Evacuations gone bad and other Katrina Blame Games

[pscates2.0]

You know, I have to say that I'm really not a fan of - and am getting quite fed up with - these idiot, jackass reporters out there. It smacks of grandstanding and lunging for some stupid "journalism" award.

:rolleyes:

Seems every year, they get more rash and foolhardy with their "on the scene" coverage. I'm watching this one dipshit on the Weather Channel right now, standing out among trees, power lines and signage blowing REALLY hard. I mean, a stop sign or tin signage on a building could come off and swoop by and decapitate this numbnut.

I have a feeling that we're going to see something like that, at some point.

Here's the deal: all these hurricanes look alike. You can't show the footage from one from a decade ago and tell any damn difference between Dennis or any other that might be happening currently.

So I question their contributions in the name of "journalism". I mean, you've seen one wildly swaying palm tree or traffic light, you've pretty much seen them all, right?

So what are these people REALLY doing out there?

I think it's foolish. And I think it diminishes the perception of danger, and truly does a disservice to the public. People watch these goons on TV and think "hell, it ain't that bad...", then THEY feel compelled to go outside and/or ignore evacuation orders. Can you blame them?

Am I alone on this, all this "hurricane jacking-off" behavior by these on-the-scene reporters? It's such a Geraldo Rivera type of thing to be doing...making YOURSELF the story and trying to foster some image of rogue-ish journalistic bad-assness. Such a cliché.

:rolleyes:

Anderson Cooper from CNN is out standing below a gas station overhang that's precariously twisting and warping. The evil part of me kinda hopes that thing gives way. No, not enough to actually kill him, but perhaps to make him scream an expletive or shit his pants on live TV. Perhaps then he'd realize what a stupid position he (and all these others) have put themselves in, and the "journalistic community" might reevaluate their approach to these things, and how they cover them.

We all know what this stuff looks like, and we'll see PLENTY of live footage tomorrow of the aftermath. Why risk and endanger precious human life, standing out there with your network logo'd poncho and commenting on how you're "having a tough time standing up, and my eyes are stinging!!!"

Well no kidding, genius...you're in a hurricane. That's usually what happens: lots of wind and rain, and people aren't supposed to stand out in it, screwhead. Am I supposed to feel some sort of sympathy or compassion for you? Or admire your "dedication and courage"?

:rolleyes: :mad:

Only the arrogance of man let's people think they can go toe-to-toe with nature and not be touched. That's a really good way to get yourself fucked up.

And when one of these reporters finally DOES get seriously injured (or killed) on live TV, I'm going to have a hard time participating in any sort of heavy-handed "national mourning" over it. Larry King will manage to have two weeks worth of shows on the topic, but the fact is the idiot dead reporter shouldn't have been there to begin with.

This guy on the Weather Channel is truly a fool...if he makes it through the day, it'll be a miracle.

:err:

[Naderfan]

I've always had the same feeling about these TV idiots. There is absolutely NO reason for them to be out there. And yet, there they go. It is a miracle that no one had been killed yet, but those days have to be numbered. Oh well, in that business it's all about ratings. If they want to kill themselves for it, I can't stop them.

Morons.

[Ebby]

Geez. There are a lot of glass-half-empty guys around here.

http://www.hiflykites.co.za/free-kite-guides/kite-flying-manual/stunt-kite-flying.JPG :D

OK, maybe I'm just crazy, but I LOVE storms.

[elvia]

Yea the media is just making a story. Here it is, the storm is coming ashore at 45 mph or so, (gusts) and they are still making the story about it being a monster strom. They just try and make things worst to make themselves look better.
I live in New Orleans, so I do know what a Hurricane is and what they can do.
I resent the fact that places issue a mandatory evuacation, then they stay themselves, touting how dangerous it is. Bull Shit.

[atomicbartbeans]

I was watching CNN about an hour ago, and I could've sworn they were shaking the camera just for effect. The surrounding suburban landscape didn't look like it was shaking that badly. I can imagine the field reporter saying to the cameraman "psst.... shake the camera, it will make it look better".

[billybobsky]

Geez. There are a lot of glass-half-empty guys around here.

http://www.hiflykites.co.za/free-kite-guides/kite-flying-manual/stunt-kite-flying.JPG :D

OK, maybe I'm just crazy, but I LOVE storms.
I love 1 hr long thunderstorms.

A hurricane, even a glancing blow by one, is a 16 hour ordeal or wind rain, rain, rain rain, rain rain and rain... If you actually get hit by the hurricane, it is a 16 hour ordeal of wind rain, wind rain wind wind wind wind wind wind wind, flying cow, wind and rain... Like the Python Spam skit...

[BarracksSi]

Geez. There are a lot of glass-half-empty guys around here.

http://www.hiflykites.co.za/free-kite-guides/kite-flying-manual/stunt-kite-flying.JPG :D

OK, maybe I'm just crazy, but I LOVE storms.
Oh what-EVER, that ain't no high-wind kite. ;) Looks like an old North Shore (not quite small enough to be the North Shore Extreme). Where's the mesh? Where's the extra-heavy-duty carbon?

Dude, for 50+ MPH winds, get that 6' Flexifoil and use the stock fiberglass spar. That sucker's quick -- maybe you can break the 110 MPH Guinness world record for kite speed.

http://cobrakites.com/images/stkrpic2.jpg

[art jrk]

Oh what-EVER, that ain't no high-wind kite. ;) Looks like an old North Shore (not quite small enough to be the North Shore Extreme). Where's the mesh? Where's the extra-heavy-duty carbon?

Dude, for 50+ MPH winds, get that 6' Flexifoil and use the stock fiberglass spar. That sucker's quick -- maybe you can break the 110 MPH Guinness world record for kite speed.

http://cobrakites.com/images/stkrpic2.jpg
Side note:

I still have my Dean Jordan Hugo from many years back. The one he design especially to fly in hurricane winds. (sorry no picture) Not that we get them very often in the DC area.

So BarracksSi, where in the area do you fly?

[oldmacfan]

I think New Orleans has run out of luck and god willing they get the area cleared out.

[Kickaha]

Yeah, in a few hours it's going to have to be renamed The Big Breezy. :/

Here's hoping no one's quite stupid enough to stick around. (Oh what am I saying, of course some will...)

[Moogs]

NYT reporting a mandatory evacuation has been issued but there are long delays leaving on the major highways (big surprise there... two lanes out of the city basically).

And as if flooding / leveling most of the city will not be bad enough:

"The real issue - that I don't think the nation is paying attention to - is that through the city of New Orleans, through the Gulf of Mexico, we probably deal with almost a third of the nation's domestic oil that is produced. And that will most likely be shut down," Mr. Nagin said.

"So, this can have a significant impact on oil prices going forward," he added.

[billybobsky]

Anyone find it ironic that at least some of the overheating of the North Atlantic which increases the strengths of these storms can be blamed on burning of fossil fuels, and that the refineries and rigs are almost all in the path of major hurricanes?

[Kickaha]

No. :)

[billybobsky]

Hmm.. Funny that.

[Kickaha]

LA emergency mgmt spokesperson Lt. Kevin Cowan is saying that they are trying to prepare for 30-50 *THOUSAND* casualties. Worst case, you realize.

Unless the Superdome fails, in which case... oops.

News coming in that at least two people have been ejected from the Superdome for fighting, and that smoking is prohibited.

Umpteen thousand people, with a significant percentage having withdrawal fits?

Um, carnage, anyone? Oy.

[InactionMan]

30-50000 casualties??? Holy hell. I'm assuming the generators at the Superdome have plenty of juice. If not, that'll be an ugly scene when 20000 people find themselves in the dark with a death storm trying to rip the roof off an aging stadium.

[Kickaha]

The casualty count is a) worst case, and b) includes the deaths from disease, starvation, etc, as there is no clean water, massive mosquito breeding ground, decaying animals/plants/people, etc, etc.

Just in: now a Cat4. Barely.

Still 910mbar, still a *very* coherent eye.

[The Return of the 'nut]

this guy on FoxNews right now is a total dipshit

He's going to get hurt

[pscates2.0]

I was thinking, just last night, about the things Kickaha mentioned regarding the Super Dome and its current inhabitants.

:eek:

Thousands of scared people, they can't smoke or drink, you know 5% of the crowd (as in all large crowd situations, anywhere) is destined to be comprised of world class a-holes of some sort. AND I just heard that the thing is running on generator power...lights only, no AC.

So, let's recap: thousands of strangers "sleeping together", half undergoing nicotine withdrawal, everyone hot and sweating, everyone tense and scared and realizing that even if they survive this storm, they'll have nothing to go home to. And there will be idiots loudly talking on their cell phones at 3am, keeping everyone around them awake and pissed off.

And you're going to have mulletted white redneck tourists who've been drinking non-stop since last Thursday, bunking right next to charter members of the Tupac Shakur Appreciation Society who probably are going to have issues with the formers rebel flag-adorned T-shirts.

Yes, sounds like a recipe for peace, love and harmony.

:\

Forget Katrina...most casualty figures will probably come from Super Dome rioting and "Gangs of New York" type skirmishes.

:o

Talk about a tinderbox. I'd like to say I have more faith in my fellow man, in this type of situation. But, truth is, I don't.

[NosferaDrew]

...And you're going to have mulletted white redneck tourists who've been drinking non-stop since last Thursday, bunking right next to charter members of the Tupac Shakur Appreciation Society who probably are going to have issues with the formers rebel flag-adorned T-shirts.
Here's one of those rednecks:
This is a little clip from FoxNews (http://tiger.towson.edu/users/bstelt1/tvn/shep.mov) of Shepard Smith asking a guy why he didn't evacuate and he says, "None of your f---ing business".
:rolleyes:

[pscates2.0]

People are just, understandably, on edge and antsy. They really don't need reporters - particularly smarmy twits like Sheperd Smith - asking them dumb questions.

I would've said the same thing, followed by a smack perhaps.

:p

And Smith and the guy back in the Fox studios acting all indignant..."thanks for cussing on live TV". That's the biggest thing those two dorks have to worry about. Smith gets to fly back to New York or wherever, when it's all over. The worst he'll come out of this with is some messy hair and a wet pair of slacks.

I just hope everyoe can all hold it together.

I'd like to see a law passed, barring the news media from all hurricane areas. They're quite ridiculous, at this point.

:rolleyes:

Between the egotistical grandstanding and "I'm risking my safety for the viewer" bullcrap, the inaccurate reporting and embarrassing ad-libbing, blowing stuff out of proportion for dramatic effect, bugging distraught, preoccupied citizens with moronic questions, putting innocent cameramen and sound crew worker bees in harm's way, generally being in the way and acting like professional buttholes, etc., I'm not sure how much use these clowns are during these times.

I've yet to see one on TV this morning I wouldn't want to kick in the shin.

[InactionMan]

Seriously, the media should just set up a bunch of cameras before the storm hits and get the hell out. I don't need some jackass holding on to his hat and shouting to know a storm is bad when there are cars flying by behind him.

[FFL]

...And you're going to have mulletted white redneck tourists who've been drinking non-stop since last Thursday, bunking right next to charter members of the Tupac Shakur Appreciation Society who probably are going to have issues with the formers rebel flag-adorned T-shirts.I think you're underestimating the good nature of the people of New Orleans, as well as overestimating their tendency toward racial tension.

It ain't exactly Tennessee, ya know.
;)

All the racist assholes in the New Orleans area moved out to Kenner and Metarie many years ago. The city itself is a lot more harmonious than you might think.

[FFL]

New Orleans police had received more than 100 reports of people trapped on their roofs.Hmm, maybe ignoring that mandatory evacuation wasn't such a good idea after all...

[pscates2.0]

It ain't exactly Tennessee, ya know.
;)

Ha...funny. :err:

It can happen anywhere. Would "tourists" be classified as residents of outlying suburbs?

:)

Yeah, I was overstating a bit, for silly effect (always someone in every crowd who overlooks that aspect, and pulls out statistics and research studies :D ).

All along I hoped folks would chill and not worry. I never said "everyone", did I? But it goes back to my original thought on this: I do firmly believe in the "5% rule"...and sometimes, that all it takes. I've only seen it dozens of times in my life, as most everyone here has.

It's going to be a tough few days for everyone there, and I'm sincerely hoping everyone is coping and hanging out and being cool. I'm sure the vast majority are. I never doubted that. But there are always going to be problem elements, especially in a crowd this large, frightened and packed-in. That's a legit observation. Take the "redneck vs. gangsta" element completely out, if you want. Still doesn't change all the factors at play.

In any case, let's check back on the situation in 2-3 days...12-18 hours probably isn't enough time for heat, hunger, nicotine deprivation, claustrophibia, touchiness, worry, dread and frayed nerves to fully make its effects known.

What's sad is that so many of those folks won't have much to even go back to.

:(

I've only heard of spot flooding and one levee breached there. Maybe there wasn't as direct and huge a hit as we'd all feared?

Downtown isn't underwater, is it? Or is that still a possibility? Has the worst passed?

I don't have access to a TV here, so I'm just going on hours-old reports. What does the city look like right now? How did the glass in the downtown buildings fare?

[FFL]

NOLA is a completely unique city when it comes to racial tensions. Again, it's not that it's not there, it just moved out of the city back when the courts ordered school desegregation in the early '70's.

see http://www.nola.com/printer/printer.ssf?/education/content/stories/suburbs.html for context

But, this reminds me of one of my favorite stories about New Orleans. I was visiting with a group of friends, some who had never visited there, and none besides me who had ever lived there. We were saving money by staying in a hotel in East New Orleans, a couple of miles from the French Quarter.

First night there we were too tired for the Quarter so walked to the nearest bar a block or two from the hotel. On about my second drink, I noticed some of my friends glancing around uneasily and whispering to each other. I asked one "what's up?" and she whispered to me with some alarm, "we're the only white people in here." I laughed and told them to relax, that no one else noticed or cared about that.

I realized that I myself had neither noticed, or been concerned in the slightest when it was pointed out, and that things would be quite different in the same situation in pretty much any other large US city.

Back to the hurricane, though.
The worst seems to have passed. Downtown is indeed underwater, but it seems like 3-5 ft. at the most, and only a foot or two in most places. Lots of downtown buildings have lost glass.

All in all, it's bad, but not nearly as bad as the Worst Case Scenario that they seem to have barely avoided.

[pscates2.0]

Well, I have to say that I never felt "weird" or uncomfortable in my time there last summer, all my visits. No one cared, and I personally never encountered anything bad or weird at all. Everyone was actually very nice to me.

It is a unique city, probably because of the meshing of so much.

If it wasn't so hot and humid (and under yearly threat of being wiped out by a hurricane), it would easily be in my top 5 list of places to live. But those factors currently make it about 33rd.

:D

I've never sweated so much in my life!

I'm wanting to get home and see the footage. I'm sure it's devastating, but I genuinely got a bit sad last night when I stopped and imagined the French Quarter under 10 feet or so of water. Don't know why, but it bummed me out a great deal as I was going to bed.

Probably just because I've been there a bit, recognized so much of it and thought those parts of it were so neat. And so many stores, restaurants, bars, etc. all packed in there...that type of flooding would've undone them all! It would forever change the face and tone of the city. If not forever, then a long, long time.

I wonder if there's some sort of technology or idea not yet invented that could be implemented to totally secure that place, and protect it in the future? I'm guessing not, otherwise we'd know about it.

I was watching a show on Venice a few months back, about efforts Italy is taking to keep the sea at bay, and from coming in and "sinking" the city. Made me think of New Orleans...

[FFL]

Good info about the situation in the Superdome here:
http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?/base/news-18/1125318240129370.xml&storylist=louisiana

Good info about the overall NOLA situation here:
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/weather/

[Kickaha]

From CNN:
"I'm not doing too good right now," Chris Robinson told the AP via cell phone from his home east of the city's downtown. "The water's rising pretty fast. I got a hammer and an ax and a crowbar, but I'm holding off on breaking through the roof until the last minute. Tell someone to come get me please. I want to live."
-------

Maybe next time you'll *FUCKING LISTEN* you moron.

Assuming you live.

I *HATE* it that people just assume someone else will bail their ass out when they do something ASININELY STUPID. F*ck 'em. They were warned. They had options. They chose to be idiots? Fine, that's their business. But now they want someone else to risk their lives to come save theirs? Bullfrakingshit.

Make him pay for the rescue.

[pscates2.0]

Yeah, it's tough to get very torn-up over a situation like that. I don't want to see anyone hurt, but my gosh...did he think the city officials and meterologists were just joking around, issuing evacuation orders for kicks?

:confused:

I'd be worried about snakes and alligators, following all this. I'd be afraid to go back in my house, particularly one in an outlying, more rural area.

:eek:

If rescue personnel are sent after this nitwit, I wonder if he'll be cited or invoiced in some way? Kinda like that runaway bride vixen?

I'd feel really bad if some rescue crews went in and one of them got hurt or killed. That would make me pretty mad.

[eleazar]

Maybe I am just tense because all of my family lives in New Orleans and may not have homes to return to, and I have an uncle still there who had to stay behind because he works for Entergy (the electric company) but some of the last posts that I have read are just amazing. I just love how people spout off about stuff they just don't know about. One thing all people from New Orleans know is that during times of crisis, color doesn't matter a damn bit. You think color mattered during 9/11?

And for those who think that people are idiots for not evacuating need to get a reality check and realize that not everybody can afford to evacuate. I know this is a forum full of people who buy overpriced computers but there are people out there who don't have cars you know. There are only so many resources that are available to those people to evacuate.

and to Kikaha - your post in particular has to be the dumbest piece of crap I have ever read on the internet. Be glad it's not someone you know who wasn't able to leave.

[Kickaha]

That's what evacuation shelters are for. They're free. That's what they're there for. Superdome, anyone? Room for 60,000 more... I'm sorry, but while I'm sure there is a *TINY* number of people who really, honestly, swear to god had *NO CHOICE*... for every one of those, there have got to be 50 who are just idiots who chose to ignore all warnings, ignore all options, and decided to 'tough it out', only to expect *SOMEONE ELSE* to save their stupid asses and risk their own lives doing it.

People need to stop being such idiots, and we need to stop bailing them out.

Help those who need it to get out, forget those who *choose* to put themselves into danger's way. It was their choice, and they should live or die with the consequences.

I hope you and yours are safe, but I have zero, and I mean *ZERO* sympathy for those who choose to ignore warnings and options, and then want someone else to save them. I really don't.

I'd much rather spend my resources helping those who had half a brain and did what they could to minimize the problem on their own. I think we'd all be better off in general if people did their best to be self-sufficient, and simply look out for their neighbor a bit, instead of acting like it doesn't matter what they do, 'someone else' will save them.

Unfortunately, in many cases you can't tell the unfortunates from the idiots.

I've been through a couple of hurricanes here in NC, and remember the ash clouds from Mt. St. Helens roiling over the ridge across from my house and filling the valley, and us not knowing if we were going to be okay. When you have warnings, and you have options, you freaking *take* them. If you choose not to, then that's your choice, but don't go crying for someone to save you afterwards. We should all do our best to help those who need it because they want it, but if someone chooses not to heed warnings... *shrug* that's their business. Hope they make it, not going to lose much sleep if they don't. They knew the risks, and chose to take them.

