View Full Version : Creative Suite 2
MacUsers
2004-09-20, 21:56
Has it already been that long? Feels like the creative suite is still new.
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0409adobecs20.html
pscates2.0
2004-09-20, 22:33
Cool. Hope they offer a generous upgrade path, since I basically busted my ass doing extra side work to get this thing, fair and square, back in early 2004!
onlyafterdark
2004-09-20, 23:02
I know how you feel, I did the same thing. I hope the upgrade isnt a whole lot, I dont think I can handle two jobs again. I guess we will find out pretty soon though.
All depends on how you define "soon". ;)
JoshCarter
2004-09-21, 10:14
I may skip this one. The original CS was very disappointing. Illustrator CS has a couple features flat-out broken (old features, even), crashes frequently, and has never been updated. I had to switch back to Illustrator 10. Photoshop CS is decent enough, but I've also had as many crashes with it as I have with all previous versions of Photoshop (back to 2.5) combined.
Adobe is definitely getting more cash-driven and less product-driven, as pointed out in the original article. Quality is slipping and the new features hardly justify the upgrade costs. As one who has stood by Adobe for over 10 years, I hate to say it, but they are starting to look more and more like Microsoft with each passing year.
-Josh
pscates2.0
2004-09-21, 10:46
Are you serious? I think Illustrator CS is quite righteous. I finally got my wish that Adobe would bring back Dimensions, and, lo and behold, they go and stick it into Illustrator and make it SO easy to use!
It's never crashed on me. Not once.
Odd.
It's funny. The previous version to Illustrator is ALWAYS the one preferred by many. I remember when 6.0 came out, the diehards said it sucked, and stuck with 5.5. Same with Illustrator 7.0, 8.0, and 9. When 9 came out, people flipped and many stuck with 8 because 9 was "teh suck". Then 10 came out and suddenly 9 was the fair-haired child everyone suddenly dug. I've seen so many people dinging on Illustrator CS and sticking with 10 (which, apparently, sucked horribly just a couple of short years ago).
Not a gripe or slam, by any means, on anyone preferring 10 over CS...you use what works. Just kinda funny how Illustrator consistently gets slammed with a new release, and so many people stick with the prior version. Photoshop and other stuff always hit home runs and are adored with each new version. But Illustrator seems to divide the camp right down the middle!
:D :)
futuretheory
2004-09-21, 19:04
Yeah, Illustrator CS rocks. Never had a problem with it and the features are awesome. Illus-traitor 10 always had issues, crashed from time to time and even f$sked some files. Photoshop CS and Illustrator CS are even more integrated.
I'll say it here...in 3 years Adobe spins Photoshop and Illustrator into one new app called "Creative Suite" (or something) while Indesign stays, ImageReady becomes more robust, and GoLive goes dead. Photoshop continues to live separately, Illustrator dies thru attrition.
All the CS tools were a huge upgrade in both stability and features. For me, Indesign really impressed me--never again Quark! Do you hear me Quark? NEVER AGAIN.
So I'll check into this new CS, hopefully they've refined the versioncue thing, showed promise but I never got it to do what I needed. I never really cared about GoLive as I have committed my brain to Dreamweaver, but it does do some cool things like help you build link up interactive PDFs.
MacUsers
2004-09-21, 19:22
I agree with pscates... Illustrator CS is a lot better than 10.
Illustrator 10 was slow, buggy and really, really slow.
And it had less features than CS. And it was slow.
CS gets my vote.
urgh!! we just moved to CS like 2 months ago. sucks.
Don't worry, your investment won't run out for a while yet.
Adobe GoLive CS 8.0, why bother, and I don't know why they are focusing so much on CSS when their layout engine still can't properly display relative positioned or hidden layers inside Component files, DW2004 doesn't have a problem with complex CSS layouts and GoLive still does. Besides with Dynamic Content missing from the picture, who's still using it for serious work. GoLive 6.0 is still the best version they have. They'd be better off grafting CSS features back onto 6.0 and calling it a new product.
I think you speak of that which you don't know. But that's just my opinion.
CS Sucks, that Illustrator is full of bugs and crap always happens to text and photoshop is much much slower...
I installed it and deleted it, thank god I did not have to waste a penny on that JUNK! They need to spend a bit more time working on their software—its too bad there isnt a viable alternative.
I am not a heavy Illustrator user, heck I doubt if I qualify as a light user, but I had all sorts of crashing issues with Illustrator CS. I finally trashed Ill CS and reinstalled 10. Things have been fine ever since.
Photoshop CS seems stable.
DMBand0026
2004-10-08, 15:41
I've stuck with 10 only because I don't have the money to put into CS right now and I've never had a problem with 10. Great app, I really love Illustrator.
Bastard: curious to know what kind of hardware you're running. I personally and the studio I work at runs it on dual G4s and G5s and all the CS apps run smooth as silk. Get the horse-power and the RAM, and if it still is slow, then complain.
drewprops
2004-10-09, 00:18
Like Paul I "live" in Illustrator, but unlike him I have refrained from upping to CS because I wasn't working a lot when it was released and then I was working so much that I wasn't about to risk a potential slowdown due to flakey new software. What I want to know is this: "Is there an Upgrade Pack for CS for users of all the component parts?"
'Cause I gots all them parts.
Sure would be nice to have a single purchase to make when doing my upgrades.
AND although I've moved over to Dreamweaver for much of my future web design I will tell you right now that there's a neat-o code view in GoLive that lets you open up tags like folders in the Mac OS, delving ever-deeper to see the structure of your code....a GRRRRREAT way to spot missing or misplaced tags. When I'm doing CSS coded pages I like to have GoLive cranked up for that very function. Too much to pay for the app to use it in such a specialized way, but until I find a good third-party app that does the same (or better) I'll keep GoLive on my toolbench.
Hoping that there's a CS2 upgrade pack!!
GoLive's CSS and code editing in general has gotten very powerful. If you like what you see now... you might be well-advised to keep the faith for a while longer and see what's next. I know I'm going to. ;)
Illustrator CS is HORRENDOUS. When did Adobe think that no backwards compatibility was a good idea? I wasn't aware that Adobe did something so stupid until I had completed a project for work (the publishing company I work for really likes to edit things with older versions of Illustrator, so I have to save things as 6.0 or 9.0 EPS).
