View Full Version : Comments and Questions
crazychester
2004-05-16, 18:56
Well now that the discussion of this business has been killed off at .com, it looks like this is the only place to talk about it.
Do I feel "safe" talking about it here? Hell no! That whole "Lord of the Flies" thing that happened yesterday was pretty disturbing. Having read several comments about the purpose of the Clinic, I don't have too much of a problem with it vis-a-vis what was apparently discussed in it most of the time.
But I am still having trouble with this plot having been hatched there. I can't help but feel there is the elite, the friends of the elite, and then the rest of us. I'm not really sure what the status of the rest of us is. Is this really about the community running the show or the elite running the show? I can't tell at the moment. One of the results of the Clinic for me is that the genuineness of all of you has been called into question. I don't trust any of you anymore.
I have only been able to read the first page of the TRC thread (can't get the rest to download alcimedes - says it's a 3.6 MB d/l but it just keeps going on and on). Not really all that secret really. All the usual suspects and the storyline was pretty predictable.
There are a few worrisome things on that first page. At some point somebody talks about a few hundred core posters and the implication seems to be they are the heart and soul of AI. Hmmm. Excuse me while I squeeze myself around the gigantic chips on your shoulders. But then others claim we're all one and equals. Well I'm not feeling very equal right now. I think my place will be decided by the elite and the friends of the elite. More so here than I ever did at .com. It seems there's no place here for OSaddictX (not sure I got that handle right but you know who I mean) because of a prior falling out with Brad. Perhaps someone could post a complete list of who's on the outer.
Brad, hope the sinuses are coming along fine, love your work man but jeez all the hero worship stuff is a bit of a worry. Not that you can be held responsible for that. Just commenting.
I know there has been shit flung between Brad and Amorph during yesterday's debacle but were there problems between you two prior to this? If so what was the basis of them? What about the relationship between other mods and admins? Were there feelings that some were siding with Kasper before all this went down?
Personally, I think the ad thing is a storm in a teacup but then I've never got sound with AI (dial-up?) so I've never heard Tina (actually I've always felt a bit cheated by that). And I don't think I ever really noticed the ads until they were talked about (no wonder I didn't find the TRC!). Slower page loading? Like I said, I'm on dial-up. What's a few more seconds. Besides, there was the solution for those that worried by them.
The other thing that comes out on that first page is discontent about the behaviour of some people. Firstly, while AO can and did turn into a cesspit from time to time, it is pretty tame compared to many place on the Net. Secondly, while there are revolutionaries who feel that behaviour needs to be much more moderated, there are also revolutionaries who (if you can believe stuff they've said at .com, and right now who knows) wanted less moderation. How do you plan to reconcile these differing views at .org?
I found the moderation at .com to be a lottery. Hardly any rhyme no reason to it whatsoever. Very entertaining. I jump on locked threads in AO not because I want to see the shit fly but because it's fun to wonder "how come that got locked" or "why wasn't it locked 3 pages back". I marvel at the apparent randomness of it all. But I didn't really have any problem with this. In the end, the mods did a pretty good job of maintaining the tone of the place in their own headless chicken kind of way.
This is one of the things that worries me though. I was very happy with the admin/mod team there and would have felt a lot more comfortable if they had been transferred en masse to here. I'm concerned about what power-tripping, control freak fuckers might become my Lords and Masters here (assuming that this is a real community and not a clique of the elite and friends of the elite - that remains to be seen).
As far as I could tell, Kasper didn't interfere in the moderation of the boards much. Am I wrong about this? Assuming I'm not, then people who are complaining about bad behaviour are actually complaining about the way at least some of .com's admins/mods did the job aren't they?
Anyway, even though I have a lot more questions, this post is already too long. For that, I apologise. Please try not to be condescending in your replies because, basically, it just really pisses me off. I've never been able to get off on that whole status thing whether it be based on post count, time registered or whatever.
After all that "inmates running the asylum" behaviour yesterday, AFAIC, you guys have got a bit of work to do. But maybe that's the general idea and I'm just too dumb to see that some of us are meant to be put off so that you end up with a "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" group here.
Ooops! One more question re: the mole. I don't want to know who they are but I would like to know why they exposed the Clinic. To suck up to Kasper or because they thought the wider community should have some say in this?
Well, I look at it this way chest, you can't call me wobot anymore nyuk nyuk nyuk
crazychester
2004-05-16, 19:04
Well, I look at it this way chest, you can't call me wobot anymore nyuk nyuk nyuk
Think again wobot. Or maybe Curly? (that was the one that said nyuk x3 wasn't it?)
thegelding
2004-05-16, 19:14
i guess, for me, the best thing is that there is still that AI.com...so if somebody doesn't like it here or feel safe or trusting here, then they can still hang there...
personally i am still checking both forums for a while...but i have made this one my default and haven't posted to the other since yesterday...
as far as i can tell, two things:
one, many mods are coming here...so it should have the same general feel
two, it wasn't just ads and money and personalities...it was a lack of forward motion that made some here want to splinter...
more choice equal good for us...
and if this AI gets links from thinksecret and others, wow, that would be great news
g
CosmoNut
2004-05-16, 19:16
Chester,
I'm going on a date here in a little while, so I don't have much time to reply to everything you said. I do want to clarify, however, that the thread in the Clinic was not meant to be just for the "Elite" and the friends of the "Elite."
The term "Elite" only refers to those in the Clinic who found it through the link in the original thread in Suggestions. That's it. Those who found it through "View New Posts" or "Who's Online" were more than welcome in the Clinic, but we kind of gave them a hard time that was all in good fun.
The long thread in the Clinic about the "Revolucion" was meant for a sort of focus group that was the people in the Clinic. If you've read the first page of the thread, you'll know that at some point after .org was set up (the way it was supposed to be) that the other membership of AI.com's forums would be let in on what was happening. I think that the thought at the time, though, was that having that conversation with EVERYONE in AI from the beginning would have been detrimental to the whole process; and it would have been easier for Kasper to find out what we were doing.
In hindsight, all of that was a very bad idea. We saw the reprecussions of that yesterday...and this place now exists in a very half-ass way -- frankly -- because of it.
I'll probably write more later, but I need to change before going to pick up my lass. :)
I think AI.com can and will exist, and be a relatively strong source of rumors and 'insider' info. But that doesn't mean that we have to talk about it there ;)
billybobsky
2004-05-16, 19:19
chester,
for me the clinic amounted to a once a day visit if i even remembered to do so -- it was slow moving and not very content filled for the most part. i always have felt closer to the community in AO than in any of the other forums. while i can see your point that this "poll" from which this place was founded was in the hidden forum, I also know that most of the members that found the clinic were just randomly clicking links in the .com tangled web. that said, it did, for the most part, represent an average cross section of interests. I don't feel that this place will change the feel of the .com. Most of the same players are here and running the show, and more than ever I think they are open to our suggestions, if not screw them, right? We now have a choice to spend our time here or there... Right now, I am worried that splitting the population of say AO and the new influx of visitors that may or may not surface when the spat becomes web bound, the older community members voices may be surpressed.
In a web based forum (pun intended), i think it is hard for the voices of the participants to be outweighed by the administrators...
This is a community... It is the same community that was in .com...
i at least would like to see everyone that was there here... even further, i had hoped that kasper and company (or maybe company only because i suspect kasper is a pawn in all this) would recognize that the forums could be run better by separating them off, which i believe was the intention of locash and brad (and perhaps others)...
I welcome you chester and hope you are still willing to show my your flagellum if i show you mine :)
bbs
I just want to echo some of the sentiments in this thread. The Clinic was just a place to blow off steam for me and a place where I could share content that would not be appropriate for general consumption, like The Most Offensive Song Ever. :eek:
As for La Revolucion, lord knows I'm partly responsible for kicking up so much dust. :( Like was said, the thread was a focus group to see what people would think about a split. I don't think anyone really thought that it was going to happen so soon and in such a manner. Similarly, I don't know if my posts from that thread made it into the PDF or not, but I still stand by them. What makes AI great is the users and the community that has been fostered. I saw how Brad and LoCash were treated by Kasper in the Mod's forum and I think that reflected poorly on how he viewed us. Also the way Kasper chose to deal with the situation reaffirms in my mind that the right thing was done. Rather than engaging the community in what changes needed to be made and trying to work with us on the problems we had, the ban stick came out and people were upset.
