return of the DRAFT in 2005??

[thegelding]

click here and let me know what you think (http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=5834001&content_dir=ua_congressorg)


scary for me as a parent of two kids nearing that age...college not an exception, canada not an option

g

[billybobsky]

i hope i hit 26 before they draft my ass...

given the time these things take, i may be fortunate enough...

never have i wished i was older...

[thegelding]

i wonder if you can take your childs place?? i would be more useful to the military than either of my daughters...sure i'm 42, almost 43, but i'm fit and strong and smart...not that i would want to go, but if i could take the place of my child and have her stay stateside, i would in a heartbeat

anybody know the rules on this?


g

[Wickers]

Wow... that's scary.

Glad I live in Canada.

[billybobsky]

i wonder if you can take your childs place?? i would be more useful to the military than either of my daughters...sure i'm 42, almost 43, but i'm fit and strong and smart...not that i would want to go, but if i could take the place of my child and have her stay stateside, i would in a heartbeat

anybody know the rules on this?


g

your daughters are safe... there is no draft for the wimpy females among us... although i think it is a safe bet that your daughters could kick my ass if i happened to pick a fight... i don't really know, but it is a safe bet...

[HOM]

Methinks that the nation is going to see a huge increase of homosexuals if the draft is reinstated.

[Luca]

Perhaps I should move to Canada right now. Or very soon. Looks like you can't go there to avoid the draft if you've already been drafted, but maybe if I move there and am a resident for a year before they even start, I might be safe...

My god I hope it doesn't happen. But I'd do anything other than fight for our country in this godawful "war." No fucking way man. Maybe if it was a situation like WWII, where the fate of the free world depended on the victory of the allied forces... but this is a fucking power grab. Bush and company don't care at all that 800+ Americans have died in Iraq fighting to make the rich richer. I'm sure as hell not going. If I have to go to jail for it, then so be it.

I would rather move to Mexico. My family has already considered moving to either Canada or Mexico a little bit this year, because they think it would be better to live in a simpler country that not everyone in the world hates. My mom is a freelance worker so she can work from just about anywhere, and my dad could probably get a job in Vancouver or Toronto. Also, our house has gained so much value and living is so cheap in Mexico that if we were to move there, they might even be able to go into semi-retirement.

Anyway, it seems like a drastic measure to move out of the country, but we've considered it, and if Bush gets reelected, it might just happen. Plus, I'm 19 now but I'll be 20 in about two months, making me prime drafting age starting this summer and continuing on until I'm 26.

They better not fucking do it. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[thegelding]

your daughters are safe... there is no draft for the wimpy females among us... although i think it is a safe bet that your daughters could kick my ass if i happened to pick a fight... i don't really know, but it is a safe bet...


Congress brought twin bills, S. 89 and HR 163 forward this year, http://www.hslda.org/legislation/na...s89/default.asp entitled the Universal National Service Act of 2003, "to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons [age 18--26] in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes." These active bills currently sit in the committee on armed services.

g

probably could kick your ass son...they both took self-protection classes...they go right for the eyes and groin...ouch...plus they were both soccer players, so the kicks to the groin will be fast and accurate...and as you lay on the ground, they run around with their shirt pulled over their heads yelling, "GOAL!!!!!!!!!"

[Paul]

well at least they are going to draft women too (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12407&highlight=draft) (according to the article)

but regardless... this is not something that should be a real possibility after the bullshit that was pulled in Iraq

if Bush wants to go around causing trouble he should not be forcing innocent people to support him...

What is kerry saying about this?

[hyperb0le]

If I remember correctly, these bills were introduced in January 2003. Basically, they aren't getting passed. No one in Congress with any children or grandchildren of draft age would vote for this.

[InactionMan]

Canada welcomes you with open arms!

I knew this would happen sooner or later. America is in too many places to maintain adequate forces in any one place. Just wait, the second Bush wins the election the draft will be in full force. And the War on Terror will open on many more fronts, starting with Syria.

g, why is Canada not an option? Are you afraid of our strong beer?

