View Full Version : Any published authors on here?
I apparently have a call with an editor in the morning concerning a technical textbook I've been working on for a while, and it strikes me... I have no idea what I'm doing.
Anyone on here have any experience in the publishing industry, either side of it? What advice would you give to someone who is about to enter the viper's den? Pros? Cons? Publishing houses to avoid? Ones to court? What's a reasonable set of compensation terms?
Halp.
Anyone on here have any experience in the publishing industry, either side of it?
I know "a little bit" about the publishing industry, but any advice I give would be "a little" biased. ;)
Hey, go for it, man. :D I know you're at lulu.com, so consider yourself disclosed. :)
Define "published." Novel? Essay? A short story in a "little magazine"?
curiousuburb
2009-08-12, 17:33
I think a 'technical textbook' limits the pool already. Who publishes in your genre or specialty?
http://www.images-graphics-pics.com/signs/books/dummies/default.aspx?pic=&tag=2012&text=Technical+Acronyms&text2=CD%2FDVD%2FBD+with+PEBKAC+FAQ+LOL&text3=TAANSTAAFL%0D%0AWYSIWYG%0D%0ASTFU+and+more%0 D%0A&move=&move2=&mover=11&mover2=&font=adventure&color=white&book=N00B&timer=1902&allow=488&title=OMGWTFBBQ%21%21%21%21%21
It's a textbook on software engineering and design patterns. Publisher is Pearson (Addison-Wesley, Safari Online, etc).
While that is kind of limited, I'm interested in any experiences or advice folks might have with publishing in general... I'm a total n00b.
Basically, I'm curious about the editorial process, contracts, etc, etc.
What advice would you give to someone who is about to enter the viper's den?
I'm not really familiar with the textbook market, so this is just super-general advice. I hope it helps...
I recommend almost everybody try to court an agent, but the textbook market might be totally different. (Some markets, like poetry, are totally unagented.) So first I'd advise you to get thee a book on publishing! Just a general overview, a la A Complete Idiot's Guide to Publishing Your Book, or maybe one specific to textbooks, if you can find one. Libraries tend to have lots of books on writing/publishing. As an added bonus, you'll essentially be studying a published textbook!
What's a reasonable set of compensation terms?
We'll start from the beginning. A definition of terms:
Royalty - the cut you get out of every book sold
Advance - "guaranteed" money you get before the book is published. Usually the royalty for the initial print run of the book. So your royalty account essentially starts off in a hole, and you have to "earn" your advance first before you get future royalties. For example:
My Amazing Novel catches the attention of publishers. My agent (who I got because they know way more about selling books than I do) holds an auction, and two publishers bid against each other for the rights to publish My Amazing Novel. The winning bid will include an advance, and royalty rate and the size of the initial print run will usually be decided later. We'll say My Amazing Novel gets an initial print run of 25,000, and my agent and I earn $2 per book. I will receive $50,000 (less my agent's commission) up front, but I will need to sell 25,001 books before I start making any more money. (It's the advances, and not the recurring royalties after them, that make up the bulk of many authors' incomes. A book doesn't have to totally sell out its initial print run to be considered a "success.")
The royalty/advance system is the system for nearly all published works, including textbooks, with the exception of books written for hire (for a flat fee). Harry Potter earns J. K. Rowling a royalty; crappy paperback Magic: The Gathering novels are written for hire. Some textbooks will probably fall in each category, but if you wrote a textbook and are now trying to publish it, you're working in the royalty/advance system. If an editor approached you and offered you $X (with no future royalties) to write Y, you're writing for hire.
How much is a fair royalty? That's hard to say. Depending on the publisher, your royalty will be calculated based on list price or purchase price (after discounts) - switching between these two systems is not normally up for debate in the typical book contract signing sessions. Purchase price royalties tend to be higher (percentage-wise), since many books are purchased below list. For My Amazing Novel above, I assumed 10% based on the list price of a $19.99 hardcover. If there's an intense bidding war, or you're a celebrity author, that number could go up to...well, anything, really. An agent that specializes in the textbook market would know far more about what to expect than I would.
Agents in the US almost universally collect 15% of your advance and royalties. Agents in the UK collect 10%, the lucky bastards. They're worth it, IMO, even if you're already in contact with a publisher. (In fact, if you already have a publishing deal, you can still go back and get an agent to help you with the negotiation process, but they should be getting less than 15% at that point.)
Agents should work solely on commission - they should not get their income from "reading fees" or selling you services to book doctors (which they receive kickbacks from). They should make their money by selling your book, not by making you buy services. Agents sometimes cap the cost of supplies (postage, copies) and bill any amount over, say, $300 to the author; this is reasonable (if they agree to take it out of your eventual royalties, as they should, it's even a bit of a show of confidence). But they should not be pushing you to go to a book doctor right out of the gate.
There's a lot of crappy agents out there. But they're invaluable (if textbooks are an agented market).
Listen to any editor - they're the ones you need to please - but don't let them take you for a ride. Editors need authors, all publishers need authors, no matter how poorly they treat them sometimes.
If you do get a book deal, try to remove any joint accounting clause from it. You know how I said that, with the advance, each book starts out in the "hole"? Joint accounting means that if you publish a second book with that house, they will share that same hole - so if you still haven't "earned back" $2,000 of your previous advance, they'll make you "earn back" that, and your new advance, before you start getting royalties. Each book should stand on its own. Many houses also try to get first refusal rights, meaning you have to submit your next book to them first; these are a bad idea with your first book because you don't know how they're going to really treat you or your book yet. A multi-book deal is, of course, entirely different.
