Powerbook decisions.

[mers]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to Macs and have decided to get myself a shiny new 15" Powerbook because I think it's great hardware with a perfect blend of UNIX and GUI where you get to choose the abstraction that's appropriate for the task at hand. I've got a good amount of Linux, Windows, and hardware knowledge. But I never expected the limited Powerbook choices to be so difficult to make.

I've searched and read more posts than I can count. So here's a breakdown of my questions. I know there might not be answers to some of them, and I may have missed answers in other posts, but experienced opinions are appreciated all the same.


1. Memory

There are tons of posts on memory and what to get and how much. But they have still left me confused.

a) I've read that Apple factory-installs Micron and Samsung 512MB SO-DIMMs. Does anyone know what they install for 1GB DIMMs? The Apple store doesn't know. They told me that a reason to pay the premium for factory-installed memory is because battery life may suffer with after market products. Of course, if the after market product is identical to what they would have installed, it's a moot point. I'm also not sure how true their point is to begin with. But does anybody know the brands and models of 512MB and 1GB SO-DIMMs Apple is installing?

b) The other question is the amount of memory to get. I have not intensively used Mac OS X before, so I don't know how smoothly the operating system and a handful of applications run with 512MB of RAM. In the best case, I would want a 1GB stick and an empty slot to keep my options open. And Apple has made sure that cannot happen, as it charges $350 extra to change a 512MB stick to a 1GB stick. There are three options I would like your opinions on. I could either get the default 512MB and buy a 512MB stick from Crucial for $90 and be done with it, then worry about expansion later. I could buy a 1GB stick for around $200 and have 1.5GB. Or I could buy the 1GB stick and sell the 512MB that came with the laptop. Recommendations? And does Powerbook memory sell well second hand?


2. Hard Drive

There are lots of debates I've read between getting the 80GB drive and the 100GB drive. Some say the 100GB is more noisy, others disagree. Some say the $90 increase in price for that 20GB is not worth it and should be devoted to an external firewire drive. Others think the more space the better.

a) Does anyone know what the makes and models of these drives are? Other than the space and 5400 rotational speed, nobody seems to know more details. Do they both have the same cache size, for instance, which could drastically affect performance?

b) Do the two drives draw the same amount of power, which would affect battery life?

c) The external enclosure option is intriguing since I have a 200GB 3.5" drive I could use. I know that the Firewire 400 port is not powered, but the Firewire 800 port is. Is that power sufficient to run a 3.5" drive, or am I limited to the more expensive 2.5" variants? Or will my enclosure end up being bound to a power outlet, making that extra 20GB good to have on the road?


3. Video Card

The Powerbook can come with a 64MB graphics card or for $90 more a 128MB version supporting higher resolutions by using dual-link DVI. I do not see myself affording a 30" Cinema display anytime soon. So it comes down to the memory size.

a) Has anyone noticed any difference between the 64MB card and 128MB except for bleeding edge games? Can programs like Photoshop CS or digital vide editing take advantage of those extra 64MB?

b) Does the 128MB card draw more power, further depleting battery power?


3. Battery Life

I've seen wildly varying reports on battery life, which may be because people have different configurations. Apple advertises 4.5 hours but this is optimistic at best.

a) Do you know what the actual battery life is for a top specification 15" Powerbook?

b) Has anyone seen differences in battery life reported for different hardware settings? I know turning off unused components like Wifi and reducing screen brightness help, but to what extent?


4. Tiger

Yes I had to ask. :) I think customs have the thing in quarantine somewhere. I know that I have to wait for the announcement to buy the Powerbook if I want to get a reduced rate on Tiger. Three Apple store people have told me that. Assuming there even will be a reduced rate, since they said the policy will only be known once it is announced. But I have something much more concrete to ask.

a) Even if I buy the Powerbook after Tiger is announced, odds are it won't be preloaded on it. So when I do get it, should I upgrade Panther or install Tiger afresh? Any good guides you recommend on upgrading or installing, and keeping my data and settings alive through the process?

b) I may not want to put Tiger on it immediately, from what I'm reading. Is there a rule of thumb on how long to wait before the serious bugs are ironed out?



