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thegeriatric
geri to my friends
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Heaven
 
2012-04-25, 04:23

I recently picked up a kindle and it weighed next to nothing, I could happily hold this for a long time.
 
Capella
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2012-04-25, 09:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezkcdude View Post
Do you have clown pockets?
Clearly, there are only two ways to carry a tablet. One: either in your pants or shirt pocket. Two: a device bag that one only carries around when they want to bring a device. If only there was a category of bag that's with a large group of people basically all the time and that 7" devices would be ideally sized to fit in.



Oh, wait, there is.

I'm sorry, I missed the fact that size and weight only matters in the context of how men carry devices, because clearly women don't ever purchase electronics. Newsflash, dudes: women buy ereaders and tablets. Women carry purses. Women carry purses all the fucking time. I just went into my common room to do a very informal study. There are 8 purses* there. 7 of them can fit a Kindle or Nook, while only 1 of them can fit an iPad. I would wager this holds true for a larger number of purses.

Look, I'm not saying Apple will or won't make a 7" device. I honestly don't care if they do. I don't think I'm qualified to comment on whether or not the tradeoffs made to make a 7" model that fits in more places is "worth it" for Apple, because I don't know what Apple considers worth it. All I'm saying is, some people are not shutting up about "7" won't fit in a pocket", but there are more things to carry one in than pockets, and 7" would fit in them.

*(9 purses for 3.5 females, how the fuck does that even work, holy shit why do you need more than one)

"A blind, deaf, comatose, lobotomy patient could feel my anger!" - Darth Baras
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ezkcdude
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2012-04-25, 09:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capella View Post
I'm sorry, I missed the fact that size and weight only matters in the context of how men carry devices, because clearly women don't ever purchase electronics. Newsflash, dudes: women buy ereaders and tablets. Women carry purses. Women carry purses all the fucking time. I just went into my common room to do a very informal study. There are 8 purses* there. 7 of them can fit a Kindle or Nook, while only 1 of them can fit an iPad. I would wager this holds true for a larger number of purses.
News flash. Men also have "purses" and ours our bigger:



How do you think I carry around my iPad? So, once again, 7" is no more pocketable than a 10". Works both ways. If I'm going anywhere that I will have time to use my tablet, I bring it with me.
 
chucker
 
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2012-04-25, 09:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezkcdude View Post
So, once again, 7" is no more pocketable than a 10".
Except that it is, because a 10-inch iPad isn't going to fit into a purse.
 
ezkcdude
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2012-04-25, 09:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Except that it is, because a 10-inch iPad isn't going to fit into a purse.
Ok, fair enough. Should've thought about that.



Although it will fit into some purses, of course.

Last edited by ezkcdude : 2012-04-25 at 10:11.
 
Capella
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2012-04-25, 10:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezkcdude View Post
News flash. Men also have "purses" and ours our bigger.
{image}
How do you think I carry around my iPad? So, once again, 7" is no more pocketable than a 10". Works both ways. If I'm going anywhere that I will have time to use my tablet, I bring it with me.
I don't see how you aren't proving my first point. What I get from your response is that you bring your bag when you have time to use your tablet, which is the usage case I referenced when I said "when they want to bring a device", but you don't bring your device bag if you don't plan on using your device. In contrast, people who carry purses generally carry purses as a day-to-day thing, and are rarely without their purse. Look at the difference between these situations:

-Person A's bag is with them all the time. A can fit a tablet in their bag. A's tablet is therefore with them all the time.
-Person B does not have a bag they carry every day. B has a tablet bag, which B carries when they want to use their tablet.

A and B go to the store via a train. An unexpected occurrence happens! The train system has crapped itself and there's now a 45 minute wait for the next one. B was only going to the store and didn't bring their bag, therefore B has no device with them. A, however, has a daily bag, therefore A has their device and can do some reading.

This is the fundamental difference between a "purse" and a device bag like a briefcase or tablet case. a 7" device that fits in a purse has the opportunity to constantly be around in a way that a device that requires a separate bag for that one use doesn't have.