Hope that helps!
curiousuburb
2009-08-12, 18:18
Textbooks are their own ecosystem. Texas sets many trends for curricula, Arnie wants CA to look at digital books, blah blah...
edit: ah, Robo probably covered this better than I
Generally, a contract might specify royalty rates for hardcover, softcover, and international/translated editions. How optimistic/realistic/pessimistic are those numbers today/5yrs/etc?
A portion up front as advance is possible, with benchmarks or distribution thresholds possible for later achievement... but the larger the advance is, the lower the royalty rate tends to be.
Many authors publicize their books to drive sales... not sure how much of that happens in the world of textbooks.
In your case, it might be work seeking out an agent who specializes in textbooks for advice on particular quirks or industry assholes.
Is yours a 'fundamentals' text which will be evergreen, or is it a subject in flux with built-in need for updated editions?
Generally, a contract might specify royalty rates for hardcover, softcover, and international/translated editions.
I would hope that the contract would specify the royalty rates. :eek: :lol: But I get what you're saying. Some houses take a "wait and see" approach to paperbacks; some plan for them (WRT royalties, if nothing else) up front. The days of making a "paperback sale" to another house (as Stephen King did with Carrie) seem to be pretty much over.
Basically, the boilerplate contract will give the publisher rights to publish your book in English all over the world, and it will give them the right to contract out translations, and it will give them excerpt rights, and the film/television/drama rights, and the rights to the e-book edition and the audiobook edition and the braille edition...
You can negotiate to keep those rights, of course. It's all a negotiation, which is why an agent (or at least a publishing lawyer) is so important - I don't know of a single published author who advises against getting one, and I'm talking about people who have paid their agents millions of dollars. The agent is someone who's on your side - they have just as much of an interest in those rights as you do. If the agency has branches in Hollywood, they'd rather farm out film rights themselves, earning them and you more money, &c.
A portion up front as advance is possible, with benchmarks or distribution thresholds possible for later achievement.
I forgot to mention that. Royalty rates aren't fixed and immutable; they can change throughout the life of the book (even before it goes paperback, whatever) depending on how it's selling. They do need to follow the benchmarks and thresholds set forth in the contract, though. You should have the right to an audit if you think you're getting scammed (an agent would probably notice this before you).
On the first part, I would argue that an advance is a minimum professional standard for a published book, because it gives the publisher a vested interest in its success. If you are interested in the traditional publishing model (not self publishing), avoid anyone giving you no advance, or especially a nominal ($1) one, like the plague. These are not publishers; they are POD vanity presses pretending to be publishers. There's nothing wrong with POD but they shouldn't also try and claim the rights of publishers (they shouldn't ever keep the rights to your book, for example). Compare PublishAmerica with angelic Lulu.
In your case, it might be work seeking out an agent who specializes in textbooks for advice on particular quirks or industry assholes.
Again, I have never heard a published author, in an agented market, advise against getting an agent. Ever.
Fundamentals of software design, actually... ie, where there's a BIG GAPING HOLE in the literature. So this should have the same sort of legs as, say, the original Design Patterns text, which is coming up on 15 years. I hope. :D
Robo, thank you - that's the sort of publishing for dummies I needed.
I feel like I've skipped over a few of the steps... this was originally my dissertation (ie, I have 400 pages to pull material from, so a lot of it is already written in better than rough draft form), I got introduced to an editor at A-W through a colleague, and in one week I've gone from "oh hey, I should do this" to having a call with said editor in the morning to discuss next steps. That was my cue to find out what the hell I was getting into. (Especially since he also mentioned a video series?!? WTF??)
I appreciate any and all info/advice/wisdom, guys.
I feel like I've skipped over a few of the steps... this was originally my dissertation (ie, I have 400 pages to pull material from, so a lot of it is already written in better than rough draft form), I got introduced to an editor at A-W through a colleague, and in one week I've gone from "oh hey, I should do this" to having a call with said editor in the morning to discuss next steps. That was my cue to find out what the hell I was getting into. (Especially since he also mentioned a video series?!? WTF??)
Good luck!
Editors are very busy people. Any book you read on publishing (usually written by editors) will spend about a chapter emphasizing how busy editors are. ;) But you're the author, you wrote the damn thing, and you should feel "in the loop" and okay with how things are going. Don't feel shy about asking questions, expressing concerns, &c., especially when you're already on the phone. Any book on publishing (hint, hint) will give you a nice little set of questions to ask.
But the best part of getting an agent is that you have an agent to bug the editor about all the things that are bothering you, while you get to sit quietly and smile and make the editor Totally Like You (which is important - publishing is, like all businesses, a People Business).
So... you're saying I should get an agent? I'm not sure, you're so subtle on that point... :D
I'll definitely look into it, thanks, if I can just get over my control freak nature. :) I'll let you know what I find out tomorrow. Hell, he may pawn me off on another imprint, for all I know at this point. Maybe I need to flutter my eyelashes at him. (Do you think I have time for a boob job? Too much too soon?)
Also, Brad... don't think I didn't consider Lulu in all of this. I asked my colleague for his advice, and next thing you know I'm talking to a publisher. Yoiks. If it doesn't work out, or it seems hinky, lulu is my next stop. ;)
My eldest sister is a novelist. I don't know if this applies to the technical non-fiction market, but she says the best advice she ever got was to get a damned good agent. Having someone who makes money if you make money is so useful when you're trying to get a publisher. Good luck!
So... you're saying I should get an agent? I'm not sure, you're so subtle on that point... :D
I'm not super familiar with how the textbook business is run - it might be more straightforward. But for any other sort of book, yes yes oh god yes.