Thanks for any help you can give, even if you only address one of the questions or point me to further reading on them. I really appreciate it.

Cheers, Emerson

[Wyatt]

I'll answer one-by-one as best as I can:

1. A) I frankly think that's a load of bull. It may be true, but it sounds like salesman gibberish to me. (Hey, I used to work in a grocery store and I told everyone that asked me that whatever item they asked me about was one of my favorites... even if I'd never tried it. So I know how retail people work :D)

B) I don't know about this. I know you absolutely have to have a minimum of 512 MB to run OSX effectively. The additional RAM you purchase will depend largely on what you intend to do with the Powerbook

2. I think most upgrades at the Apple Store are overpriced, hard drives included. $90 extra for 20 extra GB is a bit too much, IMHO. However, again, depending on what you're doing, you may want the extra 20 GB (for example, if you'll be editing video on the road, you might not want to take an external drive with you). Personally, I think I would get the 80 GB drive and then buy a firewire enclosure for your 200 GB (that's what I'll be doing with my Mac mini when I get it this summer). Heck, you could buy two enclosures and another 200 GB and you'd never run out of space. :D

a) I don't know much about the brands or anything, so I'll leave that for somebody else

b) Logic would tell me that the 100 GB might take a bit more power for finding files, just because it has more places to look... but I could be completely wrong

c) again, yes, buy the enclosure

3. I laugh because you have two #3's. I cry because I can't answer anything about video cards :p

3. Sorry, I can't answer this (I don't know much about the battery life, as my only experience with Powerbooks has been at my office, where they're plugged in when I use them anyway)

4. Personally I'm all for having the newest stuff as soon as possible (but cheaply), so I think I'd wait until Tiger comes pre-installed and get the Powerbook then. It shouldn't be too terribly long and you'll save money on the OS. Lucky me, I don't have the money for my mini yet, so I don't have this dilemma. :D

[mers]

Thanks mate, hope others will chime in too.

[Wyatt]

Thanks mate, hope others will chime in too.
No problem. Other people will be around soon enough. Just give it some time and you'll get good responses. (this isn't an insanely busy board, so it's just not possible for you to get 50 responses in one day :))

[Luca]

fcgriz answered your memory questions pretty well, so I'll move on to the other things you asked.

2. Hard Drive

There are lots of debates I've read between getting the 80GB drive and the 100GB drive. Some say the 100GB is more noisy, others disagree. Some say the $90 increase in price for that 20GB is not worth it and should be devoted to an external firewire drive. Others think the more space the better.
You always pay more for the tip-top version of something. 100 GB laptop hard drives are just really expensive right now, no matter where you order from. Apple may charge even more, but 100 GB hard drives are a lot more expensive than 80 GB ones no matter where you buy them. I'd say stick with the 80 GB.

a) Does anyone know what the makes and models of these drives are? Other than the space and 5400 rotational speed, nobody seems to know more details. Do they both have the same cache size, for instance, which could drastically affect performance?

b) Do the two drives draw the same amount of power, which would affect battery life?
Apple uses several different models. I believe the 100 GB one is a Seagate Momentus, but I'm not sure. There may be other companies offering 5400 RPM, 100 GB laptop drives.

As for power, that'll probably depend more on the manufacturer than on the size of the drive. I am quite sure they will be similar enough that you won't notice.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that whether you go with an 80 or 100 GB drive, you won't notice any difference other than storage capacity. From past searches at NewEgg, I've only come across a few laptop drives with only 2 MB of cache, and they were all Western Digital models. I have not seen any Apple laptops with WD hard drives, so you're probably safe in that regard.