Now, those that need help to evacuate, *help them*. Check on your elderly neighbors, check on your friends, make sure everyone you care about (and maybe a few you hate) can get out. Try and convince the reluctant ones, but if they refuse... not much you can do.

[pscates2.0]

Hey, eleazer...I've been in two situations that were kind of bad. And you wouldn't think folks would show out or act up, but they did. No, certainly not all. Or even many. But enough to make things tougher and scarier than they had to be.

:(

Relax. I was being partly silly, BUT I was also wondering about it all - in a legitimate way, based on experience I'VE witnessed - so you don't have to get all up in arms and defend your fair city. Has nothing to do with New Orleans. Or my town. Or any town in particular.

But I've seen - with my own peepers - folks behaving in ways that shocked, and saddened me, during moments when you thought everyone WOULD be in full "pull together" mode. Don't be so naive as to think every single individual is some noble, gentle soul in times of turmoil. Because that's just unrealistic.

I'm not ROOTING for "bad things" happening, dammit. I'm legitimately wondering what it must be like for thousands of people, crammed in close, after a couple of days. It can be ANYONE.

Personally, I'd go nuts after about a day-and-a-half. I dig quiet and solitude, so I'd be pretty on edge in such a huge crowd of strangers.

You and a few others have gotten hung up on the race thing more than it was ever meant to be. I was trying to choose the two most far-flung extremes of folks who may be there to make a point, and in no way was making it sound like the entire joint was primed for a rumble or race riot, or that folks "can't get along".

:rolleyes:

But there are shitheads, troublemakers and hardcases in every crowd or gathering. And they're represented by all genders, races, economic status, etc. THAT'S what I was curious about. It can be two white-as-paste guys beating the hell out of one another, or whatever. That's not the point.

I imagine 98% of the people there are sad and scared, and just wanting to make it through this. And keeping an eye on that roof...

[The Return of the 'nut]

One thing all people from New Orleans know is that during times of crisis, color doesn't matter a damn bit. You think color mattered during 9/11?

there's an asshole in every crowd. and when tensions and stress are high, the ugly side of people comes out.

may i remind you that some people's response to 9/11 was to grab as much loot they could from local stores and people.


also, most of the criticism here is directed at those who CHOSE not to leave out of stubburness, machoesm, stupudity, or "the coolness" factor. There was no warning to 9/11, these people had fair warning they were in harms way and some of them decided they were bigger than nature. They are idiots

[Kickaha]

And just to further clarify...

Those who choose to bunker down because they've taken proper precautions, know what they're doing, and know that it's on their own heads... I wish them luck.

The ones I can't abide are those that figure it'll be no problem despite every shred of evidence to the contrary, grab a few cans of food and maybe some Aquafina bottles, get in way over their heads, and then *expect* someone to save them.

[torifile]

You think color mattered during 9/11?



Did you miss the hate crimes perpetrated on Middle Eastern looking people?

Anyway, I hope you and yours are safe. Kick and scates are our local curmudgeons. Just ignore them. ;)

[pscates2.0]

Stow it, Sammy.

I'm as friendly and loving as the day is long.

Just don't make me mad.

:p

Hey, I just saw a building on fire on the news. The whole roof was burning. How's that for a kick in the head. This building is surrounded by water (a flooded area), and was burning like a biscuit.

:(

There's irony for you...acres of water around, just none getting onto the roof.

I did see aerial footage of a shopping mall I think I recognized. Its parking lot was mostly underwater.

And oh yeah: big story just now on MSNBC about looting. BIG-time looting.

:err:

[Foj]

And oh yeah: big story just now on MSNBC about looting. BIG-time looting.

storms like this give looters the perfect chance to ransack places. hardly anyone's around to stop them and no power to work the security cameras. :grumble: :(

[FFL]

Just saw a pretty emotional segment on CNN a few minutes ago. A CNN reporter in the flooded neighborhoods of E. NOLA was talking by phone with the host and she nearly broke into tears several times while she described hearing people stranded on their roofs calling out in the dark for help from the rescue boats, and knowing that those people would be on their own until it was safe for the boats to return in the morning.
:(

[murbot]

Seems like a good time to riot and takes hostages.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1081633&page=1

Jesus H. Christ

[pscates2.0]

I'm going to guess that there are probably about 17,500 things more urgent, important and critical than some photo captions on Yahoo or whatever. I guess we should be thankful we all have the luxury to bitch about and debate such things. Isn't that nice. I'm betting no one in the photos is currently giving two damns.

:(

Anyway...

Not to be morbid, but since these waters are only rising and getting EVERYWHERE now, has anyone heard anything about any sort of alligator and snake situations? That has to be a concern at some point.

I mean, once you get out of the city area, you're in all these marshes and bayous (I took 2-3 trips to them while visiting there last summer...it's like a real-life Dagobah). And there are some critters there you DO NOT want to be running into in chest-deep water.

:eek:

Anyone heard reports about any serious encounters with these animals? They're just like anything else...they're going to seek out dry, high land too.

[thegelding]

just talking to my daughter about this subject this morning....breaking in stores to get food, water, milk, blankets, candles, batteries, baby food, diapers, medicene...is not looting at this point...the stores aren't open and nobody is there to sell items that people need to just survive...

taking TVs and stereos when there is no electricty is looting, though a radio might be useful...taking jewerly is fucking looting as it has no no no valve to help you survive...if you are breaking into a jewerly store at this point instead of getting things to help you and your family live through the next 7 days, you are a asshat that should have an gator bite your johnson off so you slowly bleed to death and....
grrrr...just makes me mad as soooo many people are fighting to survive and doing what they can, what they need to...and people see these shits and think everyone in N.O. is like that, doing that

and it is gonna get worse, ecspecially after that looter shot a cop in the head...

i don't think you will see any cops protecting grocery stores from "looters"...but some looter will be shot, by cops, by other looters, etc...and then we will get into huge agruements over the valve of life vs the valve of stuff...
i personally think stuff has very little valve...at the same time i think people taking advantage of a horrid situation like this also have very little valve...so it is a tough call...

people surviving should get a free pass...food, ok...batteries, ok....plasma tv on your head? can i see a receipt? no? cuff em

turn the superbowl into a jail and make it a john carpenter movie...escape from NO


my thoughts this AM is that they break all the levys, totally start from scratch and turn NO into a Venice, Italy here in America....of course when i told my daughter this idea of canals and gondolas and how beautiful it would be she reminded me that this is america and we wouldn't have gondolas but instead motorboats and jet skis...not quite the same thing

g

[InactionMan]

I read in the National Post (crappy Canadian paper) that they had declared Martial Law in NO. Can anyone conforim this?

If so, the looters best smarten up.

[pscates2.0]

That was a good post, g. Funny in places (the whole "gator biting your johnson off" made me giggle out loud) and your assessment of the looting situation matches mine at this point.

I don't expect people to just lie down and die, slowly starving themselves to death or fading from thirst. I tend to give a pass on that because, frankly, if I were there...

But you're dead-on about the OTHER side of the coin, and what constitutes "looting" and being an asshat.

As for the radio thing...you've got small handheld, battery-powered AM things. Those aren't the JVC or Philips component systems in boxes measuring 2x3 feet that I was seeing loaded into carts last night.

I was thinking this morning about taking a whole "f*** it...it's lost" approach. What can they do? They abandoned the sandbag idea last evening...it wasn't working. And you've got simple physics at play...that water isn't going to stop rising until it all comes in and equals out. Do you know what that means? Water EVERYWHERE 20-35' deep. More commonly known as a "lake".

:(

What are the possibilities of removing everyone, leveling the joint, giving it a decade or so to sit there and then re-thinking it all at some point down the road? Who is going to go back to a home that's been in 12 feet of water? You've lost everything, may as well start over in Houston or St. Louis or Birmingham. I would.

:(

And frankly, even if I DID get to my house, got it fixed up (or demolished and rebuilt), I don't think I want these memories and fears of "what if?" hanging over me anymore. Living below seal level just wouldn't cut it for me, I don't give a damn who cool and fun the place might be. That's why they have things called "vacations"...you go somewhere like that for week or so, have a wonderful time, then get the hell out so you're not living in a punch bowl with impending doom looming over your head every day of your life.

Perhaps this is the ULTIMATE wake-up call? How are they ever going to get that place cleaned up, safe, non-toxic, livable, dried out, etc. again?

It'll be years. I'll turn 40 years old in four years and the place will STILL be a royal, unlivable mess. And those poor folks in those parts of town I saw last summer...those rickety wooden houses in such disrepair. What would they ever regain?

This gets worse everytime I check the news.

Such a beautiful, historic and funky city, with so much character and vibe.

:(

[Brad]

my thoughts this AM is that they break all the levys, totally start from scratch and turn NO into a Venice, Italy here in America....of course when i told my daughter this idea of canals and gondolas and how beautiful it would be she reminded me that this is america and we wouldn't have gondolas but instead motorboats and jet skis...not quite the same thing
I don't think the average American is smart enough to handle water transportation. Heck, many Americans are piss-poor at handling land transportation. :\

Sounds like a really fun idea, though. :)

Perhaps this is the ULTIMATE wake-up call? How are they ever going to get that place cleaned up, safe, non-toxic, livable, dried out, etc. again?
I hate to sound like an insensitive jerk, but I tend to agree: ultimate wake-up call. A year or two ago, I read this in-depth report about how the development of New Orleans and the canals has so severely damaged the ecosystems and geography and such and how if major changes weren't made in the next 15 years, there would be serious and irrevocable problems with the environment. I only wish I could remember the details of it or who published it (some university professor(s)). Maybe this was Mother Nature saying, "F--- you, I want this plot of land back before you ruin it for good." :\

[pscates2.0]

On the surface, it's a neat idea...how romantic of a weekend getaway to America's own "Venice" would that be!

:)

But the lure of romance and smooching would probably be negated by the oily, putrid, gator-infested, turd-filled water your gondola is cruising through. You're better off going to the real Venice, at that point.

:(

And, as Brad said, most people seem to struggle enough with simply driving on land.

:err:

[Chinney]

I was writing the below before seeing ‘scates and Brad’s posts – in somewhat the same vein….

I hate to ask this, but - depending on the level of damage to buildings and infrastructure - I wonder whether consideration should be given to rebuilding New Orleans somewhere else, nearby in Louisiana. I guess that it in many ways it would not be New Orleans anymore if it was built somewhere else. But perhaps something could be rebuilt, fairly close by, but in a less vulnerable site, but consciously incorporating the spirit of the city and even re-using as much as can be salvaged. I know that this would be horribly expensive – perhaps much more so than rebuilding on the same site. Also, anything in the area will still be vulnerable to hurricane strikes. On the other hand, the particular vulnerabilities of the current site are quite severe and it is not clear that they can be remedied by engineering. If sea-levels rise with global warming and hurricanes become more frequent – both possibilities under some models – then these problems are only going to become more severe, long term.

It is a hard question to even consider, but maybe it should be asked.

[Chinney]

Guys, the race angle is an interesting and worthwhile discussion, but let’s give it a break for now. Recent stories are now suggesting a possible death toll not in the hundreds anymore, but in the thousands. http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5246241,00.html And even for some survivors the situation is likely to get more desperate over the next hours. And many, many of those now in safety have lost their homes, businesses and jobs – some with little hope of any direct recovery. Black and white.

[Franz Josef]

I'd be interested to know what people feel about both the response to and preparation for the hurricane? How have the authorities performed - federal and local?

[Sauvblanc]

The news reports pouring in are pretty horrific. The latest one suggests that the "worst case" scenario as far as predicted casualities could well come true. I feel for the people in the area and wish them the best. Apparently in 2001 FEMA said that a hurricane hit on NOLA would be amongst "the three likeliest, most catastrophic disasters facing this country".

In that light, while the following links might be inappropriate and served with a large helping of hindsight at this point, they are rather interesting.

American Progress Action Fund report (http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=914257&ct=1364537)

The above is from the American Progress Action Fund. In surfing through the site, it seems rather left-wing and virulently anti-Bush/anti-Republican. I don't know a whole lot behind this organization but they have a lot of links to news articles. Looks like part sensationalism and part fact and quite interesting.

But would maintaining or increasing funding for NOLA in terms of hurricane protection projects have helped with something like Katrina? Hard to say, really. Perhaps the dams and levees would have held better?

Toronto Star article (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1125438626479&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907624636&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes)

This article from the Toronto Star kind of touches on what's been said by Scates and Kick insofar as the media and people staying behind. This is the first article that I've seen that places the blame for people thinking they can ride out a storm squarely on the media's oversensationalization of what in the past were mere hiccups compared to Katrina.

I'm probably setting myself up for some serious flaming. Given that global warming has been implicated in the increase in the number and destructive power of hurricanes, there seems to be a sad irony in the fact that it causes most of the damage to a country whose president refuses to acknowledge that global warming even exists. Sure, the problem was around long before Bush arrived, but he's not doing anything to help matters.

[Kickaha]

Actually, I don't blame the media, I blame the people. Yes, the media oversensationalises crap - it's what they *DO*. The Natl Weather Service though? Not so much. Nobody ever said weather prediction was an exact science, but understanding what 'odds' are means more than knowing how to place a bet at the blackjack casino. Never once did I blame the media. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Additionally, can we *PLEASE* keep the frickin' politics out of this thread at least? It really doesn't mean squat that a hurricane hit NOLA while Bush is in office. Not. One. Bit. Get over it.

[Sauvblanc]

Kick,

No, no, no, I didn't put words in your mouth. I know that you left the media out of it and put the blame squarely on the stupidity of the people themselves. I'm aware of that. And I'm really just as cynical about the whole thing.

*sigh* apparently I need to find a way to communicate better. Maybe with practice...

My point was that there were two disparate viewpoints that on the face of it had nothing to do with each other. One being the media's actions/reactions to the hurricane (touted by scates) and the other being the appalling lack of intelligence exhibited by certain people in thinking they could "ride it out" (by yourself, amongst others...sorry for picking on you). And then along comes an article that purports to combine the two and blames one for the other-and criticizes both factions. It was an interesting take by one person-views not necessarily shared by me.

As for politics...point taken. Hurricanes don't care who's in the White House.

[Kickaha]

Sauvblanc: No worries. I apparently misunderstood your point.

[Moogs]

Is it just me or... WTF (!) is with all the piddly shit corporate donations.

$1 Million from DUPONT CHEMICAL?? One Million dollars to DuPont is like a cheeseburger to one of us. That is disgusting IMHO.

Same with Home Depot - $1 Million. Hell they could donate $50 Million and not even feel a pinch.

And the Mighty Walmart... so generous they are *gasp* freezing prices. Freezing prices? Assholes you were making a nice profit to begin with, how about offering survival supplies to agencies and other desperate people at cost? While you're at it how about $50 million from you too?

Oh yah, the benevolent Verizon (I think) is offering free wi-fi to the area....

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/cwm/big/Duhard.gifno words for that one....


My better half's company which will remain nameless, but is a very big company, donated $100,000 and won't even match contributions.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU STINGY CORPORATE FUCKS? Sure you pour your pockets out to a disaster halfway around the world (as you should), but not here? Not horrific enough for you assholes?

Sorry for the rant, but I saw these number this morning and I wanted to vomit.

[atomicbartbeans]

Oh yah, the benevolent Verizon (I think) is offering free wi-fi to the area...
Even sadder, T-Mobile is offering that in New Orleans too.

Until September 2. Come on, offer something more useful like a free pay-phone...

So, you have 2 days to find a hotspot (assuming your computer survived the storm) and email your family.

[Kickaha]

Wow, that's about useless.

How about instead, dropping some of those disposable cell phones in there? The ones that are just a couple of bucks each, fully charged, and might be able to, I dunno, *float*.

Emergency packs with water, food, and one of those, and start dropping them on rooftops with people you can't quite evac yet.

Naw. Too obvious. Never happen.

[FFL]

I hear that the Red Cross is bringing a lot of satellite phones to let survivors use. They're the only mode of communication that will work reliably for quite a while.

[Chinney]

Were the long term preparations in New Orleans enough? This story indicates that the questioning has begun:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1560269,00.html

Maybe so - maybe not. My question continues to be about the long-term viability of the immediate New Orleans area as the site of a large city, preparations or no.

[Moogs]

BartBeans is correct: it was T-Mobile I was thinking of, not Verizon. No idea if they're doing anything or not.

[Kickaha]

Ooooookay, so a couple days ago I posted:

I think we'd all be better off in general if people did their best to be self-sufficient, and simply look out for their neighbor a bit, instead of acting like it doesn't matter what they do, 'someone else' will save them.

I've expressed that sentiment elsewhere and been fucking flamed hard.

Just now on CNN I see interviews with some poor folks in Biloxi. It consisted of (and these are direct quotes):

"Where's FEMA? I need a trailer!"

"You'd think they'd send someone down here."

"The police told Mrs. X where she could obtain water, but she says it's too far away."

"Where are the police? My neighbors drowned, and one of their bodies was in the yard for *two days*! It was disgraceful!"

Yeeeeeeah.... apparently no one can move the body themselves, organize a run for water, or maybe realize that yeah, it sucks for them... and about a million other people.

Here's a radical idea... DO IT YOURSELF. *STOP* waiting for some authority figure to save your ass, and DO IT YOURSELF. *STOP* waiting for God or government, depending on whether you're on the right or left, to jump in and bail you out, DO IT YOURSELF.

Has anyone else seen even *ONE* makeshift raft in all the footage of NOLA? I haven't. I'd be fricking lashing one together out of milk cartons and strips ripped from sheets if I had to, and looking for better transport to go check on the neighbors, and try and get folks out.

I just... I can't fathom the mindset of thinking you're so helpless and weak that you need someone else to do everything for you. I just can't.

Forget watching the news, this is just too much inanity for this guy to handle.

[The Return of the 'nut]

Is it just me or... WTF (!) is with all the piddly shit corporate donations.

$1 Million from DUPONT CHEMICAL?? One Million dollars to DuPont is like a cheeseburger to one of us. That is disgusting IMHO.

Same with Home Depot - $1 Million. Hell they could donate $50 Million and not even feel a pinch.

And the Mighty Walmart... so generous they are *gasp* freezing prices. Freezing prices? Assholes you were making a nice profit to begin with, how about offering survival supplies to agencies and other desperate people at cost? While you're at it how about $50 million from you too?

Oh yah, the benevolent Verizon (I think) is offering free wi-fi to the area....

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/cwm/big/Duhard.gifno words for that one....


My better half's company which will remain nameless, but is a very big company, donated $100,000 and won't even match contributions.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU STINGY CORPORATE FUCKS? Sure you pour your pockets out to a disaster halfway around the world (as you should), but not here? Not horrific enough for you assholes?

Sorry for the rant, but I saw these number this morning and I wanted to vomit.

The New York Yankees donated 1 million. I think these megacorporations can do better. But its still early. Right now money is the least of New Orleans problems.