Agents are an author's best friend.
I'll definitely look into it, thanks, if I can just get over my control freak nature.
If you have a control freak nature, as I do - my book is my baby, and I am its domineering parent - I would think getting an agent would be more important. They are, again, on your side, so if you have any gripes about the cover/typeface/anything you can tell your agent, who can bitch to the editor on your behalf (while you still look like a perfect angel). Or if they think that the editor is right on something and knows better than you (which might happen, sometimes, idunno, you did make a fancy-pants dissertation) they can break the news to you in a kinder, gentler way, and maybe work towards a compromise.
Let me put it this way: WRT to control, you're probably better off with an agent than just with an editor. But you do pay for that, of course.
I do have published books, but they are of this ilk http://www.amazon.com/Bessie-Revised-expanded-Chris-Albertson/dp/0300107560/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250123777&sr=1-1 and I think textbooks are handled differently.
BTW, I have had very bad experience with literary agents, so I did this last one on my own, dealing directly with the publisher (Yale University Press)
Chris
Also, Brad... don't think I didn't consider Lulu in all of this. I asked my colleague for his advice, and next thing you know I'm talking to a publisher. Yoiks. If it doesn't work out, or it seems hinky, lulu is my next stop. ;)
No skin off my back! :) I'll be the first to admit that there are big differences in POD and traditional publishing and that neither one is the perfect solution for everyone. Generally, the former assumes you want (and can handle) full control of every little thing from typefaces and margins to marketing and publicity, whereas the latter assumes you don't want that control (or responsibility) and are instead interested in paying someone else to handle them.
Sounds like Roboman has said pretty much anything else I could possibly think to say on the subject. :p
No skin off my back! :) I'll be the first to admit that there are big differences in POD and traditional publishing and that neither one is the perfect solution for everyone. Generally, the former assumes you want (and can handle) full control of every little thing from typefaces and margins to marketing and publicity, whereas the latter assumes you don't want that control (or responsibility) and are instead interested in paying someone else to handle them.
Of course, the hard part is when you have a semi-professional existence in both the writing and graphic/book design fields, and you have to convince the Big Publishing Company that you're not just a silly little author who needs to run along and clarify tenses while the Professional Graphic Artists do their thing. :mad: :mad: :mad:
But there's ways around that. ;) My favorite is to essentially dictate the design of the book in the text. Not, like, in a "This book is set in Helvetica, which symbolizes..." sort of way (because they'd just as easily make you change that to Garamond) but if there's something specific you want on the cover, you can basically write the book in a way that the Professional Cover Designer can't possibly choose anything else. :D I think of it as...making their work easy for them. :p
This is far easier for fiction, of course. For textbooks, you're kind of on your own.
ezkcdude
2009-08-13, 07:11
I learned everything I know about publishing from watching Californication. :lol:
SpecMode
2009-08-13, 07:32
Only vaguely related, but humorous nonetheless: The Last Samurai Agent (http://pbackwriter.blogspot.com/2007/01/last-samurai-agent.html).
OH THANK GOD. They will take LaTeX files directly, and have templates I can use for formatting.
Honestly, even more than any contract terms, that was my biggest question. I am a control freak when it comes to layout and design. Marketing? Pfft. I'll let them handle that part.
ezkcdude
2009-08-14, 14:07
OH THANK GOD. They will take LaTeX files directly, and have templates I can use for formatting.
Honestly, even more than any contract terms, that was my biggest question. I am a control freak when it comes to layout and design. Marketing? Pfft. I'll let them handle that part.
That's really nice. What font do they use for the book? I starting using Palatino for my grant proposals and I really like it (NIH/NSF only accept Helevetica/Arial, Palatino, and Times New Roman).
I have no idea... most LaTeX documents default to Computer Modern, but I'm sure they'll tell me eventually. :D
curiousuburb
2009-08-14, 17:11
NYT talks about rental textbooks (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/education/14textbook.html?hpw)
Cool. Honestly, I always kept my texts, but I know a lot of people don't, and that's fine. Such a damned racket though.
Helevetica/Arial
*dies*
Kick: But it's a racket you can be part of! :p
I keep my textbooks...if they're good. And if I don't get rid of almost all my belongings in an quasi-spiritual detox/escape from Las Vegas months later. ;)
Best thing about a liberal arts degree: your text books just turn into, um, books :)
Heh, I kept all mine as references. It's shocking how often I still go back to them, and for the strangest reasons.
Best thing about a liberal arts degree: your text books just turn into, um, books :)
And with an Art History major, you never have to buy coffee table books again.
(Finally, a use for an Art History major. ;) I kid, I kid!)
And with an Art History major, you never have to buy coffee table books again.
(Finally, a use for an Art History major. ;) I kid, I kid!)
No kidding!
Get them down on all fours, throw a sheet of plywood on their back, and voila! A place to put your coffee!
Oh, you said coffee table BOOKS... sorry, misread...
Get them down on all fours, throw a sheet of plywood on their back, and voila! A place to put Paula Abdul!
(Humour me.)
Sorry if this seems obvious, but have you spoken to any published former profs or colleagues? I know that's who I'd be consulting first.
Total aside, but I'm going to be trying to get published for the first time this fall - just a paper though :D
Sorry if this seems obvious, but have you spoken to any published former profs or colleagues? I know that's who I'd be consulting first.
Oh yas. Unfortunately, my primary colleague is kind of a publishing machine, and his advice was basically "Just send it in, and they publish it, right?" Yes, well, if it's *you* they do, buddy... :) I have some other coworkers who are working on a book, and we've been talking as well.