"A blind, deaf, comatose, lobotomy patient could feel my anger!" - Darth Baras
twitter ; tumblr ; fanfiction writer ; Terragen dabbler ; roleplayer and worldbuilder
 
ezkcdude
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2012-04-25, 10:45

I already conceded that it's more pocketable (or externally pocketable, at least). Not sure what else you want me to say.
 
pscates2.0
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2012-04-25, 11:24

Except you've argued and resisted the point for over a week, only conceding today when Capella finally made the point - with visual aids and a good real-life scenario - some of us have been attempting all this time.



Her story holds true. My female friends and relatives carry purses, most of them. Half of them have a Kindle or Nook, and most of them have an iPad or a MacBook of some sort too. Guess which one of these devices is with them wherever they go, day after day, no matter what? Guess what would probably replace that, should it ever come to be?

PS - Thanks, Cappy. I was beginning to have my doubts (and thought I might've entered a dimension in which the obvious, and things stated multiple times, never registers).

It's all in good fun, ezkcdude...don't get bent out of shape, just funnin' with ya!

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2012-04-25 at 11:36.
 
ezkcdude
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2012-04-25, 11:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Except you've argued and resisted the point for over a week, only conceding today when Capella finally made the point - with visual aids and a good real-life scenario - some of us have been making all this time.
If the market is women who carry purses just big enough to hold 7" tablets, but not 10" tablets, is big enough to justify Apple making the product...

Then you all may be right.
 
chucker
 
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2012-04-25, 12:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezkcdude View Post
If the market is women who carry purses just big enough to hold 7" tablets, but not 10" tablets, is big enough to justify Apple making the product...
I don't buy the iPad mini thing, but that market is humongous.
 
thegeriatric
geri to my friends
 
Join Date: May 2006
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2012-04-25, 17:44

Look, most guys would be happy with 7" as would most gals........but which ever way you look at it 10" is better than 7"........................................... ........................OH wait ...wrong thread. ...................

I used to be undecided.....But now I'm not so sure.
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
 
hmurchison
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2012-04-26, 16:29

7" tablets don't sell huh?

http://9to5mac.com/2012/04/26/kindle...nilla_comments

Guess we can lay that one to rest.

omgwtfbbq
 
Kraetos
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2012-04-26, 21:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post
7" tablets don't sell huh?

http://9to5mac.com/2012/04/26/kindle...nilla_comments

Guess we can lay that one to rest.
So... about six or seven million then?

"7" tablets don't sell huh?" is a straw man argument, I don't believe that anyone against the iPad mini as taken that position. Of course 7" tablets sell.

The question is why they sell. Is it because 7" is a popular size, or because they tend to be cheap? I say that it's because they tend to be cheap, so stating that a $199 7" tablet sold 7 million units is in line with my own expectations.

Second, this means that Amazon has sold 7 million Kindle fires in the time it took Apple to sell ~25 million iPads. Despite costing $300 less. This does not exactly scream "popular" to me. If 7" tablets are genuinely as desirable as 10" tablets... why wasn't this number a lot higher? I wouldn't be putting anything to rest just yet.

In fact, this seems to be pretty solid confirmation that the market at large sees 7" tablets as a compromise. The more than twice as expensive iPad sold more than three times as many units in the same timeframe. This is obviously just my opinion, but if there is genuine pent up demand for 7" tablets, Amazon should have moved a lot more than 7 million units.

Lets see what happens when the 10" Fire comes out. That will be the nail in the coffin for this debate, and then you can "lay this one to rest." Same product, same ecosystem, presumably a similar sub-iPad price. (My guess is $299.) Then and only then will we be able to draw meaningful data from this comparison.

Is there demand for 7" tablets? Yes. Is there enough demand for Apple to go after it? No, I don't think so. To me, it doesn't seem to fit Apple's focused ethos.

On a related note: I know a few girls with iPads and they fit in their purses just fine. But then maybe they just consciously bought a purse big enough for their iPad. I don't know how purses work. My girlfriend has a bunch. What seems to be her main purse can fit the her iPad, but she occasionally has a smaller one which can't fit an iPad. (But it couldn't fit a Kindle fire, either.)

Honestly, until reading capella's post, I thought purses had unlimited internal space. I'm pretty sure my girlfriend's purse leads to hammerspace.


Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope

Last edited by Kraetos : 2012-04-27 at 12:40.
 