[billybobsky]

canada ain't an option because of a piece of legislation (or was it just an agreement?) that makes it real easy to force people back across the border...

[thegelding]

g, why is Canada not an option? Are you afraid of our strong beer?

heck, i'm irish and drink guiness...and canada would be great, english speaking (at least half) which is good for me as a slow learner

this was part of the article:

Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era.

College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's minister of foreign affairs, John Manley, and U.S. Homeland Security director, Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30-point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter.


g

[billybobsky]

including women

g

probably could kick your ass son...they both took self-protection classes...they go right for the eyes and groin...ouch...plus they were both soccer players, so the kicks to the groin will be fast and accurate...and as you lay on the ground, they run around with their shirt pulled over their heads yelling, "GOAL!!!!!!!!!"

my bad...

at least I now know that if it comes to a fight between your soccer playing ninjas and myself, all I have to do is figure out a way to get their punk asses hauled off before the registered service board... senators have selectively gotten their sons protected from the board, why can't i get your daughters pulled in front of the board? huh? yeah, that is what I thought... you little pu....... whoa... staaaay away from meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......

[Defiant]

Come to Switzerland! I'll provide accommodation, food and chocolate. :) (yes, food and chocolate is something separate ;))

[billybobsky]

Come to Switzerland! I'll provide accommodation, food and chocolate. :) (yes, food and chocolate is something separate ;))

no there not.

[Defiant]

no they're not.:p

Offer still stands for every refugee who wants to flee from the draft. :)

[InactionMan]

heck, i'm irish and drink guiness...and canada would be great, english speaking (at least half) which is good for me as a slow learner

this was part of the article:

Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era.

College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's minister of foreign affairs, John Manley, and U.S. Homeland Security director, Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30-point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter.


g

There are currently two US soldiers seeking asylum in Canada. One of them, Pfc. Jeremy Hinzman, has his refugee hearing starting soon. The article states that the US Army could request that he be sent back and the could arrest him, but they won't actively pursue him. So, maybe Canada is about to do a flip-flop for conscientious objectors.

Article= http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040526.whinzm0526/BNStory/Front/

[thegelding]

cool, i should start practicing my canadian


aboot, hoser, eh, hoser, aboot

ok, got it down


g

[curiousuburb]

the irony gods might draft the Bush twin daughters into W's war.
might be poetic.

[hyperb0le]

the irony gods might draft the Bush twin daughters into W's war.
might be poetic.

Oh, don't worry, I'm sure their names will be mysteriously absent from the possible draftee database (whatever they call that thing)

[Quagmire]

Here are two possibilities,

1. Bush wins and the draft would be brought back.

2. Kerry wins, he pulls out of Iraq and the draft would most likely will not be brought back(unless we need soldiers in Afganistan)

[hyperb0le]

Here are two possibilities,

1. Bush wins and the draft would be brought back.

2. Kerry wins, he pulls out of Iraq and the draft would most likely will not be brought back(unless we need soldiers in Afganistan)

First, it's Congress's decision, not Bush's. Secondly, I'm not so sure Kerry would pull out of Iraq. I think it would be more detrimental to pull out than to stay there. If we pull out now, the world will think "If we piss them off enough, they'll go home." If that happens, we will lose any chance of finding OBL. Right now, the biggest reason countries are letting us in to search is that they are scared of us. If we lose their respect, we lose all influence in the middle east. That being said, we need to get out of there eventually, but we need to ease out. A sudden pull-out would be a terrible thing for the US.

That said, neither of the candidates are fit to run the country. But that's for a different thread. :)

[Windswept]

I would rather move to Mexico. My family has already considered moving to either Canada or Mexico a little bit this year, because they think it would be better to live in a simpler country that not everyone in the world hates. My mom is a freelance worker so she can work from just about anywhere, and my dad could probably get a job in Vancouver or Toronto. Also, our house has gained so much value and living is so cheap in Mexico that if we were to move there, they might even be able to go into semi-retirement.