Total aside, but I'm going to be trying to get published for the first time this fall - just a paper though :D
Nice! :) Getting your first paper out there is kind of exhilarating. :)
Welp.
Just signed a contract. Hopefully the book will be out first half 2011. :)
Congratulations. :)
I want my copy signed! ;) :D
Welp.
Just signed a contract. Hopefully the book will be out first half 2011. :)
Yay! :D
It's amazing how slow the old publishing machine can work sometimes but when you hold your book in your hands I'm sure it will be worth the wait. :)
Congratulations Kickaha! :cancer:
Thanks guys! Went the no-agent route, only because I had an introduction to the editor by a colleague who is well published. And after that it was shockingly quick... hope I didn't miss the 'first born and two limbs' clause in the contract. :lol: I'm kind of doing the stunned monkey routine at the moment.
I already have some ideas for the cover:
http://www.greychristian.com/AN/kickahacover.jpg
That's great news Kick - congrats. :)
709 :lol: classic :D
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh that's disturbing.
:lol:
Windswept
2009-10-28, 14:40
Welp.
Just signed a contract. Hopefully the book will be out first half 2011. :)
OMG!!! A ZILLION CONGRATULATIONS, DR. KICKAHA :D :eek: :p ;) :)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_t61FEDcK6jg/R_G6nJkNvVI/AAAAAAAAAU0/-GSyBydX6ds/s400/307-congratulations_balloon.jpg
Oh, and will it ever be on amazon? Do they even *have* a textbook division on amazon???
First nearly-full draft to publisher for review.
Now maybe I'll get to have a life again? Naaaaaw...
billybobsky
2010-10-31, 16:52
709 wins post of the year.
Oh, and congrats, Kickaha!
This reminds me I need to move on with my own life as well.... I've got to get out of this fucking lab.
This reminds me I need to move on with my own life as well.... I've got to get out of this fucking lab.
Write a novel! (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=35199)
pscates2.0
2010-10-31, 17:01
709 just created the most amazing book cover in the history of ever, I do believe.
709 wins post of the year..:lol: Well, that was last year's post, but I'll take it retroactively. :D I have the print files all ready to go as soon as Kick's publisher gives me the go ahead. ;)
Congrats again, Kick. Can we hope for an AN exclusive preview? :)
billybobsky
2010-10-31, 17:37
Shit. I saw 10-27 and ignored the year...
S'ok. I forgot all about it myself and it made me lol. :D
Even so, you have to admit it's also creepy in how Kick's face is on the side of the head. :D
Ok, so first half of 2011?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAaaaaa... *sigh*
Still working on revisions. Turned in draft Oct 31, got revisions back in Jan, started in on earnest after a major work contract ended in early Mar, had a deadline of end of April that shot *right* the hell by, but thank god the publisher is accommodating.
It's getting there though. About 300 pages at the moment. No idea which side of that it's going to end up at, got a lot of crud to chop out of one chapter before I stitch it back together.
Wheeeeeeeeeee!
A text on software design? Our CS department is revamping its curriculum in that area over the next few years, wonder if we’ll end up with your book. Right now it’s Pressman + Gang of Four, but the class that uses GoF isn’t required and is considered *incredibly* hard due to the professor teaching it, so most students don’t learn that book during their four years here.
Bingo. GoF is too damned high level for beginning programmers to grok, and they end up just cutting and pasting, thereby kind of eliminating the whole &*(%@$ point of patterns.
The title is "Elemental Design Patterns" (EDPs). It's the first collection of tiny little design patterns out of a body of research I did my PhD work on, called SPQR. Essentially what I did was to create a formal calculus for design pattern definition and composition, then start at the foundation of basic OO theory and puzzle out what the 'atomic' patterns had to be.
Well actually I puzzled out what the formal framework for the patterns had to be, kind of like a periodic table, then started filling them in. Those are the EDPs. They're small, easily understandable by even beginning students, and composable into the more familiar design patterns very quickly.
I also establish a graphical notation for working with patterns called PIN (Pattern Instance Notation) that I've had published at one conference and this summer, in the Journal of Visual Language and Computing. (Also a mild possibility it will be made an OMG standard this fall to stand alongside UML.)
So. Take one OO-theory-derived calculus of design, a new pattern graphical notation that is based off of it, an approach for abstracting away implementation details from design concepts, a bundle of EDPs that are defined in the formalisms as non-decomposable and atomic, a methodology for composing patterns together starting with the EDPs and working up to whatever level you like... and then explain it all to a beginner by stripping out all the math, the equations, and the formalisms so that they can learn how to think and reason about design at the same time that they learn how to program.
By the time they get through this book, they should be able to work with the GoF level patterns as living entities, not rote recipes.
That's the book. Sound interesting? :)
Bingo. GoF is too damned high level for beginning programmers to grok, and they end up just cutting and pasting, thereby kind of eliminating the whole &*(%@$ point of patterns.
The title is "Elemental Design Patterns" (EDPs). It's the first collection of tiny little design patterns out of a body of research I did my PhD work on, called SPQR. Essentially what I did was to create a formal calculus for design pattern definition and composition, then start at the foundation of basic OO theory and puzzle out what the 'atomic' patterns had to be.
Well actually I puzzled out what the formal framework for the patterns had to be, kind of like a periodic table, then started filling them in. Those are the EDPs. They're small, easily understandable by even beginning students, and composable into the more familiar design patterns very quickly.
I also establish a graphical notation for working with patterns called PIN (Pattern Instance Notation) that I've had published at one conference and this summer, in the Journal of Visual Language and Computing. (Also a mild possibility it will be made an OMG standard this fall to stand alongside UML.)