c) The external enclosure option is intriguing since I have a 200GB 3.5" drive I could use. I know that the Firewire 400 port is not powered, but the Firewire 800 port is. Is that power sufficient to run a 3.5" drive, or am I limited to the more expensive 2.5" variants? Or will my enclosure end up being bound to a power outlet, making that extra 20GB good to have on the road?
Sorry, but you're wrong about the Firewire 400 port. It IS powered. A few PC laptops use a 4-pin Firewire 400 connection that doesn't carry power, but all Macs use 6-pin Firewire 400, which carries enough bus power to run a laptop drive in an enclosure. I believe there is such a thing as a bus-powered 3.5" hard drive enclosure, but it is extremely expensive and sold only by a company called WiebeTech. They make excellent stuff, but they will charge you mountains of cash for it. Also, I'm pretty sure you're limited to using a 5400 RPM, 3.5" drive in bus-powered mode. Either way it'll suck a lot more power than a laptop drive.

From a practical standpoint, you're limited to 2.5" drives if you want it to be bus powered. Otherwise you can just pick up any old 3.5" Firewire case to use with your 200 GB hard drive. I got one for about $40 from NewEgg and I'm using a 250 GB drive in it.


3. Video Card

The Powerbook can come with a 64MB graphics card or for $90 more a 128MB version supporting higher resolutions by using dual-link DVI. I do not see myself affording a 30" Cinema display anytime soon. So it comes down to the memory size.

a) Has anyone noticed any difference between the 64MB card and 128MB except for bleeding edge games? Can programs like Photoshop CS or digital vide editing take advantage of those extra 64MB?

b) Does the 128MB card draw more power, further depleting battery power?
64 MB vs. 128 MB doesn't help much. The main area where VRAM makes a difference, in OS X at least, is the graphical effects. If you have 128 MB to devote to those cool eye candy effects like Exposé, you'll see smoother performance. But even 64 MB is plenty. I am on a Mac mini with 32 MB of VRAM, and it's not perfect but it's still quite smooth.

It's also helpful if you want to use dual monitors. Hooking up an external monitor splits the VRAM between the two displays, so each one would only have 32 MB if you didn't get the upgrade.

For Photoshop? No, the video card doesn't matter one bit. The only pro app that really needs a good graphics card is, as far as I know, Motion, which I think is for making special effects or something. There are a couple others, but the only real uses for lots of VRAM are for OS X eye candy and games. And like I said, the eye candy will still look great with 64 MB.

[torifile]

The thing about the VRAM thing: it's the only part you asked about that you can't upgrade later.

[mers]

Thanks Luca.

I hadn't thought of the power drain that would be caused by a portable 3.5" ... and judging by the prices of large drives and external bus powered enclosures, I'm getting the 80GB now and getting an external 2.5" eventually for the road. Thanks for the correction on Firewire 400 port, too.

I also hadn't realized that I would be splitting video memory across two displays, which I intend to do. And as torifile pointed out, it's the hardest component to upgrade and has no external alternatives, so 128MB it is.

This leaves me looking at a 15" 1.67GHz Powerbook, 80GB disk, SuperDrive, 128MB graphics card and 512MB of RAM from Apple. At $2,189 and an extra 512MB from Crucial for $90, it's none too shabby :) Thanks for the purchasing advice.

My only two remaining questions, then, are if anyone knows the brand of 1GB sticks Apple puts in their Powerbooks in case I change my mind, and if there's a fact sheet somewhere on what battery life different people get for their particular configuration. That could help me decided if I should get another battery.

Thanks everyone!

[curiousuburb]

Obligatory link to Barefeats testing of Stock 15" PB vs upgraded 15" (http://barefeats.com/pb12.html) (VRAM, drives, etc)...

Normally, the caveat is always max out a laptop (since it usually can't be upgraded later w/out breaking warranty). Suspecting as we do that the next rev Powerbook may sport a G5, this might be a time to wait if you can.

Six months from now may see a generation shift in some of these areas.

[MCQ]

My only two remaining questions, then, are if anyone knows the brand of 1GB sticks Apple puts in their Powerbooks in case I change my mind, and if there's a fact sheet somewhere on what battery life different people get for their particular configuration. That could help me decided if I should get another battery.