[DMBand0026]

<snip, even though I agree with you...it was just too long to quote the whole thing>

It's the mindset people are in these days, that they should be taken care of, that it's the government's responsibility to take care of them. This certainly isn't an isolated incident either. Anyone remember the Super Bowl from a few years ago? People expected the US government to protect them from the boob that they saw. They wanted Janet Jackson shot and they wanted CBS (I think CBS carried the game) fined millions of dollars.

People want violent video games banned...ect. It's all about people not wanting to take responsibility for themselves. They want to be taken care of. I think that it's the responsibility of a government to take care of its citizens, but only to a certain point. If they give a mandatory evacuation notice, I have very little sympathy.

It's all about being an adult, taking care of what you need to take care of, and being responsible for yourself. Just like an adult should be.

[pscates2.0]

Has anyone else seen even *ONE* makeshift raft in all the footage of NOLA? I haven't. I'd be fricking lashing one together out of milk cartons and strips ripped from sheets if I had to, and looking for better transport to go check on the neighbors, and try and get folks out.

Yeah, and you'd probably get about two blocks (nautical blocks) before you got raft-jacked.

:err:

I hear it's thug city down there, in places.

:(

[Franz Josef]

Were the long term preparations in New Orleans enough? This story indicates that the questioning has begun:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1560269,00.html

Maybe so - maybe not.
Yes, I'd like to get a feel for whether sufficient work was done in advance - some of the news reports are comparing NO to a series of shanty towns. In some ways I'm struggling with the thought that the damage and loss of life was entirely unavoidable.

Re the Guardian article, this newspapaer, though very well-respected, is definitely on the left politically and very much against Bush/Blair's policies in Iraq. So claims that the war in Iraq reduced funding for levees ought to be viewed in that context.

[pscates2.0]

Well this just tears it...

I don't see it online yet, but on CNN they're talking of people taking potshots at helicopters airlifting folks out of the Superdome to Houston.

:mad: :no:

And on a related note:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.hospitals/index.html

Now we can debate the ethics of "looting" (and what constitutes survival) and we can get all into Yahoo! photo captions.

But there's no "gray" area on this one, guys.

Go back and read what I said on Monday, before the levee gave way and things got bad. I said there's always a small group in every crowd making it tough.

So because some true a-holes have decided to make helicopters target practice, the evacuation from the Superdome is on hold.

:rolleyes:

Nice.

:(

Here's the irony: with families and friends all separated from one another, how do these shooters know that their grandma or nephews or brothers might be on that helicopter?

People leaving my city today to go down and help. Leaving their families, nice, dry and clean homes. And they see this and know that they're possible targets now?

That's just horrible.

How hard is it to NOT be an asshole?

There's no correlation between "getting water for my family" and "shooting at evac choppers".

My patience and understanding are wearing thin and winding down, and I'm just about all for a "shoot anyone acting like a shithead" approach.

Most - 98% - aren't. But look what that small number is doing! As I said Monday, there's that small segment who just needlessly makes things worse and tougher than they have to be...for no good or real reason other than that they're thugs and can't act right.

National guardsman shot this morning...

The hits just keep on coming.

What's going to happen if this stuff isn't cracked down on?

You tell me.

[drewprops]

I've seen makeshift rafts made of air mattresses, large plastic tubs and other shaped, solid containers. They were being used to transport people who were unable to walk through the water due to ill health or disabilities. Saw it on FOX at the lunch bar yesterday.

For those of you who live outside the States, most of us never imagined that anything like this could actually happen to New Orleans. In fact, we never thought about it... at least those of us in other cities. Mostly because we have our own challenges, not because we don't care. America is a big country and we, regionally, like to take care of our own business up to the point that we cannot. It's not arrogance, it's just the way things work... it's the way things work around the world I imagine. We all like to take care of our business up until the point we can't - it's human nature.

So the levee system that failed? The system that was inadequate? It's been that way for as long as I can remember. For anyone to infer that one President's administration is to blame shows an ignorance of the city's history.

If you want to judge anything, judge how we handle this situation because it's desperately beyond our control just now.

[Franz Josef]

Interesting comments, drewprops :) and I hope this doesn't become some sad party-political free for all. From this side of the pond it's difficult to imagine the destructiveness of a hurricane and intuitively I feel surprised that it was possible for so much damage to come about without more preventative measures being taken - perhaps it simply wasn't realistic to do more than was done.

[autodata]

For those of you who live outside the States, most of us never imagined that anything like this could actually happen to New Orleans.
Good point. Even right after katrina blew over and before the most sever flooding everyone was like, "Well, that's all it was." There has been increasing public discourse about the possibility, but the idea of a major US city succumbing to this kind of disaster has been tooo outlandish of an idea for people to really take seriously. On top of that, it's hard to take what we see in the media seriously since so much is blown out of proportion for ratings, with doomsday predictions about y2k, etc, really just a bunch of hype. Unfortunately in this case it wasn't.

[autodata]

Re the Guardian article, this newspapaer, though very well-respected, is definitely on the left politically and very much against Bush/Blair's policies in Iraq. So claims that the war in Iraq reduced funding for levees ought to be viewed in that context.
Well, there is no question that the war reduced funding for the levees. I don't know about the impact of the funding problems from last year, but certainly the funding reduction this year couldn't have had too much of an impact, seeing as though it was only 2 months or so ago. It's not like it's a partisan issue to talk about this, either, considering that I've mostly read about in more conservative sources with quotes from southern republicans. One thing I did notice that was unfortunate was that when I look at european press coverage they can't seem to be able to write an article on it without using the word "kyoto." oh well

[Franz Josef]

when I look at european press coverage they can't seem to be able to write an article on it without using the word "kyoto." oh wellI'm afraid Kyoto rankles big time this side of the Atlantic. :rolleyes:

[Chinney]

I agree that the comment in the newspaper article linking funding problems for repairs/improvements to levees with the war in Iraq was misguided. Given the complexity and multi-layered nature of government budgeting it is simplistic and essentially meaningless to link inadequacies in long-term funding in one area to a specific recent spending in another area, like the Iraq war.

What was more interesting was that there were these long-term issues with the funding for the protection of New Orleans. I was not aware of those issues before reading the article. But that is not a partisan matter.

My larger question, however, is whether funding is really the issue – and whether there has to be some fundamental re-thinking of locating a large residential and industrial centre on such a vulnerable site. Maybe more funding and better engineering will work. Or maybe the site is just too hard to protect.

[709]

My patience and understanding are wearing thin and winding down, and I'm just about all for a "shoot anyone acting like a shithead" approach.Hear, hear.

[thegelding]

i tell you, with looting, arson, gunfire at helicopters...it is turning into Escape from New York, New Orleans style...

just remake the movie, but throw in some flooding and gators

that said...it is likely HELL there and getting worse...i would not wish what is happening to those people on my worse enemy...

thousands are likely dead, thousands more will likely die unless something amazing happens...

g

[thegelding]

i think the site is perhaps too hard to perfectly protect...a city below sea level works in the middle of a state or country...doesn't do as well on the coast...maybe a smaller city or a city that doesn't get hurricanes...but hard to protect a city the size and placement of new orleans...

as for funding...eh, i do know i wish we had the 200 billion we spent on the war back and the national guard back to help this disaster...but that is all just hindsight i guess

g


and to show i am not just a left wing guy slamming the righties and not slamming the left and minorities (i was poor and lived in extremely poor neighborhoods...took a few candy bars in my days...but never would have thought of looting...the few semi disasters i lived through in my 44 years, we always helped the people in need)...i think i am pretty dissapointed in jesse jackson...he should be down there asking for calm and an end to the looting and a pulling together of the people for a sane evacuation of everybody from the entire city

don't just show up when a white cop kills a black kid (yes, show up then, you have a right to do that and point out that race is still an issue at times), also show up when this shit is going down...people there might listen to you...they might not, but you should try

[pscates2.0]

Anarchy. Or the old west...whoever's the meanest or biggest or has the gun wins.

:(

I've been on the fence regarding the looting (the ones trying to get water or whatever haven't disturbed me that much because I think I might be tempted to do the same, simply to live).

But when I heard about the gunfire on helicopters this morning...well, I won't tell you what ran through my mind.

:err:

I just thought "we've really hit a low point...people are SHOOTING at the brave, selfless people who have come there to HELP them!"

:mad:

I threw a mini fit in my living room this morning.

:D

[thegelding]

as for lashing rafts together and such...well the people still in NO likely want to be there, for a while at least...

they don't have tvs working and aren't watching the news 24 hours a day...they likely think, it will get better, i can wait this out and have all this stuff i looted...if they leave they want have all that, and also, where do they go??

they probably don't know that the city is fucked for years

they will "tough it out" till they start getting sick or run out of food and water...

as i said, it is hell now...it will be hell times 100 soon

somebody has to reach those people and let them know the city is gone

g

[pscates2.0]

My gosh...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.impact/index.html

I check CNN's site every hour or so, hopeful that there will be a huge story about 100 helicopters arriving, 18-wheelers packed with food, blankets and water rolling into the region, tensions easing, buses shuttling folks out by the hundreds, etc.

But instead, I see the above. Boat rescues suspended because the rescuers are in danger from violence, and can't do their job.

That's just great...

:o

It seems to get worse by the hour.

:(

I'm going to go outside and lay in the grass during lunch, and look at my blue sky...

[DMBand0026]

Here's my solution: (I'm sure I'm just reiterating what many of you have been saying already) Shoot them, shoot them all and leave them. There are people down there who want to ruin this for everyone else, they should be shot and killed, no questions asked. When we have the potential ability to save thousands of lives but are being held back because of a small percentage of people, I say shoot that small percentage and lets save the thousands of lives.

It baffles me as to why anyone would want to shoot at someone trying to help out. How can someone shoot at the national guard? How can someone shoot at people trying to rescue? How can someone do something like that? It's sickening and angering.

Shoot them. Kill the few that are causing problems so we can save those who just want out. Maybe this seems intolerant on my part, but my patients is gone. I've never taken part in an effort like this myself, but I know what it's like to take someone's life into my own hands. Those people that are going into the worst areas to rescue those in need are selfless heros who deserve nothing less than our absolute respect and admiration.

Shoot the troublemakers. End of story.

[Kickaha]

Well said.

[pscates2.0]

I have to admit, that's becoming my stance since this morning.

Step back and look at it purely for what it is (take all the other political, racial, etc. crap off the table for 30 seconds): there are THOUSANDS of scared, hungry people not getting the help and services they need because of a small handful of idiots and thugs?

Where is the sanity in that?

It's just all too much to imagine...

[DMBand0026]

I have to admit, that's becoming my stance since this morning.

Step back and look at it purely for what it is (take all the other political, racial, etc. crap off the table for 30 seconds): there are THOUSANDS of scared, hungry people not getting the help and services they need because of a small handful of idiots and thugs?

Where is the sanity in that?

It's just all too much to imagine...

Spot on. Shoot the thugs, save the people who just need help.

[The Return of the 'nut]

I know there is a bit of a risk admitting this, but there are times when I can be a bit ra cist. I'm not proud of it, I wish I wasn't. But, I am in certain regards. Growing up I was exposed to some mild racism but you know, I try to always treat everyone equally, give everyone the benefit of the doubt, etc.

But this situation is making it very hard for me. I know many of you will say, it's not that it's black people it's that they are poor and uneducated or whatever. And I can't help but call bullshit on that. You know, it is a part of black life that a large portion of their ethnicity is poor. It's very unfortunate that it is that way but it is the truth. That does not mean that you have to behave in a manner such as these people are behaving. They are behaving like wild animals. Somehow they choose to stay, survive, and then hold on to their guns as their prized possession and shoot at rescuers, loot neighbors, stores, etc, set fires, create danger and fear.

It's hard to explain myself, but, it's not that they are black. It's the black culture and attitude. I've been around black poor people, I've been around white poor people, spanish latino, puerto rican, etc. There are significant differences between each, and while it's not because there skin is a certain color it is because large majorities of each have certain mindsets and attitudes. And this is just pissing me off.

I know it's not the majority doing all of this in New Orleans but it certainly seems like a fairly large amount.

I don't even know what the right procedure to take is. I'm against shooting people to create safety but it seems it may be the only way.

Well, hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say and don't just think of being a racist bigot.

[FFL]

I'm thinking there are three groups of people that ignored the mandatory evacuation order:

- those too poor to have resources to get out of town
- those who believed that they could "ride it out"
- those who stayed specifically with plans of participating in post-storm looting, mayhem, etc.

[FFL]

Interesting article (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168122,00.html) that touches on two things...

1. Fats Domino rode the storm out in his 9th Ward home and has not been heard from. :\ :|

2. Hopefully, some additional New Orleans musicians will be invited to perform on the national telethons now being planned.

[pscates2.0]

That was brought up this morning on CNN, that third point of FFL's.

Back before anyone imagined the levee giving way and this horrible flooding, there was talk of the prospect of some staying behind because they knew so many others would be far away, out of town.

It would be a bonanza!

I think those three groups definitely exist. I have all the compassion for the first ones, and hope they get some relief.

The second ones, I have to think they're quite foolish. Everyone was telling them "this is bad...please leave!", and they didn't. They'd still lose their house and all, but they'd be in some dry area, eating Subway sandwiches and sleeping in a real bed at Motel 6.

The last group... :err: I think I've made myself plenty clear of what I think of them.

Fats Domino is missing? I'm not being flippant, but I thought he died like 20 years ago?

:confused:

I'm usually up on my rock and roll pioneer types (Berry, Diddley, Lewis, etc.), and I could've sworn he died when I was in high school? Complications from diabetes or something like that. Hell, I didn't know he was still alive! He's got to be knocking on 80-something, at least.

I love Fats Domino! I hope he's okay. Maybe he's one of those people sitting on a rooftop somewhere and he'll be picked up soon.

[The Return of the 'nut]

Fats Domino is missing? I'm not being flippant, but I thought he died like 20 years ago?

:confused:


I was going to say the same thing but didn't want to make myself look more foolish



Unfortunately, this may be the event that brings the Bush Administration down. The leadership (specifically the lack of it) has been absolutely horrendous. I understand the environment and situation is very dire and difficult but this has just been a pathetic rescue and evacuation operation. Starting from before the storm hit and up to now. It scares me how unprepared our nation is for situations like this, 9/11 scared me in many of the same ways. But this is a whole other level.

[DMBand0026]

<snip>

Nut, I'm not entirely sure how to respond to your comments, but I doubt that you're alone in your feelings toward different races. I challenge anyone to prove they are completely unbiased when it comes to race/religion/creed/gender...ect. I'm not saying it's right or trying to justify it however.

I can say that I know for a fact that ignorance, intolerance, and just general stupidity knows no boundaries. One of the communities I worked in as a paramedic had a good part of town, and a very bad part of town. I happened to be in the very bad part of town. We'd get calls all the time for domestics, gang activity, stabbings, gun shot victims, and of course the typical BS calls that we get.

The thing that I learned more as time went on was that the calls for the worst of things weren't limited to one race or gender. We had two calls for gunshot wounds in one night a few months ago, the first one was a white kid, the second, a black kid. We get calls for ODs, some white, some black, some hispanic, some Asian...it really makes no difference.

The common bond is the lack of education. Ignorance is a huge factor. We know that the people more likely to call 911 are those with a lower income due to lower education. We get calls from every race, religion, and gender for everything from gunshot wounds to difficulty breathing because the person doesn't understand that the fact that they've been chain smoking for 20 years is affecting their ability to breathe. Red, yellow, black, white...it makes no difference, it's income secondary to education.

What I'm saying is, don't allow yourself to be blinded by race. Sure, a lot of the people doing the looting and shooting may be black, but I guarantee you that there's a group of equally ignorant white people somewhere, there's a group of equally ignorant Hispanic people somewhere, there's a group of equally ignorant Asians somewhere.

Race isn't the deciding factor, it's education. Anyone has the ability to get an education, but at the same time, everyone has the inherent ability to be ignorant.




I'm thinking there are three groups of people that ignored the mandatory evacuation order:

- those too poor to have resources to get out of town
- those who believed that they could "ride it out"
- those who stayed specifically with hopes of participating in post-storm looting

The first group should be rescued first

The second group shouldn't be a priority. A mandatory evacuation notice is given for a reason.

The third group should be shot.

For me, this is cut and dry...

ugh, no pun intended.

[pscates2.0]

It just seems so damn overwhelming. September 11, horrible as it is and will always be, it was confined, and the rest of the city "worked". Believe me, I'm not downplaying its impact or importance - or the emotional and physical damage it inflicted.

But this New Orleans thing...where do you start? It's all so connected and "broken".

You can't fix this, until that is working. But that isn't working because you can't have this moved in because that isn't there. But that can't be there because this is still not working because that...

:(

It just doesn't seem to end. Like nine things have to be done, but they're sequential and none of the steps are able to be done because of the flooding, the lack of power, the lack of resources, the trouble getting into areas, etc.

9/11 saddened and angered me, and broke my heart in about 11 pieces.

But this is more of a sense of just a dreadful, overwhelming "where the hell do you even BEGIN?!?".

It's so big, it's so messy, it's so...I don't know.

Not comparing tragedies, or giving one more "importance" than the other. But all of NYC wasn't ruined on that day. There was refuge, there was food, water, a place to stay, etc. When those things are all missing - like New Orleans and Mississippi - I can't even imagine the level of despair and helplessness that has to be setting in.

They both are 100% horrible...just on different levels and in different ways. Some worse than the other, some not so much, etc.

Trust me...I still ache over 9/11.

[Kickaha]

I think the point 'Nut is trying to make is that it's not a racial issue, it's a *cultural* issue that happens to fall broadly along skin color lines for historical reasons. There's a difference.

[The Return of the 'nut]

I think the point 'Nut is trying to make is that it's not a racial issue, it's a *cultural* issue that happens to fall along skin color lines. There's a difference.

thanks, that's exactly what I'm trying to express but wasn't able to do so as straightforwardly

[The Return of the 'nut]

I just don't understand the delay in rescuing, and evacuation and resolving problems.

The US gov't has the resourses to do this faster. I really just don't get it.

They should be dumping baskets of food via helicopter.
They should be using every helicopter they can get their hands on to fly people out and fly soldiers in.
They should do everything in their power to get New Orleans Intl Airport open and more accessible for evacuating and supply delivery. They should be dumping every bit of dirt, concrete, sand, etc they can get into these levee breaks/canals.

It baffles me how they can not get food to people most of all.

[DMBand0026]

I just don't understand the delay in rescuing, and evacuation and resolving problems.

The US gov't has the resourses to do this faster. I really just don't get it.

They should be dumping baskets of food via helicopter.
They should be using every helicopter they can get their hands on to fly people out and fly soldiers in.
They should do everything in their power to get New Orleans Intl Airport open and more accessible for evacuating and supply delivery. They should be dumping every bit of dirt, concrete, sand, etc they can get into these levee breaks/canals.

It baffles me how they can not get food to people most of all.

The people who have guns will still have guns when the food is dropped. We need order, than the relief effort can start. I have no doubt that if they started dropping food, some in the city would be quick to try and establish themselves as "warlords." It's just not safe to drop food until you have those people under control. There would be a handful of people who would gun each other down for control of the food, and the one who won the gun battle would take all the food they could and than people would be no better off than they are now.