So. Take one OO-theory-derived calculus of design, a new pattern graphical notation that is based off of it, an approach for abstracting away implementation details from design concepts, a bundle of EDPs that are defined in the formalisms as non-decomposable and atomic, a methodology for composing patterns together starting with the EDPs and working up to whatever level you like... and then explain it all to a beginner by stripping out all the math, the equations, and the formalisms so that they can learn how to think and reason about design at the same time that they learn how to program.
By the time they get through this book, they should be able to work with the GoF level patterns as living entities, not rote recipes.
That's the book. Sound interesting? :)
Quite interesting, we have a professor here who would very much be interested in this. He’s the one who taught the class using Gang of Four. I actually felt he used it pretty well, but it wasn’t a traditional class. We met once a week, for 2.5 hours. First 30 minutes was a quiz on the past week’s readings from Effective C++ and Effective Java, second 1.5 hours was a lecture on design patterns, final 30 minutes was time to work on our semester project and ask questions. The project was developing a virtual world, sort of a simulated Google Earth. Half the class implemented it in C++, other half in Java.
Essentially, as we learned the Gang of Four, we realized how we should have designed our project. I actually thought it was fairly effective that way.
Very nice. Getting a chance to do it wrong is the only way that you learn why the pattern is how to do it right, and that's what most patterns classes are missing. They try and teach students, who usually have almost no experience at design, "Here's how to do it", but without the background to appreciate why it's the right way, there's no comprehension to speak of. Students just end up faithfully copying the pattern without thinking about it.
The problem is, something like the GoF level of pattern is usually quite a bit beyond the experience scope of the students they're teaching to. By giving students much smaller patterns in the EDPs, it lets them see solutions to problems they're going to run into from day 1. They learn the wrong way, and the right way, at the same time, from the ground up.
And, by showing them how to think about design as building blocks, and giving them the tools to decompose and recompose design and implementation side by side, they can advance their own learning incrementally as needed.
Basically it's not teaching them design, it's teaching them how to think about, and learn about, design.
I think that's a much more powerful tool, in the end.
The fun thing is, this came out of research to teach a computer how to detect design patterns from source code, by looking for small building blocks and putting them together in well-formed ways. Once I had that licked, I realized that I could write it up and teach people how to do something similar. :D
Very nice. Getting a chance to do it wrong is the only way that you learn why the pattern is how to do it right, and that's what most patterns classes are missing. They try and teach students, who usually have almost no experience at design, "Here's how to do it", but without the background to appreciate why it's the right way, there's no comprehension to speak of. Students just end up faithfully copying the pattern without thinking about it.
The problem is, something like the GoF level of pattern is usually quite a bit beyond the experience scope of the students they're teaching to. By giving students much smaller patterns in the EDPs, it lets them see solutions to problems they're going to run into from day 1. They learn the wrong way, and the right way, at the same time, from the ground up.
And, by showing them how to think about design as building blocks, and giving them the tools to decompose and recompose design and implementation side by side, they can advance their own learning incrementally as needed.
Basically it's not teaching them design, it's teaching them how to think about, and learn about, design.
I think that's a much more powerful tool, in the end.
The fun thing is, this came out of research to teach a computer how to detect design patterns from source code, by looking for small building blocks and putting them together in well-formed ways. Once I had that licked, I realized that I could write it up and teach people how to do something similar. :D
Keep us updated! I’m keen to take a look once it’s published. :)
GSpotter
2011-05-14, 02:44
...and it will give them excerpt rights, and the film/television/drama rights...
(Especially since he also mentioned a video series?!? WTF??)
When reading this, I somehow envisioned a movie poster "The return of the Anti Patterns - part one of the death march trilogy", directed by Michael Bay" ... :lol:
Kick -
Would it be available for individual purchases, on Amazon or something like that? If so, I'd love it if you could post when it's available. I may want to buy it myself.
Kick -
Would it be available for individual purchases, on Amazon or something like that? If so, I'd love it if you could post when it's available. I may want to buy it myself.
Same here. My masters dissertation was on design patterns so I'm sure I would find it an interesting read.
I thought I had posted in this thread already but it appears not. Good luck with it. You definitely have found a gap in the market there which for the good of us all needs to be filled.
Kick -
Would it be available for individual purchases, on Amazon or something like that? If so, I'd love it if you could post when it's available. I may want to buy it myself.
Yup, it'll be coming out from Addison-Wesley Professional Publishing, alongside ye olde Gang of Four Design Patterns book. :)
Of course, now books are dead, so my timing is *awesome*... :D
adamb: What was your dissertation on? Always curious to find out what people are up to. :)
It was an experiment on the performance implication of using some common GoF patterns. Nothing ground-breaking or overly surprising but somewhat interesting to do.
The thing is, it wasn't until the final year of my course that patterns were introduced in any kind of formal manner, so I think that's the really exciting thing for me about your book. Undoubtedly a lot of students would do things differently with early exposure to patterns. In my experience of teaching people fundamentals of programming it's all about explaining the 'why', and that seems to be missing in a lot of cases. Your notation too sounds very interesting, and with teaching the concepts of design rather than design itself I don't see how this can't work out well for you.
Thanks, I hope so. :) (got a link to the dissertation online? I wouldn't mind taking a peek at it, if that's alright with you.)
Another weekend of ass-in-chair, another drop to the publisher.
Rejected subtitles so far:
"It done, bitches!"
"There, I fixed it for you." <--- I actually like this one ^_^
"No this isn't a chemistry book."
So my subtitle is still in the running?
