Flash Memory-based iPod [Archive]

DMBand0026

2004-10-23, 11:00

I think I'm the only one who doesn't care for the idea much, but I certainly see its potential. If Apple comes out with this now, they won't be able to make enough because the demand for Christmas and the winter holidays will be astronomical.

But I see it cutting into Mini sales. :\

If it's priced right, $150 US or below, than they've got it right.

I won't buy one, but that's cause I'm already really happy with my 20 gig iPod. Holds all my music, and that's what I want.

pscates2.0

2004-10-23, 20:18

What's not to like about it, D? It's all Apple, what do you care if it cuts into the iPod mini?

Personally, if there's a enough of a capacity/price gap, I don't think it could.

What I'd like to see would be a 512-1GB model going for $99, the iPod mini going for $199, then the 20, 40 and (rumored) 60GB models filing out the $299, $399 and $499 spots respectively.

I think none of them would step on the other much at all. A nice $100 dividing each line. Students, teens, those with modest music collections, etc. would drop $99 LIKE CRAZY to have a few hundred songs with them. Then the iPod mini is still going to have its cool perch (small, stylish, reasonable capacity, etc.) and then those who have serious collections would have three full-size models to choose from.

What do you care if there's a super-affordable "anyone can get one now!" Flash-based iPod? It's all Apple. It's only helping the cause, build iTMS, spread iTunes, get Apple gear into MORE hands, etc.

I never understand people who poo-poo a company putting out something MORE compelling and attractive because it might compete with their [fill in the blank] that not everyone is able to afford.

:confused:

What kind of thinking is that?

:p

An iPod sale is an iPod sale. If it ever just got too lop-sided, then Apple is a big company and they're smart enough to adjust production OR make the mini a better, more enticing product via a hard drive bump and/or new color choices (purple, yellow and orange, for instance).

:)

There IS a market for a $99 1GB player, built on Apple's killer, standard-setting approach. It would just further cement their position, and lots of 15-year-olds or college students who can't manage to swing $249 can probably come up with $99 a lot easier!

It's not about if you don't "care about the idea much".

:D

It's about the selling the crap out of an already awesome, iconic product and getting it into thousands of more hands who haven't been able to participate so far, due to age and/or financial concerns.

kscherer

2004-10-24, 00:38

Other than 2.0's grammer, that is exactly what I am getting at. I have about 600 songs on my puter and I listen to about a third of them. A 1 gig flash-based iPod would hold what, 150-250 songs? PERFECT!

nowayout11

2004-10-24, 01:05

Don't get ahead on pricing. This happened when the Mini came out. People were expecting 2-4 gigs at a $150 price, and the Mini didn't even come close.

$100-150 only gets you 128 to 256MB flash players in the current market. Apple's not a price leader, and there's certainly no reason to undercut the entire market.

But I am waiting for a 1-2GB player. 512MB won't cut it for me; I might as well get a $30 CD player with MP3 support then.

Messiahtosh

2004-10-24, 10:10

The mini did undercut the overall market, remember people breaking open minis and then selling the hard drive for more money than the iPod itself?

Escher

2004-10-24, 10:54

What I'd like to see would be a 512-1GB model going for $99, the iPod mini going for $199, then the 20, 40 and (rumored) 60GB models filing out the $299, $399 and $499 spots respectively.

I would be first in line to buy a flash-based iPod at any price below the iPod mini's $250 tag, regardlesss of capacity. However, we should consider the competition's pricing on flash-based players for what is economically possible. $99 for a 512MB flash-based player of any brand, even from a lousy no-name Taiwan outfit, is completely unrealistic for 2004. I think that $200 for a 1GB flash-based iPod or $150 for a 512MB version is the very best case scenario we can hope for. Personally, if Apple gives us a flash-based iPod, I expect a 1GB model at the same price point as the iPod mini, i.e. $250 or $200 if they lower the price.

Other than 2.0's grammer, that is exactly what I am getting at.

kscherer: Don't criticize pscates' grammar when you can't spell yourself. It makes you look pathetic! Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;)

Bottom line: The market for an inexpensive flash-based MP3 player with the refined interface of the iPod would be huge. Let's hope Apple delivers sooner rather than later. ;)

Finally, my wife's trusty CD walkman gave up its ghost this week. This is the perfect time to buy her an iPod. Considering what is available now, I will probably order her a green iPod mini. She tried one at the Apple Store and immediately figured it out. The regular iPod is too big, IMO. But if Apple were to introduce a flash-based iPod at the U2 Music Event this Tuesday.... Please, Apple!

