloading on an international level and in the future, foreign downloads could very well comprimise the majority of illegal downloading of RIAA music, now you tell me which is more far-fetched:
1) Apple negotiates with record companies in the countries they have iTMS set up to allow anybody on iTMS to buy a song from them. OK, so the way of doing business is changed radically due to technology... oooh, change! Foreshame! But the recording companies can profit from this due to this change. They may not be able to stop all illegal downloads, but they can make a profit on a certain percentage of downloads.
2) RIAA goes global and to counter music piracy in the world, they start suing non-US citizens and slapping $500,000 fines on users around the world. The RIAA must now contact the US government and individual country to determine whether the RIAA can work with local authorities and sue the person in their home country or whether to extradite that person to the US so they can be sued.
3) The RIAA sets up shop in other countries and attempts to convince foreign governments to prosecute their citizens because they downloaded Metallica, Brittany Spears, etc.
4) Just hope the problem goes away and that this whole "Internet" fad will die out and people will embrace CDs once again.
What is easier and more profitable to protect music, preventing somebody downloading music or allowing people to download music for a price?
I think there is one thing that could severely hurt the iTMS.
If McCartney sided with MS and the Beatles recordings were released exclusively on MSN Music.
any possibility in this happening? cause that'd be bad news for Apple.
I think there is one thing that could severely hurt the iTMS.
If McCartney sided with MS and the Beatles recordings were released exclusively on MSN Music.
any possibility in this happening? cause that'd be bad news for Apple.
The Beatles may be good (they are, or rather, they were), but a single band is not going to cause the "end of dominance" of the iTMS.
The Beatles currently are available on *no* online store whatsoever. I'm not exactly sure why, of all stores, they would go sign up with MSN music.
(Besides, McCartney is making a fool of himself, and hurting the Beatles' reputation with his behaviour.)
Barracuda
2004-09-06, 01:03
You know, the Beatles are so HUGE that you hear them everywhere...so much so in fact, that I've hardly ever had to or wanted to buy any of their music in all my record buying years. I just wonder how big an impact they would have with MS. It could be excellent PR, and I suppose it would help reel in sales of other artists maybe even more than actual downloads of Beatle songs. I guess it all boils down to how much positive commercial influence and sales impact (and how much longevity) they will have vs. how much it costs for a company to license Beatle music to sell online via downloads. I wonder if it's worth all the hoopla to dole out all that money to Sir Paul? And are MS or Apple dealing with him or Michael Jackson? Who owns the rights to the Beatles catalog these days?
DMBand0026
2004-09-06, 01:45
Who owns the rights to the Beatles catalog these days?
Michael Jackson.
Michael Jackson.
Sold it back.
DMBand0026
2004-09-06, 11:43
To who? Paul?
BarracksSi
2004-09-06, 13:36
You know, the Beatles are so HUGE that you hear them everywhere...
My dad has said (and it's true) that every day, unless you stay stuck in your house with the TV and radio off, you will hear a Beatles song, whether it's one of their recordings or another band doing a cover.
MacGregor
2004-09-06, 18:21
Apple will never pollute iTunes with such blantant ads! They are already much smarter than that...they actually work with the labels and artists and come up with all sorts of creative promotion; they have excellent featured artist pages, iTunes Originals, all sorts of cool stuff. They are really on top of it, and I think there will always be more inventive stuff coming our way...Apple will always stay ahead of the pack with their marketing skills!
I agree as well....it would be nice to see some commercials to that effect!
DMBand0026
2004-09-07, 02:33
Here's (http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/print-ptech-20040902.html) a review/comparison of MS Music and iTMS from Walt Mossberg of the WSJ. Link is to the printable version, so the formatting may be screwy.
theshadow
2004-09-07, 04:44
The Shadow is impressed by the increasing reach of iTunes - movie trailers, well-targeted suggestive selling and banner promos, videos, radio charts from across the USA. I would like to see the foreign Apple divisions be more aggresive in making the stores relevant in the markets. I'd like to know what's in the top-ten in London AND Paris AND Gotham.
Still, the Shadow knows what evil lurks in the hearts of Redmond - total integration. New Mediaplayer might be ugly, but it does everything - except work with iPod. Long, slow erosion of iPod sales will follow.
A pity Apple won't compete overseas.
DMBand0026
2004-09-07, 11:56
hey theshadow, did you read any other posts in this thread?
Apple can't currently compete overseas in most places. It's not as simple as just opening up say, an iTMS Japan. They have to have licensing agreements with every record label in Japan, including any that export to Japan. They have to figure out which percentage of profits go where, how to price the songs.
It's not as simple as just implementing some Japanese characters in iTunes and calling it a day, it's a whole lot more work than that.
And you seem to think that Apple isn't competing at all by your prediction of "slow erosion of iPod sales to follow." Apple is competing...remember when you said this:
The Shadow is impressed by the increasing reach of iTunes - movie trailers, well-targeted suggestive selling and banner promos, videos, radio charts from across the USA.