Again, the scum of the earth ruining things for everyone. There's potentially thousands of lives on the line here and a few scumbags are completely ruining things. Find them, shoot some, arrest others and than charge them with thousands of counts of murder.

They need order, than relief can really begin.

[torifile]

The people who have guns will still have guns when the food is dropped. We need order, than the relief effort can start. I have no doubt that if they started dropping food, some in the city would be quick to try and establish themselves as "warlords." It's just not safe to drop food until you have those people under control. There would be a handful of people who would gun each other down for control of the food, and the one who won the gun battle would take all the food they could and than people would be no better off than they are now.

Again, the scum of the earth ruining things for everyone. There's potentially thousands of lives on the line here and a few scumbags are completely ruining things. Find them, shoot some, arrest others and than charge them with thousands of counts of murder.

They need order, than relief can really begin.
Thank goodness we actually have a justice system to prevent people like you from shooting people you don't like. :rolleyes:

There's a method to justice and just shooting people ain't it, thankfully.

[Kickaha]

Um, this isn't justice. This is survival. Period. Justice is what you have when you can afford the luxury of time, personnel, and resources. None of which are in great supply down there right now.

These few asshats are causing other people to starve, dehydrate, and die. Perhaps you'd like to sit down with them over some crumpets and talk to them? :no:

[DMBand0026]

Thank goodness we actually have a justice system to prevent people like you from shooting people you don't like. :rolleyes:

There's a method to justice and just shooting people ain't it, thankfully.

I understand that Torifile, but where's the justice in people shooting at National Guardsmen? Where's the justice in people who need to be rescued not being rescued because some people have made the whole area so unsafe that the National Guard has stopped rescues for the time being? Where's the justice in thousands more people unnecessarily dying because some people have taken an already bad situation and made it worse.

I admit, my comments are inflammatory and some were made with more than a touch of anger in me, but I'm having a hard time with this whole situation. Those poor people down there are suffering, they're going through one of the, if not the worst event of their entire lives, and there's people down there who seem intent on doing nothing but making it worse.

I'm not shooting anyone, I just have no sympathy for those who want to take advantage of this situation. I have no sympathy for those who want to hurt others in a time when they should be coming together, because that's the only way they're going to survive.

[torifile]

Um, this isn't justice. This is survival. Period. Justice is what you have when you can afford the luxury of time, personnel, and resources. None of which are in great supply down there right now.

These few asshats are causing other people to starve, dehydrate, and die. Perhaps you'd like to sit down with them over some crumpets and talk to them? :no:
So, justice when it's convenient, then? Nice.

edit (to address DM's point): You can't throw our process of justice out just because someone isn't playing by the rules. If they were, it's wouldn't be a problem. I don't often agree with Bush, but he was right when he said that the terrorists would win if we abandon our way of life. Sure, we completely disagree about who "terrorists" are and what "our way of life" is, but the essence of that is pretty darned accurate.

[FFL]

If I was in the city, my home or business would have a sign warning potential looters that I'm-a gonna blow their ass off.

Those trapped in the city faced an increasingly lawless environment, as law enforcement agencies found themselves overwhelmed with widespread looting. Looters swarmed the Wal-mart on Tchoupitoulas Street, often bypassing the food and drink section to steal wide-screen TVs, jewelry, bicycles and computers. Watching the sordid display and shaking his head in disgust, one firefighter said of the scene: "It?s a f---- hurricane, what are you do with a basketball goal?"

Police regained control at about 3 p.m., after clearing the store with armed patrol. One shotgun-toting Third District detective described the looting as "ferocious."

"And it's going to get worse as the days progress," he said.

In Uptown, one the few areas that remained dry, a bearded man patrolled Oak Street near the boarded-up Maple Leaf Bar, a sawed-off shotgun slung over his shoulder. The owners of a hardware store sat in folding chairs,
pistols at the ready.

Uptown resident Keith Williams started his own security patrol, driving around in his Ford pickup with his newly purchased handgun. Earlier in the day,
Williams said he had seen the body of a gunshot victim near the corner of Leonidas and Hickory streets.

"What I want to know is why we don't have paratroopers with machine guns on every street," Williams said.

Like-minded Art Depodesta sat on the edge of a picnic table outside Cooter Brown's Bar, a chrome shotgun at his side loaded with red shells.

"They broke into the Shell station across the street," he said. "I walked over with my 12-gauge and shot a couple into the air."

The looters scattered, but soon after, another man appeared outside the bar in a pickup truck armed with a pistol and threatened Depodesta.

"I told him, 'Listen, I was in the Army and I will blow your ass off'," Depodesta said. "We've got enough trouble with the flood."

The man sped away.

"You know what sucks," Depodesta said. "The whole U.S. is looking at this city right now, and this is what they see."

In the Bywater, a supply store sported spray-painted signs reading "You Loot, I Shoot" and "You Bein Watched." A man seated nearby with a rifle in his
lap suggested it was no idle threat. At the Bywater studio of Dr. Bob, the artist known for handpainted "Be Nice or Leave" signs, a less fanciful
sentiment was painted on the wall: "Looters Will Be Shot. Dr. Bob."

[Kickaha]

Welcome to why civilization is important, torifile. You have that luxury.

NOLA is no longer civilized. It is anarchy. Innocent people are dying. Period.

What's your solution?

You have 48 hrs to get people water, reliably, before they start dying.

You are facing a segment of the population that is armed, and will attack you, and your relief efforts, and they *will* kill you, preventing you from helping everyone else, and then *they* die.

What's your solution?

I have no problem taking out a few people, who have put themselves into a position of acting outside the boundaries of civilized behaviour, so that thousands of innocents can live. There really isn't any ethical dilemma in my mind.

[torifile]

Welcome to why civilization is important, torifile. You have that luxury.

NOLA is no longer civilized. It is anarchy. Innocent people are dying. Period.

What's your solution?

You have 48 hrs to get people water, reliably, before they start dying.

You are facing a segment of the population that is armed, and will attack you, and your relief efforts, and they *will* kill you, preventing you from helping everyone else, and then *they* die.

What's your solution?
Obviously it's to withhold food and water from people because it's not safe to drop it off. I mean, the fact that the food is scarce isn't making it something to fight over, right?

If there were more supplies down there, like I know we have, there wouldn't be this power thing we're so sure will happen.

My solution would be to provide supplies and save people and not cease search and rescue operations because the police would rather deal with the looters. Make it a non-emergent situation and people will return to normal.

[DMBand0026]

I'm sorry Torifile, I just can't agree with you on this one. The fact is that there are people down there who are struggling to survive by no fault of their own. Than you have people who seem intent on making everything worse.

Why should we send our troops in to get shot at and possibly injured or even killed by people who are just there to make the situation worse? I'm not saying that we should throw justice out the window. However, you have to remember that those shooting at troops and cops have thrown justice by the wayside, so why not play hardball with them?

Sure, give them a chance, let them know what's in store for them if they don't clean up their act...fair is fair. Than start making arrests, those who are intent on continuing to aggravate an already bad situation, they've sealed their own fate as far as I'm concerned.

Call me intolerant, but I don't believe this is a time to be tolerant of such behavior as it's atrocious and extremely counterproductive. The exact opposite of what is needed at a time like this.

[Kickaha]

Right. So the people with the guns are just going to hand out the supplies to everyone else.

*YOU* would.

*I* would.

*THEY* won't. They've already demonstrated that they don't give a flying fuck about anyone else. Shooting at relief efforts?? Come *on*.

They have taken themselves outside the boundaries of civilization and decent human behaviour, and in my mind, have given up any right to be treated in any manner than in the way they have treated others.

[DMBand0026]

Right. So the people with the guns are just going to hand out the supplies to everyone else.

*YOU* would.

*I* would.

*THEY* won't. They've already demonstrated that they don't give a flying fuck about anyone else. Shooting at relief efforts?? Come *on*.

They have taken themselves outside the boundaries of civilization and decent human behaviour, and in my mind, have given up any right to be treated in any manner than in the way they have treated others.

I agree completely. There are rational people on this earth, there are certainly rational people in NOLA, but there are some who have crossed the line IMO. If we dropped off food now, the people with the guns would still be the people with the guns. Therefore, the people with the guns would have a shootout, more people would die, and eventually the people with the guns would end up the people with the guns and the food. They would establish themselves as the "warlords" of the region.

Problem not solved. Like I've been saying, establish order down there and than relief and rescue can start. The bottom line is that those people are preventing order from being established and have therefore made an already terrible and tragic situation worse for all involved.

[Kickaha]

My solution would be to provide supplies

How? You're being shot at. Drop them randomly? They won't get to the people who need them. You just wasted your resources, and gave the people on the ground something to shoot each other over.

Where are you going to provide these supplies? What's your plan for securing them, to prevent an armed mob from taking them for themselves? What's your plan for getting the supplies out to the people who are still trapped? What's your plan for securing *those* transport lines?

and save people

How? You can't get near them without being shot at.

and not cease search and rescue operations

And continue being shot at.

because the police would rather deal with the looters. Make it a non-emergent situation and people will return to normal.

Exactly *HOW* do you propose to make it a non-emergent situation? You haven't addressed that, you've just said to keep trying to throw resources at it.

Resources which are in short supply, and, I might add, include human lives.

There is a small contingent who have made themselves the problem. The resources needed to contain them using your methods (which I'm only guessing at, since you haven't exactly provided any solutions), are then taken away from rescue, relief, and recovery. Many innocent people suffer because of a few, who are essentially holding them hostage, and there's a clock ticking until they starve and dehydrate.

My god, if you had a hostage taker with a time bomb, who you couldn't communicate with, would you say that a sniper *wasn't* a rational response?? Or would you just keep waving your arms at them until it went off, and *everyone* died?

[torifile]

My god, if you had a hostage taker with a time bomb, who you couldn't communicate with, would you say that a sniper *wasn't* a rational response?? Or would you just keep waving your arms at them until it went off, and *everyone* died?


There are times when it's ok to use lethal force. Don't think that I don't believe that.

I would take the supplies in with troops. You know, the ones that should be over here taking care of our national security, rather than over in Iraq doing something else.

Yes, it would put troops in harm's way. But, you know what? That's what they DO. That's what they're for. Tell me that a truck full of soldiers handing out rations wouldn't calm the situation down. And if it doesn't THEN shoot. That's my solution. :)

[torifile]

I agree completely. There are rational people on this earth, there are certainly rational people in NOLA, but there are some who have crossed the line IMO. If we dropped off food now, the people with the guns would still be the people with the guns. Therefore, the people with the guns would have a shootout, more people would die, and eventually the people with the guns would end up the people with the guns and the food. They would establish themselves as the "warlords" of the region.

Problem not solved. Like I've been saying, establish order down there and than relief and rescue can start. The bottom line is that those people are preventing order from being established and have therefore made an already terrible and tragic situation worse for all involved.
How is it my solution not to shoot everyone on sight is equated with not establishing law and order? There are other ways, you know. And, again, it's a damn good thing we don't have summary executions. But that's what you're proposing.

[Kickaha]

There are times when it's ok to use lethal force. Don't think that I don't believe that.

Well at least there's that.

I would take the supplies in with troops. You know, the ones that should be over here taking care of our national security, rather than over in Iraq doing something else.

Oh brother.

Look, you can play the what-if and we-shouldda scenarios until doomsday, but it doesn't help the situation *now*. Given the *current* situation, with the resources *at hand*, what's your solution?

Yes, it would put troops in harm's way. But, you know what? That's what they DO. That's what they're for.

Ah, so you *do* subscribe to the soldiers-are-cannon-fodder-to-be-deployed-at-our-convenience theory then! I think living in a red state is starting to wear off on you. :p

Tell me that a truck full of soldiers handing out rations wouldn't calm the situation down. And if it doesn't THEN shoot. That's my solution. :)

"Men, I want you to go in and deliver relief goods to these poor folks... and oh yeah, you're going to be shot at, people are going to want to kill you, and you can't shoot back."

Bullpucky. If it requires troops, it requires live ammo and permission to shoot back. Pretty simple.

Nobody ever said to go in shooting anything that moves. Only to shoot the fuckers back. I can't see how anyone would have a problem with that.

[torifile]

"Men, I want you to go in and deliver relief goods to these poor folks... and oh yeah, you're going to be shot at, people are going to want to kill you, and you can't shoot back."

Bullpucky. If it requires troops, it requires live ammo and permission to shoot back. Pretty simple.

Nobody ever said to go in shooting anything that moves. Only to shoot the fuckers back. I can't see how anyone would have a problem with that.


I'm not sure where I said that the troops shouldn't shoot back if they're shot at. If I did, I'm crazy. I said we shouldn't just shoot people at will. If someone shoots at an officer/soldier, yes they should be shot. Not killed, mind you (if possible), but self-defense is always excusable.

My initial reaction to all this shooting business was the notion that you and DMB were proponents of the "shoot the outlaws" mentality. I'm of the "shoot the shooters" mindset. It sounds like we're almost in agreement there...

[pscates2.0]

Torifile, you're a total good egg, I've known you around these forums for a good while and I respect you. You're a fair-minded, educated guy, much smarter than I'll ever be, but I've never heard such a limp, ineffective and unrealistic "solution" in my life as the one you offer.

:(

It's all so wishful and "perfect scenario". Are you not aware of the situation?

No one here wants to be all "Dirty Harry" for giggles. It's not a video game, and I don't see anyone here being flippant or "light" about it. But step back and look at the situation. Your words seem a bit too "feel good" and surface because you're saying them without taking into account what's going on, so it's hard to buy into it.

- "Drop food". Well, no kidding. And then tell me what would happen (look to DMB and Kickaha's previous posts for an explanation). Can you not imagine those with guns and wanting to do violence overtaking it all, hoarding it for themselves? This is not even tricky or up for speculation.

- "Continue the rescues". Again, no kidding! But what good are rescuers out on boats or helicopters if they're getting shot at? Or actually shot? What good are bullet-riddled, beaten-to-a-pulp rescuer personnel going to be to anyone? I think the liklihood of "boat-jackings" isn't THAT far-fetched at this point.

:(

You're ignoring EVERYTHING real that's going on there.

:eek:

I refuse to accept that a small chunk of people can cause thousands of others - who are just as hungry, scared and worn down - to suffer further.

My gosh, this SO touches on everything I said here on Monday, about the whole "5% rule" (my numbers may be up for debate, but the underlying theory isn't).

Granted, this was pre-levee breach (and the ensuing flooding), but still.

All it takes is for a few brazen, ruthless people to not give a damn about anything but themselves. Either they weren't raised right or they grew up tough and hard and never learned the good things in life we all take for granted. The reasons don't really concern me now because those very people are, at this point, putting everyone at risk.

There are grandmothers and little babies in those crowds, torifile. They're going to fucking die a slow, miserable in front of our very eyes if the situation with the few violent, predatory thugs isn't addressed and handled.

Are you - is anyone - comfortable with that? I'm not. I never could be.

You say all the right, wonderful things. The things we ALL feel and believe, about getting food and water in, and rescuing others. I'm sure all these people who've gone to New Orleans to help rescue survivors aren't thrilled about being sidelined because of such a senseless reason. But you're just saying it, totally glossing over real, true dangers and reality.

This should've been put down DAYS ago, because now it's only more of them and they're only that much bolder and ballsy.

It's horrible. It's tragic. This whole situation is. But you're acting like, through no fault of their own, these folks are forced to be out there, acting like villains, thugs and animals.

They're hurting EVERYONE. After a point, torifile, they - by their own voluntary actions - remove themselves from considerations and graces that we'd extend to others.

I asked earlier today, how hard is it to NOT act like an asshole?

Can you imagine how many people would be sitting in the dry, air-conditioned Houston Astrodome right now, enjoying a warm meal with their families around them had these rescues and evacuations had't been stopped?

That's a crime. Hell, it's a SIN.

You do not propose a realistic, plausible solution that takes into account the very real and sad situations going on there.

People put themselves (the looters and gun-toters) into this position. They chose this route, while thousands of others did not. Why punish the innocent, suffering thousands...and why give unearned, undeserving power to those who've proven for a good 2-3 days that they're only going to be a roadblock to any further rescues, recoveries, services, evacuations, etc.?

If you had a legit, realistic and true proposal or idea that took all the above into account, I could see it and I probably wouldn't write such a long, forceful post.

I'm not laying in to you gratuitously, nor trying to take cheap shots. I hope you don't take it that way. But I do think your way of thinking is very unrealistic, and, frankly, dangerous. Your way, followed out to its logical conclusion results in this:

- Dead rescue personnel
- Assaulted civil engineers and repair personnel
- Assaulted and frightened (and possibly dead?) innocent civilians
- No one getting food or water
- People stranded on roofs for another 1-4 days
- No one evacuated to a nicer, safer Houston Astrodome
- Sick elderly evacuees dying in the Superdome
- Babies dehydrating
- The thugs and shitheads - through brute force - taking all the goodies, and leaving everyone else to suffer or die

I can't get behind ANY of those, brother man. I simply can't stomach the idea of thousands of good people needlessly suffering because of a barbaric, thoughtless few.

:(

[Kickaha]

I'm not sure where I said that the troops shouldn't shoot back if they're shot at. If I did, I'm crazy. I said we shouldn't just shoot people at will.

Which *I* never said. Not once. Go back and reread, what I said was that those shooting at relief personnel should be shot, killed, taken out with an RPG, *anything*, because they are endangering thousands of lives needlessly.

Anything else is whatever you read into it.

If someone shoots at an officer/soldier, yes they should be shot. Not killed, mind you (if possible), but self-defense is always excusable.

My initial reaction to all this shooting business was the notion that you and DMB were proponents of the "shoot the outlaws" mentality. I'm of the "shoot the shooters" mindset. It sounds like we're almost in agreement there...

Sounds like.

[Kickaha]

pscates, I want your manbabies.

[pscates2.0]

If we're going to be skittish on the whole "shooting people" thing, then the NEXT best thing is to send troops out in force (but I promise you they won't shoot first, but it'll come to a gunfight, mark my words) to round up and detain the troublemakers.

At this point, I'd be happy with that. But that will drag on for days.

You know, should the unthinkable have to happen (shooting people acting like assbags), the thing is, it probably wouldn't take much at all. Hell, it just might take a few to send a very clear, strong message.

I'd sacrifice 2-3 supreme shitheads for the health and safety of thousands, you bet. Would I "enjoy" it? Of course not. But I wouldn't stay up this evening, sobbing over it either.

I guess that makes me a...well, something bad, I guess.

:|

I just don't want to see innocent people dying on TV because we couldn't get them to Houston or get them off of their roof. That's what I care about.

We're all going to differ a bit on how to accomplish that, I guess.

:)

[Kickaha]

I'd sacrifice 2-3 supreme shitheads for the health and safety of thousands, you bet. Would I "enjoy" it? Of course not. But I wouldn't stay up this evening, sobbing over it either.

I guess that makes me a...well, something bad, I guess.

Saving thousands makes you a humanitarian.

Doing it in the only way possible makes you a realist.

Being a realist means that you might actually accomplish the first thing.