Escher

kscherer

2004-10-24, 11:16

kscherer: Don't criticize pscates' grammar when you can't spell yourself. It makes you look pathetic! Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;)

Escher
Grammar and spelling are two different things, ding dong! :D

pscates2.0

2004-10-24, 11:19

What about my grammar? I use slang (and often write words like "kinda" and "wanna") and might be guilty of a run-on sentence or three. But I believe I'm fairly well up on apostrophe use, the differences between "there" and "their", general spelling, "too/two/to", capitalization usage, acronyms, etc. (ALL of which I see frequently mangled on this board in pretty high numbers, but wouldn't be so graceless and shitheaded as to point it out, unless it was in the spirit of good-natured fun and joking with someone I felt friendly with).

:err:

kscherer, tell me where I need to improve and I'll certainly make the effort. I want my posts to pass muster.

BTW, it's "grammar" with an "a".

Nice going, professor.

BarracksSi

2004-10-24, 11:22

The mini did undercut the overall market, remember people breaking open minis and then selling the hard drive for more money than the iPod itself?

Well, that wasn't really the mp3 player market it undercut -- it was the tiny HD market. It dropped into the mp3 player market in a position where nobody else was selling anything.

pscates2.0

2004-10-24, 11:31

Grammar and spelling are two different things, ding dong! :D

Yes, of course. But when you ding one, it sure helps your case to back it up with the other, otherwise...well, it just comes across weird. And people tend to want to pile on, because you've just extended an engraved invitation to do so.

:\

Worry about your own yard.

kscherer

2004-10-24, 11:33

Yes, of course. But when you ding one, it sure helps your case to back it up with the other, otherwise...well, it just comes across weird.
Is there anything in here that isn't weird? :p

pscates2.0

2004-10-24, 11:43

Here, in this board/forum? Nope, guess not.

kscherer

2004-10-24, 11:55

Moving on now . . . ;)

The cost of Flash RAM is probably a titch too high at this time to offer 1GB versions for less than $150, especially when you consider that the click wheel needs to be integrated as well as the processor, display, battery, etc. But, if Apple can get a couple versions into the market at, say, 512MB for $99 and 1GB for $150-$175, then they would be rounding out their portfolio to cover every angle. One way or the other, Apple would pretty much put the rest of the music player market on their heals (as though they hadn't already done that).

Messiahtosh

2004-10-24, 13:52

If a company is buying flash devices in mass quantities, then certain prices are not as low as you may think.

nowayout11

2004-10-24, 23:41

All flash MP3 makers are buying in mass quantities. Apple's not going to be an extraordinary case just because they're Apple.

$99 for 512 is way underpriced for the market. That price is still largely 128 MB territory, and maybe 256 if the player is ghetto. I don't think we'd see 512 for anything under $150, if it were priced competitively.

Dave

2004-10-25, 04:16

If Apple releases a 1-2GB Flash Memory iPod, does that mean that I'll finally be able to boot OS X off of a RAM disk? Because back in the OS 7.x days, that would really speed up my Quadra.

Messiahtosh

2004-10-25, 09:13

bassplayinMacFiend

2004-10-25, 09:29

Simply untrue, Apple moves more portable music hardware than any other company.

Yea Apple makes mucho iPods, but right now how much of those sales involve compact flash RAM? None. So, no discounts for someone who hasn't ever bought your product before. Besides there is a global market for Flash RAM and Apple would be far from the only vendor ordering this RAM by the bucket-load.

Now checking at pricewatch, 1GB CF cards go for about $65 & up. Consider Apple can probably get this stuff in bulk for $50 or less. For a 1GB $99 device, that leaves a mere $49 for the rest of the electronics plus overheads. I think $149 would be closer to Apple pricing for this product since that gives them $99 for the click wheel, chipset, packaging, R&D, Sales&Marketing, etc. I still don't know if $99 is enough, but judging from Apple's desire for fat margins, I think they'd push the pricing on this right up to $199.

Messiahtosh

2004-10-25, 10:21

Again, simply untrue. Apple would get a better deal than anyone else because they have a proven track record at selling massive quantities of these products, which means repeat business and more buying contracts for flash storage in the future.

It does not matter what type of storage it is, as long as it sells wildly.

Manufacturers would be falling over themselves to get their product into an Apple branded device, they might even do it at cost for a little while, so as to ramp up production and retain a business relationship with a proven winner.

Believe it.

nowayout11

2004-10-25, 11:42

The back-and-forth can go on forever. Apple will still not undercut the rest of the market. Whatever discount they get will be absorbed by their bean counters insisting on big margins.

