View Full Version : Cupertino, start your copiers! (Konfabulator)
Have you guys seen the new graphics at the Konfabulator website (http://www.konfabulator.com/)?
"Cupertino, start your copiers!" In an obvious allusion to Apple ripping off Konfabulator to make Dashboard.
Escher
alcimedes
2004-06-28, 16:41
yeah, that's a bit of an ugly mess, to say the least. not sure what all will happen with this. hopefully it will drive the konfab crew to produce an even better product. however, it would have been nice if apple had offered to purchase or license the idea instead of just rolling it in.
i am surprised they never patented the idea, but i guess that's not really at the forefront of your mind while developing software.
i am surprised they never patented the idea, but i guess that's not really at the forefront of your mind while developing software.
My hunch is that Konfabulator wasn't "novel" enough/too obvious to get a patent. Plus patent agents/lawyers are expensive.
Apple ripped off Watson from Karelia to make Sherlock. Then they ripped off LiteSwitch X from Proteron to make the application switcher in Panther. Now, they're going to rip off Konfabulator from Pixoria to make Dashboard in Tiger. Nothing new. But it's still despicable. :(
At least it looks like Karelia has just managed to sell its Watson technology (http://www.macminute.com/2004/06/28/watson) to a "big company" (apparently Sun for use as part of Java). Maybe the Konfabulator guy will be able to do the same.
Escher
Apple ripped off Watson from Karelia to make Sherlock. Then they ripped off LiteSwitch X from Proteron to make the application switcher in Panther.I still maintain that Sherlock 3 was the natural evolution of where the Sherlock 2 was going. S2 had people, shopping, reference, etc. search options. It only makes sense to expect the next version to have more advanced features expanding on these basic options. Watson just happened to beat Apple to the punch.
LiteSwitch X itself wasn't original. There have been plenty of app switchers, all of which can be traced back to Microsoft Windows anyhow. I think it's laughable that anyone can say Apple ripped off LiteSwitch X.
Dashboard and Konfabulator? Yeah, it looks like Apple is being naughty here. :\ These two look, act, and are even programmed the same (JavaScript). I will try to reserve final judgement until I've actually used Dashboard, though.
MacUsers
2004-06-28, 17:37
I guess I like the way this guy from Macrumors put it
-Apple attempted to institute apps or "widgets" in the dock before Konfab existed. Then they tried the menu bar, now expose.
-Konfab does not offer the same feature set shown in the dashboard. Period. Sit down.
-If we're going to get down to who came first, Apple wins with.....HYPERCARD. Do you people remember? The first widget maker á la Apple.
-Konfab is run by ex-Apple employees - what inside knowledge did they steal??
-Like I care. Make a real piece of software then I'll listen when you whine that Apple just smoked you.
-Konfab is a resource pig and I will be happy to see Apple do it right.
I had quite the discussion about Watson vs. Sherlock 3 earlier. He said that Sherlock 3 was just a natural evolution, while I said that it was a blatant rip-off of Watson that eventually led to Watson's demise. I really think it's both.
See, you have to get inspiration somewhere. As original as some things are, they were still inspired by something else. So you have to draw the line between "inspired by" and "copied from." In my opinion, Konfabulator is inspired by the old desk accessories, and Watson is inspired by Sherlock. Taken independently of Watson, Sherlock 3 does look like the natural evolution of Sherlock 2. But when you look at them side by side, it's blindingly obvious that Apple lifted the design straight from Watson. They barely even bothered to change things around enough to make them look different.
But then you get into the Microsoft-like handling of Sherlock 3. This is where it really got ugly. Apple gave absolutely no credit to Watson, they implied that they were the first to do anything like this, they made an inferior product, and they made it free to anyone who buys Jaguar! If that doesn't spell MS to you, I don't know what will. So, while I agree that Sherlock 3 is a natural evolution of Sherlock 2, it's too much like Watson for it to be a coincidence. Now look what has happened - Watson, the FAR superior product, is kaput, while Sherlock 3 seems to be going along like always: slow, stagnant and unchanged. I sure hope the same doesn't happen with Konfabulator.
Pulling cheap stunts like the ones we're talking about is going to drive small developers away from the Mac. Who wants to put the time into implementing your awesome new idea when you know Apple's just going to lift your design and give it to everyone in a year or so anyway?
