[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by chucker At this point, I'm honestly surprised they're still supporting (let alone shipping) mice at all. Maybe kill it off by 10.9? Maybe a "mouse for stuff like games" compromise?

A mouse is just a simple HID with well supported behavior and functionality. The drivers don't really *change*, so there's really no reason to eliminate it from the OS.

That, and a mouse is still a lot cheaper to make and ship than a trackpad, although that may change fairly soon, I suppose.

[turtle]

So far I'm really enjoying Mountain Lion. I love that Notes and Reminders are their own apps now. Notification center works perfectly for my needs too!

I switched to the Lion/Mt Lion scrolling a while back. Even reversed my mouse too for the one I have connected.

On top of all this, Apple did a great job driving sales because I got my wife a new MBP (13") to replace her 5 year old MB that is very long in the tooth. She loves it and now has Mt Lion too!

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha A mouse is just a simple HID with well supported behavior and functionality. The drivers don't really *change*, so there's really no reason to eliminate it from the OS.

A smartphone screen is just a simple LCD panel with a low resolution and size. The drivers don't really change, so there's really no reason Windows Mobile 6 and Symbian are inadequate smartphones OSes.

[Dorian Gray]

Originally Posted by chucker It's certainly more convoluted. Let's take YouTube as an example: Head to the video. Say, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0079I9MqSNw In the YouTube, choose "Pop Out" from its contextual menu. Apparently, they serve a stream of sorts otherwise now. Hit ⌘⌥A. Wait for the video to start loading, and wait for the sidebar in the Inspector to start showing categories such as "Others". Wait for one item in Others to say "videoplayback" (for YouTube, anyway). Double-click.

Thanks, chucker. Although that is more convoluted than before, it does work. But there seems to be a lot of variation from site to site (I rarely download from YouTube, by the way; mostly I download one-off videos on company websites, which don't really follow a nice template).

But here's a Vimeo video I couldn't download. (I'm sorry it's so brash. The good stuff starts at 3:25.) If you could confirm whether it's possible or not to download that video, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[chucker]

Yup, it's rather case-by-case. This one works okay, though:

Here's the download URL for that particular video.

In the Web Inspector of the link you gave, it shows up under Other as "play_redirect". Double-clicking that, in my case, opened a new tab showing only the video. In that tab, you can select the location bar contents (⌘L), then hit ⌥-Return.

[arteggio]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray I watched him scroll up when he wanted to scroll down.

Scroll Reverser: Make the man happy!

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by chucker A smartphone screen is just a simple LCD panel with a low resolution and size. The drivers don't really change, so there's really no reason Windows Mobile 6 and Symbian are inadequate smartphones OSes.

Either you really didn't understand what I was saying, I didn't understand what you were saying, or you've gone absolutely insane. I think it's the first one.

You said that you wouldn't be surprised if Apple dropped mouse support soon. I say that there's no need to, the drivers are solid and stable, it's a known HID, and given that the input is ubiquitous, it's a reasonable legacy technology to have around for quite some time. No overhead, completed driver, flexibility for users who want it. It's not a hardware port, it's an external device. It would be a bit like deciding to remove support for *only* CRT displays, but leave LCDs available.

Stop selling mice? Sure, I can see that. Drop the drivers anytime soon? Don't see that happening.

How that in any way got you to the statement above, I really don't get. I hope this helps clear things up.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Either you really didn't understand what I was saying, I didn't understand what you were saying, or you've gone absolutely insane. I think it's the first one.

Pretty sure I've gone absolutely insane years ago, but aside from that, my point is that this would hardly be the first time Apple throws technology way not in spite of but because of its stability.

Originally Posted by Kickaha Stop selling mice? Sure, I can see that. Drop the drivers anytime soon? Don't see that happening.

Here's another way of looking at it: what if they relegate mice to the status of some other HDI devices — graphics tablets, for instance. Healthy perpetual niche, but little future beyond that.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by chucker Pretty sure I've gone absolutely insane years ago, but aside from that, my point is that this would hardly be the first time Apple throws technology way not in spite of but because of its stability.

True, but I believe that's mostly been the case when it's been a hardware port being tossed. That's a major decision, but keeping a driver around is trivial.