Holy mother of god, I wanted to cry. Or stab things. So after that, I spent a bit of time copying each layer into 10. Painstaking. 6 is probably the best application for tracing really detailed maps, just because it's such a light application. Although, it really doesn't matter to *me* anymore, what with the purchase of my G5.
Bastard: curious to know what kind of hardware you're running. I personally and the studio I work at runs it on dual G4s and G5s and all the CS apps run smooth as silk. Get the horse-power and the RAM, and if it still is slow, then complain.
I use a 17" p-book 1gig/1gig
Going by your statement adobe needs to change their system requirements...
I will agree that for a long time now, they've under-reported practical system requirments. Maybe it's a thing their lawyers demand or something but frankly I wouldn't touch any app in the suite with less than a 700 or 800 MHz G4 and at least 512MB of RAM on OS X. To say it's less than that is disingenuous IMO but I guess they have their reasons.
Your machine is what I'd consider low end for Adobe suite work. We have a couple similar machines and they can be slow at times depending on the specific operation being performed.
The bottom line is, both the OS and these apps are hardware-hungry... put them together and the math is pretty easy.
I can almost guarantee the people complaining about CS are, in fact, having issues with their setup. Learn how to maintain your computer properly.
Yah, there's always that but I'd like to think most of the people who come in here are at least savvy enough to use an installer properly (and uninstall things properly, etc).
But yah, my old employer used to put ALL KINDS of crappy applications and things that would chew up processor cycles in the background, all over his drive. They'd be at the root level, user level... documents folder. Everywhere. And many of them were things that would auto-install startup items and the like, which he was oblivious to.
Thought himself a real Mac guru because he had a bunch of gutted LCs and old CRTs in his old office, and because he got into programming for a while when calculators cost $400... Oooo. In reality he was absolutely clueless when it came to OS X and how to install things properly, maintain the system, etc.
I of course, being stupid enough to think he'd listen to someone who actually did know how to handle OS X, tried to explain better ways of doing things (and even tried for a while to keep his system in good working order by re-organizing things under the right hierarchy, etc). Naturally, ignorance is bliss and he wanted no part of it, because that would require he admit someone other than himself had some answers.
pscates2.0
2005-02-03, 09:02
That guy belongs in the [Wow, that person was a DICK (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=3638) thread, huh? I'd put him there...
More like he belongs in the "Wow, that guy is a complete egomaniacal, emotionally unstable, honery dick who has approximately 6.5mm of fungus built up on his teeth because he refuses to go to the dentist and hasn't been in over a decade" thread.
:D
octavist13
2005-02-04, 13:23
Haha. That guy you described is exactly like my boss. He's 20 years my senior so he won't listen to a word I have to say, but at least I get to maintain my own 2 macs at my workstation. He's a total moron. Anyhoo, back to the subject at hand, I work for a printing company and we do a lot of packaging work that is built in Illustrator. I like 10 and CS pretty much equally. I haven't really had many problems with either. My beef with CS is, as colicab mentioned, the lack of reverse compatibility. Sure you can export CS files as legacy Illustrator, but it screws up the formatting of you text somethin' fierce. In an industry where different vendors required certain file versions, this kind of thing makes my job a real hassle.
Haha. That guy you described is exactly like my boss. He's 20 years my senior so he won't listen to a word I have to say, but at least I get to maintain my own 2 macs at my workstation.
There's always the silver lining, eh? No matter how much crap we put up with at the time, we still got to use Macs at work everyday. I can honestly say in retrospect, that was the only good thing about that job. One of those deals where you look back and wonder why in God's name you agreed to start there in the first place. I guess when times are hard you have to do what you can; that's where I was at back then. Now thankfully i actually get to do something I enjoy doing (and work with Macs). :)
Anyhoo, back to the subject at hand...My beef with CS is, as colicab mentioned, the lack of reverse compatibility. Sure you can export CS files as legacy Illustrator, but it screws up the formatting of you text somethin' fierce. In an industry where different vendors required certain file versions, this kind of thing makes my job a real hassle.
Yah. InDesign CS has that problem. Photoshop of course is good with reverse compatibility, you just have to set the preference ahead of time and work with it. I always set the maximize compatibility thing to never because all the individuals I send files to always have the latest version anyway. :)
octavist13
2005-02-04, 21:20
So, Moogs, what do you do now? I actually somewhat enjoy working in litho, it's just the dumbass narrowed-minded old-timers that I can't stand. It's like, man, get with the times guys. I know this is how you USED to do it, but, c'mon, it's so much easier now.
I work for a commercial photography studio and also spend part of my work-week on my own photography. Macs at both places, though my good ole Mistubishi 22" CRT is breathing its dying breath. The phosphors are going (about five years old now). Time for a 23" ACD.
As for the old guys, I didn't mean to imply that your job wasn't a worthy pursuit -- was just trying to relate to the whole evil boss™ thing relative to why I took the job. Believe me, what you're doing now, it's probably paradise compared to where I used to work. Like you say, if you have interesting work and it's just a few of the people you have to deal with... you can manage one way or another.
And I know what you mean about old timers in general. The old fear of change thing is never an easy one to deal with when you're trying to get / use the best tools available for the job, and they want to do it the old (pain in the ass) way.... ;)
nathanaaron02
2005-02-09, 10:27
So back to CS 2.0, has anyone heard any new news? Has a release date/time actually been announced? I know there were rumors during MacWorld, but nothing now? Just curious what everyone has heard lately? Thanks!
defaultmike
2005-02-10, 07:51
Bastard: curious to know what kind of hardware you're running. I personally and the studio I work at runs it on dual G4s and G5s and all the CS apps run smooth as silk. Get the horse-power and the RAM, and if it still is slow, then complain.
How about someone working on a Dual 2.0GHz G5 with 2.5Gbs of RAM, would that qualify as a computer that should run Illustrator CS fine?