My response to the MacRumors points: "You haven't even used the bloody app, quit trying to act like you know what it's like." I'm with Brad on this much at least. I want to see Dashboard before I decide whether it's a complete ripoff of Konfabulator, or just a semi-ripoff.
MacUsers
2004-06-28, 17:49
Good point Luca... lets wait until Tiger come out for this discussion.
LiteSwitch X itself wasn't original. There have been plenty of app switchers, all of which can be traced back to Microsoft Windows anyhow
I remember when cmd + power switched applications, rather than allowed you to crash your Mac in interesting ways. :)
So, while I agree that Sherlock 3 is a natural evolution of Sherlock 2, it's too much like Watson for it to be a coincidence. Now look what has happened - Watson, the FAR superior product, is kaput, while Sherlock 3 seems to be going along like always: slow, stagnant and unchanged.
Yup, which I why I still use Watson daily. Honestly, I don't recall *ever* firing up Sherlock 3 past it's initial install from Panther. Off my dock, unsightly beast, Watson rules.
I want to see Dashboard before I decide whether it's a complete ripoff of Konfabulator, or just a semi-ripoff.I don't. If the purported Tiger screenshots are accurate Dashboard is going to be clunky and ugly as hell. At least Arlo & Co. got a clue (after a year or so) and started designing 'mini-widgets'. To me those are useful, a huge neon red calculator is not. The thing about all of this that irks me is that the Konfab widgets (not 'gadgets' as the screenshot implied...at least change the fucking name, Apple) look more 'Apple' than the Tiger widgets. :rolleyes:
Actually, the big-assed widgets are *better* in my opinion, because Dashboard solves the one problem I always had with Konfabulator... it ate up my damned screenspace! What's the point of an always on top widget, really? Easy to see? Great. You just have to make sure there's nothing underneath it. Always. And people bitched about the *Dock*, at least that's a small strip along one side, not a chunk in the middle of the screen.
Konfabulator was useless to me because I *didn't* want an always-on widget, what I want is a bunch of easy to check at a glance items that can *made to go away*. Dashboard does exactly that.
Because Konfabulator widgets *had* to be kept visible at all times, it *necessitated* making mini-widgets just to keep the rest of the screen useful... which reduces their usefulness as 'quick check' indicators. Not quick if you gotta squint.
Ethics questions aside, I think Dashboard is Konfabulator done *right*... which in turn was just Desk Accessories done *better*. I *am* really and truly well puzzled by the choice of Javascript though. That's just... silly. Was silly for Konfab, is silly for Dashboard.
Watson or Sherlock? Both. I use Watson about 90% of the time.
Dashboard or Konfabulator? Neither.
alcimedes
2004-06-28, 20:07
Konfab (with their ability to embedd into the desktop) finally became useful to me, and i am actually running it constantly now. of course, i only run the weather one. everything else i can't find useful enough to want to cover up my cool desktop. :)
thegelding
2004-06-28, 22:26
it is kinda funny and sad though when arlo complains that people will stop writing software for apple....what are they gonna do? write for PCs?? oh yeah, microsoft would never steal, borrow nor take an idea and make it their own...
time will tell
i don't use watson, but then i don't use sherlock 3 either
i don't use konfab and i probably won't use dashboard....
g
alcimedes
2004-06-28, 22:37
wasn't konfab taken from a windows idea initially? my memory is hazy.
i don't use watson, but then i don't use sherlock 3 either
i don't use konfab and i probably won't use dashboard....
Exactly the same situation here. A few Menu Items (WeatherPop, Monitors, AirPort, Sound, Battery, and Date/Time) give me everything I need.
I've never used Watson, Sherlock, or Konfabulator, and I'm unlikely ever to use Dashboard. But I'm glad the options are out there, even if the competition sometimes seems unfair (thus the thread).
Escher
curiousuburb
2004-06-28, 22:58
wasn't konfab taken from a windows idea initially? my memory is hazy.
OneClick (1997) (http://www.designwrite.com/oneclick/)
Desk Accessories (Apple System 6)
Apple is returning to a field it planted long ago.
This businees of blatantly ripping off Konfab seems a little unethical to me... but then again if it wasn't patented in the first place, then there is not much Arlo can really do about it, is there?
Having said that, I think Apple's implementation of Widgets (geez - they did not even bother to think of another name for those mini apps :rolleyes: ) is the most sensible/logical.