Messiahtosh

2004-10-25, 12:44

The back-and-forth can go on forever. Apple will still not undercut the rest of the market. Whatever discount they get will be absorbed by their bean counters insisting on big margins.They have repeatedly undercut the market with previous products, I don't see why it would be any different now.

nowayout11

2004-10-25, 13:18

They've also repeatedly sold at a premium, or at market price despite their "mass quantity purchases." iPods included.

Messiahtosh

2004-10-25, 13:23

They've also repeatedly sold at a premium, or at market price despite their "mass quantity purchases." iPods included.Like the iPod mini, with its drive being more expensive when sold separatley from the iPod itself?

Luca

2004-10-25, 13:35

Like the iPod mini, with its drive being more expensive when sold separatley from the iPod itself?
That doesn't have anything to do with undercutting the market. You don't compare an iPod mini to a 4 GB microdrive. Quite obviously, those two products occupy very different markets - one is in the small MP3 player market while the other is in the professional digital photography market.

Compare the iPod or iPod mini to the competition and you'll see that they are most definitely NOT undercutting. They're matching at best. I remember that a couple years ago, Apple was selling 5, 10 and 20 GB iPods for $300-$500. Meanwhile, Creative Labs was selling their "Zen" (one of the first major iPod competitors), which had 20 GB of storage, for $300. The iPod did better because the Zen sucked. The newer MuVo 4 GB player is around $200, but again, it isn't very successful because it sucks compared to the iPod.

Messiahtosh

2004-10-25, 14:25

madmaxmedia

2004-10-25, 15:37

No way does Apple do a 1 GB flash player for $150, I really don't think there's enough profit (even considering their prices.) Unless it's made out of plastic and has a crappy interface totally different from the iPod/iPod Mini.

More likely they do a 1 Gig flash player for $199 with the iPod Mini form factor. You could then scour the net for discounts and deals, and probably get it for $160 to 180 or so.

I am also basing this on Sony's new announcement-

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=581&e=1&u=/nm/20041025/tc_nm/tech_sony_music_dc

The NW-E99, which carries a suggested retail price of 240 euros (about $300), is sold with a one-gigabyte flash memory drive while the NW-E95 holds a 512 megabyte flash drive and sells for 200 euros.

While they are more pricey than the iPod Mini in euro terms and have smaller music storage capacity, the new Walkman devices have 70 hours of battery life and can hold 46 CDs worth of music.

I don't think the battery life is that big a deal, an Apple flash player would have great battery life as well (if not quite as long as 70 hours!) Actually, I would far prefer the current iPod Mini to those MORE EXPENSIVE Sony players...

Luca

2004-10-25, 16:02

You can say it doesnt undercut the market, but you also don't take into account the intangibles, like the interface and software.

My point is simply this, Apple could undercut the market by offering a 1 GB flash device for $150 because they could buy such a massive quantity of the flash drives.
You must not understand what "undercut" means.

To sell at a lower price than or to work for lower wages or fees than (a competitor).

Apple can be successful and beat out their less expensive competition by making a flash based iPod have an excellent interface and so on. But it's not undercutting anyone if it's $50 more than your average joe 1 GB flash player. It'll sell better because it will be very good and of course have the iPod name associated with it, but it won't be "undercutting" anything.

nowayout11

2004-10-25, 16:40

kscherer

2004-10-25, 16:54

This has turned into a very good disussion. Thank you! ;)

Keep this in mind: Apple has already designed the click wheel, has already designed the interface, has already designed the software, and they have most certainly already designed the computer-player interface. Therefore, the only thing left to design is the new case and the interface between the processor and the flash drive, which will be very similar to the HDD based models. Ultimately, the R&D expenses are already paid for (especially with the high profit margin from current iPods).

Apple has a tremendous sales history with the iPod and it stands to reason that any Flash-based player, regardless of capacity, is going to be a huge hit, provided Apple retains the interface and cool-factor. That means, as M-tosh stated, that Apple will have very good, if not exceptional, leveraging power for Flash devices and will likely get them on the cheap.

With cheapness of Flash and R&D already done, Apple could easily release this type of device at or near the $150.00 price range, possibly lower. At the same time, look for mini prices to drop to $200.00 and 5-6GB, while iPods remain at their current price range. Apple may even offer 2 or three capacities for "FlashPods" of 256MB ($99-$125), 512MB ($125-$150) and 1GB ($150-$175), although when you consider how much Stevie has bashed the smaller players, I highly doubt the 256MB version and the 512 may even be a long shot.

Escher

2004-10-25, 17:31

More likely they do a 1 Gig flash player for $199 with the iPod Mini form factor.