That's not bad, that's to be applauded.


Ideals are what give us something to strive for, and people who are willing to die for their own ideals have my respect, generally.

But people who would let *other* people die because it might trod on *their* ideals make me sick.

[pscates2.0]

pscates, I want your manbabies.

What's a manbaby?

[Kickaha]

Don't embarrass me, man. :D

[torifile]

scates, thanks for the respectful post. I totally get what you're saying and I may not be seeing the magnitude of the situation - I've been cutting back on my t.v. watching.

That said, is the situation as MadMax as you make it sound? I have a really really hard time believing it's gotten that bad. You really think that a truck full of soldiers handing out rations will be in danger? And that, if it were to come to a gunfight, it would last any longer than a few thugs being killed and the rest scared off?

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. But I'd rather maintain our principles - and possibly suffer a death or two - than give that up without trying it the "right" way first.

[pscates2.0]

scates, thanks for the respectful post. I totally get what you're saying and I may not be seeing the magnitude of the situation - I've been cutting back on my t.v. watching.

That said, is the situation as MadMax as you make it sound? I have a really really hard time believing it's gotten that bad. You really think that a truck full of soldiers handing out rations will be in danger? And that, if it were to come to a gunfight, it would last any longer than a few thugs being killed and the rest scared off?

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. But I'd rather maintain our principles - and possibly suffer a death or two - than give that up without trying it the "right" way first.

I'm not reading anything good, on that front. I never saw "Mad Max", but I'd imagine it's not good.

I'm not sure how the soldier/food thing would go. In theory, yeah...it should work wonderfully. But it seems that theories and "ideal scenarios" flew out the window around 5pm Tuesday.

:(

I guess it would depend on the desperation and tensions present? I mean, if folks are taking potshots at rescue helicopters, it's hard to imagine stuff that wouldn't happen, you know?

I expected looting and general mayhem. But I never imagined rescuers and people like that would be in physical danger. Not in a thousand years would I've imagined that situation. That is just so wrong - and sad - on so many levels...I can't even count that high.

I'm just afraid that Superdome is halfway to becoming a default morgue.

[LudwigVan]

From Reuters:

Nearly 5,000 National Guard troops were mobilized in Louisiana. The military said the number would rise to 21,000 by Friday and 30,000 in the next few days, mostly in Louisiana and Mississippi but also in storm-stricken parts of Alabama and Florida.

Whether this involves food drops or not, I don't know. The article (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N01475103.htm) doesn't say so.

[Kickaha]

Some on-the-ground coverage from an *insane* mofo who stayed behind to... maintain a data center. No job is worth that, IMO.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

Some excerpts (and remember, this guy is in a pretty safe building, with supplies):

He's only hearing bits and pieces. The people in the city are shooting at the police. They're upset that they're not getting help quickly enough. The fireman keep calling because they're under fire. He doesn't understand why the people are shooting at the rescuers. Here it is 5 days ago the Mayor said get out of town and nobody went and now they're pissed.

The National Guard was at the Hilton, but now the Hilton is evacuated. When they said the CBD was gonna get 6 feet of water, it seems like everyone evacuated.

He turned the corner onto Canal Street and it looked like a flea market. People breaking into every store, going to the neutral gound (median) and trading and selling everything.

They broke into Winn Dixie Monday Night. Do they steal food? No. Cigarettes and liquor. Store was a mess. All the meats were going to waste so the districts went over there to salvage food for officers. Many cops have been eating MREs.

The Iberville Housing Projects got pissed off because the police started to "shop" after they kicked out looters. Then they started shooting at cops. When the cops left, the looters looted everything. There's probably not a grocery left in this city.

Over 30 officers have quit over the last 3 days. Out of 160 officers in his district maybe 55 or 60 are working. He hasn't seen several since Sunday. HQ is closed, evacuated. No phones to contact them.

"HQ, be advised, we're going 10 7."

"Ok, y'all coming back on???"

"We don't know."
--------

3. Can confirm: The National Guard, FEMA, the NOPD, and City authorities DO NOT have the city under control. There are live radio feeds for the National Guard comms and NOPD comms which have been circulating the web, and you can listen to the chaos and disarray for yourselves. I am not going to post the links, but I'm sure others have and will. I doubt the government's ability to reestablish order without a full active duty military presence to crush the mob mentality. This of course will mean no civil rights and everyone being treated equally -- as a criminal. Rock | Hard Place.

-------------

3. Dead bodies everywhere: convention center, down camp street, all over.

4. National Guard shoving water off the backs of trucks. They're just pushing it off without stopping, people don't even know it's there at first -- they drop it on the side in debris, there's no sign or distribution point -- people are scared to go near it at first, because the drop points are guarded by troops or federal agents with assault rifles who don't let people come near them, which scares people off. It is a mess. When people actually get to the water, they are in such a rush to get it that one family left their small child behind and forget about him until Sig carried him back to the family.

-------------

In case anyone in national security is reading this, get the word to President Bush that we need the military in here NOW. The Active Duty Armed Forces. Mr. President, we are losing this city. I don't care what you're hearing on the news. The city is being lost. It is the law of the jungle down here. The command and control structure here is barely functioning. I'm not sure it's anyone's fault -- I'm not sure it could be any other way at this point. We need the kind of logistical support and infrastructure only the Active Duty military can provide. The hospitals are in dire straights. The police barely have any capabilities at this point. The National Guard is doing their best, but the situation is not being contained. I'm here to help in anyway I can, but my capabilities are limited and dropping. Please get the military here to maintain order before this city is lost.

--------------

The word is that in Jefferson Parish and Orleans, FEMA has "bugged out." They haven't brought supplies in.

THE REAL MILITARY IS NOW FLOWING IN. National Guard is being replaced before our eyes. Watch the feed.

Word is that the Marines are at 1515 Poydras where our OC4s are. I think we're coming back online in force shortly.

--------------

So yeah, it's pretty much Mad Max.

[pscates2.0]

Reading that honestly made me a tad quivery and nauseous. Law of the jungle and all.

I'm sure it is.

Mark my words (I've been right about every other damn thing that's happened this week and how some people are acting, so...), a Marine or other military personnel is going to be forced to shoot someone (who's shooting at them to begin with, mind you), and people are going to absoutely lose their minds. Big time. Just watch.

No, not the ones there (it might calm them down and set an example, sadly). I'm talking about all us safe, dry and removed ones. The "commentator/pundit" crowd.

I'm sure Hannity and Colmes are just counting the hours...they'd actually have something to fuel their idiot waste of a show for a good week or two.

Sean will be praising the action and gloating, while Alan wears a black armband in the victim's honor (and still have his glasses on crooked).

:rolleyes:

[709]

No problem. :)

As for your shooting prediction, I just read this over on CNN:

"We were coming in from a parking deck at Tulane Medical Center, and a guy in a white shirt started firing at us," Curiel said. "The National Guard (troops), wearing flak jackets, tried to get a bead on this guy. " I give it an hour.

[Kickaha]

And then the screaming about abuse of government will begin... and somehow it'll end up being blamed on Bush. *sigh* (I'm no fan of the man, but I don't think he's a reasonable scapegoat for *everything* in life.)

Then will come the predictable "They didn't do enough" "They did too much" screaming match, and we'll probably end up with all sorts of legislation brought forward by politicos looking to make a name for themselves about limiting when and how the forces of authority can use lethal force (even though we already have such guidelines on the books, thankyouverymuch)....

aiyiyi.

[Franz Josef]

America is a big country and we, regionally, like to take care of our own business up to the point that we cannot. It's not arrogance, it's just the way things work... it's the way things work around the world I imagine. We all like to take care of our business up until the point we can't - it's human nature.

So the levee system that failed? The system that was inadequate? It's been that way for as long as I can remember. For anyone to infer that one President's administration is to blame shows an ignorance of the city's history.I'm watching BBC news reporting as I type this and I'm struggling to avoid the view that what is happening in New Orleans is becoming a stain on the nation. The BBC isn't known for sensationalist reporting. The comments are of unrestrained looting, lawlessness, complete lack of co-ordination of response, utter lack of support services in most areas, people quite literally starving and without drinking water.

The BBC is comparing this to the Tsunami and talking of people running amok in lawless shanty towns. The federal government is being blamed for doing very little now and for starting much too late. This isn't anti-Americanism - there is genuine shock and horror in the UK that one of the richest nations on earth seems to be failing its people so grievously.

I truly hope this can be turned around soon and quickly but the view is fast gathering ground that the administrations - both locally and in Washington - are just letting citizens hang out to dry. :no: This isn't party politics - governments of all shades have a responsibility to their people. I'm sorry to be witnessing this.

[Kickaha]

holy crud.

I agree that the response has been... slow. No doubt about that. IMO they should have *led* with the military, but I also would point out that even I, as resident curmudgeon, didn't think it'd be *necessary*. I had this naive hope that people in an industrialized nation would be... smarter than this.

Well guess what, we're not. People are people, the world over. Disaster == anarchy, and that's just the way it is. When was the last time we've had something of this magnitude happen in the US? 9/11? Small potatoes compared to this. (Talking about the spread of devastation, not the emotional impact.)

I suspect that many people never *dreamed* that US citizens would fire on relief efforts personnel... and that has been a hard slap in the face. It's also delayed the relief effort tremendously. Without that, I think this would have been much more cleanly done - as it is, it caused a massive pullback and rethinking of how to approach the situation.

If this had happened anywhere else, the relief efforts would have been sent in with the military, as anticipation of such problems. I think there was a naive assumption that it wouldn't be needed here, so it wasn't mobilized. Now they're playing catch-up.

[autodata]

Just around the convention center there are people dying, bodies rotting, no food or water. There's no security and normal, civil people are helpless. It's horrible.

Those of you who can watch the msnbc video here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/) should.

That this is going on in the United States is unbelievable.

[thegelding]

i also think the fact that things got worse a day or so later added to the delay...initially people thought, ok, NO is bad, but MS is much worse...lets look over there for a while because NO can take care of itself...then the levys broke and NO is fucked and people still were thinking, NO missd the big part of the storm and will be ok...then, shit, NO isn't ok and ....

still think NO should be scraped...no way to protect it...if they rebuild, what would stop a terrrorist from bombing some levys and flooding the whole city again??

either scrape it or turn it into venice, italy american style and let the water level be it's natural height

g

[naren]

Living in a river flood plain means living behind a levee, It like that all over. I live behind one myself. It's overly simplistic to suggest that because a city is below the high water level that it shouldn't exist. The Dutch don't seem to have any problem living this way do they?

[The Return of the 'nut]

Living in a river flood plain means living behind a levee, It like that all over. I live behind one myself. It's overly simplistic to suggest that because a city is below the high water level that it shouldn't exist. The Dutch don't seem to have any problem living this way do they?

when was the last hurricane that hit the Dutch?

[naren]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Flood_of_1953

Although technically not a hurricane as it didn't start in the tropics. Northern Europe's extratropical cyclones are often equivalent in force to Caribbean Hurricanes.

[The Return of the 'nut]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Flood_of_1953

Although technically not a hurricane as it didn't start in the tropics. Northern Europe's extratropical cyclones are often equivalent in force to Caribbean Hurricanes.

thanks, interesting.

although that seems to suggest the Dutch DO have troubles living like that

[pscates2.0]

I just got home. I'm actually a bit afraid to turn on the TV...I'm just gonna get sad or mad, huh?

:o

Maybe I'll just pour a glass of something brown and soothing, pop in my "Willy Wonka" or "American Graffiti" DVD, kick off my shoes and reach for my guitar...

[LudwigVan]

You're better off. It seems that, from what little TV news I've seen in the past couple of days, they're just recycling a lot of the same images and sound bites over and over again. Like living a bad recurring nightmare.

Might as well take the night to recharge your batteries.

[The Return of the 'nut]

how can harry connick jr get into canal street and bourbon street and out so easily?

The FEMA director was just on CNN. I don't know whether to be angry at him or feel sorry for him. It's hard to tell what the truth is.

It's very easy for the news and tv to exagerate things and sensationalize, however, this is a rare case where I think it's impossible for tv to even portray the severity of the situation.

[Naderfan]

I've been getting all my news from various online newspapers (I have to say that even though I'm extremely biased towards newspapers, they do an excellent job most of the time giving you a broader picture) and it makes me tear up every time.

I cannot even begin to imagine what these people are going through. If I were in the Superdome, I would completely lose my mind. I read somewhere (an editorial) about how we as Americans have the mindset that we can overcome anything. We see disasters elsewhere in the world and think: "Wow, that's bad" and we usually help quite a bit but never imagine that anything like that could happen here. it was kind of a mix tone of pride and "man, are we naive or what?"

As far as these soul-less creatures who are attacking the rescue operations, I say to hell with them. How dare they? What can they possibly be thinking?? This isn't going to help matters in any way. It scares me to read that people looting Wal-Mart and other stores are taking guns and ammo. And it starts a vicious cycle of people stealing guns to protect themselves from the psychos who already stole them.

It must be so scary to not know what you're going to do. Even for the people who got out, the prospect of not being able to go home, or not having a home to go back to, must be devestating.

[Moogs]

The news media is starting to piss me off. The only station I've seen that's trying to tell all sides of the story is MSNBC / Keith Olberman. CNN is becoming a fucking joke (aka "Your Hurricane Headquarters!"). Hurricane headquarters?

FUCK YOU TURNER, and your merry band of ratings-happy producers who are now going from normal reporting the day after the storm, to reporting with drama. Fuckheads.

[DMBand0026]

Wow Moogs, those images are breathtaking. Amazing.

In other news (sure to aggravate the masses) my friend brought this to my attention just now...some are blaming the homosexuals (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46076). :no:

Edit: Link fixed.

I hesitated to post this as I'm sure it's going to piss some people off, so remember these two things kids: Don't post when you're angry, and if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

After my friend IMd me the link to the article, I read it, and IMd him back saying, "that was the most ridiculous thing I've ever read." He laughed, but the more I talked to him the more it became apparent that he believed what the article said. I was dumbfounded. Very few times in my life have I read something so utterly horrid and ridiculous.

Those who were quoted in the article basically said that NOLA got what was coming to them. I've very rarely been so seethed about something I've read. For people to say BS like that an call themselves Christians is beyond sickening. For people who are supposed to be the most tolerant, understanding, and patient people on earth, they're sure intolerant, ignorant, and impatient people.

I proudly call myself a Christian, but please don't lump me in with those people...the ones who say things like are in that article. I'm a kind and compassionate person who is accepting of everyone. I think that's what a Christian should be. It saddens me that this will just push the religious and the non religious farther apart.

[Kickaha]

Your link points to an image.

I think you meant to point to the "God Hates Fags" piece of shit of humanity that somehow manages to pull Jedi mind tricks on the weak willed and spineless.

[DMBand0026]

Woops, I was looking at the satellite images of the area and I must have copied from the wrong window. :o

Link fixed.

[Kickaha]

Yeah, here's his original terrorism-inciting rant: http://www.godhatesfags.com/featured/20050831_thank-god-for-katrina.html

Edit: Whoops, sorry, wrong psycho. I guess the vultures are coming out of the woodwork.

[DMBand0026]

Yeah, here's his original terrorism-inciting rant: http://www.godhatesfags.com/featured/20050831_thank-god-for-katrina.html

I've officially lost a little bit more faith in humanity after reading what that ignorant pile of trash sorry excuse for a man has to say.

Absolutely unbelievable. :no:

[Franz Josef]

Yeah, here's his original terrorism-inciting rant: http://www.godhatesfags.com/featured/20050831_thank-god-for-katrina.html

Edit: Whoops, sorry, wrong psycho. I guess the vultures are coming out of the woodwork.That at least seems psycho - it's this one that disturbs me more: In other news (sure to aggravate the masses) my friend brought this to my attention just now...some are blaming the homosexuals (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46076). :no: :no:

[Moogs]

Right, God tried to punish the homosexuals going to the gay pride convention, but somehow it's all poor people with families that ended up with the most horrific experience / lost all their homes. If God puts such things into motion, I don't think God misses that badly, eh? Or maybe God was saying to the poor people "shame on you for letting this gay pride event happen in your city; now I shall destroy you, too!"

I don't see a lot of gays with rainbow shirts and leather suspenders walking around -- they're all hanging out in the French Quarter apparently, having Baguettes and coffee. An old acquaintance of mine forwarded an email to me about the looting in Baton Rouge and one of the comments was basically "oh dear, this reminds me so much of the end times."

I wrote back that people should be figuring out ways to help instead of looking for signs of the end-times so they can sit there with their arms folded and say "I told ya so". I just don't get people sometimes.... :rolleyes: It's like they want it to happen so they can say they are right.

[Brad]

Right, God tried to punish the homosexuals going to the gay pride convention, but somehow it's all poor people with families that ended up with the most horrific experience / lost all their homes. If God puts such things into motion, I don't think God misses that badly, eh?Well, this is supposedly the same god that flooded the entire planet, killing everyone except for a single family. So, I guess it's not so improbable for the "true" believers.

[BarracksSi]

If God puts such things into motion, I don't think God misses that badly, eh?
Oh, but God is infallible!

:lol: :lol: :lol: bwa-ha-ha-ha-HAH

[pscates2.0]

I agree. But you know, it's kinda hard to "help" when you're getting shot at, verbally threatened and physically assaulted.

:(

I'm sure all those rescue volunteers who made their way down there were NOT expecting that kind of welcome.

I have to say, this is the most unorganized, unfocused, piss-poor example I've EVER seen of post-disaster mobilization. Everything that can be done wrong or bad seems to have been tried.

:confused:

It's just weird that I can walk into a local sandwich shop here in town, open my PowerBook and get online...buying music with one hand, eating a sandwich with the other. But with all the resources supposedly available, they can't get food and water to people going on their third or fourth day without?

Honestly...WTF?

This violence and looting should've been put down - by whatever means necessary - the FIRST night. Imagine how much further along things could be. Beyond that simple fact, there doesn't really seem to be an organized, focused effort. No leadership. And I hear police are quitting.

I have a slight "in" with a person I know at a radio station, who has a brother down there in the rescue efforts (I've not spoken to him in 3-4 days because he's been busy and I didn't want to bug him about his brother's status). Talked to him early this morning, and they spoke late last night and the brother who's down there said it's worse than he ever could've imagined...in every possible way. No control, no order. Reports of rapes and assaults. People lying around some areas with gunshot wounds. Dead bodies in the water, bloated and discolored. He had a gun pulled on him twice since Tuesday afternoon, etc. He said he doesn't know quite what the hell he's doing there anymore.

Needless to say, the brother who is up here is now really sad and worried. And, yes, angry. He has to worry every minute of the day if his brother is going to be safe, while simply down there to DO HIS JOB. That was a sad conversation this morning.

:(

[curiousuburb]

Oh, but God is infallible!

:lol: :lol: :lol: bwa-ha-ha-ha-HAH
http://www.merch-bot.com/product_info.php?products_id=388&osCsid=6b6707242855766d1c7e33dc5c6de0a3

[scratt]

I am very disturbed at the level of violence...

Today on CNN they were talking about people grabbing girls and raping them.