I don't think anyone is happy how this entire thing went down on either side. But at this point some people won't be coming here and others won't be going back. It is what it is and we need to work on making this place what we wanted .com to be. :)
One important thing to note is that over at appleinsider.com, they're banning people that talk about appleinsider.org. I've been banned, so has Brad and a few others. They are censoring posts like mad. Over here, we really have no desire to do. People are free to discuss and make their own decisions about where they want to be, and even if people did begin talking about ai.com here, I wouldn't consider it a threat.
It goes to show how petty Kasper's actions have been. His threatening to sue me was the icing on the cake. He doesn't much care about his community, because he hasn't listened to them since day one.
torifile
2004-05-16, 20:08
Chester,
I'm sorry you feel as though you're the odd person out in this situation. I participated in the TRC but not because I felt "elite" or anything but because I knew I could get away with posting not-so-kosher stuff in there. Like I got busted downloading gigs of Simpson's episodes in my office using bittorrent. Rather than post about it in a "public" place (where people I didn't want to know - read IT guy - could easily see), I posted in the TRC. Another time, I was having (am having) some family problems. Again, since I knew who posted in the TRC, I felt more comfortable posting in there. I wouldn't have done that in AO.
It wasn't so the "cool kids" could snicker behind their hands at the rest of the forum. It wasn't like that at all. I'm sorry if you felt like that. I can only speak for myself, but I never considered us "better" than the rest (well, except for a few of the kids I would like to get rid of ;)) I'd like if you stayed here. :)
BTW, I think I'm done with AI.com. One of my posts was unceremoniously edited by FCiB for no reason. I'm fairly upset by it, actually, because my post was not inflammatory and was completely on topic. Very uncool. I'm disappointed in him.
There was no way that the Clinic was really secret. Being a new posts boy meant that I discovered this "secret" forum on day 1. Given that I had less than 200 posts at the time, it was hardly for the "elite".
If you actually saw most of the threads there was not much of "value" other than people conversing with each other in a respectful manner and having a bit of a laugh with one another. It was just a place to relax and enjoy, especially after a good flame war in AO!
:)
[mental note]Must remember to clean my cache for more smilies[\mental note]
crazychester
2004-05-16, 20:32
I'd like to sit back and just read for a while but can't help but address some of your comments. I'm going to have to do a Carol and reply to each in separate posts.
i guess, for me, the best thing is that there is still that AI.com...so if somebody doesn't like it here or feel safe or trusting here, then they can still hang there...g
See I actually think you need to be trying a bit harder than that g (but thanks to those who did). That's exactly the sort of thing that leaves me feeling a little nervous. But then you surprised me a lot yesterday g. I had no idea you felt so bitter about stuff.
And it's not that I desperately require some reassurance. I'm beyond the point in my life where I feel the need to be validated by other people - especially strangers on the internet.
But whatever happens to either site, I will only maintain interest if it remains a broad church. If it's not going to be that, I'd rather be told now so I don't waste anymore time on this.
crazychester
2004-05-16, 20:38
I think that the thought at the time, though, was that having that conversation with EVERYONE in AI from the beginning would have been detrimental to the whole process; and it would have been easier for Kasper to find out what we were doing.
In hindsight, all of that was a very bad idea. We saw the reprecussions of that yesterday...and this place now exists in a very half-ass way -- frankly -- because of it.
I'll probably write more later, but I need to change before going to pick up my lass. :)
Detrimental in what way (aside from Kasper finding out)?
OT Remember always fuck safe. Don't forget to take condoms deary. Enjoy.
crazychester
2004-05-16, 20:52
I don't feel that this place will change the feel of the .com. Most of the same players are here and running the show, and more than ever I think they are open to our suggestions, if not screw them, right? We now have a choice to spend our time here or there... Right now, I am worried that splitting the population of say AO and the new influx of visitors that may or may not surface when the spat becomes web bound, the older community members voices may be surpressed.
In a web based forum (pun intended), i think it is hard for the voices of the participants to be outweighed by the administrators...
This is a community... It is the same community that was in .com...
i at least would like to see everyone that was there here... even further, i had hoped that kasper and company (or maybe company only because i suspect kasper is a pawn in all this) would recognize that the forums could be run better by separating them off, which i believe was the intention of locash and brad (and perhaps others)...
Hmmm. Interesting your comment about Kasper being a pawn (almost typed porn!).
But see billybob, it doesn't seem to be the same people who will be running the show. And this concerns me. One of the things I'm worried about is the potential powerplays here. People being made mods (maybe inappropriate people) as rewards for loyalty, that sort of thing. And before anybody says, you're jealous because you're not in line for modship. No I'm not. Strikes me as an awful position to put yourself in. I respected all that mods and admins at .com largely because, as far as I could tell, they were a bunch of nice people having to do a yucky job.
Moreover, I'm inclined to think it probably requires a lot more skill than is immediately apparent. I worry this place will end up being run by people who lack the experience and know-how. And will suffer accordingly.
crazychester
2004-05-16, 20:56
I saw how Brad and LoCash were treated by Kasper in the Mod's forum and I think that reflected poorly on how he viewed us. Also the way Kasper chose to deal with the situation reaffirms in my mind that the right thing was done. Rather than engaging the community in what changes needed to be made and trying to work with us on the problems we had, the ban stick came out and people were upset.
I've seen the Mod Forum PDF. How are you so sure where your allegiances should lie? I thought Kasper was a very shadowy figure that only one or two were given direct access to.
billybobsky
2004-05-16, 20:58
modship has been traditionally given to the most experienced people who want the job -- ie the crack addicts...
so far this system has worked...
some have been a little zealous some lie down on the job, but it gets done and i think they really care about this (and that other) place...
crazychester
2004-05-16, 21:05
He doesn't much care about his community, because he hasn't listened to them since day one.
And basically I just have to take your word for that don't I? Whether or not it's true wasn't clearly demonstrated to me by the Mod Forum thread. I'm not saying it's not true. Just trying to figure out who and what to believe.
I've seen the Mod Forum PDF. How are you so sure where your allegiances should lie? I thought Kasper was a very shadowy figure that only one or two were given direct access to.
That's exactly why my 'allegiance' is with .org. Kapser dismissed the concerns that Brad and LoCash raised partially on our behalf. I also think that my opinion has been bared out since the split. While Kasper has been working behind the scenes to censor, delete, and ban, LoCash has been very forthright about what is going on.
Case in point. Kasper is trying to hide what happened. Even deleting the thread where people were discussing it rationally and reasonably. He is not trying to protect the community and maybe mend some fences, he is trying to hide the fact that it happened, why it happened, and what people think about it. Yes, this has been a mess and I don't think that anyone wanted it to go down like this. But like I said above, this is how it's got to be now.
crazychester
2004-05-16, 21:14
Chester,
I'm sorry you feel as though you're the odd person out in this situation. I participated in the TRC but not because I felt "elite" or anything but because I knew I could get away with posting not-so-kosher stuff in there. Like I got busted downloading gigs of Simpson's episodes in my office using bittorrent. Rather than post about it in a "public" place (where people I didn't want to know - read IT guy - could easily see), I posted in the TRC. Another time, I was having (am having) some family problems. Again, since I knew who posted in the TRC, I felt more comfortable posting in there. I wouldn't have done that in AO.
It wasn't so the "cool kids" could snicker behind their hands at the rest of the forum. It wasn't like that at all. I'm sorry if you felt like that. I can only speak for myself, but I never considered us "better" than the rest (well, except for a few of the kids I would like to get rid of ;)) I'd like if you stayed here. :)
BTW, I think I'm done with AI.com. One of my posts was unceremoniously edited by FCiB for no reason. I'm fairly upset by it, actually, because my post was not inflammatory and was completely on topic. Very uncool. I'm disappointed in him.
Ah torifile I don't particularly feel like the odd person out and it wouldn't worry me if I was. I've spent a good part of my life being the odd person out (even cultivating that as part of my "image" from time to time ;) ).
But see your comments about Fellowship is the sort of thing that's depressing for me. Come on, you all know as well as I do that Fellowship is a very decent style of human being. I don't think that has changed in the last 24 hours. I just think everything's gotten very complicated. Who knows what's going on behind the scenes at .com at the moment and what pressures are being brought to bear. Personally, I feel really sorry for the mods and admins trying to hold things together over there and I'll be sorry to see what I thought was a good team broken up.
torifile
2004-05-16, 21:24
But see your comments about Fellowship is the sort of thing that's depressing for me. Come on, you all know as well as I do that Fellowship is a very decent style of human being. I don't think that has changed in the last 24 hours. I just think everything's gotten very complicated. Who knows what's going on behind the scenes at .com at the moment and what pressures are being brought to bear. Personally, I feel really sorry for the mods and admins trying to hold things together over there and I'll be sorry to see what I thought was a good team broken up.