That's a reasonable price point and I would buy one in a second. I want a flash-based iPod so badly that I've considered purchasing an iPod mini and swapping out the 4GB HDD for a 1GB Flash card.

It's interesting to see Merrill Lynch on the flash iPod bandwagon (http://www.forbes.com/markets/2004/10/25/1025automarketscan07.html) now as well. However, they peg its introduction to the first half of 2005. Not anywhere close to the X-mas shopping season or my immediate purchasing needs.

I'm really curious to see how much Apple will have up its sleeve at the U2 Music Event tomorrow morning, on top of the obvious U2 iPod and new iTMS introductions.

Escher

pscates2.0

2004-10-25, 17:38

It's interesting to see Merrill Lynch on the flash iPod bandwagon (http://www.forbes.com/markets/2004/10/25/1025automarketscan07.html) now as well. However, they peg its introduction to the first half of 2005. Not anywhere close to the X-mas shopping season or my immediate purchasing needs.

That shouldn't surprise you! Apple never seems to have anything ready to go for the actual holidays, in the way of focused stuff that would really make great gifts!

:(

kscherer

2004-10-25, 17:51

From the Merryl Lynch prediction, most of us are being way too generous with our price predictions. And I would no more buy a 256MB iPod from Apple than from any other maker. Simply not enough storage. 1GB is about the limit. 250 songs would be awesome, but 60 is just as pathetic as the other guys' offerings. :grumble:

I expect that Apple will NOT offer less than 1GB of storage at a price near the competitors 512MB arena.

I do agree with Merryl on the first half 2005 prediction. I don't think Apple is going to do anything exiting tomorrow. U2 iPods will be just iPods with U2 music on them and, possibly, a different color. It's good that Apple is working with artists, but it's not orgasmic! Although I always keep my fingers crossed! :D

Messiahtosh

2004-10-25, 18:12

I think tomorrow may be more exciting than many of us are thinking. I'm expecting flash-based iPods tomorrow. Just in time for the hollidays and such.

I would not mind a 256 MB player, as long as it had the full fledged iPod interface. The key is it being able to link up with iTunes, so you can manage your playlists on it.

For some people, 60 songs is enough. I think it would appeal to the college student or gym buff. I mean, the mini is overkill for me, I listen to about 25 songs on it per day, at the most.

It is nice to have selection, but if you have limited space available, you can make pre-selections. ;)

gsxrboy

2004-10-25, 18:24

This talk of aacPLUS certainly makes a flash player a whole lot more interesting.

pscates2.0

2004-10-25, 18:42

Would that be a smaller file size, then? Is that the hook of it? Because yeah, that would help and factor in!

As for tomorrow, U2 are cool and all but I have to believe there's more to tomorrow than a U2 iPod (whoop-di-do) and some new European iTMS launches. I'm expecting either that 60GB photo-capable iPod that's been talked about everywhere and/or a Flash-based device (but I'm not exactly holding my breath...I can imagine the 60GB pPod easier than an all-new low-end product).

We'll see in about 18 hours.

Perhaps some more iTMS features in general (more indie labels, maybe even a Beatles announcement? Right...) :p

But seriously, maybe some new usability features and enhancements involving the store.

OH OH OH...there's always my orange, yellow and purple iPod mini additions!

:eek:

kscherer

2004-10-25, 18:57

I suppose the photo iPod could arrive, although I believe that will be about it. Apple tends to release just one thing at a time. No two big products show side by side.

And for M-tosh, Apple will NEVER release ANY player that doesn't sync right in with iTunes. Doing so would kill the functionality and the product. Smaller files would make a 256MB player more attractive, but hardly at $150-$200!

Paul

2004-10-25, 19:21

This is a fun thread to read with messiatosh blocked :) every third post or so is gone, but the posts show up in replies with the line "you are an ignorant bonehead" implied :lol: good stuff...

pscates2.0

2004-10-25, 19:29

I like my pricing structure of $99-$499, all products at $100 increments

fPod (hey!) at $99 (capacity up for debate)
iPod mini (bumped to, say, 6GB and three new colors) at $199
regular iPods from $299 and up

And yes, any iPod - regardless of price - can't be crippled in any way, in terms of its connection and interactivity with iTunes and the iTMS. Same interface, same synching, same controls (click wheel, among all three products), etc.

If they could do that, get them in places like Target, maybe bundle them with a $5-10 iTMS gift card, etc. Ohmigosh, they'd fly off the shelves, nonstop.

Talk about the perfect stocking stuff or gift for someone. My Christmas shopping would be done in about 12 minutes.