Canada is a wonderful place. I love Vancouver and Victoria - British Columbia in general. But you really need to check on the draft thing wrt Canada. I doubt if it would matter if you lived there for a year or two. You'd still be prime material.

Wrt Mexico. My impression is that Mexico is not a very safe place. It is rife with kidnappings for ransom. Get in a cab, and you take a chance of being abducted - from what I've been reading in Newsweek over the last three years. In many cases, according to Newsweek articles, off-duty police officers and federales (federal police) were the ones doing the kidnappings!!! The Mexicans who have been kidnapped don't bother to report the crime, since if the police are involved, what's the point? So they handle the ransom themselves.

A few years ago I read that of the seven Mexican national banks, four were involved in money laundering for drug cartels.

Anyway, if I were your parents, I'd check out Costa Rica instead. I've been reading up on Costa Rica for a few years. Apparently they have a national literacy rate of 95% - which is probably *lots* better than that in the US. Their economy is quite stable. I'm not sure if the country is a transhipment point for drugs, but I don't think it is. I plan to go down there and check it out sometime in the next six or seven months. It would be great for me, because I already speak Spanish. (I lived in Mexico as a kid in 3rd-6th grades.)

I'd like to go down to CR and write books - sit on the porch (of a cottage overlooking the sea) with my sweet little 12" PB, listen to the gulls and the surf, feel the ocean breeze across my face.....and be able to afford to have someone *else* clean the cottage and wash the dishes. heh. :D

Luca, when I lived in Mexico as a kid, we had both a live-in cook and a chambermaid. A daily gardener and an ironing lady on Wednesdays. My mom spent all her time at the country club during the day, playing golf and bridge. My dad had a company plane that he flew up to his job site in the mountains. Living in an ex-pat community is quite exotic, really. My mom's good friend was a European countess! Once one has a taste of that kind of life, it inspires a lifetime's nostalgia. But when we were there, drugs weren't a problem; and that makes all the difference in the world!!! :(

Maybe there's an English-language newspaper in Guadalajara that would give some perspective on all this. Lots of retired Americans living there, I think. Maybe that paper has an online edition. If not, there must be an English online version of one of the big Mexico City newspapers. It would be worth it to check.

Carol

[Paul]

I'd like to go down to CR and write books - sit on the porch (of a cottage overlooking the sea) with my sweet little 12" PB, listen to the gulls and the surf, feel the ocean breeze across my face.....

Looking into costa rica? soulcrusher (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42006&highlight=stolen+powerbook) is from around those parts...
I hear it is beautiful, but try not to let the PowerBook suffer the same fate as your cameras (http://forums.appleinsider.org/showthread.php?t=346).

just a heads-up...

-Paul

[Moogs]

You know, being well over 26 I'm not on the hit list... but if I were... there's no fucking way I would go fight Bush's war. And neither will my nephews I hope. A true world conflict (someone mentioned WWII) where there was a genuine and urgent need for all free societies to rally against a common enemy, yes, I'd go without hestitation. I would feel compelled to do my part. But for this... abomination... no way.

It is just disgusting that the adminsitration is trying to institute a draft in order to bail out their short-sighted, politiical war in Iraq.

When are these a-holes ever going to recognize the wisdom of admitting they have made mistakes? All good leaders own up to their mistakes, yet these bastards continually play things up like they can do no wrong (except ole Rummy of course, who now has no choice but to admit it).

[Wrao]

You know, being well over 26 I'm not on the hit list... but if I were... there's no fucking way I would go fight Bush's war. And neither will my nephews I hope. A true world conflict (someone mentioned WWII) where there was a genuine and urgent need for all free societies to rally against a common enemy, yes, I'd go without hestitation. I would feel compelled to do my part. But for this... abomination... no way.