I feel the same way. I PMed him about it. Fellowship helped me get through a rough time a little while back and I really respect him as a person (if you could have seen him when he was new, whew! and now? One of the best mods out there). My trouble isn't with fellowship, really, it's the way things are going over there in general. I know he's a good guy. Just like I know Brad, LoCash, alcimedes, and murbot are good guys. So are Amorph, BuonRotto and Kickaha. Everyone but Kasper. That's what sucks. He's the only bad part of the whole equation. And he's over there. So I'm over here.
crazychester
2004-05-16, 21:31
There was no way that the Clinic was really secret. Being a new posts boy meant that I discovered this "secret" forum on day 1. Given that I had less than 200 posts at the time, it was hardly for the "elite".
If you actually saw most of the threads there was not much of "value" other than people conversing with each other in a respectful manner and having a bit of a laugh with one another. It was just a place to relax and enjoy, especially after a good flame war in AO!
:)
[mental note]Must remember to clean my cache for more smilies[\mental note]
Yes I've had this explained to me numerous times (!) in the last 24 hours.
I noticed Hassan pop up in another thread saying he felt like he wasn't as much a part of the community now that he'd discovered the existence of the TRC. I think it was 709 who first popped up and said to the effect "nah it's all cool man". Which Hassan just seems to have accepted straight off the bat. I struggle to see why one so normally questioning is now so easily convinced. I don't see why I should be.
See those of you who were party to all the behind the scenes action are already up to speed on all this. And while there's many people here I like and respect, there's many people over there I like and respect. I can't see flitting between to forums being an option for me if they both survive. But I also don't relish the idea of having to make a choice.
I guess ultimately I'll go where there are the most informative discussions and witty repartee but there will be many people from either site I would be deeply saddened to see the back of.
Anyway, enough. I need to shut up but will continue to read and may reply later if necessary.
I appreciate all of your openness and civility.
I appreciate all of your openness and civility.
You're either with us or you're with the terrorists!
:p :p
crazychester
2004-05-16, 21:37
if you could have seen him when he was new, whew! and now?
Except for this :D. I did see him then. I lurked for several years before registering. I know! Hard to believe it's the same guy.
alcimedes
2004-05-16, 22:15
i'll try and touch a few bases here, but if i miss some, let me know.
first, the thread in the TRC should be downloadable. if you're having trouble, PM me and i can e-mail it to you if you want it. (although it's really not that interesting, which is kind of the point.) :)
second, as to why the idea wasn't open to the world. there's obviously kasper's reaction, which has been pretty predictable. then there's the real world realities of the situation. Brad was going in for surgery, LoCash was finishing up school crap, i was in the middle of a lot of crap at work and so on and so forth.
basically the folks working on the idea had real lives to work with as well, and we didn't have enough time to devote to fielding hundreds of ideas/questions. better to start small and build up.
the mods here (so far) are all folks who were mods/admins over at .com, so there's be nothing handed out in the way of power for "loyalty".
as for whether or not you feel safe posting here, my understanding is that as long as you make zero mention of the .org site, you're fine. if you do mention it, then who knows. i didn't really think the reaction would be quite so harsh, but feel free to talk about the .com site all day here if it floats your boat.
anyway, you're welcome here if you want to be, i'm sure you're welcome at .com as well, and you can be welcomed to both sites if that's what you want.
one thing to note though is that although all of this happened very suddenly, it has been a problem that's been building for a long time.
crazychester
2004-05-17, 12:00
first, the thread in the TRC should be downloadable. if you're having trouble, PM me and i can e-mail it to you if you want it. (although it's really not that interesting, which is kind of the point.)
Yeah I do want it. I'll PM you at some stage.
Funny you say it's not that interesting because I think just the first page is pretty interesting. Here's some of the things I find interesting:
- there are no dissenters
- there are no questions about the position of the other mods and admins
- there are merely brief passing references to what might be the repercussions in terms of the community
- an awful lot of people seem to have become stupid/naive/braindead all at once to think that thread would safely go unnoticed
I don't think that thread was a beginning. I think it was an end. In fact, now I'm sitting here thinking it was the endplay.
curiousuburb
2004-05-17, 12:34
Yeah I do want it. I'll PM you at some stage.
Funny you say it's not that interesting because I think just the first page is pretty interesting. Here's some of the things I find interesting:
- there are no dissenters
- there are no questions about the position of the other mods and admins
- there are merely brief passing references to what might be the repercussions in terms of the community
- an awful lot of people seem to have become stupid/naive/braindead all at once to think that thread would safely go unnoticed
While I can't speak to the motivations and impressions of other TRC readers,
I suspect that some of the lack of dissent and questioning was due to being a bit gobsmacked (surprised) that such a seemingly blatant mutiny was being discussed under the nose of .com.
It was somewhat surreal to see such "open" (quasi-public in that the TRC wasn't well known, but wasn't really hidden) revolt.
Perhaps there was a vicarious thrill for some because of that "might get discovered at any time" charge that psychologists might equate with the sexual peccadillo some find in exhibitionism or taboo spaces.
Maybe Torifile can chime in with the appropriate references and clinical terms <pun!>.
I don't think that thread was a beginning. I think it was an end. In fact, now I'm sitting here thinking it was the endplay.
Agreed.
I think the "Ad-free AI" poll/thread was the proverbial straw on the camel's back (some sense of the disgruntled mood between mods and Kasper had been bubbling up for a few months and would occasionally surface).
And I would agree that some of the early posts here seemed immature/juvenile/fanboy... here's hoping there'll be some pruning soon (if only to create a better first impression on potential new members than some of the kneejerk responses this first weekend).
High road and all that. Don't provoke fights or legal action. Spam is bad.
Patience and professionalism might be a tall order while nerves are raw, but it should serve both communities better in the long run, and I'd counsel repeated pauses for reflection before folks go off half-cocked madly posting inaccurate or inappropriate content in attempts to build street cred.
I've tried to remain relatively neutral while things shake out.
Kasper's seemingly petulant actions this weekend have served to make .com less desirable in some ways, but I'm equally unimpressed by some members here who've advocated aggressive action to spam or harass.
Curious to here more from all parties concerned.
crazychester
2004-05-17, 13:44
Well I would urge everyone to keep asking yourself questions about this and maybe indulge in a game of hypotheticals.
What would have been Brad's hypothetical response had he been in Kasper's place and discovered a mutiny being planned behind his back?
Hypothetically, if the TRC thread hadn't been discovered, when, where and how was the rest of the membership going to be informed and allowed to discuss it?
Hypothetically, could Brad and LoCash have been playing the TRC participants?
I don't know the answers. But I do know, when you play with shit, you get dirty.
thegelding
2004-05-17, 14:04
first off, you now have two boards to go to...bonus...if you like one more than the other, spend more time there....if you dislike one, stay at the other...
i am still going to both boards and likely will for some time if not as long as they both are around...
secondly, the history is long and involved...i don't know all of it...but i have been around pre and post blackout
after the blackout, also known as "server, what server, do we really need a server to run a website"...a few people worked hard to bring back the forums...lots of hours, lots of love....no front page, just forums...and the forums were the ugly step child of macnn and got very little help or love from the big guns at macnn...still, the forums limped along and grew and it was a home to many....then macnn sold the site and front page to kasper...suddenly the people who worked so hard to "make" the forum where no longer "in charge"...in hindsight (damn that 20/20 vision thing), the admins should have bought the site before kasper, but i don't think they thought that was an option...anyways, new boss makes some changes, upsets some of the admins who felt that this was their baby...new boss and admins don't converse well...people who started the forums thought, "hey, we started these forums once before, we can start them again and make them how we envision them"...and so they set up this as a trial and practice...probably hoping it won't come to this, but being ready if it did...
it happened way to fast and upset many of us...but, in the long and even short run, it can improve both sites...let them compete for our posts...already kasper is asking for suggestions at .com, and i know that the admins here what lots of user input...
all is gonna be fine
g
curiousuburb
2004-05-17, 14:14
Well I would urge everyone to keep asking yourself questions about this and maybe indulge in a game of hypotheticals.
OK... I'll play.
What would have been Brad's hypothetical response had he been in Kasper's place and discovered a mutiny being planned behind his back?
Can't speak to the hypothetical Brad (real Brad does a better impression).
In a business or on board a military ship... mutineers walk the plank.
