China and Taiwan, war?

[Argento]

Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31323-2004May16.html)

Is this just the normal rumblings that China and Taiwan have every decade or is this real? And if it turns out that China makes a move against Taiwan will we be able to stop it with our troops already strung out between Afghanistan and Iraq?

I personally am all for Taiwan independence. Don't ask me why, it's not really an educated position I'm taking I just don't like the idea of Taiwan being part of China, as in not self ruled anymore.

[Towel]

They mainlanders seem to do this sort of thing in advance of every Taiwanese election and inauguration. One of these days they'll figure out that bribing, rather than threatening, the government-to-be would work much better.

About the war thing, I doubt the Pentagon is too worried, since the forces occupied in Iraq are not those needed to deter China. If it came down to a large-scale commitment of ground troops to Taiwan, with China in control of the Strait, Taiwan is toast anyway. I think our naval and air units are now on a much lower op-tempo than they were during the actual invasion of Iraq.

[stevegong]

Argento, what makes you so positive that the US will side with Taiwan?

Do you not know that the US agrees to the one China policy?

As for selling Taiwan arms, I'm pretty sure it's just to keep China on a leash and to make money off it.


Think about it, why would the US go out of it's way and side with taiwan and fight a war with China? Although China isn't terribly millitarily advanced, it does have the largest army and nuclear arms, and pretty decent missile technology, so it's not going to be like the very low casualty war that us is fighting on 'terrorism'. If you all are bitching about the couple of dead us troops than I doubt you'll like war with China.


I guess if I were you I'd read more about the topic. A lot of people from the mainland are very offended and upset when they see americans that take a side without knowing much on the matter, or have very one sided information.

[stevegong]

China does this every election, as the prevous poster said, but tensions seem to building more, especially because chen shuibian is very pro taiwan independence.

China believes in resolving the matter peacefully and then implementing the one country two systems method that former president Deng Xiaoping proposed. The same thing is being used now in Hong Kong and Macau. The idea is that because these provinces have somewhat different ways of doing things, they keep their ways, all the same though it's one country.

China will only use violence as a last resort, if and only if tawian declares independence.


So I kinda doubt a resolution is due anytime soon, but chen shuibian kinda pisses me off. China says "if you declare independence, we will attack you" and then Chen answers with "if you attack us we will declare independence"

So what the heck.


And remember that not everyone in Taiwan is in favour of independence. The numbers should be around half and half, maybe more on the pro independence side as of late.

[HOM]

Argento, what makes you so positive that the US will side with Taiwan?

Because it has been stated US policy that the US will come to the defense of Taiwan if China invades. Why else would China not have invaded yet?

Do you not know that the US agrees to the one China policy?

In name only. This was the price the US had to pay to get into the Chinese market. The US support of the One China policy is window dressing, nothing more.

As for selling Taiwan arms, I'm pretty sure it's just to keep China on a leash and to make money off it.

It's to make sure that Taiwan can maintain a defense until the Americans could come to their defense. Oh, and it's another market for us to sell our weapons systems to.

Think about it, why would the US go out of it's way and side with taiwan and fight a war with China? Although China isn't terribly millitarily advanced, it does have the largest army and nuclear arms, and pretty decent missile technology, so it's not going to be like the very low casualty war that us is fighting on 'terrorism'. If you all are bitching about the couple of dead us troops than I doubt you'll like war with China.

Agreed that a war with China would be bloody on both sides, but Chinese systems are 20-30 years behind American systems. The DoD has had plans in place to deal with a Soviet invasion of Easter Europe which would be very similar to a war with China. Another thing to keep in mind is Force Projection. China has very little chance to project their force outside East Asia, whereas the US can have massive amounts of men and material deployed almost anywhere. It is unlikely that China could do significant damage to US assets outside of East Asia.

I guess if I were you I'd read more about the topic. A lot of people from the mainland are very offended and upset when they see americans that take a side without knowing much on the matter, or have very one sided information.
I'm offended when Americans don't stand up to such an oppressive regime as China. Taiwan is a Western style democracy and the US should support and defend it at every step. If China wants to enter the world community it needs to clean up it's act. As it stands right now, China is a thug nation with no respect for human right.