My sentiments exactly, except I'm 18* :o




*turn 19 in 2 weeks :)

[thuh Freak]

i'm kind of conflicted. b/c, on the one hand, i think it'd be pretty cool to be in the army, and go through all that. but i don't like this man's war. i don't think the fear has hit me. i'm within the age limits. governmentless iraq doesn't ahve anti-drug laws right? :smokey: otherwise, it might be tough out there.

one thing that would be really cool is if the army paid for college. i could live on easy street after that. hmmm, does the army paying for college deal work retroactively? like, i've gone through a bunch of semesters and paid who knows how much money; would the gi bill cover that? anybody know? ..bueler?

[DMBand0026]

I'm at the ripe ol' age of 18, perfect draft age. So if the draft is instated, I would probably go, and would be dang proud to. I toyed with going in to the military after HS even though I had good grades in school and college was an option for me. I did end up going to college and am about to finish my first year. I'm well on my way now to becoming a full time fire fighter and paramedic.

Like I said, I would be proud to go and fight for my country. Even if it means a little interruption in my life, or possible death...I really don't fear death, but that's another story for another time. PM me if you're interested ;)

[Moogs]

Except that the truth is, you'd be fighting less for the well-being of your country and more for the whims of a man named Bush. It's not wise to be proud to fight for the sake of fighting... I actually tried to join the Air Force myself some years ago (medical DQ), so service to one's country is something I have real respect for.

But I have absolutely no respect for Bush, Chenney and what they've done in the name of "freedom". Misusing our military for political purposes is one of the most unforgiveable things I can think of, because it's a mistake that costs people their lives... not just their careers or their reputation (as with most politics).

You don't spill blood to win popularity and elections (which is the stereotypical hawk mentality of "put on a bold front and people will vote for you later")... only here it's started to backfire in a rather ugly way.

Bush is a slyme-bag for sending our men and women over there with no plan for winning the war and no real urgent need to start it in the first place. Maybe if he'd actually had the balls to serve in Viet Nam rather than his Texas Elite air guard unit, he'd have given more thought to the whole matter before he started it.

[_Ω_]

Luckily for me I have lots of things going against me:


Too Old
No respect for authority
A big girls blouse
Don't live in the States


Yep, I'm safe.

I think a lot of people would object to going to this war. As stated above defending freedom against a credible enemy is one thing, fighting for Bush another.

:)

[cooop]

Count me among the potential draftees. I'll be 20 in December.

[Chinney]

heck, i'm irish and drink guiness...and canada would be great, english speaking (at least half) which is good for me as a slow learner

this was part of the article:

Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era.

College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's minister of foreign affairs, John Manley, and U.S. Homeland Security director, Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30-point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter.


g

Just noticed this thread. I guess I was concentrating too much on boobies.

In any event, I am not sure that the agreement that you refer to above means that staying in Canada would be impossible. It might be a bit more difficult to get here - given the pre-clearance rules - but even then it likely would be far from impossible. Would men and women of draft age be prevented from going on a normal vacation in Canada? I doubt it. And once they are here, I am not sure that anything in the agreement addresses whether they would be returned. I could be wrong, but I certainly had not heard that.

I personally would love to see more Americans up here. I've known some draft dodgers from Vietnam. Many stayed even after the amnesty and did a lot for this country. Indeed, I am not sure why liberals from the U.S. don't just come up right now to escape the current Republican junta. Perhaps they don't like our weather. :p

[Windswept]

I personally would love to see more Americans up here. I've known some draft dodgers from Vietnam. Many stayed even after the amnesty and did a lot for this country. Indeed, I am not sure why liberals from the U.S. don't just come up right now to escape the current Republican junta. Perhaps they don't like our weather. :p
Hi Chinney -

Well, when I was in Victoria, British Columbia, I read in the local paper 'letters to the editor' about how some people in BC resented Americans. They were annoyed about SO many things wrt the US and Americans. Iirc, some of it had to do with our 'culture' washing over the border and overwhelming things Canadian. Some of it had to do with politics, some had to do with just thinking Americans in general were obnoxious.