Exposing your bosses' failings is usually a recipe for dismissal.
In a community or civilian ship... dialogue and compromise attempts first. Plank if req'd.
Hypothetically, if the TRC thread hadn't been discovered, when, where and how was the rest of the membership going to be informed and allowed to discuss it?
IIRC, one plan (once .org was ready) was for the top few hundred posters at .com to get PM or IM invites from friends. If you wanted a particular member to come along, I don't think there was a veto list. All welcome.
Simplest solution might have been to move the TRC thread (perhaps after some editing) into GD/AO for public discussion.
Hypothetically, could Brad and LoCash have been playing the TRC participants?
Playing how?
Manipulating impressions by forging posts is certainly bad form. No question.
But if the content of the mod forum PDF was legitimately quoted from each participant (not forged or selectively edited... which we cannot confirm without unexpurgated access to the archived posts in the Mod forum, I presume), then perhaps people were making informed judgments.
It is possible to argue that everybody likes a little validation and ego boost, and that Brad and LoCash wanted a bit of stroking to balance the attitude they felt from 'Management', but it seems out of character with their thousands of legitimately helpful posts and service to the community to suggest it was all a masturbatory exercise.
I don't know the answers. But I do know, when you play with shit, you get dirty.
Fertilizer smells bad, but new plants sometimes need it. <ok... stretching metaphors>
I endorse your willingness to examine other perspectives.
crazychester
2004-05-17, 15:02
...people who started the forums thought, "hey, we started these forums once before, we can start them again and make them how we envision them"
There should be a "some" before the word "people", shouldn't there?
Which is it again how the community envisions the forums or how (some) people envision them?
I've read in several places the comment that the .com board was getting stale. What exactly is meant by that? Because I'm thinking if the board was getting stale then most of the blame (if blame can be attributed for such a thing) would have to lie with the top posters. To quote CosmoNut from the TRC
the couple hundred of us who are regulars around here? Doesn't he realize that AI would be just a dull rumor news page without us?
The more I read all of your explanations and how you planned this, the more I see what certain comments and threads say, and the more I watch the members list and the number of posts people are making, the more this does look like what you all want is an exclusive little club.
There has already been a comment in another thread about getting rid of the ones you don't like once a bit of time has passed. And now that how much power some of you can wield has been revealed, I've no doubt you can and will do it.
So who do you plan to get rid of? Who didn't you all like? Was it all the same people? Do you have all that worked out too? Who do you want to be missing?
Come on you "we're for the community" folk let's hear what this grand AI vision you all seem to share is.
thegelding
2004-05-17, 15:08
well, i am not one of the ones making any decisions...i will let brad and locash and alcimedes speak for themselves...i think that they truly envision a forum that is a forum, for the people, by the people...no ads, not for profit, everyone has a voice...of course some voices should be louder, but i don't see any bannings or things like that unless "earned" by repeated bad behavior...i would love to see everyone come to both sites...sure i have about 4 people on my "ignore" list at .com....but they aren't on my ignore list here and they might not get back on it here...fresh start for all
me included
g
alcimedes
2004-05-17, 15:15
well chester, i'll post this again.
On a personal note to the guys (and gals):
This isn't about doing AI any kind of "damage".
All this is about is moving to a forum that has some respect for its members, and has a snowball's chance in hell of improving over the next few years. Of becoming something better than it is today.
A number of us felt that would never happen at AI.com, if you think that AI.org has a better future, please feel free to join. But this isn't about punishing the old AI, just hopefully moving to something better for the future.
Finally, this is not about whether or not your "loyal" to a web forum, group, revolution or anything else.
This isn't a military, this isn't a country, it's a web forum. We're not looking to create drama here. What we are looking to do is start up a forum that is for it's users, not for making a quick buck for a completely detached business group.
There will be a large group of members who won't post here. There will be another large group that will, and still others who post at both. There's no reason to be pricks to any of these groups.
Please be courteous to new members, old members, and visiting folks who stop by. Words like "betrayal, traitor", et. al. have no place in this move.
There's no reason to add more fuel to an already over-fueled fire.
not sure what else i can say.
crazychester
2004-05-17, 15:56
Well alcimedes, I'll post this again. It's you too. In the "If the clinic taught me anything" thread
we're hoping that the obnoxious ones will shape up.
if not? buh bye.
Who are the obnoxious ones? Whoever you and the elite want them to be, I guess.
Not sure what else I can say.
Well alcimedes, I'll post this again. It's you too. In the "If the clinic taught me anything" thread
Who are the obnoxious ones? Whoever you and the elite want them to be, I guess.
Not sure what else I can say.
I can't speak for the admins here, but I know that there are some posters that do nothing but troll and try and make the boards unenjoyable for everyone else. That should not be tolerated at all at any message board. There are some people that are new to the whole "online community" thing and need to learn proper and universal netiquette. Those people should and are being given every chance to show that they can improve their behavior. If people refuse to learn how to be part of the community shouldn't there be some recourse?
Again, speaking for myself, .org is not about being elite or club for some, but a community for all.
While I can't speak to the motivations and impressions of other TRC readers, I suspect that some of the lack of dissent and questioning was due to being a bit gobsmacked (surprised) that such a seemingly blatant mutiny was being discussed under the nose of .com.
It was somewhat surreal to see such "open" (quasi-public in that the TRC wasn't well known, but wasn't really hidden) revolt. Ding-Ding-Ding.
Yep, you spoke for me quite well - good job! :D
I figured that the time to give input would be when it was time to begin separation. I had also been around long enough to agree that the status quo was not really ideal, so I wouldn't have questioned the need for change, or even the break, but I think it could have happened in a much smoother fashion.
I'll continue to lurk and maybe occasionally post at dot-com, but I am really excited to see the development and growth of dot-org, am very optimistic about its future, and will make this my main online haunt.
Personally, I'd really like to see the thread in which Brad/LoCash told Kasper that some of the admins/mods were actively thinking about leaving and/or starting something new if cooperation and communication didn't improve. No attacks and no blaming but an actual (urgent) attempt to save the situation. It seems to me that this should have taken place well before the clinic thread.
I'd also like to know more about the mole and its motives. Maybe he/she was trying to do exactly what I've described above? I don't know but I just feel that not the whole story is being told here.
I generally don't like people who make money while others work for them for free and don't even receive the respect they deserve. However, I really don't know Kasper and the evidence presented so far just doesn't fully convince me that he is a "bad" person. It seems to me that both parties didn't try hard enough to understand each other's position. Could be totally wrong though.
crazychester
2004-05-17, 17:24
make your own choice.
I am attempting to make my own choice. One of the key things I'm trying to decide in making that choice is whether this place is being run by a group of Invisibles as well as the Visibles. By Invisibles I mean a group of whoevers who are neither mods or admins but are having a say behind the scenes. It won't be the whole TRC crowd, just a very select few. And the communication won't be public or semi-public anymore.
I'm not saying that's definitely what's happening. But in terms of how this has played out it seems to me it could be a distinct possibility. If it is the case, I already know I don't want anything to do with this place. AFAIC, they would have become what they profess to despise. If it is the case, I don't expect to be told but I've been bashing away at this to see if they could come close to convincing me of the null hypothesis ie. that there are no Invisibles. They haven't.
So at this juncture I guess I have to decide if I'm comfortable visiting a place which may be being manipulated by an unknown few.
alcimedes
2004-05-17, 17:27
well, a perfect example would be Mika.
he's been banned, rebanned, banned again. but he keeps coming back. i'm hoping that with more control over the forums, people like Mika won't be a problem.
i think you're seeing a lot more in this than actually happened or is happening.
as for "who's running things", it's the suggestions forum. want to make some changes? go there and make some posts. we're open to all suggestions, and will be more than happy to hash things out with everyone and anyone publicly.
invisable overlords were a much bigger problem at .com.
unless you've had a lot of communication with gorgonzola and company.
thegelding
2004-05-17, 17:40
the admins with have lots of say....the mods (when they are needed and picked from the masses) will have a little less say...the masses will have a little less than the mods....but i see everyone having a voice and being listened to...
there is nobody above the admins at .org....so they are running the show
at .com the admins ran the forums, but ai.com was owned by kasper...he ran the show, but wasn't very involved in the forums
there was a clash of ideas and style and goals....
ai.com was owned by a person who wanted to make money on ai...nothing wrong with that...he ran the front page and had others run the forums because he knew that forums brings in the people that the advertizers want...but the purpose of the forums was to get hits on the front page and the ad banners...
at ai.org there are no ad banners and advertisements and nobody cares how many times the front page is hit...it is just a forum...clean and simple
come here to ask advice, to ask about problems, to visit
anything, anytime you want
peace
g
thegelding
2004-05-17, 18:06
oh, and cc...
i was just over at ai.com...
kasper is posting more, asking for suggestions, showing some personality and now jambo is flirting with him....
so this split could really be a benefit to both sites...maybe a shake up was needed...maybe we will see alot of action and vitality because of all this...
that would be nice
g
alcimedes
2004-05-17, 18:12
yeah, i think kasper's posted more in the open forums in the last two days than he has in the last two years. :D
DMBand0026
2004-05-17, 18:12
That's what I was hoping for. But we'll see what happens. Kasper has a lot of work to do before he can earn my respect back though.
thuh Freak
2004-05-17, 21:27
i noticed he was around too. so i pm'd him, asking about some of the recent censorship. i expected a response along the lines of "i was really pissed off about the whole situation, and probably didn't need to delete and censor all that stuff." actually, i wasn't expecting a response at all. but i did get one; he hardlined me with something more like, "do not talk about the 'revolution' at all until the several legal matters are finished." his view of the law seem fallacious at best, though i'm no lawdog.