Before I got my 2 Gig sticks, (I had stock 512) Illustrator would crash everytime I opened "brainstorm" files. Even now, as I have 2.5 Gbs of Ram it still messes up everynow and then. I love it, specially the new features, but the 3d feature is still not nearly as good as it could be. and the app needs to be improved upon to be lighter and less buggy...
That certainly qualifies as good enough, but it sounds like the extra RAM did help you out, no? Or are you still seeing the exact same problem, rather than just "random glitches", which all complex software titles have.
Man... I've been waiting for the new CS for months. I figured, just a few more months, that'd be better than finally getting corporate to upgrade me to CS 1. (Don't ask me why the web/design (mostly web) has version 6 of photoshop (the old design collection) while "personal assistants" have CS 1).
Now I get asked to work on something we can print out, and then map the content to the web in the future. I'm hoping CS 2 makes this easier... But I'd just be happy to have it so I can get other things done (I still have to recompress pngs, etc).
Does anyone have any information whatsoever?
What do you mean by "map the content to the web"? What part are you having trouble with? Do you have a decent amount of web design experience or are you being asked to be a jack of all trades, when in fact your main trade is graphic design? It's pretty easy with existing versions of Photoshop and GoLive to create your layout in PS and transfer it to a web context.
There are tools and functions in both apps built for that purpose. Same goes for Illustrator.
Hmmm not really the place for introductions. I just wanted some juicy gossip about CS 2. ;)
Well I'm basically a web guy. But I studied design. What usually happens is I get asked a question or are given a design project and then promptly ignored. I just go back to my hole and turn out complex web pages because they can't touch them. ;)
As for the project it's changed a bit. Originally we figured it'd be tooth and nail to get the person in charge to OK it. It's an internal corporate directory of major contacts at divisions. Someone has been working on it in Pagemaker for years. Originally we figured I'd need to restructure it in InDesign (lots of cleaning is needed) so that we could have HR admin it and print it out.
The future part was if we convinced the person in charge to put it on a secure web site. I was going to have to take all the work being done now and bring the content over. Naturally I didn't want to do too much work rewriting or anything like that. I have InDesign 2 and haven't had much luck with it's XML capabilities. It's not very intuitive. I planned on learning it's quirks, but a new version might help.
In any event, now we're ignoring the print and going all web. So I need a way to get the content, all laid out in messy text boxes over to something the person in HR can manage for getting updates. (Hasn't been touched in a few years). I'm hoping I can get it to Excel or something more literal and tabular so when she's done updating it I can turn around and bring it into a database so that future updates can happen through whatever (hopefully usable) interface I conjure for the web site.
Whew, that was long winded. Wooo, post numba 2...
You'll get no gossip from the likes of me, but if the files weren't originally made with InDesign, you're going to have a hell of a time "converting" them to any useful state for the web with GoLive or any other product. As you say, it's not always a perfectly streamlined deal even when you do start with InDesign documents. It's just a very difficult thing for developers to do because of the way documents are encoded, objects that don't translate well, etc.
As a rule If you have a siginificant web presence you intend to build, it's best to design it with a tool that allows you to optimize all aspects of the site content, not just "convert a brochure" to HTML. I know a lot of corporate types think that's all there is to it, because they're very ill-educated when it comes to the capabilities of design software, but you have to be real about it. Even where there is built-in functionality to do it like with InDesign and GoLive, it's not usually a one shot deal. Much tweaking and gnashing of teeth can ensue, depeding on how complex the original layout was.
If you want the pages to render right and have valid code, don't convert them. Build them up from common graphic components (take your TIFs, EPS, PSD, etc and Save for Web as needed), and you'll end up with a much better product.
No matter how far in the future you look, using automated "conversion" features for significant web presence is not going to be a 1-2-3 kind of thing. You'll want to build the site from the ground up. It's more work but much less maintenance later on.
[Edited to correct grammar / add a sentence to the last paragraph].
Thanks for the response Moogs. You are exactly correct. Making brochure sites that have a lot of fluff are anti-productive. I agree with you 100%.
I figured you'd say something like that. There's no magic bullet to get this done. I guess I'll be doing a lot of re-typing and cutting/pasting.
You missunderstood though. What I was referring to bringing over is just the content. Not the styles or layouts. In fact the thing doesn't have any images or other creative to begin with. It's just a lot of poorly laid out text.
It's only a small novel size booklet. But it's still 40-50 pages of text. Not something I'm looking forward to rolling into a database in a tabular format. Guess I'll have a lot of repetitiveness on my hands next week at work. :err:
Hmmm. Yah, that could be potentially irksome. Since you're going to have to move the text around and play with how much you place inside each DIV / cell, you're going to be cutting and pasting anyway. I'll put a little more thought into that. I don't know of anything off hand that would make that type of thing much quicker but maybe I'm forgetting something...
webgodjj
2005-02-22, 12:49
Ok.. first off, I haven't upgraded to CS because frankly, I can't afford to upgrade twice. Around December rumors started that Adobe was going to introduce 2.0 sometime early this year... Still waiting. I do have CS at work, and am not experiencing all the problems everyone else does.
My quesitons would be simple
1. There seems to be no mention about Adobe's Version que... does anyone use this and do you think they will expand upon it? If you haven't checked it out.. Do so. It is really powerful, even if you are a single user
2. Dear God.. Should I buy CS now and bite the bullet in a month? I already bought Illustrator, because I needed a few of the features for a project (project paid enough). Now, I'm unsure. As a web designer, god do I love how in Image Ready you can define some slices are in different tables... CS did a great thing there. Now if Image ready CS 2.0 would allow to incorporate css tags..
If you check the average amount of time between releases, you'll get the answer to "should I buy the original CS suite now?"
As far as Version Cue, unless you believe they're getting rid of it, it's probably safe to assume they will try to improve it from one release to the next... just as they would any other feature set.
That's about all I can say. :)
defaultmike
2005-02-22, 22:25
hey moogs, yeah, I got great improvements thanks to the 2.0Gbs of RAM, and don't get me wrong, I abso-freaking-lutely love Illustrator CS, it's just that it's buggier than any other Illustrator version that I've ever used (I've been using it since 6 or 7).