Now I know these guys can get carried away on the new programs... But this was more than once on more than one news station that is was mentioned...

What ever happend to the spirit of these people that at a time like this they are still unable to pull together?

[BarracksSi]

Today on CNN they were talking about people grabbing girls and raping them.
That's called people being animals.

"Ooh, BarracksSi is making a racist comment!"

Whatever -- animals are animals, no matter what color they are or how little fur they have.

[Moogs]

[Tangent, not to go OT but just to let people know where I stand since I was commenting on the whole "God as punisher" angle of this...

...Barrack: not sure if your giving me shit or agreeing with me but just to clarify... in my 30-some years on this planet and a lot of critical thinking on it, I don't doubt that there is a higher power that played a part in everything we see around us. I just doubt the way that power is described in many parts of the Bible, Koran et al. I don't believe God is anything like a human being, in most respects but WTF do I know? I'm just guessing like everyone else (including Bible-thumpers). The difference is I can admit that I am guessing. ;)

Humans have such petty thinking sometimes. Applying needy human motives and ideals to a power or being or presence (whatever you want to call it) that created the big bang -because I cannot fathom why that one thing came to be in the vacuum of space- and by extension everything that flowed from it, is just infantile. In short, I don't think an intelligence like the one I'm describing, conjures up hurricanes and pushes them one direction or another to teach lessons.

Nature is random; it's chaos theory in practice. And while I believe ultimately there would be no weather and no earth and no solar system without the creation of the big bang (and whatever created it), I don't see us or anything beneath our feet or above our heads as a "discrete creation" that was here one minute, but not here the minute before. Things just don't work that way. Grand creations play out on grand time scales.]

Anyway to respond back onT, and comment on something Paul said:

I agree. But you know, it's kinda hard to "help" when you're getting shot at, verbally threatened and physically assaulted.

I agree with this in principle, but what I can't accept on face value is that it's all true just because the media dolts say it is. One minute we're hearing that there's all kinds of shooting and violence in the populated areas, a few hours later we hear from a photo-journalist who was standing in the middle of it all, that it wasn't violent at all. That the shootings are few and far between.

It's unfortunate because it leaves the rest of us unsure of exactly what they hell is going on / who to believe.

I have to say, this is the most unorganized, unfocused, piss-poor example I've EVER seen of post-disaster mobilization. Everything that can be done wrong or bad seems to have been tried.

So far I agree with you here. Regardless of why they pulled back in some areas, the overall effort is horribly disorganized it seems. I lay about 70% of the blame for that with the City of NO and the State of Louisiana for not having very specific contingency plans in place to deal with a levee breach.

And any politician - Bush or otherwise - who says it wasn't foreseeable is lying to themselves and to us. As has been pointed out, just a month or two before the storm hit there were stories circulating in the media about what might face NO this year (which has been predicted to be a very bad Hurricane season all along), if a bad storm caused a levee breach.

And further NO has known this was their single biggest danger for decades and have done nothing about it. No mayor, governor or state senator who was in office over the last 20 years or so escapes blame here. All of their inaction / complacency caused this IMHE.

[Brad]

That's called people being animals.

"Ooh, BarracksSi is making a racist comment!"
It should also be noted (again...) that NO has a disproportionately high poverty rate, unemployment rate, crime rate, and murder rate. So, it's really one of the worst places for a disaster like this to hit.

Race has nothing to do with it; why even mention it and risk starting flames? It's just a bunch of people that already have had a bad life. They're already at the breaking point and this hurricane has understandably sent many of them off the edge.

[pscates2.0]

moogs, it doesn't have to be "widespread" and "everyone's doing it". It only takes a few to instill that fear and dread into the rescuers. Or to make them reconsider their efforts. There's that unknown.

Yeah, I don't think it's quite Dodge City (yet), but it doesn't have to be, to set a particular tone or vibe that ripples out and affects everything else.

Rescue personnel and others aren't going to send their men out if there's that unknown or liklihood they're going to be targets.

And believe me, I'm all about how the 24/7 news networks torque everything up, but I'm not going solely on them (you'd be crazy to). As I said about, my buddy's brother is right in the thick of it, and he's got no reason to lie. He wouldn't lie or exaggerate to his brother (and needlessly worry him...if anything, he'd try to make it sound BETTER, so his brother wouldn't worry, you know?). But he just said flat-out that it's a lawless crap hole and there's no help or order present. Not in the levels that he'd expect by now.

[The Return of the 'nut]

Bush is listening to complaints now.

Unfortunately he just gives me the impression that he doesn't understand the scope

[autodata]

Rescue personnel and others aren't going to send their men out if there's that unknown or liklihood they're going to be targets.
The whole reason we have these organizations is so we have people willing to risk their lives so ordinary citizens aren't dying and rotting in the streets of major cities.

[scratt]

The whole reason we have these organizations is so we have people willing to risk their lives so ordinary citizens aren't dying and rotting in the streets of major cities.

I think being shot at by your own citizens. You know, the ones you have gone in to help is reason enough for people not to want to go in....

[DMBand0026]

The whole reason we have these organizations is so we have people willing to risk their lives so ordinary citizens aren't dying and rotting in the streets of major cities.

Risking your life for rescue = going into a badly damaged city that's still full of floodwater and other such hazards in order to get people out

Risking your life for rescue isn't going into a badly damaged city that's still full of floodwater and other such hazards in order to get people out all the while being shot at and verbally and physically accosted.

That's just not right. Bring in the national guard and quell the lawlessness, than the real rescues can begin for the people who deserve to be rescued.


Edit: Apparently AppleNova doesn't recognize the "not equal to" character.

[pscates2.0]

The whole reason we have these organizations is so we have people willing to risk their lives so ordinary citizens aren't dying and rotting in the streets of major cities.

That's ridiculous, autodata. Come on.

When we hear of rescue personnel "risking their lives", it's from those natural elements and things that they're trained to deal with or accept as part of the gig (flood waters, fires, collapsed structures, mudslides, avalanches, mountain rescues, etc.). Those are things that can be trained for, expected, special equipment provided, etc.

In fact, rescuers don't always rush right into the above situations either, until they're safer or somewhat secured. Same applies here, I'd imagine.

I don't think you can honestly ask any rescuer if "getting shot at by hoodlums for no good reason whatsoever" falls into that kind of category. That's not what they do. They shouldn't HAVE to. They're not soldiers, and I doubt "dodging - and possibly taking - bullets" is part of their training regimen.

:rolleyes:

People don't go into that line of work looking to get SHOT AT. They're the good guys, the ones everyone (everyone who isn't a complete shithead or wingnut) wants to see coming in situations like this! The other stuff is what the police, National Guard and the like are for...and they've not done that part worth a damn, obviously.

Besides all that, what good are they going to do others (you know, the people they're trying to SAVE?) if they're shot or assaulted? And why - let's just cut to it, how about - are THESE people (the brave, dedicated rescuers) having to even put up with this nonsense at all? It's disgusting and whoever's giving them a hard time is the lowest of the low.

I can see people being mad and uptight. Be mad at the mayor. Be mad at Bush if it makes you feel better. But lashing out at the very people who dedicate their lives to helping and saving others?

That's completely insane, and there's no excuse on the face of the planet that is going to make that somehow make sense to me.

:err:

[The Return of the 'nut]

Risking your life for rescue = going into a badly damaged city that's still full of floodwater and other such hazards in order to get people out

Risking your life for rescue ? going into a badly damaged city that's still full of floodwater and other such hazards in order to get people out all the while being shot at and verbally and physically accosted.

That's just not right. Bring in the national guard and quell the lawlessness, than the real rescues can begin for the people who deserve to be rescued.

as much as it isn't right (I probably wouldn't go in), everyday rescue workers risk their lives. It goes with the job.

In 9/11 firefighters marched into the 2nd tower after the 1st tower had already collasped and knew they had a good chance of never coming out of the 2nd. But they did it to save lives, since it's their job.

It's not something that everyone can do, and it's certainly not easy, but it is a part of the job. But I can also understand them not wanting to go back in. To be shot at by the people you are trying to rescue is just bizarre



Well, Bush's "briefing" is over. I can't believe it. 5 days into this, it's getting worse, and he makes a purely political "briefing" full of thank yous and compliments with little substance and no directive

[DMBand0026]

In 9/11 firefighters marched into the 2nd tower after the 1st tower had already collasped and knew they had a good chance of never coming out of the 2nd. But they did it to save lives, since it's their job.

It's not something that everyone can do, and it's certainly not easy, but it is a part of the job. But I can also understand them not wanting to go back in. To be shot at by the people you are trying to rescue is just bizarre

There's the difference 'Nut. The rescuers in NY that day knew the inherent danger of the activity was in the rescue itself. In NOLA the rescuers know the inherent danger of the activity is in the people being rescued. Huge difference.

I've gone into not so safe situations myself which were made unsafe by the very environment I was in, but I avoid (per department rules) putting myself in dangerous situations because the people in that situation make it dangerous.

[The Return of the 'nut]

oh definitely. i know there are major diifferences. but there is always going to be a risk, whether it is a buiilding collasping or getting shot at. It's hard to really say because CNN and the other media outlets make everything seem like it's happening in every instance and all over. But we really don't know. I'm kind of getting pissed that CNN keeps showing days old footage of people in distress. They are definitely trying to make it appear worse and worse by reusing the worse footage.

[autodata]

Besides all that, what good are they going to do others (you know, the people they're trying to SAVE?) if they're shot or assaulted?
Shot at. Meanwhile, bodies of civilians are rotting in the streets and civilians are being shot and killed. The job of these organizations is not to look out for their own safety first and the safety of civilians next. That's completely backwards. You have tens of thousands of people who can't protect themselves. No protection. And the people who do have protection, the people whose job it is to deal with these kinds of issues, are the ones everyone is concerned about. That's completely nuts.

The message they've sent is that dying citizens in a major city with no food or water aren't worth it. We don't have the luxury of picking the circumstances of a disaster. That's kind of the point.

[The Return of the 'nut]

http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2005/09/02/wwl.nagin.intv.affl


there is the truth of this whole ordeal

[FFL]

Well, Bush's "briefing" is over. I can't believe it. 5 days into this, it's getting worse, and he makes a purely political "briefing" full of thank yous and compliments with little substance and no directiveyeah, that was pretty sad, wasn't it?

And, all the sunshiny platitudes about we-will-rebuild-it-and-it-will-be-better... it's like he still has no concept of people STILL in attics and on rooftops waiting for rescue, or starving & dehydrated and scared as hell while massed in with tens of thousands of fellow victims.

His routine of fielding lobbed softball questions while ignoring the fastballs and preaching-to-the-choir speeches full of feel-good rhetoric may have left him simply unable to handle the current ugly reality.

I am desperately hoping that his scheduled meeting with Mayor Ray Nagin (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.nagin/) will be live on-camera.

[DMBand0026]

http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2005/09/02/wwl.nagin.intv.affl


there is the truth of this whole ordeal

Video no worky for me. :\

Anyone else have a message pop up saying "Cannot play back the file. The file format is invalid." or am I just missing a codec?

[BarracksSi]

Race has nothing to do with it; why even mention it and risk starting flames?
That's why I put a general quote in my post -- because as soon as anyone says the word "animals", other people are immediately going to think that it's an anti-black comment.

My post was clarifying that I think these people are behaving like animals. I don't care about their race, and I really hate it when they blame their background. Who we are today has NOTHING to do with who we let ourselves become yesterday. Every day is a brand new start, right?

Too many people look for excuses to run around like jackasses, looting & raping & killing. "Hey, I can't help it, I was kept down my whole life!" they say. Boo-freakin'-hoo. :no:

As I said, animalistic behavior is animalistic behavior -- I don't care who it is.

[autodata]

Video no worky for me. :\
You can get it through one of these links (http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/02/uncensored_audio_of_.html). It's just audio

[The Return of the 'nut]

Video no worky for me. :\

Anyone else have a message pop up saying "Cannot play back the file. The file format is invalid." or am I just missing a codec?


I think its Windows Media but I have Flip4Mac so it works in Quicktime


EVERYONE NEEDS TO WATCH THAT VIDEO! This man is speaking from his heart. And has a grasp of reality. He's telling it like it is and it will give you chills near the end. He rips into Bush and everyone else. It is heartwrenching

[BarracksSi]

The job of these organizations is not to look out for their own safety first and the safety of civilians next. That's completely backwards.
Nope --

There won't be anybody around to keep the civilians safe if the rescuers are getting shot at.

First things first -- make sure the rescuers are safe (they've effectively become the main water, transportation, and food source; pretty stupid to go after them, isn't it?), and then they'll be able to help everyone else.

[DMBand0026]

Shot at. Meanwhile, bodies of civilians are rotting in the streets and civilians are being shot and killed. The job of these organizations is not to look out for their own safety first and the safety of civilians next. That's completely backwards. You have tens of thousands of people who can't protect themselves. No protection. And the people who do have protection, the people whose job it is to deal with these kinds of issues, are the ones everyone is concerned about. That's completely nuts.

The message they've sent is that dying citizens in a major city with no food or water aren't worth it. We don't have the luxury of picking the circumstances of a disaster. That's kind of the point.

Actually Autodata, sorry to say, but you have it completely backwards. You say that "The job of these organizations is not to look out for their own safety first and the safety of civilians next." That's incorrect.

I know it may come as a shock to you and others, but when a rescuer goes into a situation that is dangerous to himself, he's looking out for himself first. Yes, there are exceptions to that rule, but they are few and far between. The last time that happened in a large scale was 9/11, and that was a different situation.

Yes, I'll go into a burning building to save someone I don't know, but no, I won't go into a situation to save someone where I'm going to be shot at while trying to save them.

It may seem selfish to you, but what happens when all the rescuers are injured? Who will rescue the rescuers. Rule #1: Don't become a victim yourself because all that's doing is creating another person to be rescued.

Yes, there's large amounts of selflessness shown on the part of the rescuers and you had better believe that they would be in there in a heartbeat if there weren't people out there shooting at them. Danger because of conditions is one thing, but danger because of people is another thing entirely.

[FFL]

Plus, it's delivered with an excellent Noo Awlins accent. Safari no workee for me, but in Exploder I get the error message, hit OK, then the video (it's really just audio with a background screen) plays fine.

Like people were saying about Guiliani, we need another hundred like him, if not thousands.

[pscates2.0]

Oh, okay autodata. Shot at. So it's just luck, and hoping the thug is a piss-poor shot, I guess. That's comforting, and a great way to send brave, hard-working people into the mix.

:err:

We just disagree on this. I'm sure the rescuers would be jumping into waters, hanging from helicopters, etc. all day long if their only focus and concern was doing their job.

The law enforcement and military haven't done theirs well enough, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this little debate.

[autodata]

Bullshit, guys. ALL reports from the ground show that the police and national guard aren't even giving people the chance. The people are trying to work with them and turned away at gunpoint without even being heard. That's bullshit.

I know it may come as a shock to you and others
I understand you are a kid too young to drink who has been an emt for a year or so, but even though I am in higher ed, I come from a military family, do work for the heads of 3 international aid organizations and have close friends who have been cops and firefighters for a decade or more. My coworkers have recently been in parts of afghanistan that the military can't even go in. I'd honestly love to hear your input and reflections from experience, but I don't need some rookie emt talking down to me. You bring valuable insight to the discussion, so please try not to ruin it.
I won't go into a situation to save someone where I'm going to be shot at while trying to save them.
But somehow the reporters can go in there and none have been wounded. Only one national guardsman recieved a wound during a scuffle. We have video upon video showing people sitting around waiting for food and bodies rotting in the open. There is no excuse. While it might be lawless, there is an overreaction on the part of officials and people like you.

[The Return of the 'nut]

But somehow the reporters can go in there and none have been wounded. Only one national guardsman recieved a wound during a scuffle. We have video upon video showing people sitting around waiting for food and bodies rotting in the open. There is no excuse. While it might be lawless, there is an overreaction on the part of officials and people like you.

well said

[autodata]

The law enforcement and military haven't done theirs well enough, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this little debate.
I totally agree. The problem is that in this case, the law enforcement and military are also largely the people bringing in supplies.

[Franz Josef]

You can get it through one of these links (http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/02/uncensored_audio_of_.html). It's just audioAudio works for me in Safari.

Nagin's comments are the first sensible words I've heard from the administration since this thing began (and, yeah, the accent is great :) ) . And no offence to you guys, but Bush looks weak and out of touch by comparison. His popularity ratings deserve to plummet because of this. When the international press is berating your country because of the response to a natural disaster then this things goes way beyond Louisiana. :no:

[pscates2.0]

I get what you're saying (and I agree), but let's be clear on something: the "international press" is going to "berate Bush" if he simply wakes up in the morning.

:)

This situation simply gives them something legit and real to anchor to for a while.

[Franz Josef]

I get what you're saying (and I agree), but let's be clear on something: the "international press" is going to "berate Bush" if he simply wakes up in the morning.I'll grant you that. :)

[pscates2.0]

You know what's funny? I'm completely terrified to go over to the old place and have a look through their "Katrina and the aftermath" thread...

I know I'll just want to strangle about a dozen or so people, if I do.

:lol:

I'm not gonna go...not gonna go...lalala...not going...*whistles*

;)

[bassplayinMacFiend]

You know what's funny? I'm completely terrified to go over to the old place and have a look through their "Katrina and the aftermath" thread...

I know I'll just want to strangle about a dozen or so people, if I do.

:lol:

I'm not gonna go...not gonna go...lalala...not going...*whistles*

;)

C'mon, you know you wanna go. :)

*peer pressure peer pressure*

(Although you might wanna skip over NaplesX & dmz posts)

[torifile]

That's why I put a general quote in my post -- because as soon as anyone says the word "animals", other people are immediately going to think that it's an anti-black comment.

My post was clarifying that I think these people are behaving like animals. I don't care about their race, and I really hate it when they blame their background. Who we are today has NOTHING to do with who we let ourselves become yesterday. Every day is a brand new start, right?

Too many people look for excuses to run around like jackasses, looting & raping & killing. "Hey, I can't help it, I was kept down my whole life!" they say. Boo-freakin'-hoo. :no:

As I said, animalistic behavior is animalistic behavior -- I don't care who it is.
Dude that was the actual opposite of what happened with me. I thought "yeah, that's pretty much true." That it was (or wasn't) racist didn't even cross my mind until you said it. The statement was completely color-blind, until you said something about it. And the statement made you seem defensive...

[torifile]

Bullshit, guys. ALL reports from the ground show that the police and national guard aren't even giving people the chance. The people are trying to work with them and turned away at gunpoint without even being heard. That's bullshit.

I understand you are a kid too young to drink who has been an emt for a year or so, but even though I am in higher ed, I come from a military family, do work for the heads of 3 international aid organizations and have close friends who have been cops and firefighters for a decade or more. My coworkers have recently been in parts of afghanistan that the military can't even go in. I'd honestly love to hear your input and reflections from experience, but I don't need some rookie emt talking down to me. You bring valuable insight to the discussion, so please try not to ruin it.