I mean, I also loved the Weather & Calendar widgets in Konfabulator (well the mini versions anyway), but since I read this thread (http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=640) I decided to clean up my desktop and rely on Meteo, MenuMeters and MenuCalendar instead. I love them - and they have freed up my desktop. Now, if I really want a widget I just launch Konfabulator and load it up. But I seriously have not had cause to since I loaded up the menu bar items.
Having said this, I think the way Apple is presenting the dashboard (expose style with widget prefences on the flip side) is the most efficient way to do it. With the inclusion of expose in Panther (and the various failed attempts at implementing docklings and a plethora of menubar items) it makes it seem like it was leading up to this ... why didn't we see it coming?
As for Sherlock/ Watson - never used them. I don't get Sherlock - what does it do that you can't accomplish with a browser yourself?
Konfabulator - used it, but relegated it now that I have Menubar items.
Dashboard - shit, I'm still on "Jagwire" :lol: ... I'm yet to use Expose, so I don't know how accustomed I'll become to relying on the dashboard feature. :shrugs:
This businees of blatantly ripping off Konfab seems a little unethical to me... but then again if it wasn't patented in the first place, then there is not much Arlo can really do about it, is there?
Nope. Patents are to protect ideas, copyright is to protect implementation. All Apple had to do was write their own version, and they were free and clear.
Sucks to be Arlo right now, and no, not everyone can afford a top notch patent attorney, but that *is* the legal mechanism for idea protection.
I've wondered if Konfabulator doesn't impinge in some way on an Apple patent for Desk Accessories, to be honest. The original DAs were pretty widget-like.
alcimedes
2004-06-28, 23:34
the more i read, the more it sounds like Konfab was the only current implementation of an idea that has been around with Apple for some time. like a lot of ideas that didn't make it into OSX, widgets were one of them.
Apple's going to implement them again, and for those who were using them, it sucks.
For all you people saying that you're happy that Dashboard will basically be Konfabulator plus Exposé style quick hiding... you probably don't know that Konfabulator recently released (just a few days ago in fact) an update that added the exact same functionality. I was thinking the same thing - oh look, it's Konfab but with a quick show/hide function! Then I went to konfabulator.com and saw that they had already come out with the same exact thing themselves.
You can argue the inner legalities of it, but I mean, come on.... Konfabulator was out before Apple was working on Dashboard most likely. They're both so damn similar that it's a total slap in the face to Arlo and his team to do this. What's worse is Apple shows it off at the WWDC keynote where Arlo was probably sitting. If you were there near him, you probably saw a BUNCH of heads turn in his general direction when Dashboard was previewed there.
Total bitchslap from Apple to Arlo. Bad form, should have been done differently.
Total bitchslap from Apple to Arlo. Bad form, should have been done differently.
How else could they have handled it? Would it have been better if Apple just bought Konfabulator? Not really. At least this way Arlo Rose keeps his baby and gets to innovate his way past Dashboard if he chooses to. He can also sit on his hands like Netscape did with Navigator 3.0.x and 4.0.x until it's too late if he wants.
I'm sure Dan Wood isn't feeling too bad now. He just licensed Watson to Sun and will be conceding all development of the app to them. That means the current version of Watson will eventually cease to be useful as modules break over time. That's really a shame for use, but a boon for him. Watson gave him a good run, but I'm sure he'd rather work on new projects instead of just maintaining Watson and providing tech support for it.
For all you people saying that you're happy that Dashboard will basically be Konfabulator plus Exposé style quick hiding... you probably don't know that Konfabulator recently released (just a few days ago in fact) an update that added the exact same functionality. I was thinking the same thing - oh look, it's Konfab but with a quick show/hide function! Then I went to konfabulator.com and saw that they had already come out with the same exact thing themselves.
According to Arlo he knew about Dashboard before WWDC (when he learned about it, I don't know), and I think that Konsposé is a rip off of Dashboard.
Btw. Konfabulator is basically a rip off of DesktopX for Windows.
InactionMan
2004-06-29, 11:21
It seems that Konfab and Dashboard aren't really the same dealy. It kinda seems to me that Dashboard is an extension of the Services Menu. Which is great because I always forgot about that Menu even though it gives quick access to a lot of useful crud.
I *am* really and truly well puzzled by the choice of Javascript though. That's just... silly. Was silly for Konfab, is silly for Dashboard.