Since then, I have just sort of assumed that that was the feeling of Canadians in general wrt to the US and Americans. So I am surprised to hear you say you'd like more of us up there. Am I wrong in thinking there's a low-key hostility in Canada toward Americans?

[Wrao]

Nah, Murbot's cool :lol:

[Chinney]

Hi Chinney -

Well, when I was in Victoria, British Columbia, I read in the local paper 'letters to the editor' about how some people in BC resented Americans. They were annoyed about SO many things wrt the US and Americans. Iirc, some of it had to do with our 'culture' washing over the border and overwhelming things Canadian. Some of it had to do with politics, some had to do with just thinking Americans in general were obnoxious.

Since then, I have just sort of assumed that that was the feeling of Canadians in general wrt to the US and Americans. So I am surprised to hear you say you'd like more of us up there. Am I wrong in thinking there's a low-key hostility in Canada toward Americans?


Interesting subject to bring up (for some of us). And it's not one to be answered briefly. No, it's a topic one that deserves one of those special, long "Chinney-posts" that I use to lay down occasionally in .com, but rarely do anymore. Maybe even its own special Chinney-thread - like the good old ones that got 7 hits and no responses. ;)

I'll see what I can do when I have a bit of time.

[thegelding]

i have many friends from canada...all nice people...most have dual citizenship...most came to the states for jobs....

i wouldn't mind living in some parts of canada...i hear the weather is quite nice in parts...mostly i like the high desert life and i don't think i can get that there...but mostly it is this (similar to once when i asked murbot why he didn't move south to the states)...i was born in the usa, i like the usa, i could live just about anywhere, but this is my home country....why would i move unless forced?? (the tougher question is why anybody lives in somolia or the gaza strip or iowa)

that being said, canada is one of the 5 places i would live other than the usa...i can't learn foreign languages well so i keep my choices to english speaking countries with mild climates (new zealand, scotland, ireland, australia, and canada....)

g

why not england i hear some of you asking...well i don't like rain and overcast too much...i only include ireland and scotland because i am half irish and half scotish and i always wanted to live in a castle on the moors

[Moogs]

Actually Chinney, I have considered moving to Canada on a couple of occasions. Not for political reasons so much as I just think living near the Canadian rockies would be awesome and I think the people would be a little more bearable. Getting away from Bush (should he blind people into re-electing him) would be a nice bonus...

... but it's not the Draft rules that do / would make it difficult to find refuge in Canada. It's the labor laws. You cannot legally move to Canada without a written, standing job offer from a Canadian company, if memory serves. So you can't say, quit your job here, use the money you've saved to go buy a house there, and just move with the local provincial government's blessing.

You have to prove you will be able to contribute to the economy there before you ever step foot across the border I think.

[Windswept]

Actually Chinney, I have considered moving to Canada on a couple of occasions. Not for political reasons so much as I just think living near the Canadian rockies would be awesome and I think the people would be a little more bearable. Getting away from Bush (should he blind people into re-electing him) would be a nice bonus...

... but it's not the Draft rules that do / would make it difficult to find refuge in Canada. It's the labor laws. You cannot legally move to Canada without a written, standing job offer from a Canadian company, if memory serves. So you can't say, quit your job here, use the money you've saved to go buy a house there, and just move with the local provincial government's blessing.

You have to prove you will be able to contribute to the economy there before you ever step foot across the border I think.
I think I remember reading that New Zealand has a similar law. Must be nice that some countries can pass laws that function to actually 'control' the numbers of people coming across their borders. :(

[Chinney]

g, moogs

I did not expect such heart-felt ruminations in response to my comments re ‘why not move to Canada’ – although I appreciated reading them.

I, of course, was not being entirely serious when I suggested that American liberals should just move wholesale to Canada. I realize that there are a whole host of practical reasons that prevent this, including – as Moogs suggests – the fact that, despite free-trade agreements, there is still not free movement across the border for the purpose of actually setting up and living here (and vice versa for Canadians going to the U.S.). Also, moving to a different country for political reasons is a pretty extreme thing to do.