CosmoNut
2004-05-17, 23:14
Let's address the whole thing of this question of who and how many would be "in" on the whole formerly-potential move to .org:
If you do a search on AI.com for those who have posted over, say 10 times, the number shrinks dramatically from the number for ALL registered users. Then, if you also consider those who have posted in the last year, you get down to a number of about 200....maybe. 200 from several thousand. That's just how the numbers work.
drewprops
2004-05-17, 23:35
I'm a little surprised at the people who are upset that they weren't told about TRC; that there was an easter egg forum, a "floating crap game". Just like in real life there are little unplanned parties that spin up out of nowhere and there isn't time or opportunity to call all your friends and invite them down to the bar.
Perhaps the fact that mutiny was fomenting belowdecks rankles some folks at a base, ideological level. I knew about TRC but I'd stopped dropping in and have no recollection of the revolution thread. Doesn't hurt my feelings at all...there are a lot of things that got done at AI without them running it past me first. I'm a "big" boy ;) and I can handle not being at the center of the whirlwind.
I've been a member at AI for a long, long time and this is but one footnote in the forum's history... this too shall pass. In a year a lot of us won't be able to accurately recall the facts and in a few more years we'll be doing 'remember when?' threads.
The funniest thing is that I occasionally would post a thread about the Great Blackout and Bad Flamingo forums, just to check with everyone about where they planned to go if anything ever happened to AI again. The resilience of the AI community is impressive and I've got to say that you've just seen them at their very worst.
You're also seeing a lot of the VERY core members here, mixed in with a lot of relatively new members who, like you, were swept into the maelstrom of community versus business.
I'm not giving up my membership at .com willingly, but I intend to support .org as a member as much as I can because I suspect that its goodness will far outstrip the nastiness of the May Tea Party.
Regarding the banning/rejection of some members: this should be interesting. Back when we were a smaller community we had the occasional n00b who would annoy us to distraction (anybody remember the TrUtH TRaiN? Gah!). If some of the trollish new members from .com follow the herd over to .org then they are likely to encounter much more scrutiny and be taken to school over internet etiquette...this ain't Fark.
Sorry this went longer than anticipated...I hate typing on my iBook's keyboard!
thegelding
2004-05-18, 01:00
carol, do you feel any better about all this, or still sad and PMSy??
don't mean that in a bad way...i have two teenage daughters, two female dogs and a wife...i walk on freakin eggshells at home
g
DMBand0026
2004-05-18, 02:16
I am attempting to make my own choice. One of the key things I'm trying to decide in making that choice is whether this place is being run by a group of Invisibles as well as the Visibles. By Invisibles I mean a group of whoevers who are neither mods or admins but are having a say behind the scenes. It won't be the whole TRC crowd, just a very select few. And the communication won't be public or semi-public anymore.
I'm not saying that's definitely what's happening. But in terms of how this has played out it seems to me it could be a distinct possibility. If it is the case, I already know I don't want anything to do with this place. AFAIC, they would have become what they profess to despise. If it is the case, I don't expect to be told but I've been bashing away at this to see if they could come close to convincing me of the null hypothesis ie. that there are no Invisibles. They haven't.
So at this juncture I guess I have to decide if I'm comfortable visiting a place which may be being manipulated by an unknown few.
You just don't get it, do you? This is an internet message board. There is a hierarchy, always has been, always will be. There are newbies, regular users, lurkers, the "old guard", mods, admins...the list goes on. We all know it, we all know how it works. But apparently you missed that part in Internet etiquette 101. Get used to it. The old guard and the regulars will have more say in things than the newbies, lurkers, and infrequent users..
As far as you being manipulated by people...get a life. No one is manipulating you. You just must have missed the thread in the TRC..."No one tell Chester what's going on" We had it in for you from day one. :rolleyes:
Some users will always have more say in things, does that make them elite? Heck no, it just makes them more influential. But you have to work to get to that point. You don't just show up on a big message board one day and command respect (read: Quagmire...sorry dude, I had to do it, perfect example.) You earn respect, you get to know the other members, you carve out your own niche. Talk to LoCash, talk to Brad, talk to the people who really get things done around here. That's how these things work. But like I said, you can't come in here and talk to them on your first day and expect them to listen to everything, you have to move up in the hierarchy.
It may sound stupid, but forgive me if this is harsh, so do you.
thegelding
2004-05-18, 08:46
and always be yourself...good or bad, that is what we need as a community...don't try being a character or play a role...that can trip you up...be yourself, let us see who you are, what you think, what you know and let us see you grow...
fellowship is a great example of this....
people here know way too much about myself, but that's ok
don't be afraid to show parts of yourself, it makes us all stronger to see people as they really are...
g
pscates2.0
2004-05-18, 09:11
Chester...it's an online forum. Why all the handwringing and drama, and worrying about "the man behind the curtain"? :confused:
You're making this all sound like some major life decision, when it's anything but. Relax. Post, or don't post. Post here, and post there. Or don't. No one really thinks about it or cares. Just an online community. You can lean against the wall and stare at your shoes or you can be in the middle of the dance floor, spinning on your head for all to see. And all points in between.
You're overthinking the entire damn thing, it sounds like. When did such a thing become so important? You're not having to lay out money for a membership or sign a long-term posting contract, so relax already...it's just a message board. No one's ever been killed by one (and don't go Googling to try and prove me wrong).
:)
^ nice post 'scates :)
... you paint quite a vivid picture, but it is sound advice. (I might take it myself and try a few headspin moves in the weeks to come - for now, though, I'm comfortable just grooving along)
drewprops
2004-05-18, 11:08
I'd like to see CrazyChester dancing...(I hear she can do the Lambada)
DMBand0026
2004-05-18, 12:25
I'd like to see CrazyChester dancing...(I hear she can do the Lambada)
And that's why she's called CRAZYchester ;)
Just lay off the booze before you do it. Murbot has been hurt one too many times doing that. We had to hire a full time AI medic, and that don't come cheap. :)
My privileges to reply to topics and create new threads on .com are gone, and I didn't even do anything that I know of. I edited my sig now, it will let me do that, but I can't post at all. Does anybody know how many people they are doing this to? And why? My previous signature was something about the clinically elite, but it had been that for a long time, I wonder if that did it. Why not just censor it like they did DMB's sig? The last post I made was this (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=617926#post617926)
alcimedes
2004-05-18, 14:51
yeah, stuff's a bit weird still at .com
i'd at least think they'd have the deceny to pm you and ask you to change it.
of course, it could also be the .org in your profile. :)
My sig is the same as it's always been there, except for the bold 'o' 'r' and 'g'. The .org in my profile over and over I did after I found I could no longer post there.
DMBand0026
2004-05-18, 15:32
You can update profiles again at .com
Mine now reads:
Viva La Revolution
Censorship will be the death of us all
I think it gets the point across.
I'm cruising for a ban right now, not looking for one, but I'm pretty sure I'll get it.
thuh Freak
2004-05-18, 16:10
i dont really want to post there anymore. it feels like a hostile environment. but i changed my sig, ever so slightly, so that it links to the our home page superfluously.
thegelding
2004-05-18, 16:16
things will settle down, enjoy our time here, hope for the best there...
remember, lots of friends are there...i wish nothing but good things to powerdoc, amorph, fellows and all the others
g
Well, Kasper is sending me a C&D letter before week's end. I guess I'll have to check my mail for that one. Apparently he's going to challenge my use of the name. The longer Kasper decides to to stay on the cross, the messier it will get. He should really come down, the .com forums could use the wood to rebuild the mess he's made :rolleyes:
I just asked if they are going to post an explanation, or an "official statement".