Poor me even has to use it on a G4 400MHz with 768 of Ram at work... that's just torture!
and what's the deal, u have inside info that you're keeping from us, do u work for Adobe or something? SPILL IT! :P
Glad to hear the RAM elixir is working for you; I've always found that is the single best way to improve performance with any high-octane design app.
As for spilling things: assuming I had the kind of information you seek, that would mean I was given a legitimate opportunity to obtain said information. It would also mean I signed an NDA. Which would mean divulging details about some hypothetical product, might be a bad idea, should I hope to get the same opportunity next time... which of course would mean I'm not going to tell you anything.
:D
But that's all assuming I had inside information, which I can neither confirm nor deny. Talk to my lawyer if you have any further questions. ;)
drewprops
2005-02-24, 17:21
I'm waiting for CS2.0 to land, whether or not Teddy Alspach likes it on a Mac or not! ;)
Other than OS X, it's the biggest release of the year, every year in my twisted world. :)
Just a thought but is it not possible that the new release is tied into the release of Tiger??
I which case we could see a new OS, new Powermacs (dual CPU cores and/or graphics cards) and a new release of CS all at the same time........
Now I'm getting excited!!!
Yeah I've used CS extensively on PC and Mac, (basically on PC for awhile until I got a mac) and I would venture to say that CS's intuitiveness is crippled in a Windows environment.
What do you mean? I almost never use the suite on a Windows machine so I'm curious as to your reasoning. AFAICT the palette layouts, menu layouts and general GUI layout have always been similar across platforms, except where you have to drill-down through multiple dialog boxes (which is always a PITA on windows).
bassplayinMacFiend
2005-02-25, 10:24
What do you mean? I almost never use the suite on a Windows machine so I'm curious as to your reasoning. AFAICT the palette layouts, menu layouts and general GUI layout have always been similar across platforms, except where you have to drill-down through multiple dialog boxes (which is always a PITA on windows).
Well, there's no scripting language in Windows (unless you consider .bat files scripting :err: ) so if you take the time to build up an automated system in OS X, there's no way to transfer that to Windows, unless you only use the scripting abilities provided in Adobe's products.
Ah... this is true. Scripting can be a useful thing with reptitive tasks, that's for sure. Although the Windows side still has Actions in their favor, even if it takes some time to get a complex one set up correctly.
I still wonder how much Automator will be able to take advantage of 3rd party apps like Photoshop or Excel. If it's just an Apple-centric thing were it can only take advantage of Services and other Apple-designed stuff, it will have limited use for professionals. It needs to tie into more than just Mail, iLife and iWork, for example.
Or at least be able to record a series of events and repeat them. Actions for OS X I guess you could say. That would be very cool.
I have to ask...
I keep hearing that RAM is the best way to give any production suite, be it Adobe, Apple, or Macromedia or whatever... but what about video card..
In other word, would a mac that has stock ram and upgraded video card run those apps better than a mac with upgraded ram and stock video card?
Well that's a very application-specific issue. Anything that makes use of OpenGL to render your work for example, might do better with the machine that has the souped up video card. 3D modelling apps, Motion, as well as specific filters or plug-ins that you might buy for use with Photoshop or Painter. But for now a high-end video card really won't do much for you in terms of Adobe apps, when compared to more standard (OEM) cards.
When Tiger comes out though, this will change, because much of what is now done on CPUs, will be done on the GPU. So for example if Adobe or other developers were to re-write portions of their code to take advantage of Apple's new 2D rendering technology in Tiger, from then on, their apps might be better served by a heavy-duty video card vs. an extra 512MB of RAM.
But keep in mind one of the biggest advantages of more RAM is the ability to run more apps simultaneously without making heavy use of virtual memory, so that will always be a worthwhile upgrade IMO, since running an app now takes a lot more horsepower than it used to.
My plans for Tiger: Radeon x800 XT Mac Edition, which takes advantage of the pixel shading technologies that Tiger will depend on, and which has 256MB of VRAM. Once applications start taking advntage of CoreImage and other rendering technologies, a great graphics card is going to be a more sound investment than it is currnently. Right now about the biggest benefit you get is much better gaming (usually).
Frank777
2005-02-25, 14:54
Moogs can't answer directly, so I will.
For those who are unaware, Adobe typically works on an 18-month development schedule for major releases.
The Creative suite was introduced (http://www.creativepro.com/story/news/20216.html?origin=story) in September 2003, so that would imply a major upgrade to CS anywhere between now and the beginning of April.
drewprops
2005-02-25, 19:57
tee hee
Drew what have you been drinking? ;)
[after reading your other thread I'm guessing Nyquil] :D
Not related directly to the suite per se but this is kind of a cool development (no pun intended).
http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/17368
I'm just glad that I'm looking into CS 2 more for fun now than necessity. But don't tell my boss that. ;)
Of course I also only have a 15" Powerbook so I can't get a supped up video card right now for Tiger. And I don't know if I can get more than a Gig of RAM (which I already have) without breaking the bank.
But I'm sure my little machine will do just fine once my hard drive is replaced. At least at home. Here's to hoping CS 2 isn't too bloated and slow. :)
Yep, that's a good thing to hope with any design software product. And it's never too late to learn the Creative Suite, whether you're doing it for fun or for work. It's an awesome set of skills to have on your resume and just to have in general when creating digital art. Good stuff....
Track_40
2005-03-15, 18:25
Does anyone know what's going on with this update (CS2?) I've been waiting to upgrade from Photoshop to the entire suite for almost 2+ months now, based on Thinksecret's previous reports. Is this really coming soon? Is it Tiger dependent?
webgodjj
2005-03-15, 18:31
I believe it is. Every hint I have been getting on the life cycle is pointing to a late may or early April release of the Creative Suite. This seems to fall right around the time of the new operating system. Might help drive sales in both directions. Then again, this is a guess.
By "hints" I presume you mean "other people's speculations I read on the internet"? Welcome to the forums, btw.
webgodjj
2005-03-15, 19:13
That is a correct statement.