Matsu
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2012-04-27, 07:31

Purses? I think it's a bit like Camera Bags. There is no perfect one, so the only solution is to own as many as possible.
 
ezkcdude
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2012-04-27, 09:50

Amazon net income was down 35%.
 
Ashka
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2012-05-02, 03:03

OK another female and I own an iPad but it will only fit into one of my handbags..
Looked at an iPod Touch that will fit into just about anything.. But they only received a second colour but were not otherwise updated last year.. Shades of the classic?
A Mini iPad would be a immediate purchase.
I do not need an iPhone with the data costs etc charged here.
So yes please... A mini iPad for the often forgotten sex when it comes to technology.
 
Confuzzzed
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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2012-05-04, 06:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
My female friends and relatives carry purses, most of them. Half of them have a Kindle or Nook, and most of them have an iPad or a MacBook of some sort too
Anti-glare / e-ink are another reason why people carry their Kindles with them so not necessarily the best argument for a 7" iPad. Besides, the nearly 5" Samsung Galaxy S3 phone will soon be encroaching on that space. Does Apple really want to go there?
 
Chinney
beatnik tech friendship
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
 
2012-05-04, 08:33

I think that Capella made the point well regarding a woman's perspective on portability.

That said, a 7" tablet is very different than a 10" tablet. Despite some popular sentiment to the contrary, the iPad is not just a consumption device. It is just large enough to function well for 10 finger typing and other content input. It can function as a laptop replacement - not perfect, but it can. That is simply not the case for a smaller tablet.

I am not saying that there's no market for a 7" consumption-oriented tablet from Apple. I think that there is a huge market and that Apple absolutely should do it. But let's not talk about a 7" tablet and a 10" tablet as if they would fulfil the same functions.

Go softly on.
 
hmurchison
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2012-05-04, 09:00

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5789/t...32nm-a5-tested

Smaller, cheaper, more power efficient,
 
Kraetos
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2012-05-04, 12:24

This is very rare from Apple. They don't usually revise older products like this.

It's almost like Apple intends to keep the iPad 2 around for a while.

In other news, Kindle fire sales have appear to dropped off a cliff.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
 
screensaver400
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2012-05-04, 14:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
In other news, Kindle fire sales have appear to dropped off a cliff.
Actually, that article is about e-Ink Kindle sales dropping off a cliff. No?

Quote:
The drop in Kindle eReader sales came with the introduction of the Kindle fire, and the cannibalization has been nothing short of stunning, massive.
Edit: Nope. That's what I get for skimming. You were right.
 
hmurchison
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2012-05-04, 14:39

The Kindle Fire just doesn't have the iPad ecosystem plus it's missing some key features like a cam and bluetooth.

I don't think you can really extrapolate anything from Amazon's issues. The iPad sells because of the OS, Ecosystem and hardware.

Few companies can match Apple in 2 let alone all three of these key benefits.

omgwtfbbq
 
Kraetos
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2012-05-04, 16:12

So when you have evidence that Kindle sales are strong, that's evidence that Apple should make a 7" iPad because the size is clearly popular.

Then you get evidence that Kindle sales are actually extremely weak, and that's still evidence that Apple should make a 7" iPad because they would do it better than Amazon.

This is confirmation bias. You can't have it both ways.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope
 
hmurchison
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2012-05-04, 16:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
So when you have evidence that Kindle sales are strong, that's evidence that Apple should make a 7" iPad because the size is clearly popular.

Then you get evidence that Kindle sales are actually extremely weak, and that's still evidence that Apple should make a 7" iPad because they would do it better than Amazon.

This is confirmation bias. You can't have it both ways.
That's not my foundation.

My foundation comes from being on my second iPad and realizing that it's functional but there's room for even a smaller and lighter
iPad.

I've said and re-state the iPad is about the software and ecosystem first and foremost. People don't want tablets they want iPads. So it's not about size of screen or
how many USB or HDMI ports are on the side it's about how the user interacts with their device and the iPhone proved that iOS could be special in a 3.5 size while the iPad
proved it would scale to 9.7".

7.85" is a walk in the park.

omgwtfbbq
 
screensaver400
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2012-05-04, 17:10

I think a 7.85" would certainly sell, but if it's a choice between a 7.85" model and a 9.7" model at $299 (which is entirely possible by this time next year), I think most would choose the larger model.
 