Here's another way of looking at it: what if they relegate mice to the status of some other HDI devices — graphics tablets, for instance. Healthy perpetual niche, but little future beyond that.

Exactly. I can totally see that. Stop selling them, just keep the driver for folks who want to use their own.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha True, but I believe that's mostly been the case when it's been a hardware port being tossed. That's a major decision, but keeping a driver around is trivial.

Right; we're pretty much talking generic HID drivers anyway. If, hypothetically, they were anywhere near as big as, say, a printer driver, they'd probably move to an on-demand-download model eventually.

But as for the Mouse preference pane? Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that one goes away in, say, 10.10. Third parties can fill in.

[Xaqtly]

Here's another problem I've noticed in Mountain Lion: For a few of my frequently-used server volumes, I've dragged them into the dock for quick click access to them. Well now every time I reboot I get this:



They still work, if I click on them they will bring up the associated network volumes - and then the icons correct themselves - but if I reboot they go back to being question marks. It's a minor problem, but this wasn't happening in Lion.

[Wrao]

Is there any way to make Safari's tab bar function like it used to? where tabs are a finite size and smaller? I don't like that they fill up all the space they are given now, especially since I'm using this on a 27" iMac where having them fill up so much space makes it less productive/useful.

[torifile]

Anyone notice any graphical corruption when waking the display? I noticed it some last night after using my iMac as my PC's monitor but it was manageable. Then today, after the display being asleep, it was beyond use. I had to restart to use it again.

[Partial]

Sometimes I wonder about how much Steve was really involved with Lion. Honestly, SL feels much better, faster, and richer compared to Lion and even ML. Some of the new features just complicate things. Also, the look and feels of some apps have just gone to hell.

[alcimedes]

Originally Posted by Xaqtly Here's another problem I've noticed in Mountain Lion: For a few of my frequently-used server volumes, I've dragged them into the dock for quick click access to them. Well now every time I reboot I get this: They still work, if I click on them they will bring up the associated network volumes - and then the icons correct themselves - but if I reboot they go back to being question marks. It's a minor problem, but this wasn't happening in Lion.

Nevermind, turns out I just hadn't rebooted since installing ML. Mine do the same thing.

[pscates2.0]

Hey, is scrolling different/changed in Mountain Lion?

Specifically, if scrolling very long websites (or a huge, multi-page PDF in Preview or my 4,000-song iTunes library), if I flick fast a few times on my Magic Mouse, it really jumps far ahead.

I've always had the inertial scrolling thing selected, but I'd still have to scroll and scroll at a few sites or PDFs. It seems now once I do a big "flick" for the third or fourth time, the system knows I must be wanting to go a long way and it'll quickly jump way down the line.

Sometimes it's very handy, but it can be a pain-in-the-butt.

I'm not imagining this, am I? I swear I'm getting to the end of these pages/lists with few flicks since I installed Mountain Lion.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Hey, is scrolling different/changed in Mountain Lion?

Yep.

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Specifically, if scrolling very long websites (or a huge, multi-page PDF in Preview or my 4,000-song iTunes library), if I flick fast a few times on my Magic Mouse, it really jumps far ahead. I've always had the inertial scrolling thing selected, but I'd still have to scroll and scroll at a few sites or PDFs. It seems now once I do a big "flick" for the third or fourth time, the system knows I must be wanting to go a long way and it'll quickly jump way down the line. Sometimes it's very handy, but it can be a pain-in-the-butt. I'm not imagining this, am I? I swear I'm getting to the end of these pages/lists with few flicks since I installed Mountain Lion.

You are correct.

[Maciej]

Originally Posted by Wrao Is there any way to make Safari's tab bar function like it used to? where tabs are a finite size and smaller? I don't like that they fill up all the space they are given now, especially since I'm using this on a 27" iMac where having them fill up so much space makes it less productive/useful.

Makes what less productive? That space is only used by tabs - it's either empty, or evenly split between the tabs. If anything, I find it more productive because I spend less time hunting for a tab (I don't have to move the cursor all the way to the left every time).

[Bryson]

I think it's a moving target problem. With fixed tab sizes, the first tab always presents the same target to hit, as does the second and so on. Right now the target presented by the second tab (as the primary example) moves all over the place.