Honesty is a good thing. :)
webgodjj
2005-03-22, 19:45
However, mind you.. the voices in my head say that what these people are saying around the net is quite true. I can't think of a 14-16 month cycle that Adobe hasn't updated something. Hmmm... gotta layoff the coffee :)
Coffee is a diuretic, you know... all that caffeine and "bean toxins" are bad for the kidneys and liver. Also impairs judgement. :D
drewprops
2005-03-23, 07:20
I wonder what the code names of all the new CS apps were. Code names are always fun. So are easter eggs. Wonder if those have been removed.
Coffee is a diuretic, you know... all that caffeine and "bean toxins" are bad for the kidneys and liver. Also impairs judgement. :D
M.akezs yooouu twwitttchyyy tooooooooooooooooooo! :D
Scratt: Are you sure it's the coffee that makes you twitchy? If I were bungie jumping out of airplanes into heavily infested crocodile pits (or whatever it is you do), I think that might make me twitchy....
Scratt: Are you sure it's the coffee that makes you twitchy? If I were bungie jumping out of airplanes into heavily infested crocodile pits (or whatever it is you do), I think that might make me twitchy....
That and the cocaine.... :p
Yikes. Nasty stuff, that. I bet you and LoC would have great parties though. :D
drewprops
2005-03-24, 23:16
I'm now a tad worried that CS2 apps will run like dog on even the newest Powerbooks because they'll be Tiger dependent.. but how could they beta those apps if they WERE Tiger dependent? The one sort of nixes the other.
For any software or hardware product, ask yourself this question:
How wise it would be for a developer to have as a *requirement*, the presence of a brand new operating system, which, even a year or two after its release, may not account for more than 55 or 60% of all the platform's users?
IOW, if you were a developer and had to decide when would be a good time to make your new gizmo dependant on Tiger, what percentage of the Mac user market would have to use Tiger before you were comfortable making that choice? If it were my company, the answer would be 70% or higher.
That's just my opinion, were I to be facing a hypothetical situation like that... FWhateverIW.
Frank777
2005-03-25, 14:17
Nothing to worry about in that regard.
Adobe has never been first to jump on OS-specific new features. The CS actually uses it's own built-in display system instead of Quartz to ensure that both Mac and Windows versions have feature parity.
So it'll be a long, long while before CS2 requires Core Image.
I'm actually surprised Adobe is holding the CS2 announcement back so close to Tiger's unveiling. Tiger's reportedly out of the bag by April 15, and knowing Microsoft, they'll try to announce some nonsense to deprive Apple of the sole spot in the limelight.
If CS2's announced in mid-April, what is supposed to be a major unveiling may get lost in the crossfire.
On another note, it'll be interesting to see how the Core Image spec affects open source development on the Mac.
Apple will not release it's own Photoshop-killer, and I doubt many third parties would base a whole product on APIs so tighly controlled by Apple.
But how long would it take an open source project to compile a near Photoshop clone?
That's the intriguing question.
Not sure I follow your reasoning Frank. CS is not an operating system so how would it get "lost in the crossfire" based on when Apple or MS announces their systems? They're not competing with Apple or MS.
Frank777
2005-03-25, 22:53
I know they don't directly compete, but many Macheads (including Yours Truly) are waiting for Tiger's release to upgrade Desktop and Laptop systems. And CS upgrades aren't exactly cheap.
I know from the grapevine that CS2 has some immense upgrades that should be well worth the money (unlike the last time.) But the market can only bear so much and with new hardware and OS upgrades in the near term pipeline, companies may be hard pressed to spring for Adobe app upgrades at the same time.
I think they should get the CS2 announcement out in front of Tiger's release, so that a CS upgrade is discussed before companies commit to spending IT dollars without knowing a new CS is around the corner.
As we've seen from this thread, even many Adobe users don't realize the company's timeframe for application upgrades.
I see what you're saying. I guess for small companies on a budget, the choice could end up being either upgrade everyone's OS, or upgrade everyone's Creative Suite (then get the other item later). But I suspect that the way most companies will look at it is this: the two pieces of software that can most directly affect their productivity (and thus bottom line) are OS X and the Adobe Suite.
The choice then, will probably end up being between buying everyone a license for both of these items (once they're both available) vs. upgrading random pieces of hardware (printers, monitors, etc.). To me that's a no-brainer (I'd get both pieces of software), but I guess every company will have different prioritahs.
If it did come down to a choice between the software items, I think more businesses would be hesitant to upgrade their OS right away... There are always a few serious problems with any 10.x OS (last time it was File Vault corruptions and Firewire drive failures). The kinds of things that can seriously jeopardize your data (and thus livelihood). OTOH, new versions of Photoshop, Illustrator, etc... tend to be more stable and trustworthy right out of the box.
Just my $.03 worth.
It seems to be a leaked press release. Over on Neowin, I just saw this post, apparently we'll be seeing CS2 in May.
http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=27649&category=main
Track_40
2005-03-27, 21:23
oh yes...
the mothership is about to land...
Tiger's reportedly out of the bag by April 15, and knowing Microsoft, they'll try to announce some nonsense to deprive Apple of the sole spot in the limelight.
Good call; XP 64-bit edition is supposed to hit mid-April. Whoo-ho-hooooo... :unimpressed:
pscates2.0
2005-03-28, 12:36
Building on vagari's post above:
http://www.macminute.com/2005/03/28/photoshop/
Looks like our "G5 premature specification" web guy from Apple landed on his feet with a gig at Adobe.
:p
I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of a premature specification.
:D
Frank777
2005-03-28, 17:24
Photoshop was never going to be the 'must-have' of the suite anyway.
The publishing industry is waiting to see what ID 4 brings to the table and whether GoLive can be rebuilt into a real pro web design solution.
April 4 should be fun.
Errr. All references to the next suite and its components aside, Photoshop has always been the cornerstone / single most popular "can't do without it" app in Adobe's lineup (my opinion not theirs necessarily). As for GoLive, I've been using it for many years and compared to Dreamweaver MX / MX 2004 I find the Adobe interfance much more intuitive.
For sure they are both powerful programs, but I fail to see how anyone can call Dreamweaver professional and GoLive not. Unless you're a Dynamic Content geek who was put off by that component's removal last version, both applications are very capable when it comes to creating complex designs and site management capabilities. In fact, GoLive is much better on the site management side if you ask me.