Oh, if China really is going to grow it needs to stabilize the legal system and enforce IP rights. The point is going to come sooner rather then later where it is no longer safe to conduct business in China.

[stevegong]

As it stands right now, China is a thug nation with no respect for human right.


Everyone seems to say this, yet when i go back to china I don't see any difference in human rights other than political rights. And it's very dynamically changing, don't forget, and with time, China will be more demoratic, but it is far from ready yet.

So besides political rights, what are these other aspects of human right you're talking about?

in all honesty I feel more threatened when I'm in the US than in China.

[stevegong]

But I mean frankly, China, Tiawan and US are so connected economically with one another that a war is really not in the interest of either part.

I mean, I really doubt there's going to be war, and I'm sure they'll do anything they can to avoid it.


Do you guys really want to see another war?

[Argento]

So besides political rights, what are these other aspects of human right you're talking about?




Well we can start talking about Tibet, or else how you can't say anything about the government without fear for your life, or we can talk about a little thing called Tienamen Sqaure, the list continues. I'll gladly give you some links but diner is about to be done.

[stevegong]

You know, maybe you should go to china and take a look for yourself.

I am sick and tired being hated over and over because I'm Chinese.

Some chinese students I know at UVa try to avoid telling others they are Chinese as a result.

Getting labeled as Chinese seems to be a really bad thing in the US.

It offends me as an individual, and I never even really lived in China.


So what are we supposed to do? we love our countries, yet since we live in us we have to acknowledge the shit you go on about saying what a shitty country china is?

Have some tolerance and understanding for other countries. You may be the number 1 superpower but I don't think it's right to diss other people's countries over it, especially if they are fond of it.


Maybe I should point out some places where the US comes short....oh wait...that would be anti american. I'd have to fear CIA or FBI labelling me as questionable. This is not absurd, you have no idea how many chinese students that are clean have been interrogated. i don't even understand why, it's not like there are many chinese terrorists.


and am I feeling unnecessarily threatened and in danger living in the US?

[HOM]

If you find areas where the US is falling short you should point it out. That's how open democracies work. It's only in repressive regimes like China where dissent is not allowed.

I don't know why you think that there is systemic racism against Chinese. Perhaps if you gave some examples I would better understand. But racism is also part of an open country. We have the right to be as stupid and bigoted as we want as long as we don't physically act on them that infringes upon your rights.

And I don't have any tolerance of a country as repressive as China. I'm sure there are some wonderful things about China, history, culture, food, but I can't look the other way and say because I like some things I refuse to acknowledge the things I find repugnant.

[Argento]

I am telling you this right now that China's government is a repressive and bad government in many ways. The Chinese people, as far as I know are great people. Hell I've got a lot of them as friends but the CHinese communist government has been historically bad for it's citzens there is no way around it. How does this make me racists?? This is why I don't want China to invade Taiwan because it would be bad for the Taiwanise people like it's bad for the Tibeten people now.

[FFL]

You know, maybe you should go to china and take a look for yourself.

I am sick and tired being hated over and over because I'm Chinese.

Some chinese students I know at UVa try to avoid telling others they are Chinese as a result.

Getting labeled as Chinese seems to be a really bad thing in the US.

It offends me as an individual, and I never even really lived in China.
I think you may be confusing politics with racism.

I don't think that Americans in general "hate" Chinese people. I am quite sure that no one posting in this thread does.

But most Americans see the actions and policies of the Chinese government as oppressive, repressive, and repugnant.

[stevegong]

But most Americans see the actions and policies of the Chinese government as oppressive, repressive, and repugnant.


And does everyone always make the clear distinction?

A lot of americans go on about anti-americanism and they say people shouldn't hate them for they didn't elect bush. isn't that something you have to be responsable for though? not being pro bush doesn't mean you're innocent. And most of the time people don't make a clear distinction between the government and the people.


so you're saying I should give up my chinese heratige and pretend to be american, deny ever having anything to do with china and kiss your american ass?


why do you assume china does not change? look at what human rights was 20 years ago, there was no private ownership of property and everyone even wore the same clothes. are you of the people that china should become a democracy overnight like russia? btw, how's russia doing? I haven't checked on them for a while.