[Partial]

Originally Posted by chucker At this point, I'm honestly surprised they're still supporting (let alone shipping) mice at all. Maybe kill it off by 10.9? Maybe a "mouse for stuff like games" compromise?

That would be the day I leave the Mac. They won't be doing this. Too engrained in the User Experience. Plus, using a trackpad is fine on the go, but I cannot imagine developing with one all day. No thanks!

[pscates2.0]

You would leave the platform instead of buying a $9 USB mouse at Office Depot and getting over it?

Does that not sound a bit overboard and extreme?



You're almost always an entertaining, interesting read, Partial.



The previous titleholder for Most Goofball Reason to Leave the Mac or iOS was held by the guy at the MacRumors forums who said if the next iPhone doesn't have "at least a 4.5-inch display and more RAM" he's "done with Apple!!". And then he included a for extra emphasis, so everyone knew he meant business.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 You would leave the platform instead of buying a $9 USB mouse at Office Depot and getting over it?

Pretty sure he's talking about Apple dropping software support for mice, which is also what chucker was talking about.

Yeah, that might be a final straw for me too, assuming there wouldn't be a good free download from a clever third party to make mice work again. Apple's made a few bone-headed design decisions IMO with the last couple of software iterations, more than in releases past, but I'm not ready to give up and fully embrace Ubuntu on my primary systems just yet. That'll take a few more blunders.

[pscates2.0]

Sorry I misunderstood. My reply can be zapped from the record if needed.

I just don't ever see that happening.

I think the "worst" that might ever happen is Apple switching over and shipping the Magic Trackpad (instead of a mouse) with their desktop machines (but even that seems a bit out there and unlikely). But they know good and well they can't just up and abandon mouse support outright. Not in this century, anyway. I wouldn't worry about it.

Because even if they did, so much hell would be raised that it would be immediately reversed. It would be one of those 24-48 hour things, where they'd reverse their decision once they realized just how badly they stepped in it.

It's nothing we're going to see in our lifetime, I'm 99% sure.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Brad Pretty sure he's talking about Apple dropping software support for mice, which is also what chucker was talking about.

Yes and no. There'll probably always be niche applications for which a mouse's precision makes it the more suitable tool (right now, playing a first-person shooter with a trackpad is a nightmare). Looking at many changes in especially Lion and Mountain Lion, though, the mouse already seems treated as an afterthought — whether it's "hey, a three-finger-tap gesture will make the Dictionary popup that's been there since Tiger much more accessible and, thus, ultimately, useful" or "the best way of accessing Notification Center will be a two-finger swipe from the right edge; once you've discovered that, that'll be quite obvious, too*" vs. "got a mouse? I guess you could, uh, still hit ⌃⌘D" or "uhhhhh let's add one of our least sensible icons ever to the top right bar and screw over half a decade of Spotlight muscle memory because mouse users have to get there somehow, too".

Some features don't even seem to be available without a trackpad gesture at all; for example, can you get to Safari's Lion zoom features (two-finger double-tap; pinch) without them? I don't think it can be denied that it's not exactly the focus of their attention. Arguably, that's both because of excessive iOS-isms (some truth to that) and because it actually makes for a pretty good compromise between HP's "hey, we can have a 22-inch AIO computer that you keep holding your arm against!" and the classic "so you move this thing around on the desk, you see, and that ultimately moves a pointer around on the screen… yeah, you get used to it!". In fact, a more significant argument against this than "yesteryear's Mac users will complain on Twitter!!!" will be "Windows users looking to switch will take some time getting used to it", except they won't once they realize how similar to their iOS, Android or Windows Phone device this is.

*) Arbitrary number of fingers aside.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by chucker Looking at many changes in especially Lion and Mountain Lion, though, the mouse already seems treated as an afterthought — whether it's "hey, a three-finger-tap gesture will make the Dictionary popup that's been there since Tiger much more accessible and, thus, ultimately, useful" or "the best way of accessing Notification Center will be a two-finger swipe from the right edge; once you've discovered that, that'll be quite obvious, too*" vs. "got a mouse? I guess you could, uh, still hit ⌃⌘D" or "uhhhhh let's add one of our least sensible icons ever to the top right bar and screw over half a decade of Spotlight muscle memory because mouse users have to get there somehow, too".