Never got the whole "Dreamweaver is a serious tool and GoLive isn't" thing. I think if DW never got hooked up with BBEdit, that myth never would've materialized. Code Envy anyone? I don't know. Maybe I'm nuts but I've always liked GoLive better (even when it wasn't owned by Adobe).
Frank777
2005-03-28, 17:59
I use ID and GoLive, but even with XML to bridge the gap, the idea of taking your ID files to GoLive remains a kludge.
I hope the removal of the Dynamic content feature in GL7 was to allow for a better implementation. Everybody, especially publication owners, wants to build database driven sites and GoLive really doesn't help matters.
For the record, I see Dreamweaver as just as bad, requiring designers to either learn to code or pass the work off to a coder.
Publications should be able to easily rework content from an ID file to end up with a site like MacCentral, with little difficulty.
Ah. OK I see where you're coming from now. [Not touting Dreamweaver so much as just wanting more from GoLive?] I will say that this concept:
Publications should be able to easily rework content from an ID file to end up with a site like MacCentral, with little difficulty
...is not an easy thing to develop at all. For Adobe or anyone else. There is no such thing as a "slam dunk data driven site". These types of content pages will always require visual tweaking and some back end work in order to operate smoothly. Same with taking very complex print designs and making them into properly rendering, *validating* web pages. Much easier said than done. It's not just about making things look right anymore; standards matter too.
As for InDesign and GoLive... rest assured when users submit ideas and suggestions like yours to Adobe, they *do* pay attention and take very seriously any constructive piece of feedback they're given.
:)
Also, this (http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/03/28/lassostudio8/index.php) might be of use to you (speaking of MacCentral).
drewprops
2005-03-28, 19:25
I learned WYSIWYG web design from Pagemill and then from GoLive, and I thought that I knew "true" web design. Last year I bought Dreamweaver and discovered that I didn't; not because of the app but because of the project I decided to tackle. End result? I like both apps for different reasons. GoLive's palette's are friendlier for those with small screens, has a nifty tags view of the code and I liked its CSS handling better back with GL6.0.1 - Dreamweaver's deep code-friendliness is a boon and I'm lucky to own both.
I thought that I was itching to upgrade, but now I want to wait it out until August to upgrade, skip the bug cycle.
Glad news to be sure though!
Well, I think either tool is what you make it. Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "deep code friendliness?" GoLive's various Source Mode functionalities, and the CSS capabilities in particular are very powerful.
As noted earlier, MM's MX interface (in general) drives me up a wall (22" flat screen at 1280x1024).
I only care about photoshop and a bit of illustrator. Anything they add to make retouching faster and easier, makes me giddy...screw any other features it may have.
Ah, the zealotry of the hard-core photographic post-production guy... I know the symptoms well. After all, there's only two types of pixel-pushers in this world, the kind that push image pixels, and all the rest. Course, it doesn't hurt to place yourself squarely in both camps sometimes. :smokey:
Frank777
2005-04-03, 23:23
It's here! (http://www.adobe.com)
Frank777
2005-04-03, 23:38
Activation? They've gotta be kidding.
All right guys... the NDA is lifted... tell me what you want to know. :)
Does it suck? How fast is Photoshop compared to older versions?
Actually, I don't use the Creative Suite at all, so I have no specific questions. The above two seem to be easy ones to answer though. :)
No it most definitely does *not* suck. :)
How fast Photoshop runs on your machine is dependant upon the things it has always been dependant upon (RAM, Processor Type and Number, RAM, Scratch Disk, RAM, etc.). On my machine I would say it launches a tad faster but most existing operations are otherwise very similar speed-wise to the last version.
There is one new feature in particular that requires a lot of number crunching and so I suspect will be pretty sluggish on older hardware or laptop hardware. HDR (High Dynamic Range) images work by taking three or more exposures of the exact same scene (use a tripod or other level surface to hold your camera!) and combining the image data so that after some tweaking the highlights and shadows come together in one (32-bit) image.
This feature takes time, even on a dual G5, especially when you have 6 or more exposures (I recommend using at least 4 or 5 and separating the EV by at least 2/3 of a stop).
One other note: Photoshop can now address approximately 3 to 3.5 GB of RAM depending on how much your total amount is and what else is running. Don't ask me how they did it, but they did it (this won't change with Tiger).
Track_40
2005-04-04, 09:31
Finally Finally Finally.
Just placed my order.
:smokey:
I don't have a specific ship date, so don't ask me for one. :D
[snip]
Alll righty then. I'll take that as a complete lack of interest. Not that there isn't a ton of information posted since yesterday. Anyway this was fun while it lasted. You guys will enjoy the suite a lot; buy a copy if you got the "change" handy. You won't regret it.
Hey Moogs, I'm curious to whether the full-on suites will include copies of the printed manuals. Colour me nostalgic, but I like the tactile feel of a book.
Also, can you give a short review and/or rundown of this new perspective/scaling feature in Photoshop? Any chance it'll make it's way into After Effects? Inquiring mind wants to know. ;)
Thanks, man.
drewprops
2005-04-04, 22:33
You want Questions? You've got 'em!
10. Are the instructions now in an Acrobat document as they SHOULD be instead of defaulting to Inter-freaking-net Exploder?
9. Is the paint thing in Illustrator "Streamline Deluxe"? Is it as good as the plug-in Silhouette?
8. Is there a history palette in Illustrator now? (I didn't buy in for CS1, so if it's already in there please forgive my ignorance)
7. You probably don't know, but I wonder if the Filter-It Plugins work with Illustrator CS2.
6. Anything new in Illustrator's layers palette?
5. Are there any new save/export formats for Illustrator?
4. Can Indesign CS2 import/export the older Indesign formats which have previously been incompatible? Any special backwards compatibility with Pagemaker for those still dragging their heels?
3. GoLive CS2 should be fun. Does it now write cleaner code for people using out-of-the-box rollover graphics?
2. Any special new interaction with Wacom tablets?
1. Pricing. What if I own ALL of the disparate elements of the CS2 suite and want to buy the CS2 Premiere collection UPGRADE in one fell swoop? Do you know of a means of doing that?