But somehow the reporters can go in there and none have been wounded. Only one national guardsman recieved a wound during a scuffle. We have video upon video showing people sitting around waiting for food and bodies rotting in the open. There is no excuse. While it might be lawless, there is an overreaction on the part of officials and people like you.

This morning on the Today show, Harry Connick Jr. (who I have a new found respect for), was wandering the streets and seemed to be relatively safe.

He was incensed about the reports that there's mass chaos and raping and pillaging. He was like "they're taking LUGGAGE gimee a break... " (or something like that). He said that they need to drive trucks with food and water to at least the convention center where the TOLD people to go. That it was perfectly accessible and relatively safe to get there. He was confused and frustrated about why things haven't been done differently. But I'm going to take his word over the reports we're seeing about how dangerous and life-threatening it is to get to people... Something ain't quite right in Denmark, honestly...

[pscates2.0]

That's what I do too...when in doubt, take an entertainer's word!

:p

But seriously, that's great he was safe and all (I like the guy). But you can't be thinking that one small stroll with Harry (probably with some protection off camera, just in case?) is the end-all/be-all indicator? When you say "wandering the streets", does that mean "he strolled down half a block", OR did he go out into several different areas...including the bad parts? I'm doubting he did/was.

Was he walking alone? Or was he walking around people? Were people milling around, carrying on, etc.?

I'd be much more inclined to feel good about it all if they simply set him out - no camera, no protections, etc. (in other words, just like a regular joe out on his own) in the early evening, as the sun was setting, and maybe into those eastern neighborhoods.

He might be totally okay. Then again, he might have a hugely different story to tell in the morning?

Everyone okay with risking a singer to get the real scoop? Sure, why not.

:D

I'm sorry, torifile...I'm not going to take a thumbs-up from Harry Connick, Jr. as gospel. Or a necessarily accurate, dialed-in assessment of the city. He probably has no idea what's going on beyond where he was, and I'd expect him to passionately defend the reputation and honor of his beloved city.

Kinda like asking Phil Schiller to give a "hard-hitting", honest assessment of the iPod or Mac mini. Chances are, he's NOT going to delve into the battery woes, or the paltry graphics card, hard-to-open case, etc.

:p

[torifile]

I'm sorry, torifile...I'm not going to take a thumbs-up from Harry Connick, Jr. as gospel. Or a necessarily accurate, dialed-in assessment of the city. He probably has no idea what's going on beyond where he was, and I'd expect him to passionately defend the reputation and honor of his beloved city.

I'm not saying it's all fine and dandy by any stretch, but if there is ANY truth at all to what he's saying, why the hell isn't there something going to at least those people/parts? And if he's safe enough walking around with cameras and possibly and entourage, why wouldn't relief workers be safe with an armed escort??

[HOM]

That's what I do too...when in doubt, take an entertainer's word!

:p

But seriously, that's great he was safe and all (I like the guy). But you can't be thinking that one small stroll with Harry (probably with some protection off camera, just in case?) is the end-all/be-all indicator? When you say "wandering the streets", does that mean "he strolled down half a block", OR did he go out into several different areas...including the bad parts? I'm doubting he did/was.

Was he walking alone? Or was he walking around people? Were people milling around, carrying on, etc.?

From what I saw yesterday from MSNBC, Harry was the only authority figure at the convention center and he was helping to organize things down there. This was before any police/military or relief supplies had arrived.

[SKMDC]

I posted this in the national guard thread and it should be posted here as well.
A link (http://www.nola.com/washingaway/thebigone_1.html) to the first part (I haven't been able to track down the other parts*) of a 5 part special they did in 2002 on the effects a category 5 storm would have.
That scenario had the levee breached during the hurricane which would have made it far worse. But if you read this you would think it was written today and wasn't speaking in "what ifs" but what has happened.

*edit: the times picayune archive is down (for obvious reasons)

[The Return of the 'nut]

I'm not saying it's all fine and dandy by any stretch, but if there is ANY truth at all to what he's saying, why the hell isn't there something going to at least those people/parts? And if he's safe enough walking around with cameras and possibly and entourage, why wouldn't relief workers be safe with an armed escort??


One New Orleans police sergeant compared the situation to Somalia and said officers were outnumbered and outgunned by gangs in trucks.

"It's a war zone, and they're not treating it like one," he said, referring to the federal government. (Watch the video report on explosions and gunfire -- 2:12)

The officer hitched a ride to Baton Rouge Friday morning, after working 60 hours straight in the flooded city. He has not decided whether he will return.

He broke down in tears when he described the deaths of his fellow officers, saying many had drowned doing their jobs. Other officers have turned in their badges as the situation continues to deteriorate.

In one incident, the sergeant said gunmen fired rifles and AK-47s at the helicopters flying overhead.

He said he saw bodies riddled with bullet holes, and the top of one man's head completely shot off.

apparently it isn't as merry as harry connick jr would lead us to believe

[The Return of the 'nut]

CNN is retarded

Interviewing a woman now. The interviewer is on the phone with her and keeps trying to make her say its worse than it is. She's waiting in line for gas at a gas station outside of New Orleans. Says she is carrying a gun because she heard that there could be trouble and her husband wanted a gun and they are prepared and OH MY GOD, someone tried to cut the line for gas.

This is amazingly dumb.

[Moogs]

yeah, that was pretty sad, wasn't it?

And, all the sunshiny platitudes about we-will-rebuild-it-and-it-will-be-better... it's like he still has no concept of people STILL in attics and on rooftops waiting for rescue, or starving & dehydrated and scared as hell while massed in with tens of thousands of fellow victims.


Oh he has the concept... he is just emotionally detached from it. He is not deeply affected by this IMHO. You can tell by the look on his face and his gesturing when he speaks and his tone of voice. This is just another political obstacle for him where he has to deal with the media, not something that's keeping him awake at night. He doesn't look the slightest bit tired or weary or saddened as many other presidents have during long crises (Republicans included). You can't hide those things with make up, so....

He's on another planet IMHO, but that's another thread for another time. George your first year is running out. Report cards are coming buddy. I've held my mouth shut until now and I'll continue doing so until next January, so you have your 12 months to show me I was wrong about you. Hope you yank your head out and use this opportunity to do the same. I really do... :|

[torifile]

apparently it isn't as merry as harry connick jr would lead us to believe
I'm sure there are parts where it's completely chaotic and scary. I'm also sure that that's not true everywhere. They need to get in where they can to keep people from getting crazy, that's all I'm saying.

[Chinney]

Well certainly the fingers are out. It might be a bit early though, I think. I am far, far from being a fan of Pres. Bush – if any recall my long-ago posts on AO/AI, but it might be a good idea to wait on commenting on the political angle or linkages to larger social issues. It’s not that those issues aren’t relevant – they are very relevant, in the long term. They just don’t seem all that relevant right now, while people are still being pulled out of the muck.

The angry calls for action on the immediate rescue are urgently needed though and I am glad for them. And I am hopeful and praying that authorities are now getting a handle on the immediate rescue situation, although too late for some.

[Moogs]

The media was at it again a while ago when Secretary of State Rice was doing a briefing, basically asking her twice "Do you think the slow response from government agencies and others is because the poor people there are mostly black?" At that very moment I wanted to hand her an extra-dense nerf-bat so she could walk into the crowd of reporters and beat on the losers who asked that question.

Then of course, CNN has the side-video going where it's a cycle of about 8 clips with poor black people going crazy, then a white baby relaxing on a cot drinking from a bottle. :mad: Divisive Motherfuckers.

[Kickaha]

So... looking a few weeks/months down the road... what next?

NOLA: move to a new site? (Never gonna happen.) Rebuild where you are, and try and keep shoring up the levees and pumping systems? (Losing battle.)

Here's an idea for something that they have a *UNIQUE* opportunity for....

Fill it in.

Truck in a bazillion cubic yards of dirt and fill in the city up to an appropriate level. A couple of feet *above* the Lake would be a good start.

Face it, everything is going to have to be razed anyway in many areas. There's nothing left to recover. This is their *one* chance to do it right, so that they never have to worry about it again. It's a massive task, but a long-term cost-saver. NOLA is pretty unique in that very little of infrastructure is underground, so there's not much that would have to be moved that won't already have to be rebuilt.

Places like downtown can also be filled in 20-30' as needed. How? Look at Seattle. Downtown Seattle used to be a mud plain. In what was, at the time, the largest earthenworks in the US, they moved a hill next to town down into the downtown area, where there were already large buildings. They just knocked out new doors on the second or third floors, and used the lower two as basements. You can actually go tour Underground Seattle now, it's pretty neat.

This is really their one chance to fix it. If they can't fill in the entire city, then can at least fill in *some* and minimize the area at risk. Resources can then be concentrated on those areas in the future, but larger areas will be safe.

Who's got fill dirt to spare?

[The Return of the 'nut]

that's a pretty "outthere" proposal.

It would also result in the loss and demolition of much of New Orlean's historic architecture. Now, they may very well be lost now but we dont know yet.

There are better plans. But the important thing is that they dont rush to make the same mistakes.

It'll be interesting. It's a very unique task for city planners. Not much unlike SimCity after a disaster has struck and leveled all of your city.

[DMBand0026]

Although it seems that another hurricane hitting NOLA is unlikely, I think it's too big a risk to take. The way I see it they've got two options:

1. rebuild the same way, but have a better plan for next time and make the levees and pumps better

2. Go with one of Kickaha's plans. Fill it in with 20' of dirt or just relocate.


I think the latter of the two provides for more logistical issues, but seems the better of the two options. Given what we know now and the scale of the disaster going on down there it seems foolish to try and just hit the reset button.

You lose a battle once, you don't go in the second time with the same game-plan. Adapt, improvise, and overcome; that's the only way to beat this.

[Kickaha]

Well, the Historical District is pretty much untouched, it managed to get by pretty well, which is fantastic. I'm talking about filling in the areas with 80+% total devastation. Regions with tall buildings (downtown) are also a great place to think about doing it, since they offer the possibility of adding a new front at a higher level.

At the very least, it would minimize the areas under risk for next time. Think about the cost savings on levee production alone if the levees are reduced by even 50%. Then you've got the pumping systems which can be concentrated in a smaller area, etc, etc.

Heck, if it could be done in 1889 after the Seattle Fire (http://content.lib.washington.edu/seattle-fire/), it can be done in 2005 after Katrina. The scale is bigger, but we have a lot more efficient earthmovers.

I'll totally admit it's outta the box a bit, but if you have to rebuild major areas of the city more or less 100%, why not take some simple (but largescale) measures to ensure it doesn't happen again? This seems about as simple as you can get, and the long-term benefits would be huge.

I mean, if you can reduce the area of the city that is at risk by even 50%, then you can concentrate on making those areas that are left at the lower elevation *really* proofed to damage.

[Kickaha]

Although it seems that another hurricane hitting NOLA is unlikely

Um... over what time period? 5 years? Yeah.

250 years? Almost 100% certainty.

Unless you're expecting NOLA to go away after a few years, you have to accept that it WILL happen again, and plan accordingly.

[BuonRotto]

Remember that they've built airports that are the size of a small city on manmade islands off of Japan.

[FFL]

The Mississippi River moves tons of mud and silt past NOLA every day (every HOUR, actually, if not every minute...).

Just need a way to capture a little bit of that (a giant piece of cheesecloth?).

No need to truck ANY dirt in....

[billybobsky]

Kick's idea isn't so out there, I was proposing such an idea just a week ago.

It is easily forgotten that much of what we consider to be city scapes now were ones river filled undulating forests...

[curiousuburb]

Three words...

Giant. Bubble. Dome.

http://www.buckminster.info/Pics/Icosahedra/Icos-Dome-City-OldManRiver.jpg

[BlueRabbit]

They could also float the city. Considering how the Seattle area has the first (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_Point_Floating_Bridge), second (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_V._Murrow_Memorial_Bridge), third (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hood_Canal), and fifth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Lake_Washington_Bridge) longest floating bridges in the world, it can't be that hard to float a city, or even just a few buildings.

:p

[Kickaha]

BTW, my wife saw an interview with the photographer who captioned the AFP photos, the 'looter' and 'finder' ones. He said it was very simple - those pictures he took of people taking things out of stores, he captioned 'looters'. Those pictures he took of people picking things up out of the water as floated by were captioned 'finders'. He was very clear and unapologetic that he had specific well-formed criteria that were based solely on the subjects' actions, and that was it. It's hard to find fault with that.

[pscates2.0]

Holy cow...

I just woke up from a bit of an intense dream, where I was on an airplane that was making an emergency crash landing in Oklahoma. In the dream, throughout it in various places, it was Flight 333 (the carrier was never mentioned). But "flight 333" was mentioned/said a good five or so times. We're descending fast and we're going to land on a street (not even an airport) and I woke up after we made the first hit/bounce - tore down a traffic light...in the dream, we're pretty much all prepared to go up in flames, etc.)

:(

So, my eyes pop open and I'm on my left side, facing the wall. I can feel my heart beating REALLY fast and hard (still is, that's why I'm up) and I'm a bit sweaty, which is weird because the apartment is pretty cold.

I roll over to my right side, and look at my clock...

It's 3:33am.

Okay, I'm officially weirded out.

:)

Gonna pee and try to calm down from the dream.

Hee's where it connects to the topic of this thread: In the dream, I'm flying to talk to someone about "Katrina bears"...in the dream, before I get on the plane, I have this idea that all these kids left homeless from Katrina...what if they had a teddy bear? All of them. In the dream, the idea comes to me as I'm driving my car, and it just seemed to make a lot of sense. The little kids, who aren't that hardened to life yet and have nothing right now. Maybe a bear would be something they could use?

So now, it's 3:45 and I'm sitting here going "I don't come up with an idea like this while awake, all this week, only in a dream...in the dream, I crash on the way to meeting some toy manufacturer with my idea. But, I wake up and the clock in real life is the same exact number as my flight in the dream...333. How? Why? What are the chances?"

:p

So now I'm sitting here wondering "am I supposed to do this"? The ultimate "sign" and wake-up (literally) call?

:confused:

And no...I've not had a drop of beer or anything else. I went to bed a little after 11:00, stone sober.

:)

But I'll lay here until the sun comes up, mulling all this over, I'm sure...

Maybe I spend tomorrow writing letters to Mattel or whoever else makes stuffed animals and bears? Is that what all this is for?

Jeez-louise...

[BlueRabbit]

pscates, that's really really weird. That sounds like exactly the thing that happens at the beginning of those really sappy made-for-TV movies they show on the Lifetime channel. So, now that we've determined that your life is a bad movie, all you have to do now is write some letters to Mattel and whoever(333 letters? :p), get a movie made about you, get lots of royalties, and buy a dual 2.7 G5.

In other news, I woke up at 5:59 AM. I had a dream, but it was totally unrelated. Go figure.

Edit: Katrina Bears would be a fun name for a band.

[atomicbartbeans]

Fascinating, Scates. I guess I might as well tell my dream, although it was a little less profound...

I dreamed that school had started, and one day I was told to go down to the guidance office. My guidance counselor was there (in real life, he is an asshole who never does his job and only cares about the various teams he coaches). He said that I was "selected" to be part of an "exciting program" that had just started this year.

I was to be sent to "Remedial Jock School", due to my "observed athletic incompetence". He said "It is an intense 6-week summer program designed to bring your athletic abilities up to par with some of your more gifted classmates. You were selected due to your lack of participation and enthusiasm in Gym class, your tendency to stumble in stairwells, and your embarrassing record of zero enrollment in extra-curricular sports". I said to him "Well, I was never the athletic type, and I'd rather spend my time on more useful things, like school work. So, no thank you".

He replied "I'm sorry, but once you are enrolled in this program, you cannot opt out. Participation is mandatory for all students that are deemed athletically incompetent by the district staff".

I was speechless.

He continued, "It is a new school policy created to comply with the newest round of state mandates. If we do not send these kids to Remedial Jock School, then we lose valuable state grant money. I think you'll really like it once you get used to it. Think Gym class, but all day long! You, along with several of your classmates, should be honored to take part in such an exciting new program". He hands me a form to fill out.

I defended with "What kind of bullshit do you think this is? I'm a student here, and I'm here to learn, not to engage in pointless athletic games, especially during the summer. Sir, I respectfully ask that you take this form and shove it up your ass", I retorted without raising my voice, as I threw the form on his desk.

The rest was kind of a blur. :err:

[pscates2.0]

pscates, that's really really weird. That sounds like exactly the thing that happens at the beginning of those really sappy made-for-TV movies they show on the Lifetime channel. So, now that we've determined that your life is a bad movie, all you have to do now is write some letters to Mattel and whoever(333 letters? :p), get a movie made about you, get lots of royalties, and buy a dual 2.7 G5.

In other news, I woke up at 5:59 AM. I had a dream, but it was totally unrelated. Go figure.

Edit: Katrina Bears would be a fun name for a band.

Piss off, BlueRabbit. :)

I had an emotional, meaningful moment and you're comparing me to Cheryl Ladd or Patty Duke. Starring in "He Woke up at 3:33".

:p

And I wouldn't buy a G5 tower even if I had YOUR money, thanks.

[BlueRabbit]

Piss off, BlueRabbit. :)

I had an emotional, meaningful moment and you're comparing me to Cheryl Ladd or Patty Duke. Starring in "He Woke up at 3:33".

:p

And I wouldn't buy a G5 tower even if I had YOUR money, thanks.
Hey, you never know...this thing could all turn out like an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie, too. :p

Still, it's an interesting idea to send teddy bears to the displaced kids. I'd take a look around and see if you can do anything, or if someone else is already doing something similar.

[atomicbartbeans]

No offense, Scates, but couldn't they better make use of food/water?

[GSpotter]

I remember having heard about a similar (teddy bear) project after the tsunami disaster. It was probably this one (http://www.peacealliancefound.org/paf/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=63).Maybe you should ask them about their experiences.

[pscates2.0]

No offense, Scates, but couldn't they better make use of food/water?

Give me some credit, for crying out loud.

:err:

I'm not thinking NOW, for goodness sake! Of course food, water, medical care, clothing, etc. are all priorities right now. And those things are all being sent, on the way, rolling in, etc. I've contributed, monetarily and merchandise, to that aspect already.

I'm looking at a couple of months down the road, when the immediate shock and dismay has eased just a bit, and folks are going on their third or fourth month in a baseball stadium or shelter. It'll be creeping up on Christmas time too, and it might be something for them, the younger ones.

I don't think I ever made it sound like "OHMIGOSH, get the bears their NOW, Mr. President!!! COME ON, what are you people waiting for?!?! There are kids without toys!"

:rolleyes:

:D

But little kids (under 5 or 6) literally have nothing to hold onto. And they're not old enough, many of them, to probably fully process all this. All some of them know is that they had a life a certain way, then a day later it was all gone. Older kids and adults can work through it, realize what's happened, process it, etc. But can you imagine being three-years-old or so right now? Different needs and different approaches to all this, I'd imagine. Eventually.

But once things have stabilized in a few months, you're going to have some toddlers who are still wondering, in their own way, "what happened here, and who are all these people? And where's my stuff?"