I do think though, for potential draft-dodgers, the basis for them remaining in Canada, has not been changed. To tell you the truth, I am not sure exactly what this legal basis is – perhaps refugee status – but I have never heard anything about it having been changed.

Although I was not being entirely serious about moving up here, I was not entirely joking. From a Canadian perspective, a good proportion of the U.S. has taken a hard, hard right turn over the last 20-25 years. If these right-wing extremists had their way, the actions of the current U.S. administration would be just a precursor of what could occur. While I think that liberals and moderate conservatives still account for more than 50% of the U.S. population, I think that it is just barely over 50%, and I fear that it is shrinking. I recently read an analysis of U.S. politics that suggested that 40-45% of the U.S. public was prepared to vote for the current administration ‘no matter what’. That is a pretty strong guaranteed power base, and given a likely split in the moderate conservative vote, it gives the extreme right pretty good chance of winning a solid majority of federal and state elections in the U.S. for the foreseeable future. I do seriously wonder if, at a certain point, liberal Americans will simply no longer be comfortable living in the U.S.

All this being said, we are currently in the middle of an election campaign in Canada and it seems likely that the Conservative party – which has recently been taken over by its extremist wing – will make considerable gains in Parliament and perhaps even form the government. I am not sure that this is a reflection of a fundamental right-wing shift in Canada – people are rather just naturally of the current government, after many years in power (and a few recent scandals), and are ready for a natural switch. The Conservatives seem to be the most likely alternative, and people are hoping for that the Conservatives will ‘govern from the middle’. I think, however, if they get in power, the Conservatives will show their true right-wing nature and the trend in the current Canadian election means that Canada could soon have a government that is very sympathetic to the Bush-Cheney adminstration.

I still have to respond to Carol’s post about whether Canadians are 'anti-American' - as I said that I would do - but I’ll do that over the weekend.

[Chinney]

I think I remember reading that New Zealand has a similar law. Must be nice that some countries can pass laws that function to actually 'control' the numbers of people coming across their borders. :(

Hi Carol,

The U.S. also has such laws, as does pretty much every other country in the world. I do not believe that there is any country in the world that allows unrestricted immigration rights.

(As indicated, I have not forgot about your earlier post, but I am still thinking about it and will respond soon.)

[thegelding]

hey, what about vancouver?? seems to have nice weather...i like to bike and hike...it has places for that....

so vancouver could be doable...what other cities should i check out in canada??

requirements...children's hospital for me to work at, mild climate (able to bike or hike or something similar most months), english speaking...and please, a somewhat liberal city...

g

[Windswept]

Hi Carol,

The U.S. also has such laws, as does pretty much every other country in the world. I do not believe that there is any country in the world that allows unrestricted immigration rights.

(As indicated, I have not forgot about your earlier post, but I am still thinking about it and will respond soon.)
Yeah, we *have* those laws, but they only get applied to the 12 people every year who actually apply for legal entrance. The other *million* just wade across the river anytime they feel like it. :no:

[Chinney]

hey, what about vancouver?? seems to have nice weather...i like to bike and hike...it has places for that....

so vancouver could be doable...what other cities should i check out in canada??

requirements...children's hospital for me to work at, mild climate (able to bike or hike or something similar most months), english speaking...and please, a somewhat liberal city...

g


Liberal we can do for you. Children's hospitals we can do too. Mild climate is a bit more difficult. Even Vancouver is not the greatest - a bit cool and very rainy during the winter - but it is probably the best we've got for those who don't like winter. Next best might be Halifax, on the east coast - where it can be cold during the winter, but it is generally not bone-chilling cold.

[Chinney]

Are Canadians anti-American? As promised…my thoughts on this:

The answer, from my perspective, is both “yes”, and “no”. While that does not sound very helpful, let me provide some explanation.