Thanks everyone!

Supposedly, the 1GB sticks are Samsung. There's a variety of threads over here and at MacNN on 1GB sticks that people have bought and tried. A search on either forum should point you in the proper direction if you're looking to get a 1GB stick.

OWC sells 1GB Samsung SO-DIMMs for $219 currently.
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Samsung/27SAMSO1GB/

I'm currently using a 1GB Mushkin stick in my 12" PB without issues, cost about $200 from them online.

As far as a next-gen PB, I'd recommend against waiting, since it's inevitable that the first-gen will have issues that have to be ironed out first.

[JK47]

Excellent thread, you asked alot of the questions i was pondering.
One more question, how diddicult is it to install RAM in a G4 Powerbook? Are there any special tools required for the procedure? Thanks in advance for the feedback.

[chipz]

Ram is easy to change in tghe PB. Just open the cover by removing 4 small screws and put in the RAM chip

There are outboard FW HD available in sizes up to 200 GB. They are out out bt LaCie and are available from sources online as well as at Apple stores.

[RobM]

Just chip in here about an ext monitor splitting the vRam, quite right of course.

But if you sleep the PB by closing the lid then wake it back up - the full 128 gets thrown onto the ext. Mine ? - latest 17" PB running an Apple 20". Fast enough to run Motion, although it does get bogged down when things start to get complicated.
The 128 card is the way to go as Tiger will eat vRam and you'll be thankful you've got it esp if you are going to run an ext monitor with the laptop screen as well.

[LudwigVan]

Ram is easy to change in tghe PB. Just open the cover by removing 4 small screws and put in the RAM chip.

Yup, it is easy from the looks of it. Instructions are found in the PowerBook's "Getting Started" (http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/powerbook/PowerBookG4_12inch1.5GHzUserGuide.pdf) guide [PDF file]. (The guide to which I linked was written for the current 12" model; guides to other PowerBook models may be found here (http://www.apple.com/support/powerbook/), on the right side under "Documentation".)

[eeyoredragon]

Here's a stupid question, do you have full access to both memory slots on the Powerbook? Meaning, there is no "built in" ram is there that I'm not able to access?

[frizz]

Full access to both slots (one on top of the other)

[craniac]

A related question: If I buy a new 15" PB on July 1st, is Apple going to come out with "better" models six months later?

[adambbraly]

A related question: If I buy a new 15" PB on July 1st, is Apple going to come out with "better" models six months later?
It's quite possible that newer models will come out, but that's true in any situation when waiting 6 months! Plus, if you buy a model right when it's released there is a pretty big chance that you're gunna be back and forth to an Apple store with minor repairs, etc. Early adopters usually get the short end of the stick. So I'd say buy now, and get what you want. No matter what a 15" PB is going to blow the pants off the competition.

[eeyoredragon]

A related question: If I buy a new 15" PB on July 1st, is Apple going to come out with "better" models six months later?Like the last poster said basically... what does it matter? Six months??? I'd be concerned if it were like... 1 month, but this is the computer industry we're talking about. In the PC world, your bleeding edge system is passe' in 6 months.

The things to think about are:
1. There will always be something "better" coming around the corner
2. If you're always waiting for that better thing, you'll never own a laptop.

It'd be one thing if you knew they were going to shove a dual core g4 in there with a massively faster bus or a g5, but there's no real indication that that's going to be the case.

Just bite the bullet if you need a laptop. If it's that big a deal to you that you'd be waiting six months for the next revision, I think you should revalute if you even need to be getting a new laptop, of it it's just an emotional want.

[adambbraly]

I have the same worries deep in my gut about purchasing a 15" PB for college just because it IS 2,500 bucks, but I'm willing to let that go because I want this computer SO badly. Sure, I will be mad at myself if dual-core/etc come out a month after I buy (which will be at the end of the month :lol: ), but I'll still by really happy that I have one of the best laptops on the planet.