These were questions that I didn't even think about. More sure to come later.
Oh yeah, what are some of the major BUGS that seem to still be in the apps?
4. Can Indesign CS2 import/export the older Indesign formats which have previously been incompatible? Any special backwards compatibility with Pagemaker for those still dragging their heels?OMFG. I can't believe I forgot this. Please tell me ID CS2 can open Quark 5-6.x files. Please.
1. Pricing. What if I own ALL of the disparate elements of the CS2 suite and want to buy the CS2 Premiere collection UPGRADE in one fell swoop? Do you know of a means of doing that? I'm in the same boat, and that was my impetus for my 'manuals' question. As I understand (I skipped CS1 as well) the individual programs come with proper printed manuals in the upgrade boxen. If this is still true I'll be ordering 'ala carte'. Cheaper in the long run, and I've never really been enamored to the idea of VersionCue...and I'll keep my stock photo purchases with the companies I can call up, thank you very much.
I upgraded to Photoshop CS, but have the previous versions of InDesign and Illustrator (also have an older version of GoLive but I don't think I'm interested in upgrading it). Would like to be able to get the $349 upgrade price for the standard Suite, but I guess that won't work. I have to pay $499 as if I only have Photoshop. It's actually $12 cheaper to upgrade all of the individual programs in the standard version than buying them packed together! Considering the lower price for future upgrades, however, I probably will get the package.
Sorry to add to the bitching about price. Seriously, though, Moogs, see what you can do on a price for me. :lol:
Alll righty then. I'll take that as a complete lack of interest. Not that there isn't a ton of information posted since yesterday. Anyway this was fun while it lasted. You guys will enjoy the suite a lot; buy a copy if you got the "change" handy. You won't regret it.
Au contraire mon frere! Lotsa interest here. Would you know the ed pricing on CS2 premium?
Hey Moogs, I'm curious to whether the full-on suites will include copies of the printed manuals. Colour me nostalgic, but I like the tactile feel of a book.
Ever heard of Peachpit Press? New Riders? :) Seriously, I have not heard anything definitive, but I believe the answer is no.
There is a new Help application from Adobe that replaces the old Browser-based system, that contains all the online help files as usual. Much more flexible than Apple's, it allows you to use a pop-up menu to access the "home page" for each installed component, and also it gives you a toolbar with buttons for the local home page, an index, bookmarks, printing, etc.
It is faster performance-wise than Apple's system and also has links to Adobe's professional help subscription services and free online resources. Anyhoo, you may be able to purchase paper manuals but I don't know how much more detailed they would be.
Also, can you give a short review and/or rundown of this new perspective/scaling feature in Photoshop? Any chance it'll make it's way into After Effects? Inquiring mind wants to know.
Vanishing Point is a very cool feature. What it allows you to do - essentially - is clone or extend a given textured surface area, with proper perspective. And by texture it can be anything: a graphic, glass windows, facade, brick, wood, ivy, stone, whatever. It's very powerful.
Let's say you have an old cobblestone street you photographed and about halfway down it turns to dirt, but you want it to look like it once was. The old way you probably make a polygon selection to simulate a perspective area you want to paint into, clone a starting point on the cobblestones and then starting filling in the selection. The result - even if you free transform it afterward - does not look right because the scale of the stones does not really get proportionally smaller, they just get smooshed / pinched.
This tool allows you to clone the stones in and Photoshop will automatically scale them based on the perspective grid you define. It's very cool and produces very realistic results. For example, you build a blueprint for a new deck extension to your house and using a photo of the existing deck, and a perspective plane you specify, you can clone it right in as if it were there already.
Architectural and interior photography geeks as well as photo-illustration buffs are going to love this one. As for After Effects I have no idea. That program is completely separate from the suite program.
You want Questions? You've got 'em!
Not so much wanted them as fully expected a barrage right away. Guess people had to let it all soak in. :) Now that you're all asking so many I wish you'd just go away. Kidding. :D
10. Are the instructions now in an Acrobat document as they SHOULD be instead of defaulting to Inter-freaking-net Exploder?
See my first answer above: everything is now a part of a new Adobe Help Application. It's all HTML based still, so no more exploder.
9. Is the paint thing in Illustrator "Streamline Deluxe"? Is it as good as the plug-in Silhouette?
Honestly I have not used that much; I use Illustrator mostly for web graphics, logo design and a few other specialized tasks. The impressions I got from other testers was that it is more powerful and flexible than Streamline. As for Silouette I do not have any basis to make that comparison. Sorry...
8. Is there a history palette in Illustrator now? (I didn't buy in for CS1, so if it's already in there please forgive my ignorance)
Nope. But there is a new Control Palette that is sort of like Photoshop's Options bar, only instead of using a well for docking extra palettes it uses contexts. Each time you click a new tool some of the fields and menu widgets in the palette will change, with them come little blue links that you can click. When you click them, the palette associated with the field in question pops down from the Control Palette. It's a little different than what we're used to but it's pretty cool too.
One thing I would like to see across the board though, is a Photoshop-quality History Palette -- even if the other apps use a slightly different or simpler version. GoLive is on the way, but it has a flaw in that it reacts to document modes by erasing every state it just recorded in the prior mode (in the palette only) every time you switch. :(
7. You probably don't know, but I wonder if the Filter-It Plugins work with Illustrator CS2.
No idea.... sorry.
6. Anything new in Illustrator's layers palette?
I would say there are no major differences, only contextual ones (placing files with Layer Comps, etc).
5. Are there any new save/export formats for Illustrator?
There are some added PDF features. As for the export menu, let me know what you're looking for and I'll tell you if it's there. :)
4. Can Indesign CS2 import/export the older Indesign formats which have previously been incompatible? Any special backwards compatibility with Pagemaker for those still dragging their heels?
It can't use InDesign 2 files directly but you can convert them. I brought a few home from work and did so successfully, though they were fairly simple documents with many image frames just acting as placeholders, etc Mostly had the text, wrapping and spot colors done so I can't say for sure how well it handles conversion of very complex files from ID 2. ID3 files it handles fine.