[atomicbartbeans]

Point taken. :p

Here's an even better idea: teddy bears for the kids, iBooks for the teens and old people. :)

Now that would be the best publicity Apple has ever gotten. $20 million in iBooks is like pocket change for Uncle Steve, and you have the potential to make 20,000 lifetime Mac converts. :D

Now, you only need to get Comcast to provide free WiFi to the Astrodome, and you've instantly solved any riot/violence/theft problems there.

[The Return of the 'nut]

Point taken. :p

Here's an even better idea: teddy bears for the kids, iBooks for the teens and old people. :)

Now that would be the best publicity Apple has ever gotten. $20 million in iBooks is like pocket change for Uncle Steve, and you have the potential to make 20,000 lifetime Mac converts. :D

Now, you only need to get Comcast to provide free WiFi to the Astrodome, and you've instantly solved any riot/violence/theft problems there.

I think 20million dollars in the pockets of these people would go much further but I understand you were not being serious either

what you describe is something Microsoft would probably do. 90% discount for Windows Vista and Office for all hurricane victims

[The Return of the 'nut]

Shoot to Kill

Great. FoxNews reports NO Deputy Police Chief says police shot at 8 armed men on a bridge and 5 were killed. Great Deputy....you're doing a great job, why don't you brag about it..... oh wait, now CNN reports that those shot at where Army Corp of Engineer contractors and 5 of em are dead.

What dumbasses. Just when I thought things couldn't get worse and more embarrassing

[FFL]

nope, those reports are incorrect.
Police shot and killed at least five people Sunday after gunmen opened fire on contractors crossing a bridge to make levee repairs, The Associated Press reported.

Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley told AP that police shot at eight people who had guns, killing five or six.

The Army Corps of Engineers told AP that 14 contractors escorted by police were fired upon while crossing the Danziger Bridge, which spans a canal connecting Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River.

Corps spokesman John Hall told AP the contractors were on their way to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain to help fix a breech in the 17th Street Canal.

Initial AP reports had wrongly indicated that the contractors themselves were shot by police; no other details were immediately available.

[pscates2.0]

Good.

Good that they didn't shoot the good guys, and good that they did get the bad ones (anyone acting like this at this point - six days later - gets no wiggle room from me...you're officially an in-the-way shithead at this point, and whatever happens to you, you brought onto yourself).

:rolleyes:

Sorry if that bugs some of you.

Hopefully, however, this might send a slight message (as I said earlier in the week...doing this to a few people might make the others think twice...a fair trade-off, IMO).

[pscates2.0]

I know this makes me a horrible person, but this amused me:

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,16494464%5E1702,00.html

Poor guy couldn't seem to catch a break...didn't plug the drain hole and then couldn't get the motor to start.

The clincher, however, is the onboard "entourage" and personal photographer... :err:

Leaving little room, as one regular joe observer noted, for anyone to actually be rescued and brought onboard.

I applaud the effort and desire to help, don't get me wrong. But just strikes me as a typical cluster-f*** implementation, by someone who's probably never been in a boat his entire life and didn't really think things through perhaps.

Here's an idea: Sean, why don't you just appear on various pledge drives and do that surly, ultra serious thing you do so well, soliciting donations and pledges while you chain smoke and not smile?

Leave the actual rescue work, and boating, to trained professionals who don't bring along their personal photographer.

:\

[Kickaha]

Wow. I guess that finally unveils him to be the grandstanding, self-important twit I've always thought he was.

"I can do better than the rescue teams! I'm an ACTOR!"

Go home to LA and write a check, Sean.

[709]

Holy shit. Have you seen the video of Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard on Meet The Press yesterday?

Linky (http://www.zebrality.com/media/2005/aaron_broussard.mov).

Watch it all the way through. It literally left me with tears in my eyes. :(

[Kickaha]

Yeah. I saw that last night. It's... heartbreaking.

[thegelding]

eh, i bet s. pean wrote some checks also...kinda boneheaded i guess...but if he saved just one person, that is one more than i did...

g

as for the photo op...both sides are quite quite quite guilty of that

mission accomplished anyone?
flying overhead in airforce one?? that saved lots of people too

just to spread the blame

now back to the serious job ahead...we have 6000 people in our convention center here in albuquerque...my mom went to the dollar store and bought all the soap and washcloths they had and took them down...i just gave money, but her idea might be better

[Powerdoc]

Holy shit. Have you seen the video of Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard on Meet The Press yesterday?

Linky (http://www.zebrality.com/media/2005/aaron_broussard.mov).

Watch it all the way through. It literally left me with tears in my eyes. :(
I have also seen this video. It was heartbreaking, althought I did not get everything while he was crying.

[709]

Here's (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179790/) the transcript 'doc (Broussard starts about halfway down the page).

[FFL]

Wow. I guess that finally unveils him to be the grandstanding, self-important twit I've always thought he was.

"I can do better than the rescue teams! I'm an ACTOR!"

Go home to LA and write a check, Sean.
At least I haven't seen him holding a "goddamn press conference"* about it.
:)




*one of Mayor Nagin's best lines

[Powerdoc]

Thanks 709. This story is really heartbraking. It seems that there is an exception at your signature. This is really shocking

[billybobsky]

Reading the transcript of the Tim Russert interviews...

WTF is wrong with FEMA?

I mean, this is criminal negligance of a scale I don't think I can possibly deal with intellectually...

[torifile]

Michael Brown, head of FEMA, is grossly underqualified. That's what's wrong. :no:

[pscates2.0]

Have you guys seen this yet? :D

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/30864/cnn_weatherman_loses_his_cool/

I just saw it on "Talk Soup".

:confused:

Anyone see the live version of this?

What is it about being on CNN that makes otherwise normal people act like such feisty nimrods and pot-stirrers? Stewart, Novak, this guy...

Seems like every month or so, someone is on there acting like a complete ass on live TV. I guess ol' Ted's "style" filtered down over the years, and permeates everything and everyone?

:p

[Kickaha]

At least I haven't seen him holding a "goddamn press conference"* about it.

Oh yeah? (http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/showbiz/2005/09/05/obrien.penn.interivew.cnn)

And the attitudes really annoy me. The historian talks about 'someone needed to come down and document this, record it'. Um, how about lending a hand and saving some people first, ya intellectual snob? Oy.

And really... telling untrained people to come help is a recipe for disaster. Who coordinates? Who rescues them when *THEY* fuck up, eh Sean? What resources get allocated to them that might be better used by someone else? *sigh*

That being said, I'm still waiting for about 50 Zodiacs to just start making a house-to-house... still waiting... yup, still waiting... :p

[FFL]

Oh yeah? (http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/showbiz/2005/09/05/obrien.penn.interivew.cnn)
Yeah.
There's a big difference between calling a press conference, reading a prepared statement, taking questions, etc, and giving an interview with a CNN news crew that is right there onscene.

And the attitudes really annoy me. The historian talks about 'someone needed to come down and document this, record it'. Um, how about lending a hand and saving some people first, ya intellectual snob? Oy.
Isn't saving people what he was talking about, in the interview? Did you catch the part about Harry diving into the water and swimming to save a woman who was drowning trying to get to the boat?

By that rationale, I suppose every member of the media should put down their mikes and cameras and man a rescue boat instead, huh? :lol:

[scratt]

By that rationale, I suppose every member of the media should put down their mikes and cameras and man a rescue boat instead, huh? :lol:

Certainly more of them could use their resources to help a few poeple, rather than gawking.

I was very impressed with the Channel 7 crew from Australia that basically rescued their own countryman.

A lot more impressive than the freaks rolling around in the storm on the night of the hurricane shouting "It's so dangerous. DO NOT COME OUT HERE!!".

wtf? Wtf were they doing out there then, other than trying to get air time. Stupid f&%*wits.

[FFL]

It's a damn good thing they ARE there, otherwise there would be a lot more people believing the bullshit that the FEMA and DHS heads are spouting.

[scratt]

Agreed... But at a time of crisis like this perhaps a few of the networks could share, or rotate who actually provides the coverage on the ground, and lend out a few of those helicopters for other purposes...

To my mind it's a bit sick the amount of money that is going into providing this circus for the tv viewers, whilst dead bodies and dehydrated people are sat around as screen fodder...

[FFL]

The biggest shame of all that is that those who are paid with our tax money to provide and coordinate relief in a national disaster have been so grossly incompetent, and even outright counterproductive (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=823420#post823420), that we're even discussing whether or not civilians and media people should be rescuing people and gathering up dead bodies.

[The Return of the 'nut]

Agreed... But at a time of crisis like this perhaps a few of the networks could share, or rotate who actually provides the coverage on the ground, and lend out a few of those helicopters for other purposes...

To my mind it's a bit sick the amount of money that is going into providing this circus for the tv viewers, whilst dead bodies and dehydrated people are sat around as screen fodder...


news choppers are not suitable for the type of rescues being done. the last thing they need is to be responsible for killing someone or something.

[LudwigVan]

Have you guys seen this yet? :D

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/30864/cnn_weatherman_loses_his_cool/


I saw that on Fark the night it happened. It's understandable if the stress got to this guy after hours of reporting of the same damn thing all night.

He and the anchor supposedly tried to cover up the antagonism by joking about it a little later, though I doubt that was persuasive enough.

[pscates2.0]

I figured that was the case. But still... :err:

Just odd to see, from supposed "professionals", a true, object-throwing hissy-fit on live TV. You'd think he was on "Big Brother" or something.

[dfiler]

news choppers are not suitable for the type of rescues being done. the last thing they need is to be responsible for killing someone or something.Add on top of that... The New Orleans airspace was closed to all but a single news chopper. That's why we saw the same feed on every channel.

I can't believe the ammount of bitching about the media and celebrities here. Without their critical coverage of the response to this disaster, aid would have been even more slow in coming. Bush probably would have continued to hold short news conferences in washington to shake hands, raise relief funds, and congratulate everyone involved. Now that the media and celebrities have raised awareness, politicians are doing what they should have done in the first place.

[pscates2.0]

The government - while a bit lagging and unorganized, for reasons both legit and not - were getting there last week, way before the USS Spicoli set out on its maiden rescue voyage.

I'm sure it occurred to everyone that this is a major disaster. Doesn't take finger-wagging pundits and movie stars to make that known, or "fix the situtation".

They probably helped in some ways, I have no doubt. But I don't want to make it sound like there would still be 10 feet of water everywhere and an open levee if not for Harry Connick, Jr. and Paula Zahn...like people were just going to sit around DC and say "let 'em figure it out on their own...".

:err:

[Kickaha]

Media and celebrities raising awareness = needed.

Media and celebrities thinking they can play Rescue Squad when they aren't competent to do so, and just end up wasting resources better used to, I dunno, rescue people = asinine.

[dfiler]

Granted, some media and celebrities were playing rescue squad.

However, I wouldn't characterize their efforts as any more inept or counter-productive than that which was available from other sources. There are chumps in every sector.

On top of that, what are the news crews supposed to do when they are down there raising awareness? Tell victims: "Sorry, I can't rescue or help you. Somebody on the internet said it would be bad." I mean really. If I were down there for whatever reason, I would lend a hand when possible.

[Kickaha]

Er... dfiler, do you want the news crews reporting, or helping? I'm just getting a mixed message from you here.

On the one hand, the news crews are the only people qualified and set up to get the word out, to raise that necessary awareness. On the other hand, yeah, there are people dying around them.

But actors? Their qualifications are to be in front of a camera *someplace else*. That's what they're good at. If they want to help, they can pitch in with their money, which is going to do a hell of a lot more good than getting in the way. Their unique resources are immense wealth, and it will do more good than just one more pair of hands. Or, if they really do want to help hands-on, work with local forces. Go volunteer, don't try and set up your own half-assed squad (complete with personal photographer, mind you).

Sean Penn has really been bucking to be Bono II, but he just comes off as Bonehead.

[pscates2.0]

I wouldn't expect them to care what someone "on the Internet" is saying.

If it's a matter of helping someone out of a bit of a tight spot, or get them some water or transportation out of a dangerous area, that's one thing. No one here has said "don't do that!"

:confused:

But do those news choppers have the equipment (winches, baskets, experienced "snatchers", etc.) or the type of capabilities (and experienced pilots) to get into tough spots, dodging trees and power lines, to perform serious, complex rescues? Watching some of those Navy and Coast Guard choppers has been very moving and inspiring, seeing them wedge into places and drop those baskets with such precision. That's what they train for years and years to do.

No one here said the media couldn't help and do things, as they're able. I would too. Any of us would. But there are reasonable limits and expectations to what I'd expect.

On the truly bad or serious situations, I'd imagine the media immediately notifying a military chopper or water rescue squad.

How sad would it be if a news chopper tried to maneuver itself into a situation and wound up crashing, killing all onboard and/or the people on the roof below?

Everyone's doing everything they can, and they're going to mesh and criss-cross at times. That's a given. But different groups are trained and employed to do different things. Everything's a situation, and I'd expect the media to help if/when they can, of course. But not to needlessly endanger the people they're trying to help, or to cause bad things to happen because they bit off more than they could chew. That's all.

:(

[scratt]

But actors? Their qualifications are to be in front of a camera *someplace else*. That's what they're good at. If they want to help, they can pitch in with their money, which is going to do a hell of a lot more good than getting in the way. Their unique resources are immense wealth, and it will do more good than just one more pair of hands. Or, if they really do want to help hands-on, work with local forces. Go volunteer, don't try and set up your own half-assed squad (complete with personal photographer, mind you).

Sean Penn has really been bucking to be Bono II, but he just comes off as Bonehead.


Agreed... It all gets a little too close to bleeding heart self publicity at times....

[dfiler]

Er... dfiler, do you want the news crews reporting, or helping? I'm just getting a mixed message from you here.

On the one hand, the news crews are the only people qualified and set up to get the word out, to raise that necessary awareness. On the other hand, yeah, there are people dying around them.

But actors? Their qualifications are to be in front of a camera... [snip]Mixed messages? Helping and reporting aren't mutually exclusive. Why not be there to do both?

There is nothing wrong with celebrities using their fame as a tool for good. Celebrity granstanding can be quite beneficial. Certainly, not all of their efforts have been well motivated or effective. However, isn't' this also the case with the official aid agencies?

If we should be pointing fingers at anyone, it is at those responsible for the slow federal response.

[LudwigVan]

More than just the federal response was slow. There was confusion on all sides: the NO mayor's left hand didn't know what the Louisiana governor's right hand was doing, for example.

Fault can be spread about. For instance, there's some culpability I believe on the mayor's part regarding transporting people out of the city and school busses (http://www.freedomunderground.org/view.php?v=3&t=3&aid=19567).

[billybobsky]

The mayor cannot ship people to nowhere.

There needed to have been a multistate evacuation plan.

[dfiler]

Excellent point. That picture tells volumes... dozens of flooded and unused school buses. :confused:

I can understand your average joe not having foresight. But what about FEMA and DHS? Their entire job is to anticipate such disasters and to then provide aid afterword.

We all knew the hurricane was comming, a direct hit was predicted. Moderately intelligent people expected this exact situation and we just assumed that the government was on top of things. Apparently it wasn't. As more information comes in we'll know exactly where the system failed. My thinking is that a few key people completely dropped the ball.

One of these was our president. His first duty was to check on the welfare of these people and then to push things along where needed. The comander in chief should have made sure that the national guard was being called up as quickly as possible. He should have put leaders of various resources in touch with the organizations who could best distribute them. Now we find out that such coordination didn't commence until the blame game began? Sad. :(

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Seems like nothing really started happening until Ray Nagin gave his completely PO'd interview with WWL-AM radio. Once that happened, help starting really pouring in.

What I've been reading this morning disturbs me though. FEMA kept trucks filled with supplies from delivering food and water to victims for days. Seems that Wal-Mart had no problem whipping together 3 semis filled with food and water and dispatching them to LA, but they weren't allowed in for 4 days. That doesn't make sense to me.

[LudwigVan]

The mayor cannot ship people to nowhere.

There needed to have been a multistate evacuation plan.

This brings to mind something - does Florida have an evacuation plan with, say, Georgia? I wonder how may multistate evacuation plans there are out there (it wouldn't surprise me if there are "cooperative efforts" between states, but not necessarily in writing).

[709]

FEMA sucks.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[The Return of the 'nut]

This brings to mind something - does Florida have an evacuation plan with, say, Georgia? I wonder how may multistate evacuation plans there are out there (it wouldn't surprise me if there are "cooperative efforts" between states, but not necessarily in writing).

that's just more of the problem. bureacracy, plans, deals, agreements, paperwork...who gives a shit.

Why do we have no one with common sense in office and in lead of our nation and it's departments? It doesn't taburacraticke a genius to figure out what to do here and it also shouldn't take governmental procedures that take forever and are overly complicated just for the sake of being complicated. Act first and worry about what procedures and rank of power you broke later. This whole buracratic shit cost lives when if we had people who just pushed it all aside and wanted to get things done we'd have saved lives


It pisses me off to see people both democrat and republican accusing people of being responsible for the problems because they did not "fill out the paper work" or didn't sign this or that or didn't do some procedure earlier that would have granted federal authorities to take action. The solutions and responses should be obvious, the fact that we need politicians to do that kind of crap to get a response is ridiculous

[Kickaha]

Re: school busses. So, um, why weren't they used to do house-to-house and street-to-street evac of *everyone* who wanted to get to a safer place, and deposit everyone at the Superdome for later post-storm pickup? I agree that they may not have been able to get everyone out of state, but at *least* do a city sweep and gather folks up into central locations for faster evac later.

I still think that calling for a mandatory evac, and then just saying "Well, you're on your own" was a bad idea. <- city screwup

Then you have the Gov not doing the official request for federal assistance until Fri? Did I hear that right? <- state screwup

Then you have the FEMA/NG/Armed forces complete lack of coordination with each other, or local forces. <- fed screwup

People messed up from top to bottom, but part of the problem is that each level depends on the others, in both directions.

The feds are slower to mobilize, and aren't legally allowed to intervene unless the state requests help. They usually take 48-72 hrs to get a deployment into place, in a good case. (Which this wasn't.) They rely on regional forces to take up the slack until then.

Regional forces like the Guard take 24hrs to mobilize, in a good case, and again, this wasn't it. For those first 24 hrs, they assume the local forces will keep things moving.

The local forces are only expected to hold things together for a bit, then be relieved by the regional forces, who keep things together long enough for the federal forces to move in. It's a staggered response, and in most cases works great.

Except when the local forces are *completely* overwhelmed and are stuck waiting for the regional forces to come in... who are also overwhelmed. That leaves *just* the feds, and you've got that 48-72 hr window without aid. Add in screwups, and it just gets worse.

I'm willing to give FEMA a break on the first 2-3 days, since that's not when they're expected to be active anyway, but after that? Fustercluck.

What I'm seriously afraid of is that everyone will scream for increased federal assistance, when the *real* lesson to be learned here is "Don't count on someone else to save you." Increased *local* planning and assistance is what's needed. You can't just expect 'someone else' to come save your tuchas, or you end up with something like this - citizens waiting to be rescued by police who are waiting to be assisted by guardsmen who are waiting to be relieved by federal forces that can't get there fast enough to do any good.

What's that slogan? Think globally, act locally?