The reply was:
I promised one, and I will give one. The situation, however is NOT resolved and there is an ongoing investigated in several areas and I cannot and will not allow people to speculate in the meantime.
Please respect these simple wishes, and you will have all your questions answered in due time.
Just in case you wanted to know, or are you using a proxy to lurk?
Nah, I don't use a proxy to get over there. Someone there already keeps me updated. I'm scared to go back, actually... don't know if I could stomach everything Kasper is doing to the place.
Anyhow, what he is investigating is how to have a chance in hell of a case against me. In order for him to make a successful case against me, he needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that...
1) I did anything malicious while at appleinsider.com. The only events he has referenced is my using the vBulletin admin scripts to create a publicly accessible backup of the forums. Doing that didn't break anything, and even if it did, it wasn't in violation of any laws because I had been granted that access. If they didn't want certain parts of the Admin panel being accessed, they should keep a better watch on their server.
2) If he wants to shut down the appleinsider.org and appleinsider.net domains, he's going to have to be able to prove so under the Uniform Domain Name Dispute Policy (http://www.intuitiveengineering.com/dispute.html). Since appleinsider.org, within its control, has not attempted to do anything malicious to appleinsider.com, nor does appleinsider.org make any commercial profits, he is not going to be able to prove that one. If these domain names were as important to him when they became available for registration, he should have registered them.
3) Again, since appleinsider.org is not a commercial venture, and we are not attempting whatsoever to "trick" or "scam" members from appleinsider.com, and we are not using their same logo (which I believe Brad created and retains copyright on), Kasper and appleinsider.com really have no case for me to change the title or logo of this site.
If he wants me to take action on any of his concerns, he's going to have to get a subpoena to do so. All I want is to live happily over here. :rolleyes:
<snip> and we are not using their same logo (which I believe Brad created and retains copyright on), Kasper and appleinsider.com really have no case for me to change the title or logo of this site. <snip>The logo on the top left at AI.com was created by Jonathan. Just to let you know. :)
I stand corrected then. Looks like Jonathan did do something when he wasn't complaining about not getting laid... :cool:
Gargoyle
2004-05-18, 18:05
Urrrm, if AI.com was such an important commercial venture to kasper & MacNN then why didn't they stop the posts people put up about adding the advertising servers names to the hosts file along with a 0.0.0.0 IP address?
I was beginning to think that AI.com was ad free. :cool:
I wondered about that myself, but it got rid of the ads for me so I didn't really care too much.
crazychester
2004-05-18, 21:25
If you're going to read this post at all, please read the whole thing and carefully.
I wasn't going to post again in this thread after my last reply. One, because I feel like I'm being a thread hog. Two, because I'm in the catch-22 situation now of the more I say the more I'm going to be accused of taking this personally, blowing it out of proportion, feeling left out, whatever. But mostly, because the point had been reached where no further information was forthcoming and all there was for it was to sit back and watch until it finished playing itself out.
I can't remember when I first started lurking at AI but it must have been before the blackout because I remember rediscovering the place. I first started reading because I was preparing to make the leap from the old OS to OS X and I wanted to learn about it. I didn't register until June last year partly because I felt out of my league but mostly because I was happy just reading and I still read far more than I post. In the end, I registered because traffic was so heavy pre G5 release that was the only way to get access to the site. I still kinda regret not registering in that week before the LCD iMac's release when Apple was playing silly buggers with everybody. But it was great fun watching everybody go apeshit anyway.
DMBand I think you're pissed off with me because I backhanded you in the locked Suggestions thread the other day. But you were behaving badly (and still are occasionally). I'm going to be completely frank here. You're actually the type I'm currently concerned about. I used to think you were a nice guy. Very inoffensive. Then, about 6 - 8 weeks ago I guess, I started noticing that you were being really smart arsey to a lot of people (not me). Now I think I have an inkling of why.
I accepted the hierarchy long before I registered, and saw it and still see it as a good thing. There are some old timers who I think are just plain jerks. But generally my feeling is that they should be deferred to. The truth is, one of my key concerns is actually the missing members of the old guard and whether this will be able to become a place I enjoy hanging out without them. One of the things that's continued to bother me is the lines along which the admins/mods seem to have split. Something that occurred to me fairly early on was that, as I perceive it, the charge has been led by those I'll call the "firebrands" - specifically, Brad, LoCash and murbot. Brad while nearly always polite can be a bit harsh with people if he wants and, of course, LoCash and murbot can be positively withering when they so choose. I stress, none of them have ever upset me but I have been pissed with them on occasion for the way they've talked to others just because while I knew they didn't really mean any harm, I wasn't sure that was how the person on the receiving end felt.
And mostly when I get pissed off with any of you, it's because I'm concerned with the way you may have made somebody else feel. I feel like I've had a pretty easy run and don't feel victimized in any way. I wouldn't have expected to be unwanted here to be honest though nor would I have expected anyone to come looking for me. I think I'm in the pretty insignificant category and that's where I want to be.
Back to the split. A while back alcimedes said something in a thread I was involved in that produced this image of him in my head as a big, lumbering, somewhat clumsy Old English Sheep Dog (OESD). I have been unable to shake this so that's what alcimedes is to me. (See how you can never assume what people might think?) So firebrands and OESD here but back at .com are who I think of as all the level heads. Those who are slow to anger and nearly always very measured and mature in their responses. While several of them said what they knew and had done (or not done) in the locked thread, except for I think Powerdoc and Fellowship, others who have registered here have said nothing. Obviously, this may be because they can't - at least at present. Powerdoc didn't explain why he's chosen a different path.
It's precisely because, first and foremost, I do defer to the admins/mods that I'm missing hearing where they're at.
pscates I know it seems like I'm blowing this out of proportion but trust me I do have it under control in my head. And people can see the same thing very differently. I have the same feeling towards what a lot of you are upset about - it's just a frickin' internet forum, what's the big deal. Kasper deleting the "Suggestions" thread was just water off the duck's back to me. It didn't surprise me so it was just like ho hum. And I just thought "oh well I'll just go over to .org to discuss this" because I figured you couldn't afford to shut me up without putting yourselves in the same category as Kasper.
Likewise the bannings, censorship and legal threats, I just see as the expected normal reaction to an abnormal situation - right or wrong. I'm still flummoxed as to whether Brad and LoCash are just plain naive for not contemplating the repercussions of the TRC thread being discovered or whether they were being too clever by half. It's because I think they are pretty damn smart that I continue to wonder whether they were being clever dicks.
Re: the unwanted members. I've tried hard to think of anyone who pisses me off so much I'd like to see them gone and have been unable to. When I first discovered the purpose of the Ignore List my immediate reaction was "oh that's for pussies" and that's pretty much how it's remained. I have no one on an ignore list. Back when I was a lurker there was someone who pissed me off and posted so much I just stopped going to AI for a while. Occasionally someone is so irritating I'll avoid their threads but mostly I try to be tolerant of all. I remember reading a comment by a PC guy reviewing OS X where he said he'd cruised the Mac web and was impressed by how Mac users were quietly proud of their little platform and a very polite and dignified lot on the whole. Maybe it's dumb but that made me feel proud.
I have always felt AI to be a leader in this regard. Don't you understand? That's why you were chosen (by me).
Carol used to really bug me. I really didn't like her. But I kept reading her posts and now I'm at the point where I really dig her and I'm missing her. Things change, people change. I PM'd her after seeing her posts here but haven't had a reply and that concerns me. I probably roll with the punches a bit more easily than she does. Let me make one thing very clear. If she shows up and anybody starts saying stuff to her like DMBand said to me I will come out kicking heads and being hellishly disruptive and damn the consequences.
And aside from justifying myself, that's why I've written all this. Because I think AI is greater than the sum of it's individual parts. I think Carol registered about the same time as me but I see her as a very important member. And there are many others who have registered here but said little or nothing and others who have not come here who aren't part of the old guard or TRC or whatever but who I think are important. I have to wonder how many there might be who feel slighted or abandoned or confused or whatever but aren't able to come out and say it. I used to love hearing you guys tell stories about the olden days but it can get a little hackneyed and tedious and I suspect for some it's a bit alienating. And I'm already feeling that way about all the back slapping and "I was part of the TRC" talk and other bravado. Remember, I'm a 42 year old woman. I just don't get off on that stuff. While I may in the future if I hang around at either place explain what the great AI split was to newbies who ask about it, I don't feel any more or less special for witnessing it. It's just another thing I've experienced in my life and definitely not the most colourful or interesting.