Kraetos
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2012-05-05, 00:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post
I've said and re-state the iPad is about the software and ecosystem first and foremost.
Yes, you do keep saying that, but you don't appear to be thinking it through. The software and the ecosystem is explicitly designed to work on a 9.7" device. You're not talking about leveraging the existing ecosystem, you're talking about splitting off a new one.

Quote:
People don't want tablets they want iPads.
Again, you keep repeating this ad nauseam, but you don't appear to actually be thinking it through. The 9.7" screen is literally the defining feature of the iPad. There is nothing about the iPad that represents the essence of the iPad better than it's screen. An iOS device without a 9.7" screen (or larger) isn't an iPad.

Quote:
So it's not about size of screen or how many USB or HDMI ports are on the side
No, it's exactly about that. The 9.7" screen was a deliberate choice. The lack of USB and HDMI ports was a deliberate choice. Saying that it's "not about" these things belies a lack of understanding of why the iPad has been so successful.

Quote:
it's about how the user interacts with their device and the iPhone proved that iOS could be special in a 3.5 size while the iPad proved it would scale to 9.7".
Although they share a name, iPhone iOS and iPad iOS have important differences in the UI. iPad iOS is not simply a scaled up version if iPhone iOS, one look at the home screen should tell you this. The iPhone keyboard is not the same as the iPad keyboard, and if you've ever used a scaled up iPhone app, you would know that they are quite different.

The 9.7" screen is just large enough for a full size on-screen keyboard. A 7.85" screen is not. This is not a minor difference; it completely changes the intended purpose of the device.

Second, the iPad relies on popovers where the iPhone relies on panes. Popovers are far more efficient than panes. Panes are a compromise made due the screen size. A 7" iPad is too small for popovers. Again, this completely changes the intended purpose of the device. The full size iPad is a competent content creation device. The rumored iPad mini would not be. This is exactly the category that Apple doesn't want iPad to fall into.

Apple is not eyeing the Kindle market with iPad. The Kindle market is peanuts compared to the notebook PC market, and that is what the iPad is after. Going after the Kindle market is a distraction that Apple cannot afford right now. The stakes are too high, the future of computing is literally on the table here, and Apple is not going to dick around with making a crippled iPad when the market they are targeting is accustomed to larger screens, not smaller ones.

You (and other iPad mini proponents) cannot see the forest for the trees. The 7" iPad seems appealing because it could be cheaper, but it's a stopgap measure at best. A $299 iPad 2 will probably be practical by this time next year.

Apple must not take their eyes of the ball. The ball, right now, is to replace the 2+ billion Wintel PCs, worldwide, with iPads. A 7" iPad is a costly distraction from this goal. Period. End of story. The full-sized iPad we have today is just about the most innovative thing to happen to computing in the past 20 years and as a shareholder I don't want Apple pissing away time and resources on a market which is a fraction of the size when the utterly massive Wintel PC market is riper than it's ever been. If Windows 8 is the Vista-like fumble that I'm pretty sure it will be, then Apple needs to drive the iPad home as a PC replacement. An iPad which is too small to have a good keyboard would be dead weight against PCs.

The Kindle market is pretty small compared to the PC market. You're arguing that Apple should distract themselves with a 100 million user market when there's a 2 billion user market ripe for the taking.

Quote:
7.85" is a walk in the park.
I think there eventually will be an iOS device in the 5"-8" screen size range, but it won't be an iPad. It will be an iPod. It will use an iPhone-style keyboard which is fastest in portrait mode, and use panes instead of popovers. It will be around 6", be suited almost entirely for consumption, run iPhone/iPod (not iPad!) apps, and it won't be marketed as an iPad or receive the same fanfare than an iPad launch does. It just not as important a size to address. It will happen eventually, but not soon, and not as an iPad.

Sadly, being a technology pundit is truly never having to say you’re sorry. You can be wrong for years and never lose your job.—The Macalope

Last edited by Kraetos : 2012-05-05 at 11:12.
 