Why is it silly? Javascript is actually a pretty cool language, and is widely used for this kind of task already (dynamic HTML). Apple is using WebKit to create the widgets (which makes sense) so using anything *but* Javascript would have been silly in my opinion.
The only obvious alternative I can see is AppleScript which appears totally inappropriate to this task.
More clarification from Dave Hyatt on Dashboard widgets:
"each widget is just a web page, and so you have the full power of WebKit behind each one... CSS2, DOM2, JS, HTML, XMLHttpRequest, Flash, Quicktime, Java, etc"
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2004_06.html#005876
Messiahtosh
2004-06-30, 15:13
Konfab's argument is bullshit, there is nothing innovative about their implimentation of an old Apple technology. Apple is just taking an old idea from the 80's and putting it into OS X, bundling it, and in doing so putting Konfab out of business.
Think of it this way: Not Konfabulator comes free with all new Macs w/Tiger in 2005 or as part of the upgrade to Tiger. Konfabulator did not invent the idea, Apple did. Konfab started their copiers long ago, now they are pretending to have come up with the very idea they copied.
The only obvious alternative I can see is AppleScript which appears totally inappropriate to this task.
Hmmm. The more I find out about how the underlying engine works, I guess you're right.
But *STILL*, blast it. Integrate Javascript into the OSA, make WebKit an *OSA-scriptable* engine, and then Dashboard widgets can play nice with every freaking app out there. Think about it - whip up the interface in OmniCoreImageEditor ;), load into Dashboard, write the script with Automator, and hook together. Voila.
Of course, you could also whip up a standard looking interface with InterfaceBuilder, write the script in Automator, and hook it in *now*... well, if Automator was out. ;)
InactionMan
2004-06-30, 18:21
Daring Fireball has a great article on the Konfab VS Dashboard death match.
Clickage (http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator)
Windows Breaker G4
2004-06-30, 20:43
You know it is not like Arlo Rose is poor by any means
Well, it's not like that really has anything to do with right or wrong, you know.
Apple reimplemented an idea that has been kicking around for 20 years, and some might say they invented in the first place, borrowing ideas from *many* sources, including, mostly, their own work.
There is a superficial *strong* resemblance to Konfabulator, but the guts are very very different, and the ideas themselves from many sources.
Daring Fireball has a great article on the Konfab VS Dashboard death match.
Clickage (http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator)Agreed, a nice well-written article.
For anyone that doesn't want to read the entire article, the basic premise is that Apple invented the idea 20 years ago and that the guts are completely different and not similar to Konfabulator at all. That means they wouldn't benefit whatsoever from obtaining Konfabulator. Also he mentions how much easier it is for people to develop Dashboard widgets as opposed to Konfabulator, and he's right.
At this point, Dashboard's implementation is simply better and the method for creating widgets is a lot more flexible and accessible to more people. Also Dashboard should be a lot faster. It appears that Apple has completely rewritten the JavaScript engine so that it is about 3 to 4 times faster than Mozilla's JavaScript engine which Konfabulator uses. On a particular JavaScript test, it took one Mac about 2 minutes to complete the entire test using Safari 1.2.2, with 1.3 the same test was completed in 16 (!) seconds :eek:
On a dual 2ghz powermac g5, the same test was completed in 7 seconds, the fastest on the site on any combination of browser, operating system and computer.
InactionMan
2004-06-30, 23:53
Yeah, he did a very good job of explaining why Apple had nothing to gain from buying Konfab. It does seem to me that Arlo Rose is more pissed that he wasn't offered a fat cheque from Apple than he is about them stealing his idea.
Yes, they did.
In the same way that Konfabulator stole from Desk Accessories, DesktopX, OneClick, and other sources.
If Arlo had an idea worth protecting, and was truly innovative, he needed to patent it. It's what we have patents *for*. My guess? It wouldn't have been granted one, because it wasn't something that qualified as not 'obvious to one skilled in the art'. The idea has been around for twenty years in one form or another.
Dashboard also adds a significant amount of functionality under the hood that Konfabulator lacks, in addition to the instant-accessibility toggle. (Which yes, Konfabulator just added... three days before Dashboard was announced. Arlo *did* have advance knowledge of Dashboard if you look at some of his comments... how much in advance, whether he knew about the fade in/out that makes Dashboard finally usable over Konfabulator's model, IMHO, and whether he went "D'oh!" and implemented it quickly, we may never know... but it certainly makes for good drama.)
windowsblowsass
2004-07-01, 00:55
crazy apple rumors has posted a piece on how this will be settled
Jobs To Fight Rose After WWDC.