:D

I'd love to see Apple come out blazing tomorrow. They've released multiple products several times, kscherer. And since this was a focused, all-iPod/iTMS type of event, I don't think it would strike anyone as weird if they released two models. It's all the same family. No one's going to stand up and go "this sucks...they're not supposed to do this!"

:p

The realist in me, however, tends to say "U2 iPod, European iTMS launches, some new labels/artists added and not much else".

:(

They'll put all this focus into a niche product like a U2 iPod (they're popular, but I don't see gazillions of people running out to get one) but totally ignore pursuing a cool $99 product.

:D

Kinda like when they unveiled the Flower Power and Blue Dalmation iMacs. There was just this odd "What the &#@%? Who wanted, or asked for, this?!?" vibe.

I could see a U2 iPod selling a few thousand units worldwide (being generous here), so sometimes I wonder about Apple's priorities.

"Let's take a group that nearly everyone agrees isn't as great or popular as they once were, slap their logo and a few of their albums on an iPod, paint it black, charge an extra $79. Cool? Huh, what's that? A Flash iPod? For $99-149? Affordable for the millions of music-loving teens and students? Get the hell outta here...who asked you!"

:confused: :err:

Messiahtosh

2004-10-25, 20:00

You're right Paul, it will have limited appeal. Seems a bit strange, but it's probably a statement by both outfits more than anything. Apple is showing off their position and rank in the world of online music distribution, by teaming up with a major name, and U2 gets ridiculously good press and momentum for their next album.

kscherer

2004-10-25, 20:01

P2.0: I mentioned two BIG products, and cannot remember when they have done it. One software thing, one hardware thing. Perhaps you can refresh me on that one. I simply do not remember.

U2 iPods will sell well as nostalgia items for a bit, and I don't think their cost will be an extra $79.00. The price for the album ($10.00) will be about it. Maybe $20.00 for custom logo crap engraved on the back. U2 has a HUGE fan base, regardless of how much you or I like them, and the idea will be popular to many. Although why you would pay $400 smackers for a U2 album . . .????????? :confused:

And that will be it. Nothing else. Remember the frustration of the past with new releases? WWDC ring a bell? How about MacExpo? U2 iPod. New music stores for Europe. Leave us hanging for MacWorld 2005. :grumble:

pscates2.0

2004-10-25, 20:52

P2.0: I mentioned two BIG products, and cannot remember when they have done it. One software thing, one hardware thing. Perhaps you can refresh me on that one. I simply do not remember.

Well, I'll go through the press releases (or you can too, at apple.com/pr). I'm not sure. Your definition of "big"? At MWSF 2003, they released the 12" and 17" PowerBooks, Safari, iLife, AirPort Extreme and Final Cut Express. That's kinda big. In April 2003, all new iPods and the iTMS. June 2003, G5, iSight, Safari 1.0. And so on. To me, those are "big items in one show/event", but you might have a different perception.

In any case, a 60GB photo iPod and a ~1GB Flash iPod, both released tomorrow, wouldn't strike me as anything but "cool! Right on, Apple!". Add in the U2 thing, iTMS announcements, etc. Makes for quite an event that everyone would probably enjoy and be really happy with.

U2 has a HUGE fan base, regardless of how much you or I like them, and the idea will be popular to many.

I realize that...that's why I said "several thousand worldwide" (as opposed to saying "33 in Dublin - four to Mr. and Mrs. Hewson, Evans, Mullen and Clayton, proud parents all - and another 72 everywhere else". :D

You're not expecting some wild-ass high number like 780,000 are you? I'd be shocked if there was that much demand. I just can't imagine. Like Messiahtosh said, it is what it is. Looks good for Apple to throw in with such an iconic band. And U2 is looking at an upcoming album release. This only helps.

Although why you would pay $400 smackers for a U2 album . . .????????? :confused:

I wouldn't. :) But all those fans you reference would, I guess? Some of them? The ones who can afford to? It'll be a brisk seller, as the holidays approach. And the diehard U2 fans will certainly latch on. But I think it'll blaze brightly, then quickly ebb, going into 2005.

BarracksSi

2004-10-25, 21:07

I figure that a black iPod should be loaded up with some songs by The Cure.

;)

kscherer

2004-10-25, 21:37

We all have our favorite bands and would probably all get giddy if ours came with its own spiffy iPod. U2 iPods will be like an iPod on 97 Octane until Xmas is over and then it will be the "easy to find, U2 iPod on eBay" thing. It'll do well and Apple is setting yet another standard for the rest to follow (and they will).