That's Apple staying on top of things at it's finest. And if you think for one second that Steve Jobs and his crew aren't on the phones daily talking to record company execs., you're crazy.
Apple can't currently compete overseas in most places. It's not as simple as just opening up say, an iTMS Japan.
What about the reports that iTMS is coming to Japan? Traditionally that's been a big market for Apple. Type in iTMS japan in any search engine and you get a whole slew of hits.
Going global is the only way iTMS will survive. Apple already has a big lead over MS and they should keep it that way. The EU clearly doesn't like MS due to the antitrust case against them. So Apple can use that in its favor and has been- UK, France, Germany all have iTMS.
Apple can't currently compete overseas in most places. It's not as simple as just opening up say, an iTMS Japan. They have to have licensing agreements with every record label in Japan, including any that export to Japan. They have to figure out which percentage of profits go where, how to price the songs.
There's a big difference between "it's a bit of a bugger" and "it's impossible". I think this is a case of the former rather than the latter. Don't forget that Apple does have regional offices in most of the big non-US countries which should be able to handle at least negotiating with the big five…
And I'm not sure why you think that it would be necessary to have "licensing agreements with every record label in Japan". They don't even have this in America!
BarracksSi
2004-09-07, 15:29
And I'm not sure why you think that it would be necessary to have "licensing agreements with every record label in Japan". They don't even have this in America!
There's certainly a difference between "every" and "many". One of the issues with the opening of the Euro iTMS was whether the smaller, Not-Big-Five labels would sign on with Apple. Once they did (well, most of them, anyway), things really opened up.
I'm expecting the same scenario in other markets.
DMBand0026
2004-09-07, 15:37
I never said it couldn't happen, but it's not easy. It will happen, and I know that Apple is working around the clock to get it up and running, but it's hard, a lot harder than we'll ever really know.
So give it time, but that's time that MS, Real, Napster, Rhapsody, and everyone else will have to take too. Apple will get there first, but it may not be there for a while.
I hate when people talk in third person.
My dad has said (and it's true) that every day, unless you stay stuck in your house with the TV and radio off, you will hear a Beatles song, whether it's one of their recordings or another band doing a cover.
you should tell your dad that his truth depends on where you are at. i live in harlem, new york, and i don't hear much of the beatles, as good as they may be... with your dads reasoning r kelly would be the biggest artist in the universe.
no harm meant.
BarracksSi
2004-09-07, 23:28
you should tell your dad that his truth depends on where you are at. i live in harlem, new york, and i don't hear much of the beatles, as good as they may be... with your dads reasoning r kelly would be the biggest artist in the universe.
no harm meant.
Heh -- yeah, I see your point.
I'd think that he was talking about the general media (TV & radio), Muzak, and other publicly heard music.
It's like how Michael Jordan was on TV at some point every day for so many years.
One week down and how many songs have been sold?
Q: When will MS announce sales figures?
A: When they decide the store is no longer in Beta.
futuretheory
2004-09-08, 22:06
And if you think for one second that Steve Jobs and his crew aren't on the phones daily talking to record company execs., you're crazy.
Well, I'm sure Steve put at least one guy on hold while the docs were turning forks in his pancreas....
goldfish
2004-09-09, 17:19
To who? Paul?
To Sony, I think... they've got whacko Jacko over a barrel as he's into them for large quantities of cash atm. IIRC he still owns just under 50%, but is in danger of needing to sell that too to extricate himself from his alleged criminal behaviour...
Simon
StevesMom
2004-09-10, 04:48
To Sony, I think... they've got whacko Jacko over a barrel as he's into them for large quantities of cash atm. IIRC he still owns just under 50%, but is in danger of needing to sell that too to extricate himself from his alleged criminal behaviour...
Simon
IIRC Whacko sold half his share in 1991 for £70m to Sony and used Sony as a guarantor on a £140m loan which they agreed to provided he used the other half of the back-catalogue as security.
Seems a dead cert that Sony will end up holding the rights. I suspect this will mean that Beatles tracks will end up exclusively on Sony's "Connect" service rather than MSN/ITMS.
SM.
StevesMom
2004-09-10, 04:50
One week down and how many songs have been sold?
Q: When will MS announce sales figures?
A: When they decide the store is no longer in Beta.
Q: When will MS decide the store is no longer in Beta ?
A: When they can work out what constitutes "success" rather than "catchup"
:)
MacGregor
2004-09-10, 16:44
You know, the Beatles are so HUGE that you hear them everywhere...so much so in fact, that I've hardly ever had to or wanted to buy any of their music in all my record buying years.
I concur in your assessment that the Beatles on iTMS is not a big deal (other than for marketing purposes), but for different reasons. I may be advocating the illegal here, but I can't imagine that the average human doesn't own some Beatles CD's or know people who own some and can't rip them. Why download Beatles music?
What would be REALLY intriguing is to be able to download Beatles music videos or minidocumentaries of songs!!!! I'd pay for those.
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