Seriously man, the wet panties bit will sell *millions*
I'm thinking so! The publisher says there aren't enough women in CS to go that route, but I say "hey! what better way to pull them in!" Figure we can get an NSF Women in Science grant that way, amirite??
NSF Women
I can't quite decide if that NSF is for "National Science Foundation" or "Not Safe For"....
...especially in the context of 709's subtitle. :lol:
I can't quite decide if that NSF is for "National Science Foundation" or "Not Safe For"....
...especially in the context of 709's subtitle. :lol:
Oooh! Oooh! It could be one of those doubly things!!!
Holy shibnitz, I think they're *serious* about this whole 'book' thing...
http://www.amazon.com/Elemental-Design-Patterns-Jason-McColm/dp/0321711920/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1307136571&sr=8-1
:D
*oontzoontzoontzoontz*
You, sir, have a badass name.
And thank god someone is making an earnest effort to replace GoF because I did not enjoy that textbook one bit.
You, sir, have a badass name.
And thank god someone is making an earnest effort to replace GoF because I did not enjoy that textbook one bit.
But Goblet of Fire was the turning point of the whole series!
OH. :o
Congrats, Kick! And yes, you do have a cool name. It's no Benedict Cumberbatch, but it's pretty cool. :p
Do you really go by "McC."? I've never seen anyone do that before, except I guess McG, the director. But I don't actually know a lot of McPeople.
*way too interested in people's names*
You, sir, have a badass name.
... BWAHAHAHAHAHA, er, thank you? That may be the first time I've ever been told *that*...
And thank god someone is making an earnest effort to replace GoF because I did not enjoy that textbook one bit.
Oh no, sorry, this doesn't replace GoF, but it does give a better *introduction* to design patterns. If this is the freshman text, GoF is the junior level class.
But Goblet of Fire was the turning point of the whole series!
OH. :o
Congrats, Kick! And yes, you do have a cool name. It's no Benedict Cumberbatch, but it's pretty cool. :p
That guy has the best name *EVER*. If I saw it in a book, I'd scoff at it being too perfect to be real.
Do you really go by "McC."? I've never seen anyone do that before, except I guess McG, the director. But I don't actually know a lot of McPeople.
*way too interested in people's names*
Yup. The proper abbreviation of McXxxxxx is McX. If you abbreviated them just M., most of Scotland would be in one letter in the database. So the Mc is sort of ignored for abbreviation purposes. My middle name is McColm, and I am utterly unfindable as 'Jason Smith' online (even got quoted in a WSJ article on it!), so I use "Jason McC. Smith" for publications. It's google-unique.
Yup. The proper abbreviation of McXxxxxx is McX. If you abbreviated them just M., most of Scotland would be in one letter in the database. So the Mc is sort of ignored for abbreviation purposes. My middle name is McColm, and I am utterly unfindable as 'Jason Smith' online (even got quoted in a WSJ article on it!), so I use "Jason McC. Smith" for publications. It's google-unique.
I knew that, I guess I just don't know anybody who actually goes by "McX.," since it's always their last name. But if it's your middle name, initializing it makes sense.
It means your name has thirteen letters, though. ;)
Oh no, sorry, this doesn't replace GoF, but it does give a better *introduction* to design patterns. If this is the freshman text, GoF is the junior level class.
Well GoF is how I was introduced to design patterns so... yeah.
Yeah I guess it would be difficult to outright replace GoF because it's pretty much the standard, but it is not an easy read.
I knew that, I guess I just don't know anybody who actually goes by "McX.," since it's always their last name. But if it's your middle name, initializing it makes sense.
It means your name has thirteen letters, though. ;)
Rawk. The Number of the Geek.
Well GoF is how I was introduced to design patterns so... yeah.
Yeah I guess it would be difficult to outright replace GoF because it's pretty much the standard, but it is not an easy read.
No, it's really not, and why I undertook this. GoF is *GREAT* and an amazing revelation *IF* you're already a seasoned programmer who has run across the problems they state.
If you *haven't*, like, say, when you're just starting out, then you're left wondering why the hell you should care.
This work grew out of a project to teach a computer to automatically detect design patterns in source code. I had to break down 'software design' into a formalized, repeatable process, and find the core basic features to look for first, then the software could build them up into the more established GoF level patterns.
And then it occurred to me, that if I could teach a computer to do it, I might be able to teach students how to do the same: Here's your basic taxonomy of concepts, here's how they interact, and here's how they can be used as building blocks. ie, teach students how to *think* about design from the ground up.
And I do mean the ground up. One of the EDPs is Recursion, for god's sake. Another is Create Object... which is a 12 page discussion on why, and how, etc. It's pretty damned fundamental.
And I do mean the ground up. One of the EDPs is Recursion, for god's sake. Another is Create Object... which is a 12 page discussion on why, and how, etc. It's pretty damned fundamental.
That's awesome, though. It took me a while to really grok recursion. I mean, I "got" the concept when it was explained to me in data structures, but it wasn't until a few classes later that I was staring at the output of a recursive function I was trying to debug when I realized "oh! THIS is why recursion is useful!"
So, yeah. I'm interested. And just last week I thought I would never want to see another CS textbook again :lol:
LOL I'm so sorry... :lol:
The real spiffy part (I think) is that there's an entire 'periodic table' based off of actual OO theory, such that you can describe any method call, or method call chain, (that's all this first book describes, is method calls) in a system in terms of what the relationship is between the end points. This lets someone talk about the system not in regards to the implementation details, but as a series of concepts, independent of the actual implementation structure.