P2.0, you and I do have a different perspective on "Big releases". To me, a PowerBook is a PowerBook is a PowerBook. And software is generally not a big thing, unless it changes the world like iMovie or iTunes. Safari is just another web browser a smitch better than the others, etc. To me, big is a 3Ghz G5 AND a G5 PowerBook in the same show. A flash-based iPod would be big while a U2 iPod is just so-so! A photo-iPod is also just so-so. Unless it has a built in digital camera to make it WOW! Otherwise, what's the point. "This is me and the kids on the beach" in 2-inch resolution, "you can't see the shells 'cause they're too small in this picture". :rolleyes: (rolleyes for M-tosh :) ). But, like you said, different perspectives.

kscherer

2004-10-25, 21:37

I figure that a black iPod should be loaded up with some songs by The Cure.

;)
So buy an iPod, paint it black and, well . . . :D

709

2004-10-25, 22:00

P2.0, you and I do have a different perspective on "Big releases". To me, a PowerBook is a PowerBook is a PowerBook. And software is generally not a big thing, unless it changes the world like iMovie or iTunes. Safari is just another web browser a smitch better than the others, etc. To me, big is a 3Ghz G5 AND a G5 PowerBook in the same show. A flash-based iPod would be big while a U2 iPod is just so-so! A photo-iPod is also just so-so. Unless it has a built in digital camera to make it WOW! Otherwise, what's the point. "This is me and the kids on the beach" in 2-inch resolution, "you can't see the shells 'cause they're too small in this picture". :rolleyes: (rolleyes for M-tosh :) ). But, like you said, different perspectives.Spec Whore!!! :p

kscherer

2004-10-25, 22:04

Spec Whore!!! :p
Somebody's gotta do it. :)

Satchmo

2004-10-25, 22:19

Frankly I don't see the big deal with artist endorsements and all. I mean it's cool for the time being, but unless you're a rabid U2 fan, it's just a whole lot of fluff and no substance.
Especially if it's merely an iPod painted black.

However, if this U2 iPod is indeed a flash based iPod, then it's a different beast altogether. Maybe it's a limited edition run of 10,000 U2 branded flash-pods, with the remaining run being simply black without a logo.

And am I dreaming, but didn't Apple already try this artist thing with iPods earlier? I seem to recall some kind of choice engravings with the likes of Madonna.

Escher

2004-10-25, 22:20

This is a fun thread to read with messiatosh blocked :) every third post or so is gone, but the posts show up in replies with the line "you are an ignorant bonehead" implied :lol: good stuff...

:lol: Exactly the same view here. Thank goodness I'm not a moderator who is forced to read his garbage. God bless the Ignore List! ;)

I'm crossing my fingers for a Flash iPod, but not holding my breath.

Sweet dreams everyone. :)

Escher

kscherer

2004-10-25, 22:25

Ultimately, it costs Apple's hardware division very little money to do something like this. There is only a bit of superficial stuff on the iPod's exterior: color, etching, whatever. It might cost a bit to sign the artist up, or the artist might sign up for squat, if they like what Apple is doing.

What it does is create a tremendous amount of excitement amongst the music industry. If U2 is doing this, Apple must be doing something right. Everyone wants to be part of that success, whether engineers or musicians or labels or fools like us willing to cough up big money for small things. As we have seen in the last few years, it doesn't take much to get the little iPod world drooling all over itself. I have a feeling we will be seeing this kind of stuff from Apple for quite a while.

By the way, I wonder if this big music party might have something to do with more Car Audio?!?! :D

pscates2.0

2004-10-25, 22:39

Yes! iPod Your Saturn is what I'm looking for! :p

But seriously, that's a good point because didn't Steve say there would be more "automotive iPod partnerships and products" in the coming months? Words to that effect? Maybe Apple has thrown in with GM or Ford or Mercedes? Or several others? Quite a few others? To offer some nice in-car solutions?

I do have to say, ever since I received that Griffin RoadTrip, having your iPod in the car really changes what it's like to travel. It's quite nice having your entire library with you (instead of making 12-16 song mix CDs and toting 10 of them around, constantly swapping them out, etc.).

That's a huge, untapped market that I don't think has fully grasped how wonderful it is to have all their music with them in the car. With radio being as hit or miss as it can be these days, what's better than having 4,500 songs you KNOW you love? As more people get their head around that (and Apple works to make it a more commonplace thing), this will be huge.

In fact, I rarely fool with my car radio much anymore. Drop the iPod in the RoadTrip cradle, fire up "Paul's Driving Music" playlist and step on the gas.