How important is the member who hardly ever posts or even a newbie who knows the answer to some question nobody else knows? Or the member who registers but never, ever posts but still feels part of the community? To me they're important and I have no idea what the impact of losing them will be. But it seems to me there are certain risks involved in this venture for both sites because of the potential loss of control that could see the community morph into something nobody much likes.
And I don't have a problem with future secret forums. I doubt I'd participate because from what I've heard it falls into the category of "boy's stuff", and as I said at the beginning of this thread I think it's probably a good thing for you to have place where you can let it all hang out. I still think the way the TRC was used in regard to this matter was dumb. But please don't do me the disservice of thinking I'm pissed off about not being part of the gang or of thinking I can be pigeonholed as easily as some of you seem to think.
Anyway, sorry for going on for so long. I think I'm all talked out now.
Akumulator
2004-05-18, 21:40
I was very tempted to quote the entire thing and only add a smilie.... but, no... I won't. :)
Nice post. You need a blog. ;)
thegelding
2004-05-18, 21:42
cc, a great and thoughtful reply...
one reason we would love to have you here
and also why we are fine if you go to both
anyways, 2 things
1...hey, i'm a 42 year old guy...yeah 1961 was a bitching year to be born
2...murbot, and i don't usually speak for him cuz he is so good at that by himself, wasn't really a part of the break...he didn't really think that the split would come, when it did, he wasn't sure which way he would go...once he got "admin" below his username i guess it sort of cut of his chance of going back to .com
again, your post was a wonderful read...thank you
and i'll help protect carol too...though i think she can fight well for herself
g
crazychester
2004-05-18, 22:08
Thanks guys.
Yeah I knew murbot wasn't part of the charge and thought about making that clear before I submitted that post but it had already been too much hard work. But I should clarify I don't want Brad, LoCash or murbot to think the word firebrand equates to me thinking they didn't do their job well. We're all capable of not always choosing our words carefully enough.
And Brad and LoCash, I don't mean to paint you as a pair of conniving bastards. I just consider all sides of the equation and even if you did hope for this outcome from the TRC thread that doesn't necessarily mean your intentions weren't noble but just that you maybe didn't choose the best strategy.
Yes g I recall you saying once you were a 61er. A very fine year indeed (if I do say so myself :) )
billybobsky
2004-05-18, 22:20
cc, nice post...
i think your concerns are justified, and i honestly agree with everything you wrote (except perhaps the parts about carol... then again i am not generally bugged by people except if they are physically present all the f-ing time and even then only in certain very extreme cases...)...
DMBand0026
2004-05-19, 00:27
Okay. You want to know why I said the things I said? Because I felt (and still feel like) you are overreacting to a situation that hardly warrants it. I understand that you were upset about the TRC being there, and apparently equally upset that you weren't a part of it. Big deal. If it's the worst thing that happens to you all day, you're one lucky girl. What I said was somewhat malicious, but I won't take it back, because your attitude towards us (those who took part in the TRC discussion) was equally as malicious.
I can see that you've calmed down enough now to finally start making jabs at my character. Awesome. I respect your right to not like me based on good pretenses, but I see few here. Now, I understand that this won't change the fact that you no longer like me, I just felt it had to be said. And the fact that you think I was "smart arsey" to people just because I thought I was "elite" is total crap. I was never a jerk to anyone who didn't deserve it. I like to make jokes, I like to make people laugh. I can only assume that my jokes came off as "jerky" or "smart arsey" to you. I hope that I made others laugh though.
I hesitate to apologize for any of my words that may have offended you. Perhaps you take things to seriously (the most likely of the scenarios here), or maybe I need to tone it down a bit. But I doubt that's it, because you are the first to ever find me "smart arsey" and not laugh at it. Either way, something is out of whack here for you to be so upset about something like this. I don't think I will apologize for anything, cause if I apologized every time I offended someone, every other post would be me on my virtual knees begging for forgiveness.
I hate to toot my own horn, but I feel as though I'm somewhat of a rarity in the world today in that, if I feel it needs to be said, I'll say it. If I step on someone's toes, sucks for them. I'll say what I need to. Screw being PC, screw looking out for people's toes. I can't stand the people who compromise their own morals and values just to be PC. Now I'm off on a tangent here, but I guess it's somewhat relevant.
The long and short of it is, I'm not sorry for what I said, but I hope that we can be civil toward each other, I would hate to have an enemy here on AI. Whether you stick around or not, up to you. I don't want to see anyone go, but I think some people need to really take a step back and realize that this is just an internet message board. Life is too short to get upset by things here. And you'll live longer if you don't take life so seriously.
Respectfully,
DMB
alcimedes
2004-05-19, 00:29
http://www.internationalkennel.com/old%20english%20sheepdog%20dob%20077.jpg
WOOF!
:D
I think it needs to be said that while there certainly was a hierarchy at AI.com (now there is just a despot) there probably wasn't ANY correlation between being a TRC poster and your position in the heirarchy.
Like you said crazychester, it was "boy's stuff."
The split, inevitable or not, at least temporarily reduces the quality of AppleInsider(s). However while myself and most people seem to just accept the event, I am at as much a loss as you as to why it troubles you and not others.
Barto
God, I wish we had more women in their 40s posting here (at least if they were as articulate and reasonable as CC).
As a guy in his 40s who straddles the art and tech worlds, I'm often struck by the tendency of the technical, particularly computer, cognoscenti to exhibit a certain triumphalism. Andy why not? For the most part they're young men with the future of the world by the tail, certain of their intelligence and judgment.
Which is not to say that we don't have very many very fine members who show a fullness of character with every post ;), but one of the things that attracted me to AI in the first place was the breadth of its membership-- as opposed to say, ars technica, where electrical engineering is destiny.
Which is all just to say I love reading CCs posts not just because I think they're good, but because they're coming from a different sort of head than a lot of what gets posted here.
I know "diversity" is a word leeched of most of its meaning, but for a discussion board such as this, which could so easily geek out entirely, I see it as an enormous asset.
Thank you, crazychester for being so open with us. It's good to have you here.
:)
Windswept
2004-05-20, 20:01
carol, do you feel any better about all this, or still sad and PMSy??
don't mean that in a bad way...i have two teenage daughters, two female dogs and a wife...i walk on freakin eggshells at home
g
Hi gelding :)
Eggshells, huh? haha You poor thing. ;)
I'm okay now. Pretty much back to my normal self, I guess. What a plague it all is. Geez. :rolleyes:
Thanks for your concern. I can tell you are a real sweetie. :)
Windswept
2004-05-20, 20:24
http://www.internationalkennel.com/old%20english%20sheepdog%20dob%20077.jpg
WOOF!
:D
Damn, Alcimedes. How 'ever' do you find your way around? :D
(Looks like *you're* a softie, too, huh? ;) )
crazychester - that was an excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to think about it and express it in the manner that you did!
After a week of being here (exclusively) I have decided that I will keep posting at both incarnations of AI. I miss the humility of the old community - but I also realise that over at AI.com I will never be able to read posts about the split such as cc's. Hopefully, though there will still be posts of this calibre at AI.com, b/c I enjoy reading a post that forces me to reflect and evaluate my own standing. Posts such as cc's display a depper level of thinking than the quick witted/"burn" retort that many of us are capable of. I only wish for more of them.
Anyway, I can't afford to post a long rumination such as crazy's presently - and frankly I am kind of a "keep the cards to the chest" type of person, especially in an open forum such as an online community. However, crazychester, I did appreciate your post and wanted to thank you for sharing it with us.
...[snip]... As a guy in his 40s who straddles the art and tech worlds, I'm often struck by the tendency of the technical, particularly computer, cognoscenti to exhibit a certain triumphalism. Andy why not? For the most part they're young men with the future of the world by the tail, certain of their intelligence and judgment. :nods head: eloquently expressed
Which is not to say that we don't have very many very fine members who show a fullness of character with every post ;), but one of the things that attracted me to AI in the first place was the breadth of its membership-- as opposed to say, ars technica, where electrical engineering is destiny.
Which is all just to say I love reading CCs posts not just because I think they're good, but because they're coming from a different sort of head than a lot of what gets posted here.