And, since each method call sits within this 'periodic table', and has neighbors, any refactoring can tell you precisely what's going to happen by where your endpoint relationship will end up in the design space. And then you can propagate that up the design hierarchy and watch even very large design patterns change and shift, if the relationships are altered. If the implementation changes, but *doesn't* alter the relationship between the endpoints, then the concepts don't change, and the design remains stable.
By putting it on a formal footing, you get an amazing amount of power, but by writing them up as human-oriented design patterns, you get comprehensibility. By making them *small* concepts, you can introduce the ideas to a beginner, and get them thinking about software at higher levels of abstraction from day 1.
So you learn the concepts, and you learn how they relate to each other, and you get roadmaps for where you're likely to end up next.
Is there a release date for this? I'm hoping to get my hands on a copy once it's out.
Apparently the publisher got nervous about my progress and bumped it out to Mar 2012, but it is available for pre-order.
And I just sent in the entire ball of wax. The only thing not done at this point is the index, and they said they'd handle that.
444 pages, 167 figures, and 18 months later... holy shit, I wrote a book.
Excuse me, I'm going to go get very drunk now.
Apparently the publisher got nervous about my progress and bumped it out to Mar 2012, but it is available for pre-order.
And I just sent in the entire ball of wax. The only thing not done at this point is the index, and they said they'd handle that.
444 pages, 167 figures, and 18 months later... holy shit, I wrote a book.
Excuse me, I'm going to go get very drunk now.
Grats!
holy shit, I wrote a book.
Excuse me, I'm going to go get very drunk now.
:lol: The only proper response.
If you want to really freak yourself out, count the words. ;)
And congratulations! :) As a published author, you're a member of a pretty exclusive club. (*grits teeth with envy*)
Hey all - copyediting is in full swing now, and then off to production and galleys it goes. Whee!
Setting up a basic super simple website for the book and materials, hosted at DreamHost, one-click WordPress, blah blah blah... anyone have a good theme to recommend?
Windswept
2012-03-20, 20:59
Holy shibnitz, I think they're *serious* about this whole 'book' thing...
http://www.amazon.com/Elemental-Design-Patterns-Jason-McColm/dp/0321711920/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1307136571&sr=8-1
:D
This whole 'book' thing is very exciting. I wish to offer the most intense congratulations on your completion of this remarkable work. The relief must be positively massive. :)
I thought the "book description" at this link was very clearly written and quite understandable, even for those who don't have even a shred of a clue. I doubt that I'll be buying a copy, however. Maybe I could visit one at a bookstore one of these days though. ;)
In the meantime, any chance you could quote a few lines from Grady's foreward? (Or, even better, quote the *whole* foreward?) I'm positively *dying* to read what he says, especially since I remember waaay back to when you first met him at that conference. (Was it in Philly?) And you went up and introduced yourself to him after he finished speaking. And you told me that he was a god-like being. :D heh
And I can't help thinking back to those days when you were sleeping on a cot in your graduate-student office in NC and procrastinating wrt working on your dissertation by hanging out at AI at 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning. :D I guess that must have been in the fall of 2003, wasn't it? Before the birth of AN. ;)
Well, anyway, as I said, this is all very exciting. :)
This whole 'book' thing is very exciting. I wish to offer the most intense congratulations on your completion of this remarkable work. The relief must be positively massive. :)
I thought the "book description" at this link was very clearly written and quite understandable, even for those who don't have even a shred of a clue. I doubt that I'll be buying a copy, however. Maybe I could visit one at a bookstore one of these days though. ;)
Yes! Shipping April 9th! :D
But... available through Kindle now, I just found out!
http://www.amazon.com/Elemental-Design-Patterns-ebook/dp/B007NYPA6U/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1332879029&sr=8-2
In the meantime, any chance you could quote a few lines from Grady's foreward? (Or, even better, quote the *whole* foreward?) I'm positively *dying* to read what he says, especially since I remember waaay back to when you first met him at that conference. (Was it in Philly?) And you went up and introduced yourself to him after he finished speaking. And you told me that he was a god-like being. :D heh
LOL OMG, that was... 2005, in Pittsburgh. I introduced myself to him, and to the other keynote speaker. I worked with Grady at IBM, and the other keynote speaker? Now my boss.
Grady was kind enough to write the Foreword, just a bit ago, JUST in time for publication:
There’s a wonderful scene in the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey that comes to mind.
Having spent several months alone on the derelict ship Discovery—and that after having earlier lobotomized the errant Hal—Dr. David Bowman approaches a monolith that draws him in to a new world. His final message back to earth ends “It’s full of stars!”
Software-intensive systems are new worlds that we create with our own mental labor. Whereas the world that Bowman saw was formed from atoms and thus full of stars, our worlds are formed from bits...and are full of patterns.
Whether intentional or not, all well-structured software intensive systems are full of patterns. Identifying the patterns in a system serves to raise the level of abstraction in reasoning about that system; imposing patterns on a system serves to bring even further order, elegance, and simplicity to that system. In my experience, patterns are one of the most important developments in software engineering in the past two decades.
I’ve had the pleasure of working with Jason as he evolved his work on SPQR, and let me assure you that he has contributed greatly to the advance of the understanding and practice of patterns. Elemental Design Patterns will help you think about patterns in a new way, a way that will help you apply patterns to improve the software worlds that you create and evolve. If you are new to patterns, this is a great book to start your journey; if you are an old hand with patterns, then I expect you’ll learn some new things. I certainly did.