From the “yes” perspective, I think that there are at least 3 aspects of anti-Americanism in Canada. The first is what I would characterize “knee-jerk” anti-Americanism that infects some of my fellow Canadians, and others around the world. It is an anti-Americanism that is willing to dismiss and criticize things American, simply on the basis that they are American. Ironically, those who express such sentiments will often do so while unknowingly (or sometimes knowingly) enjoying products or benefits that have, in some signficant degree, come from the U.S. Like all prejudices, such sentiments are stupid and unacceptable, but they do exist.

The second is cultural resentment. There is a type of anti-Americanism that is, in my view, largely a product of resentment of home-grown culture being swamped by American culture. This has been a concern of Canadians for years. While it is also a concern in other countries, I think it has been a special concern in English-speaking Canada, where integration with U.S. culture is pervasive and where, as a result, there has been much navel-gazing worry over whether we even have a Canadian culture. I can sympathize, to some degree, with these feelings, but only to a limited degree. I think that culture is a fluid thing, that has little respect for borders, nationalism, or efforts to keep it static or free from ‘foreign’ influence. I think that ensuring the survival of local culture is important, but I think that this is best done by positive support for the culture, rather than protectionism or resentment against what comes from outside. Cultural from the ‘outside’ is to be enjoyed, appreciated and should be a source of influence. Everything influences everything else – heck, I think that Canadians have influenced American culture, whether or not we or they realize it.

The third type of anti-Americanism is political. In fact, I think that this is not really anti-Americanism, but legitimate political disagreement that is disguised as anti-Americanism. I think that the political culture in the United States underwent a significant shift towards conservatism about 20-25 years ago, with the advent of the Reagan administration. The degree of esteem and admiration that Reagan enjoyed and has continued to enjoy – up to and now, likely, beyond his death – even among supposed political moderates in the United States is emblematic of a fundamental shift in attitude – not only of the extremes, but even (and perhaps especially) of the political centre. What Americans may not entirely realize is that this fundamental shift did not occur in Canada, or most of the rest of the 'western' world. While there have been strong conservative governments in other western countries (such as Thatcherism in its prime) I don’t think that the same underlying rightward shift in the general political culture has occurred. The split between Canada and the U.S. in this regard is significant, and is a source of tension and political sniping that is sometimes perceived as anti-Americanism. I don’t think, however, that this is real or objectionable anti-Americanism, as political disagreement is an entirely legitimate form of difference and debate.

Now for the good news. I really don’t think that anti-Americanism in Canada is deeply felt, or often affects the immensely good day-to-day relations between people in the two countries. Overall, I believe that Canadians are pro-American, and vice versa. Canadians and Americans visit, work and even live very comfortably in each other's countries. The amount of integration between us is amazing. While the gap in political attitude between the countries is significant – and the source of some underlying worry for me - I think that people on both sides of the border have largely transcended it in ongoing relations and I am confident that they will continue to do so.

I am sure that all of this is more than you wanted to read…but it is something that was on my mind, so I let it spill.

[thegelding]

thanks chin....i always thought we should just extend the US border about 50 miles north...wouldn't that get about 80 percent of the canadian population??

g

[Stroszek]

Methinks that the nation is going to see a huge increase of homosexuals if the draft is reinstated.

Not so much. About a week after 9/11, the Pentagon very quietly suspended the discharge of gays and lesbians until after the conflict. Basically, they say that gays and lesbians are welcome to serve in the military as long as they follow the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy, However, if they were to disobey this policy, they cannot be discharged until after the conflict due to a stop-loss order. But at that point, they will receive a dishonorable discharge.

"First, gays and lesbians would be allowed to serve during any war, just as they do now, as long as they remain in compliance with the homosexual conduct policy," said Maj. James P. Cassella of the assistant secretary of defense for public affairs' office.

I can serve during war, but not during peace? God, I love this administration. :mad:

For those who are interested, here's a link: Pentagon suspends discharges, including those against gays, lesbians during conflict (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/09/19/MN193319.DTL)