I know "diversity" is a word leeched of most of its meaning, but for a discussion board such as this, which could so easily geek out entirely, I see it as an enormous asset. Another great post - that's part of the reason that drew me to AI in the first place - and now makes me realise that I still need to frequent and be part of the "original" community as well.
...[snip]... DMBand I think you're pissed off with me because I backhanded you in the locked Suggestions thread the other day. ...[snip]...
Can we get a link for this please? (I can't seem to find it.)
I'd like to make a reply to DMB's post - but first I want to find out how it went down in the first place.
VOX BARBARA
2004-05-21, 10:00
Thank you crazychester for honesty, dignity and yes personality . That is why i feel close to AI.
Well, i prepared a big answer, found no time to finish, so here you are: stay
pscates2.0
2004-05-21, 10:04
Is there a connection between the excessive gushing and "me too-ism" over the last page-and-a-half and cc's being a, well, female?
:D
You guys lay it on thick sometimes, don't you?
;)
I like chester most of the time too, but come on now...
You wouldn't say all this about fellowship, 709 or murbot (well, he wouldn't deserve it, but you know what I'm talking about)...
:p
thegelding
2004-05-21, 10:08
i don't believe anybody on these forums is a woman till i meet them in person, and even then i have my doubts
g
That's right g... you putz! ;)
VOX BARBARA
2004-05-21, 10:33
You guys lay it on thick sometimes, don't you?
:p
yeah i like drama.
I like chester most of the time too, but come on now...
You wouldn't say all this about fellowship, 709 or murbot (well, he wouldn't deserve it, but you know what I'm talking about)...
no i don't;)
DMBand0026
2004-05-21, 12:29
Can we get a link for this please? (I can't seem to find it.)
I'd like to make a reply to DMB's post - but first I want to find out how it went down in the first place.
Quite honestly, I really don't recall ever being "backhanded" by anyone in the suggestions forum (I'm assuming she is referring to .com). I'm interested in seeing this now too.
It's possible that Kasper in his vein attempts to censor everything over there has moved the aforementioned thread to the mod forum. So we may never really know. Chester, if you remember what was said, I'm interested in hearing it too.
crazychester
2004-05-21, 15:49
Is there a connection between the excessive gushing and "me too-ism" over the last page-and-a-half and cc's being a, well, female?
So you think they were just patronizing me? Jeez, I never even thought of that. Personally, I don't think they're that shallow. I'm inclined to think you're selling your fellow members a bit short there.
Or does the smilie mean it was all a joke? In which case one might be inclined to conclude that you never say what you really think.
VOX BARBARA at the moment I'm just passing through trying to decide if this is a Gruselkarbinett or not (hope I remembered how to spell it correctly).
Mac+ the thing between DMBand and myself went down in the deleted thread. Given you can't read it for yourself, I don't think it's appropriate for me to give my version. Besides, it's water under the bridge. But thanks. Glad to here you'll continue to post at both - there are already too many people talking about burning their bridges entirely.
Aside: Jeez lots of bridge metaphors there. Still, a bridge or two wouldn't go astray right now.
Gruselkabinett :)
Water under the bridge, yep, that's it. I was searching for that metaphor the other day. Found it now!
:)
VOX BARBARA
2004-05-21, 16:40
Gruselkabinett :)
Water under the bridge, yep, that's it. I was searching for that metaphor the other day. Found it now!
:)
Indeed, LOLOLOLLLL:OOOOLOLOLOLO (is there a pic for hysterical laughing, though?)
Not yet, but there's this pic that suits this situation fine: :confused:
Windswept
2004-05-21, 20:47
i don't believe anybody on these forums is a woman till i meet them in person, and even then i have my doubts
g
hahaha.
You are so funny, gelding. :)
With all those females at home, you should be able to detect 'estrogen vibes' (in a messageboard post) a mile away. ;)
Thanks to you and cc for offering me a protective shoulder to lean on. I *can* be emotionally fragile sometimes. Certainly NOT a good way to be on internet forums. My sensitivities are pretty much 100% hormone-induced, however; though *knowing* that doesn't seem to help much. Sigh. :(
thegelding
2004-05-21, 20:57
ha, carol i doubt you need my protecting...that said, i will always have your back (and it is a lot safer with me having your back than murbot)...
if the boys on the site are driving you nucking futs, you can do two things:
one: remember that they are just boys (many barely older than your students)...so don't show any fear
two: give me a shout out and i will bring a can of internet whoop ass...
g
school out?? my daughters last day was today...both girls got straight a's again...luckily they got my brains but my wife's looks and her drive...me, i was a slacker before slacking was cool
Windswept
2004-05-21, 21:54
ha, carol i doubt you need my protecting...that said, i will always have your back (and it is a lot safer with me having your back than murbot)...
:D haha Yeah, I think you might be right about that. ;)
if the boys on the site are driving you nucking futs, you can do two things:
one: remember that they are just boys (many barely older than your students)...so don't show any fear
two: give me a shout out and i will bring a can of internet whoop ass...
I *love* hanging out with the guys. They're so much more straightforward than most females; though I do hate it when they're mean to me. Of course, in those cases, the odds are good that I have done/said something to deserve the abuse. So now I'm trying to be much more circumspect in the things I say, as a pre-emptive defense mechanism. :p heh I notice that I do always seem to have to learn the hard way. :rolleyes:
school out?? my daughters last day was today...both girls got straight a's again...luckily they got my brains but my wife's looks and her drive...me, i was a slacker before slacking was cool
We have one more week, and then.....SUMMER. YAYYYYYY!!!!! And guess what? I finally decided to take a year's leave. I am SO excited. I feel like jumping up and down, singing, shouting, laughing uproariously, dancing in the streets. I have saved for a few years to be able to do this. I want to give writing a serious try, instead of trying to fit it in in my spare time. Did I mention that I feel like shouting from the rooftops. :D YEOWIE!!!
Your daughters sound terrific - cute *and* smart. Your wife sounds pretty great too. :)
thegelding
2004-05-21, 22:00
Your daughters sound terrific - cute *and* smart. Your wife sounds pretty great too. :)
i have said it before, i will say it again....
i am an extremely lucky man
if i say any more i might start crying, so that's it for me on the subject
g
good luck with the book and have a wonderful year off
billybobsky
2004-05-21, 22:06
yay thegelding!... don't worry man, we all cry, we all cry...
billybobsky
2004-05-21, 22:12
yeah carol enjoy the year off and for all of us here, don't put off writing until 'later'... ;)
pscates2.0
2004-05-22, 01:40
So you think they were just patronizing me? Jeez, I never even thought of that. Personally, I don't think they're that shallow. I'm inclined to think you're selling your fellow members a bit short there.
I'm inclined to think that you read nearly everything wrong, and could stand to lighten up just a smidge before you explode or something. :o
Or does the smilie mean it was all a joke?
Ding, ding, ding...we have a winner, folks! Step right up and claim your prize, young lady. Those smileys DO exist for a reason, you know.
In which case one might be inclined to conclude that you never say what you really think.
Uh, ask around...you'll find that's hardly the case. ;)
You don't know me very well...
:D
VOX BARBARA
2004-05-22, 05:34
http://www.parafilm.de/img/sug.jpg
pscates2.0
2004-05-22, 08:45
Yes, indeed.
If you have suggestions for the user interface of the site, please post them in the Suggestions forum. They will be noticed sooner and acted upon quicker if they are posted in the proper forum.
'scates - not laying it on thick... for the first part of her post I actually envisaged some testosterone driven male going crazy and beating his chest ;) ... of course, that imaged disappeared in a puff of smoke after I read the line "for a 42 year old female".
Anyway, I had been reading this thread and thought to myself, "Cool, somebody has finally taken the time to reflect on the goings-on and have a rant of a somewhat cathartic nature." In some ways, I guess I lived vicariously through it. I know for a fact that it was a lot more confrontational and direct than most of what I write - as I said, I tend to "keep them close to my chest".
Anyways, I'm all up for applauding folks that have the balls (well, not quite in cc's case - but you know what I mean) to submit honest and well thought out posts. This calibre of exchange amongst us needs to be encouraged! :)
Windswept
2004-05-23, 04:49
yeah carol enjoy the year off and for all of us here, don't put off writing until 'later'... ;)
Thanks! I won't. :)
VOX BARBARA
2004-05-23, 09:34
If you have suggestions for the user interface of the site, please post them in the Suggestions forum. They will be noticed sooner and acted upon quicker if they are posted in the proper forum.
i just wasn't aware, sorry, both forums seemed kinda competitive, but that is going to change as i see;)
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