Wait what
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: El Dorado County, California
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Are you sure you linked to the correct case here? Because the one I'm reading from that link is relating to a defendant being compelled to sign a consent agreement, not to personally disclose information – which, the document itself notes, is considered protected:
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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Er. There is a big difference. In one case the documents are a form of testimony because they, as facts, themselves have to be given, in the other case the documents are already in the hands of the prosecution obtained by legal warrant and the compelled act of the suspect doesn't relate any information. It is not as if the prosecution is requiring the suspect to inform them of the details contained within the encrypted files as would be required if, say, they were written in a coded language only the suspect knew.
Of course this is all moot -- the suspect has been told she must hand over the password (or decrypted contents) ... I think everyone is having problems with the fact that the documents physically exist on that hard drive. Those physical documents are encrypted, through a tool. If the documents required the woman's finger print to open -- there would be no question that she would be obliged to provide it. There is no difference here. Let me go further: if the woman had the password on a slip of paper, hidden. she could be compelled to reveal its location as long as the prosecutorial request was based upon other evidence obtained: ie a friend telling them that the password was written on a slip of paper. the evidence in the case obtained by legal warrant reveals that there is a password to open the encrypted files. from this information, the prosecution can compel the suspect to provide the files or the password. |
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Wait what
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: El Dorado County, California
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The difference is in the method used to obtain said documents. If they were obtained by an outside party (and not from the defendent themselves), then of course they wouldn't be covered by the Fifth. However, the case is quite clear that the defendent could not be compelled to produce the documents themselves, as such an act could be considered a disclosure of potentially incriminating information, and thus protected by statute.
Also, to answer your edit: this case has yet to be resolved, as it is almost certain to be appealed (likely all the way up to the Supreme Court). It will be interesting to watch, in any case. |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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The documents aren't being provided by the suspect if she reveals the password. there is in fact NO information being exchanged. IE the prosecution knows the existence of the encrypted files. Arguing that they cannot get the password is tantamount to saying that even though a prosecution knows a suspect's uncrackable safe to exist, they shouldn't be allowed to get the location of a key for it from the suspect.
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Boucher Last edited by billybobsky : 2012-01-26 at 02:29. |
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Wait what
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: El Dorado County, California
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I did see that case mentioned in the article linked in the first post; the problem with citing that case is that the defendent eventually complied with the request (i.e., there was never a final judgement that compelled him to provide the password, which he never did in fact provide - he provided access to the unencrypted contents of the drive). As such, there is no legal precedent associated with the case to support your argument. Another quote from the article:
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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Uh. That's not true. Sessions (the Judge) directed Boucher to provide the password (or the decrypted files). He complied with that order. That's judicial precedent.
Last edited by billybobsky : 2012-01-26 at 02:29. |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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The answers to these and other societal conundrums can be found on the Tim Horton's doughnut rack. It has been three long months since I've had a Tim Horton's doughnut, and as an American fixated on entertainment and gluttony instead of logic and liberty, I concede the answer must be "All Roads Lead to Tim Horton's".
You know how Tom Hanks felt about the fire he created? ...ya that's how most people feel when they have a Tim Horton's rapturous ring of doughy heavenliness, ascending you into God's hands. I would like to now eat Tim Horton's chocolate and maple frosted doughnuts until I have to be put on life support. Because despite my not thinking this particular law is a big deal, there are lots of other ones that are and I don't see how they'll get fixed in my lifetime, given the system we live under. So pass the fucking doughnuts already. It's lunch time! Just sayin... ...into the light of a dark black night. |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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Moogs: progress isn't necessarily a forward pointing arrow. If you see something wrong with society (and you aren't a fucking nut job), you should do everything in your power to fix it. Leaving it to later generations merely lets the arrow of progress point backwards a little while longer.
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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Oh don't worry; I don't have any faith at all that Gen Y can solve these problems, based on their average level of education (what passes for "high school graduate" etc) and attention span.
I was mostly having a bit of fun there. We should all do what we can. The problem is only about 10% of us actually do. The apathetic couch potato is far more dangerous to this country's future than a random muslim with a bomb strapped to his chest. Despite what some brainwashed voters in this country believe. ...into the light of a dark black night. |
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http://ga.rgoyle.com
Join Date: May 2004
Location: In your dock hiding behind your finder icon!
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Oh, I can see that working... Let's follow a theoretical scenario
Them: "Can we have your password." Me: "No" Them: "Oh, OK. Well then can you decrypt the files and give us those." Me: "Hmmm, I suppose. Here you go" Them: "They're empty!" Me: "No, they are full of Tabs and Spaces." Them: ..... Me: "I get easily bored!" Them: ..... Me: "Can I go now?" Them: ..... OK, I have given up keeping this sig up to date. Lets just say I'm the guy that installs every latest version as soon as its available! |
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
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I can easily see how the police can persuade you spill your password if they have both you and your disk in possession. Just look at poor* private Manning, even democratic countries will go all the way if you cross them badly enough.
A more interesting question would be if a TrueCrypt volume with a hidden OS would be any safer? My thinking is that if the police got a hold of a Mac and saw that it was not using File Vault, but TrueCrypt, then they should definitely be looking for that hidden OS. You might be able to deny it plausibly, but if you were under suspicion of stealing precious diplomatic cables, they should still at least try and extract the password for the hidden OS too. *) My personal opinion is that he had it coming, but that besides the argument in question. |
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Ninja Editor
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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I don't have time do really add more to this now, but thought this was worth sharing: Note to self: Encrypt data, memorize password
Short version, 5th Amendment does protect what is in your head, not your pocket. Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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