:D

I've got "Aimless Saturday Drive", "After Work", "Morning Commute", "Drive In The Country", "Nighttime Cruise", "Wanna Go Fast", etc. playlists, to match any situation.

I'm never without the perfect music.

Messiahtosh

2004-10-25, 23:01

I have one playlist, it's called, "What I Want Now." ;)

kscherer

2004-10-26, 00:25

I have one play list, too. It's called "Don't shoot the jerk in the blue Ford" :D

pscates2.0

2004-10-26, 09:52

Is today's event slated to be webcast? I'm guessing not, otherwise there would be more talk about it. So what's the deal with following what's going on? Will maccentral.com or another major player have real-time coverage?

And will Apple make this available to view on their site later on today or this week? It would be kinda cool to watch it.

Satchmo

2004-10-26, 11:09

When is this U2 iPod suppose to be unveiled? It's 12 noon E.S.T. and no word of anything yet.

pscates2.0

2004-10-26, 11:22

The event takes place at 10am PST (1pm EST), so you've got about 40 minutes before it even begins. Most likely, the online store will go down during the event, then come back up afterwards with new goodies displayed and available (and a possible new front page at apple.com).

I figure by 3pm EST (at the latest) we'll all see what's what (not sure how long this event is slated to last...maybe 90 minutes or so?)

kscherer

2004-10-26, 11:45

My guess is it will last a bit longer. U2 will likely put on a short concert and sign autographs and such. Jobs will probably be there to put on his Steve-thing :cool: and they will probably film it for viewing tomorrow or something.

I still think it isn't gonna be that big. But I really hope I'm wrong. :\

kscherer

2004-10-26, 11:58

The Apple store is down! You know what that means! :D

aelix

2004-10-26, 12:48

Loooong time lurker, first time poster.

...trying not to keep my expectations too high. A U2 iPod doesn't interest me a bit. A budget flash iPod is very tempting however. I got a 10GB iPod when I purchased my Powerbook, but I sold it as its monetary value was greater than the little time I actually used it.

Crusader

2004-10-26, 12:54

Stupid AIM kicked me out of the AppleNova chat. Thanks, AOL.

:mad:

But anyway, where is the news? I'm on pins and needles here!

Crusader

2004-10-26, 13:20

So...I see U2, but no Flash-a-riffic iPods... always next week?

Crusader

2004-10-26, 13:21

<Chris sees Photo iPod...craps pants>

Cool

:D

blissed

2004-10-26, 14:25

nice. photos on the ipod. i wish they'd add wi-fi.

Satchmo

2004-10-26, 21:05

kscherer

2004-10-26, 21:51

With the today's introductions, were we all dreaming too much for a low end flash based iPod?

Perhaps Apple doesn't even want to go down that path...ever. Instead, position the the mini iPod as the absolute lowest capacity, low end model. And at some point drop it's price to $199.
Possibly. But I think Apple is working on something else, smaller and cheaper. They wouldn't be fools not to, but they would be missing out on another huge market.

pscates2.0

2004-10-26, 22:15

Well, we've all kinda agreed that $99 might be a bit unrealistic, right? We've all pretty much settled on a $149 price for a new "lower end" iPod?

What if, instead, the mini was bumped to, say, 6 or 8GB and lowered to $199 and some new colors added?

It's just $50 more than the $149 we all kinda settled on for a 1GB Flash-based device. Would people be cool with spending an extra $50 ($199) to get a 6GB device, in snazzy colors, a light, sleek design, etc.?

Part of me thinks so.

Just perhaps busting that psychological barrier of $200 and upping the capacity to 1,500-2,000 songs in your pocket, that might be quite enticing. If the $99 mark can't be made (and if it is, it's with a 256MB capacity which I just don't see Steve going for), then maybe the thing to do is just make the iPod mini a more affordable, desirable product? It'll hit its one-year birthday in January, so at some point it's going to have to grow beyond 4GB. And I say bring on orange, yellow, purple and a nice red. With those nine colors, you'd have pretty much everyone covered in the color department.

Maybe that's the approach, rather than a low-capacity player with an unrealistic $99 price?

And if bumping the capacity AND lowering the price to $199 is just not possible, then I'd opt for the price cut (keep the 4GB, but sell it for $199, because that's still a good deal over a $149 1GB player!). The colors, design, iPod name, etc. is the extra icing on the cake.

Just listening to Steve today, a couple of comments he made and how he made them, makes me think they have no plans to pursue a Flash-based product. And if not, then we have to deal in reality and set aside whatever WE think we might like. In that video, he says something like "even the Flash-mp3 players people get as gifts and never use...", along with another comment elsewhere that just made me think "he's not interested in that $99, ~1GB market...".