According to numerous paper notes being passed in sessions at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference, CEO Steve Jobs will fight Konfabulator co-creator Arlo Rose near the swings outside the Moscone Center after the conference concludes
click to read the full story (http://ww.crazyapplerumors.com) :lol:
(Arlo *did* have advance knowledge of Dashboard if you look at some of his comments... how much in advance we may never know... but it certainly makes for good drama.)
May 10, 2004 (http://www2.konfabulator.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3716)??? :\
Messiahtosh
2004-07-01, 17:34
Widgets on the first Lisa GUI...who had it first? Apple.
http://members.fortunecity.com/pcmuseum/lisadsk.gif
BuonRotto
2004-07-06, 14:36
Can a person patent or copyright an idea at all? As far as I've always understood, you can protect an application or implementation of an idea, but ideas are a free-for-all. Nobody owns them.
Back in college, this was a big issue when you're designing your project. A professor would throw out a few ideas during your crit and at first everyone hesistates to use them in their own project because they felt it wasn't their idea. Our professors would berate us about how no one owns ideas, that they're a dime a dozen, what matters is how you develop it/express it, and that your project can have more than one. As a professional now, my intellectual property isn't the idea, the drawings and models that express the idea are my property though.
Also, I want to ponit out that while some knee-jerk reactions are to point out how Apple has taken others' ideas without compensating or paying for the original product, remember that Apple has bought a slew of other apps in the recent past, many before they ever get to market, and they have hired a ton of people who often contributed ideas from the outside and are considered experts in their field. For every Dashboard, we have an iTunes and a Dave Hyatt. Clearly, Apple isn't "Screwing" its developer base willy nilly but is being selective and critical of what it buys and who they hire.
SilentEchoes
2004-07-06, 15:40
First: Who cares what they call the mini-apps. Apple has been using the word widget for a long time. Is this really such a big deal?
Second: K was a shitty application that used horrid amounts of resources and became useless as soon as you started opening applications and couldn't see your desktop anymore. Its called competition, you know like statoo or any of the many apps that are ripping off K.
So if I am a developer and I see this really crappy application that I have a far better idea for like building it into expose AND using webkit, I should sit there and use the crappy application instead of developing my own? Come on people thats just ridiculous.
The only thing that is remotely the same about them is they use small floating applications or "widgets" or what ever you want to call them. Thats it. They don't even have the same method of execution as each other.
Now should we get after Apple for building a web browser too? I mean they soooo stole that idea from place.. Im sure of it.
You guys all want them to come out with the next photoshop killer or Office killer but you bitch when they do come out with a competing product that happens to be far superior to the competition. I don't get it.
Honestly, I think I like the Konfabulator implementation of a widget more than Dashboard's. I prefer it that they are always sitting on my desktop, since the ones I use feed realtime info, weather, news etc... I like to just notice them as I move from application to finder and whatnot. No need to call them up specifically. Oh, and the Dashboard widgets are look like ass.
curiousuburb
2004-07-08, 23:57
Apple wasn't the first to use the term "widgets" to refer to a class of generic manufactured product or component.
OS/2, OSF/MOTIF, SGI, and Mozilla have all used (http://www.google.com/search?q=word+origin+widget&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) the term for meta-things or interface elements (http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=widget), some before Apple, some after.
Guinness drinkers in the UK and certain export markets will know "widget" is the trademarked name for the spinning plastic Nitrogen-emitting device that helps aerate the black brew from cans in an attempt to mimic a properly pulled pint's creamy head. Admittedly this is long after most other usages of the term listed above.
IIRC, economists have been using widget/gadget/gizmo to describe abstract production since the 50s. "Imagine a company produces x quantity of widgets" sounds like something out of one of my old microeconomics textbooks. I'm 90% certain I heard the word widget before Apple was formed.
alt.english.usage FAQ (http://www.yaelf.com/aueFAQ/mifwdgtntsbywllmcw.shtml) suggests the term first appeared in an Play in 1924 to refer to unspecified, generic product.
OMG! Apple is ripping off "Beggar on Horseback".
Steve must be planning to release iBroadway! :rolleyes:
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