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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2012-05-05, 00:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post
I don't think you can really extrapolate anything from Amazon's issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post
7" tablets don't sell huh?

http://9to5mac.com/2012/04/26/kindle...nilla_comments

Guess we can lay that one to rest.
*blinks*

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegeriatric View Post
I recently picked up a kindle and it weighed next to nothing, I could happily hold this for a long time.
Again, though, e-ink readers weigh next to nothing because they can use much smaller batteries than LCD tablets. Most 7" tablets weigh about a pound — they're closer in weight to the full-size iPad than they are to their six-ounce, e-ink brethren.

Quote:
Originally Posted by screensaver400 View Post
I think a 7.85" would certainly sell, but if it's a choice between a 7.85" model and a 9.7" model at $299 (which is entirely possible by this time next year), I think most would choose the larger model.
Pretty much this.

Nobody is saying that nobody ever would ever be interested in a smaller iPad. Nobody needs to say it, because it's A) obviously wrong (some people like the Galaxy Note!) and B) irrelevant. Some people were interested in the white MacBook, for example, and Apple killed that. For Apple, the burden of proof would be entirely on the other side, and nobody has proven that Apple needs to make an iPad mini. They've just given reasons why Apple shouldn't not make it. It'd sell! Of course it'd sell, but would it just sell to people who would buy any $299 iPad?

Apple isn't the type of company that just makes any product because some people might be interest in it. Apple works tirelessly to deliver as few products as they can, because they know their app ecosystem thrives in part due to the lack of fragmentation, and because they know they thrive in part due to economies of scale. They were able to get such a good rate on all those retina displays — that their competitors can't put into any tablets at any price — precisely because they knew they were going to put them into every iPad going forward, not just the luxury models. They also know that the fewer models they offer, the less they have to explain the differences to users. What do you think Apple would rather do: attempt to explain to the world that the iPad mini ran full-size iPad apps, or just keep selling the iPad 2 at the same price and have that be self-evident?

Finally: when would Apple actually introduce this theoretical $299 7" iPad? This holiday season? The iPad hasn't even had a holiday season at $399 yet — I think Apple would be leaving money on the table by slashing the entry price so dramatically this year. (It's not like Android tablets are a threat.) And come next spring, they could probably just keep selling the iPad 2 at $299, which would I think be a more desirable offering to most buyers anyway. It'd be the full-sized iPad experience, and you could actually type on it.

don't call me the contender

Last edited by Robo : 2012-05-05 at 01:12.
 
screensaver400
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2012-05-05, 11:10

$299 is about as low as I can see an iPad getting, ever (excluding the possibility of carrier subsidies). We're used to technology constantly dropping price, but at some point we're going to run into inflation, the same way the MSRP of the same model of a car goes up a few hundred dollars each year.

The iPad's $499 strikes me as equivalent to the iPhone's $199, the iPad's $399 is the $99 iPhone, and the two year old iPad at $299 equivalent to the free iPhone 3GS. I see this as the price distribution starting in 2013, and for several years after. At some point, though, the pricing will slowly start to creep up (as the Macs already have--there's no $799 iMac or $499 Mac mini).
 
hmurchison
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2012-05-05, 22:32

A $299 9.7" iPad isn't going to happen. If you're Apple a little cannibalization is good but you don't want to get too crazy with it.

That is unless the newest iPad drops the standard pricing to $399


The ideal is to satiate the low end market with a highly affordable model at the same time you satiate the smaller but significant market that needs something a bit smaller/lighter.

omgwtfbbq
 
torifile
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2012-05-05, 23:05

I think we can all safely say 2 things:

1) If Apple makes a 7" tablet, it will sell like crazy.
2) If Apple makes a 7" tablet, we can assume it will be because they believe the disadvantages of that size are outweighed by the advantages.

I don't think that Apple is concerned about sales. Really. They know that if they make excellent products, they will sell a boatload. That type of thinking could sink a smaller shop - tech history is littered with examples of better products losing out to worse competitors - but Apple is kind of big enough that they don't need to worry about that type of thing.

I haven't really seen a coherent list of the drawbacks to a 7" tablet, so why don't we start one:

- text size would require frequent zooming
- ?? (Seriously, I don't know what other disadvantages there would be).

Advantages:

- portability
- cost
- marketshare (?)

Could that one disadvantage be enough to kill it? Perhaps but the only way for us to know for sure would be to have a device in hand actually try it out. As we all know, they're doing that as we speak. If we don't see one this year, we won't.

If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong.
 
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