Quark: "InDesign can convert document and template files from QuarkXPress 3.3 or 4.1x. InDesign can also convert document and template files from multi-language QuarkXPress Passport 4.1x files, so there is no longer any need to save these files as single-language files first."
Pagemaker: "InDesign can convert document and template files from Adobe PageMaker 6.0 and later. When you open a PageMaker file, InDesign converts the original file information to native InDesign information."
Thing is with Pagemaker you need to make sure all your image links, broken fonts and the like are working before you convert.
3. GoLive CS2 should be fun. Does it now write cleaner code for people using out-of-the-box rollover graphics?
It is fun; I like GL 8 a lot (the CSS capabilities are unreal) and it is probably the app I spent the most time testing.
Not sure what your definition of "cleaner" is, but yes the rollovers GL 8 creates are very lean and flexible in how they can be applied. I've been doing several tests on "remote rollovers" in my site where rolling the mouse over the base image targets a different ID and it really works well.
In general there is a misconception that GoLive's rollover code / methods are not as fast as DW but that is not true based on my experiences. The rollover functionality in GL 8 is really solid. I will say almost all of my browser testing was done exclusively on Safari, Firefox and Omniweb so take it in those contexts.
2. Any special new interaction with Wacom tablets?
I think both Photoshop and Illustrator do but only Illustrator's Help files mention it specifically: "Expanded support for Wacom tablets Take advantage of new Wacom tablet features, including pressure tip and eraser, tilt two side switches, barrel rotation, and large felt-marker-shaped nib. Illustrator® CS2 has built-in support for the new Wacom Intuos3 tablet."
That said, I just used my tablet and stylus as I always have while testing, so I can't say I noticed any huge differences, but others might. Also I do not have an Intuos 3 yet so I may not be the best person to comment.
1. Pricing. What if I own ALL of the disparate elements of the CS2 suite and want to buy the CS2 Premiere collection UPGRADE in one fell swoop? Do you know of a means of doing that?
I do not. You mean all the disparate CS 1 elements? I would call Adobe directly and explain the situation. They may be willing (if you can prove you purchased all those elements) to give you the standard suite upgrade price.
These were questions that I didn't even think about. More sure to come later.
Feel free.
Oh yeah, what are some of the major BUGS that seem to still be in the apps?
I think that part is still under NDA. I'm unsure enough that I don't want to say something I shouldn't. I can tell you that in my opinion there are one or two new features that will probably require some tweaking in a point release but I wouldn't characterize them as "bugs". Just things that need more time to mature, but aren't so bad that it's worth delaying the product.
OMFG. I can't believe I forgot this. Please tell me ID CS2 can open Quark 5-6.x files. Please.
I have not tested this but in general see question #4 above. Logically, you'd think that if it can handle the older ones, it can handle the newer ones. However Quark may screw with the file formats so that it's *more* difficult with each new iteration. I really don't have any info on that specifically though.
I upgraded to Photoshop CS, but have the previous versions of InDesign and Illustrator (also have an older version of GoLive but I don't think I'm interested in upgrading it). Would like to be able to get the $349 upgrade price for the standard Suite, but I guess that won't work.
Mmm. Nope. It won't. :)
Sorry to add to the bitching about price. Seriously, though, Moogs, see what you can do on a price for me.
Oh you bet. I'll use my special beta-tester price vortex perks to ensure you only have to pay the $350. Hold your breath. :D
Au contraire mon frere! Lotsa interest here. Would you know the ed pricing on CS2 premium?
I don't know that the academic pricing has been set yet. I perused the Apple Edu store out of curiosity but the prices there look high to me, so I'm not sure what they will ultimately be.
Oh you bet. I'll use my special beta-tester price vortex perks to ensure you only have to pay the $350.
Wow! Thanks for private messaging the secret beta-tester price discount code! I can understand why you only get one of these to give away. Hope everyone else doesn't get jealous. :D
Can't wait to get my hands on this stuff, especially Vanishing Points. I'm guessing this is the way Adobe is using the Canoma stuff it acquired.
Wow! Thanks for private messaging the secret beta-tester price discount code! I can understand why you only get one of these to give away. Hope everyone else doesn't get jealous.
Oh no, they gave me several hundred discount keys to distribute freely around the world. You are nothing specia; sorry. :D
Can't wait to get my hands on this stuff, especially Vanishing Points. I'm guessing this is the way Adobe is using the Canoma stuff it acquired.
Uhm, never thought of it that way but possibly yes. :)
I am special. Someone once gave me my very own G-mail account.
Any idea if you can have the Vanishing Points grid show up in the final output?
Could you be more specific?
Kind of like this (which might just be a screen capture) from Creative Mac: http://images.digitalmedianet.com/2005/Week_15/s9443bf6/story/ps05-moregrid.jpg In other words, have the grid showing in the final image. I know its not something everyone would want, but I have a project I could use this on.
It's an intersting point. I can tell you that when you're done making your changes in the modal dialog and click OK, once you get back to your image the grids are gone. There are no "keep grid" options for now.
A dirt simple low-res way to get that is to simply enlarge the preview in Vanishing point before you click "OK", and take a screenshot. Otherwise you could place the image inside Illustrator and recreate the grid there for whichever look you want.
Sorry to revive an old thread but I was just wondering if I can get Indesign CS2 Premium full version for 200 dollars from my school but I want the Universal binary for use on my Mac Pro, should I buy it now at $200 and then just pay the upgrade fee when they release the UB of Indesign CS2? Or should I just wait for Indesign CS3 to be released and buy it then? Which do you all would end up being cheaper seeing as the upgrades are now $550? I guess that is still cheaper than the $1200 a full version is. Thanks for the input!
admactanium
2006-10-17, 22:36
i believe most academic versions of software are not eligible for upgrade pricing.
As of now, CS2 is only $400 for educational discount. I can't see CS3 being much more, but that is only a guess.
The apple store lists premium as $1200 but my University's computer store is offering it for $200. Where are you getting the $400 price from (just curious).
The apple store lists premium as $1200 but my University's computer store is offering it for $200. Where are you getting the $400 price from (just curious).
http://www.efollett.com/, my college's online bookstore.
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