Grady Booch
IBM Fellow
February 2012
Spiffy. ^_^
And I can't help thinking back to those days when you were sleeping on a cot in your graduate-student office in NC and procrastinating wrt working on your dissertation by hanging out at AI at 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning. :D I guess that must have been in the fall of 2003, wasn't it? Before the birth of AN. ;)
Oh lord, yeah, I spent way too much time on AI. LOL
Well, anyway, as I said, this is all very exciting. :)
Thank you so much, I'm really rather over the moon today. Recorded some short video podcasts recently for the publisher, and now we're discussing online lectures...
Everybody check this out: Our boy Kickaha just got a review over at Slashdot that's practically glowing. Way to go!
http://books.slashdot.org/story/12/06/04/1229254/book-review-elemental-design-patterns
Thanks man! :D Saw it this afternoon, and my eyes about bugged out. LOL
*bounce bounce*
I HIT SLASHDOT!
(again)
HEE
OK, if I don't even understand the review I guess I have no hope with the book. ;)
Good for you, sir!
:)
Meh, I thought the reviewer actually sold it more as a theoretical system (which, okay, it *is*) than a collection of introductory design patterns. Given that he's an established practitioner, that makes sense, that's his focus, but I wrote the book to also target new programmers, as an introduction to the literature and a new way of thinking about programming in general.
So, like, don't get scared off by his review. I swear to god it's not that complex. :D
The review really made me want to read it. I'm not really a beginner, but I'm about 90% self-taught, so I don't have much formal background. I immediately added the Kindle version to my Amazon wish list. It sounds great.
Cool, thanks! :D Do let me know what you think about it, I'm already forming the edit list for 2nd ed. :D
OK, if I don't even understand the review I guess I have no hope with the book. ;) :lol:
Same. :D
LOL
Quick version: Design patterns are hard. They're too big, fuzzy, and difficult to work with unless you study them closely for a while. Most people don't have the time, so they use them like recipes, which ruins much of their usefulness. They're kind of like alchemy. Use this, don't do that, here's the solution... but without any real understanding behind them.
I devised the periodic table, essentially. A suite of smaller, easy to understand design elements for software production that let the reader quickly dive into the mental model of design patterns without the long study period. These are the atoms of software design, that bring it from alchemy to chemistry.
Man, you keep making it sound better and better. Stop it! Don't you know I already have a giant reading backlog? (Seriously, I have at least six new books that I still haven't read.)
Oh well. Next time I've got $20 to spare for books, I'll pick it up, you magnificent bastard.
I know what you mean, my To Be Read pile damned near crushed me last week. :P
I just described this book to a bunch of my coworkers. I think I'm doing to have to buy a copy for the office engineering library, dangit. :shakefist:
Office engineering library? I'd like to come work there now, please.
Well, "library" may be a glorified term for "bookshelf full of hand-me-down books". :lol:
http://i.imgur.com/YtMkQ.jpg
A bunch of them are ooold but there are still some gems hidden among there.
Sweet, looks like the shelf at my office... but about 1/5 the size... lol (I work at a company that specializes in legacy languages. I have never seen so many language reference guides from the 60s in one place before, outside of the IBM library reference stacks.)
We finally got our two copies! :)
Coworkers are excited to have it.
http://i.imgur.com/TMwmW.jpg
I'm still getting a handle on this "reading" thing.
http://i.imgur.com/Afzjr.jpg
We finally got our two copies! :)
Coworkers are excited to have it.
HA! That's awesome! :D
I'm in ur branes....
I'm still getting a handle on this "reading" thing.
I hear it makes a good doorstop.... :D
pscates2.0
2012-06-22, 18:55
I did some Illustrator tutorials in MacDesign magazine years ago (I was still in San Diego, so this would've been prior to 2003). Had a little masthead, byline, got to write everything out, do the steps, capture the screenshots/write the captions, etc. I was given a space/word-count and general style guidelines, but the topics were left up to me.
I go to talk with some of the guys at the publication, including Scott Kelby.
I thought it was fun. Wish I'd pursued it harder...
:(
But it was neat to see my name and picture in a national Mac/graphics magazine for a while!
In case any Seattle area folk are interested, I'll be doing a local book signing and talk on Sep 22 up on Capitol Hill. http://blog.seattletechnicalbooks.com/?p=580
See you there!
I just read the first few paragraphs of the Slashdot review and my head asplode. I intend to buy a pocket protector and a graphing calculator so I can try again later to comprehend the scope of this work. ;) Congrats, McKick!
BTW I recommend for 2e, you use Brad's "The Kick Dude" Photoshop art for the cover. There is no geek alive who could resist purchasing a book covered in this manner. Also you'll probably corner the drifter and stoner market segments. Maybe do like a Beautiful Mind graphical treatment, with sigmas and formulas floating around the Kick Dude's head. :D
Windswept
2012-09-10, 20:33
In case any Seattle area folk are interested, I'll be doing a local book signing and talk on Sep 22 up on Capitol Hill. http://blog.seattletechnicalbooks.com/?p=580
See you there!
Is there any chance you could get the store to make a video clip of your entire talk, including the question and answer segment at the end? Bookstores I frequent make videos during author-signing events and then post them on their website, but Ada's doesn't seem to have anything like that that I can see. If they don't (and won't) do this, maybe you could bring and set up a video camera and tripod and film it yourself, so you'll have a clip for yourself. And for us. Yes? :D
Also, I watched the clips that were on the amazon site (I guess that's where they were) a few months back, and, imo, you look much better clean-shaven. But I guess that's a matter of opinion, right? :p
Windswept
2012-09-21, 16:11
Are you nervous about your book-signing tomorrow night, or are you excited and looking forward to it? :)
I hope you have a good crowd and that they all buy a copy or two of your book. Best of luck, and have fun. :)
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