Messiahtosh

2004-10-27, 02:58

You're right Paul, either he's dissing it because he's pitching the opposite of what that market represents and he has nothing to fill that niche with, or he truly believes what he's saying and has market data to back up his position on the matter.

I think now too, like you, that the 6-8 GB iPod mini for $199 is a more reasonable approach to the "low end" of the iPod line.

Paul

2004-10-27, 08:22

Steve has been on record saying that the 4gig iPod Mini (1000 songs) is the low end of the iPod scale... but that doesn't mean I don't want a flash iPod. Solid state has a bunch of advantages over HD based storage, not the least of which is durability...

I hope steve reconsiders his "hard" minimum for iPod storage...

when the minis do get updated, if they are dropped in price (which is unlikely, given the crazy demand) look for the 4giger to drop to $199 and the new model to stay at $249 or higher. :(

cheap apple gear is VERY rare, I would be surprised if they get any cheaper, BUT THEY MUST.

I have an ad from a 1982 december playboy for Sony's Walkman line, when I get some time I will scan it in. It has 9 separate models, and shows that if Apple wants the iPod to get big, they need to make more models...
Yesterday's announcements are a step in the right direction, but a cheap flash-based player would be a good idea, even if it "diluted" the iPod brand even a little. The volume and mind/market share (iTunes AND hardware) they would get as a result would be worth any perceived loss.

I do think that the low-end on the flash players should be 1Gig tho...

nothing to do but wait and see.

pscates2.0

2004-10-27, 08:30

I'm evenly split on the whole issue, after yesterday and giving things more thought.

IF a Flash-based player in the 512MB-1GB range could be done for $99-149 (but not one penny more), then I'd be cool with that. Otherwise, go with what I said above and make the 4GB iPod mini Apple's entry-level music player at $199 (justify it with some snazzy new colors, perhaps a bundled $10 gift card and an autographed picture of Phil Schiller or something). :p

$99 is ideal (anyone can swing that), but if you go to $149 (for 1GB), then my thinking is "hell, just go another $50 and get 4GB".

But, deep down, I do hate the idea of locking a huge number of people out of the fun and games (teens, students, people on tight budgets, those with modest music libraries, someone just looking to spend $100 for something to take while walking or at the gym, etc.). I don't know how many of them are willing - or able - to spend $249. I hate the idea of a huge segment going unserved, because it could only mean good, positive stuff for Apple if everyone was able to get their hands on a $99-149 Apple music device. But if it (Flash-based devices with only 512MB-1GB capacity) runs counter to their overall philosophy, then that's how it's gonna be I suppose.

At LEAST make an effort, then, to break that $200 barrier. It's only $50, I realize, but to so many people, $199 sounds light years away from $249. It's psychological.

:D

But I don't know. Actually, I should probably go look around and see what's out there in terms of Flash-based mp3 stuff, in terms of prices and capacity. I don't really know, to be honest, since I don't pay attention to anyone else's offerings (why should I?).

Who are some makers/brands of these things? Who's popular besides Apple?

Escher

2004-10-27, 08:48

It's just $50 more than the $149 we all kinda settled on for a 1GB Flash-based device. Would people be cool with spending an extra $50 ($199) to get a 6GB device, in snazzy colors, a light, sleek design, etc.?

That's been Apple's line all along. Why buy a $200 flash player when you can get a $300 iPod with ten or twenty times the capacity? That logic makes sense for most people. But for others, the absence of moving parts and the longer battery life of a flash-based player would outweigh the higher per-GB cost.

As I've said before, I would pick a 1GB flash-iPod over the 4GB HDD-based iPod mini at the same price. I suspect that other iPod users who value robustness and long battery life would do the same, if Apple offered them the choice. Because I want a flash-based player and Apple doesn't offer one, I am still considering a 512MB Rio Forge (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002UB2Q4/qid=1098884837/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1_etk-audio-video/102-6285329-2584111?v=glance&s=electronics&n=1065836) ($170 at Amazon).

Except that Apple has me by the balls because some of my music is encoded in AAC... :\

Escher

kscherer

2004-10-27, 16:51

Well, we all know that Apple has never really tried to fill the low-end market with anything. I remember paying $2700 for a Performa 6300CD, and that was near their low-end at the time. I do, however, believe that Apple, and especially Steve, want to not just dominate the online music market, they want to command its every move! I suspect that Apple is toying with Flash players down to near $99. Even if people do huck 'em in a drawer, I bet Apple would still like to sell a couple million per quarter! :D