It's not an all or nothing issue... I use both a Magic Trackpad and a mouse, just like I use both a physical keyboard as well! Certain gestures like the three-finger tap I'll probably never get accustomed to. Every time I try a three-finger tap, the cursor slips unless I use deliberate force on the trackpad. If not it often registers as one finger or two. I suspect it's because I have very dry fingertips, so I have an awful time with trackpads and the touchscreen on my iPhone. It's even worse on cold, dry days.

What exactly is wrong with using keyboard shortcuts again? As I'm sure you've heard, the original point of having a single-button mouse was to encourage developers to add keyboard shortcuts wherever possible instead of relying on contextual menus. This also brings me back to the reason why I hate the behavior of Apple-W quitting some single-window apps (and not others) when that's the function of Apple-Q...or Apple-W closing tabs and windows alike arbitrarily from app to app. Apple has not followed a strict HIG since the late 90s and now focuses mainly on novelty, often redundant eye-candy to impress us.

Some features don't even seem to be available without a trackpad gesture at all; for example, can you get to Safari's Lion zoom features (two-finger double-tap; pinch) without them?.

Apple-+ and Apple-- seem to work well enough for zooming in Safari. It's not the precise behavior of the gestures, but I use it regularly.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Eugene What exactly is wrong with using keyboard shortcuts again?

Nothing — but I'm sure you realize that the same argument was used in the 80s: "what's wrong with using a keyboard to navigate through the GUI".

As a developer, I do use keyboard shortcuts a lot.

Originally Posted by Eugene As I'm sure you've heard, the original point of having a single-button mouse was to encourage developers to add keyboard shortcuts wherever possible instead of relying on contextual menus.

Yup. I'm also still frustrated that today's brothers are full of menu items only accessible through a contextual menu.

I'm also well aware that gestures inherently lack discoverability.

Originally Posted by Eugene Apple-+ and Apple-- seem to work well enough for zooming in Safari. It's not the precise behavior of the gestures, but I use it regularly.

It's a completely different behavior, actually (alas, there are pretty much four completely different kinds of zoom in Safari), and as far as I can tell, there's no other way to get there*. So stuff like focusing entirely on a particular paragraph isn't available otherwise.

Either way, that example was to point out that Apple is already moving towards features that are gesture-specific, so it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

*) Which unquestionably is a criticism!

[Partial]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 You would leave the platform instead of buying a $9 USB mouse at Office Depot and getting over it? Does that not sound a bit overboard and extreme? You're almost always an entertaining, interesting read, Partial. The previous titleholder for Most Goofball Reason to Leave the Mac or iOS was held by the guy at the MacRumors forums who said if the next iPhone doesn't have "at least a 4.5-inch display and more RAM" he's "done with Apple!!". And then he included a for extra emphasis, so everyone knew he meant business.

I misunderstood. I thought he meant "You can no longer use a traditional mouse, only the a trackpad".

[Dorian Gray]

Originally Posted by chucker Some features don't even seem to be available without a trackpad gesture at all; for example, can you get to Safari's Lion zoom features (two-finger double-tap; pinch) without them?

Smart zoom is available with a Magic Mouse: it's invoked by double-tapping with one finger (not two like the Magic Trackpad). I use this dozens of times a day.

Incidentally, either Safari 6 or Mountain Lion (I upgraded these simultaneously) introduced a colour-management glitch in Smart zoom. During the animated zoom, colour management turns off. Thus with my wide-gamut monitor, if I Smart zoom an image in Safari, the colours momentarily hyper-saturate until colour management kicks in when zooming finishes. Not a significant problem, just a rough edge that wasn't there before.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray Smart zoom is available with a Magic Mouse: it's invoked by double-tapping with one finger (not two like the Magic Trackpad). I use this dozens of times a day.

But that's essentially a "gestures", then.

(That is to say: I'm assuming you can't do it with a mouse that lacks a touch-sensitive surface.)

[alcimedes]

Anyone know if "Web Sharing" is officially gone now in 10.8?