[Scott]

Everyone seems to say this, yet when i go back to china I don't see any difference in human rights other than political rights. And it's very dynamically changing, don't forget, and with time, China will be more demoratic, but it is far from ready yet.

So besides political rights, what are these other aspects of human right you're talking about?

in all honesty I feel more threatened when I'm in the US than in China.

Tiananmen Square is still a thorn in their side (http://web.amnesty.org/appeals/index/chn-010600-wwa-eng) Falon Gong is an example off religious oppression (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA170202002) Internet Censorship (http://web.amnesty.org/web/content.nsf/pages/gbr_china_internet) And here's AI summary (http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/chn-summary-eng)

Not to be too rude but you really are displaying lack of knowledge of China's human rights abuses. Even though they are well documented.

[FFL]

And does everyone always make the clear distinction?
No they don't, which is why I made a distinction between MOST Americans, while attributing the ability to those posting here (including myself) with whom you seem to have a hypersensitivity problem of some sort.
A lot of americans go on about anti-americanism and they say people shouldn't hate them for they didn't elect bush. isn't that something you have to be responsable for though? not being pro bush doesn't mean you're innocent.
Yes, I am guilty... of being an American. Other than voicing opposition to Bush's policies, and voting against him in the upcoming election, what do I have to do to keep from being "guilty?"
And most of the time people don't make a clear distinction between the government and the people.
Yes, you've said that. Frankly, you seem to have a problem making that distinction for both Chinese and American people.

so you're saying I should give up my chinese heratige and pretend to be american, deny ever having anything to do with china and kiss your american ass? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Why yes that IS what I'm saying, congratulations on your reading comprehension skills. </sarcasm> Wow, I don't think I've ever seen someone stretch so far in putting words in my mouth. Geez, talk about a major over-reaction!!

Let me state my position, one more time, as succinctly as possible:

Dislike for the (American or Chinese) government does NOT automatically mean dislike for the (American or Chinese) people. While there may be some who do not feel this way, I disagree with the entire philosophy, whether it be concerning Americans or Chinese. Finally, I believe you are not helping your cause, either personally or politically, by taking personal offense at any criticism of the Chinese government.

[alcimedes]

steve. good god you need to relax.

and btw, the chinese govt. would be even less of a reflection of the chinese people since it's not an elected govt. it's not like you had any choice.

[Argento]

And does everyone always make the clear distinction?



so you're saying I should give up my chinese heratige and pretend to be american, deny ever having anything to do with china and kiss your american ass?


why do you assume china does not change? look at what human rights was 20 years ago, there was no private ownership of property and everyone even wore the same clothes. are you of the people that china should become a democracy overnight like russia? btw, how's russia doing? I haven't checked on them for a while.

Russia is having free elections, granted there are still some problems but they are progressing much faster then China is.

And nobody is saying chinese people are bad they are saying your NON ELECTED GOVERNMENT IS A HORRIBLY REPRESSIVE GOVERNMENT THAT HAS ABUSED HUMAN RIGHTS CONSTANTLY. How could Taiwan possibly be better off under their control??

[stevegong]

Hey guys,

I never said the Chinese government doesn't have places to improve on human rights but I do believe many of your views on things are one sided, especially on Falun Gong.

These people are (were? I don't know if they still do since you don't hear about it anymore) commiting deeds of genocide, either by killing themselves or by killing others, and they are not in protest to the government because the Chinese government never made it illegal to practise it and didn't even take note of it until these things happened. And when they did, they got a mass protest which seemed very much political.

Most of these people aren't killing themselves in public (if you think they are doing it as a demonstration or protest) but rather in their own homes, doing acts of disembowling, butchering or burning as these are the ways to free themselves from the physical body and become a higher being.


The falun gong website obviously does not talk about these things and the leader has political assylum in the US.


As presented above is what I have understood on watching the Chinese news and in depth reportings. Perhaps it's not all true, but I would say it is incorrect to assume the American media is reporting in all accuracy either, since it obviously differs very much.

But I really don't think Beijing woud be oppressing these people because they are practising a religion. There is no reason why they would care, and in fact they did not for a very long time. Religion is very tolerated in China, and in fact, so many people are becoming christian all of a sudden. They are not being oppressed.

[stevegong]

You're right about the internet censorship. I disagree with that very much.