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tannenhauser
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2007-01-02, 14:14

i want to get a fish as a pet...
my only thing is i dont want to have a heater or that oxygen making machine for the fish...
do any of you know of some small pretty fish that don't need these machines to survive in a tank-- i know of a few, like the goldfish and the betta fish but i think they are kind of ghetto.
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709
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2007-01-02, 14:24

Well, it sounds like your tank is kinda ghetto. At the very least you need a filter. I'd suggest not getting a 'pet' (IMO, fish don't qualify as pets) at all if you don't want to take care of them properly.

So it goes.
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Windowsrookie
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2007-01-02, 14:26

If you don't plan on using a filter or a heater, maybe you should live in 50 degree piss.
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tannenhauser
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2007-01-02, 14:31

ok... well thanks for that help. u guys are mean.

my friend has a betta fish without any filters/oxy machines/heaters and it is fine and healthy, she cleans the tank every week.

i want a more lively fish, cause they bettas dont move around very much.
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709
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2007-01-02, 14:37

I wasn't trying to be mean. A pet is a responsibility. Another living thing you've brought into your world to take care of. If you can't take care of a fish in a way that's best for them (under the circumstances of being trapped in a 5 gallon tank for the rest of their life, of course) then you simply shouldn't do it. It's not right.

So it goes.
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tannenhauser
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2007-01-02, 14:44

the betta fish does not need a freaking heater/oxygen machine whether it is in a 5 gallon tank or a 40 gallon tank. please don't post useless information. i did not ask for your comments on fish care.
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709
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2007-01-02, 14:53

Whatever, fish killer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a simple Google search
Bettas are one of the most recognized, most colorful, and often most controversial fish in the freshwater hobby. Debates range on about the appropriateness of keeping them in small bowls. To fully understand their needs it is important to become familiar with their native habitat. Bettas originate in the shallow waters in Thailand (formerly called Siam, hence their name), Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, and parts of China. They proliferate rice paddies, shallow ponds, and even slow moving streams.

Although many fish keepers are aware that Bettas come from shallow waters, a key factor that is often overlooked is the water temperature. These countries are tropical, which means the water temperature is quite warm - often reaching into the 80's. Bettas thrive on heat, and will become increasingly listless when the water temperature falls below 75 degrees F. Water temperature is perhaps the biggest argument against keeping a betta in a tiny bowl (which cannot readily be heat controlled).
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alcimedes
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2007-01-02, 14:55

Well, the other problem is that fish need oxygen to live.

The bubblers etc. you see in fish tanks are there to disturb the top of the water to help with air/gas exchange. Most fish can only breathe through their gills, therefore you need a minimum amount of oxygen dissolved in the water.

The two fish you named (Bettas and Goldfish) are types of fish that can "gulp" air from the surface, pass it over their gills and extract oxygen. As such, they don't need oxygenated water to live. They are both very cold tolerant fish (they don't die when it drops below 75) compared to most tropical varieties, so can live in a bowl without a heater although it's not good for them.

However, those are the exceptions. Most fish that aren't "lame" are also fish that require set amounts of oxygen, filtration, heat, light, and set water changes in order to survive.

Anything pretty outside of a Beta or a goldfish is going to take some work to keep alive, and it sounds like that's not what you're looking for.

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tannenhauser
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2007-01-02, 14:57

ok, so then why is my friends betta fine and dandy?
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alcimedes
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2007-01-02, 14:59

Bettas can survive to temps well below what most tropical fish can survive in, but they'll do better in a heated tank.

I have a 75 gallon tank at home, the same betta in a 1 gallon unheated bowl will appear listless and dull compared to that same betta relocated into the heated, well lit, filtered 75 gallon tank. It takes a few days, but the difference is striking.

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Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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tannenhauser
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2007-01-02, 14:59

thanks alcimedes.
do u know of any other species other than the betta/goldfish that gulp the oxygen from the the surface?
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alcimedes
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2007-01-02, 15:02

There are some others, but then you're getting into exotic (read expensive) species, and I don't know of any of them that don't require heated tanks. There are many types of lung fish, but those can get to be over 12" long, and will literally crawl out of a tank if they don't like it and go looking for another home.

If you can find them, feeder guppies can survive in unheated tanks if you have decent light on it and some good live plant growth (depending on your climate) although they aren't very attractive fish. The "fancy" guppies you see in the store are more like standard tropical fish. They'll die if they don't have heat and filtration.

Basically the reason you've only seen Bettas and Goldfish in tank setups you've described is that they're about the only types of fish that will survive under those conditions.

However, 709 is correct in that while they will survive under those conditions, they don't truly thrive until they're in a better maintained tank.

I have 7 fish tanks at home, one might say it's a bit of a hobby of mine.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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Ebby
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2007-01-02, 15:06

The only fish I can think of are goldfish, fighting fish, and perhaps Grommets. (SP) Fish that breath by gulping air from the surface.

There are 2 kinds of filters, the kind that sit on the edge of the tank and one that is nearly invisible. On larger tanks, the air bubbles not only aerate the water, but when bubbling in a tube, create a circular flow of water through the gravel where beneficial bacteria live and filter the water. I have a 50 gallon tank and a little bubbler is far more efficient in the long run than cleaning every week. I highly recommend that even in a smaller scale.

But back on topic... I would ask your fish store what they recommend as they will know what you need and what fish you can use.

EDIT: Ok, alcimedes and tannenhauser, you type too fast.

^^ One more quality post from the desk of Ebby. ^^
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murbot
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2007-01-02, 15:26

Heh, I have a gash on my face from putting my head through my dad's 100 gallon aquarium when I was about 4. I'm kind of hesitant to get one.
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tannenhauser
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2007-01-02, 15:37

ok, great. thanks for the help!
i am going to the store after work and will find out what fish i can get.

im just against the filter and oxygen maker things is because i want to put the tank in my bedroom and i dont want additional noise. i live in new york on a very loud street... so bubbles and blurbs dont work for me.

ill report back on what i get
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Ebby
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2007-01-02, 15:58

The air pump can make a bit of noise, but I have the biggest one I can find. You can get away with a tiny one and if you put a towel under it, I bet you could get it less than 30db if not significantly less. (that's really quiet) Using a airstone to reduce the size of the bubbles also dampens the sound and removes gurgles and such.

But I know those New York apartments... space is at a premium.

^^ One more quality post from the desk of Ebby. ^^
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spotcatbug
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2007-01-02, 16:02

Goldfish don't have to be boring. You can find them in lots of different shapes, sizes and colorings. Also, they seem to have a kinda dog-like personality (at least mine do). Well, fish aren't like dogs (duh). I guess it's just the way they always sorta waddle over to me when I get near the tank (they are expecting food, of course). I enjoy my goldfish quite a bit.

Ugh.
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thegelding
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2007-01-02, 16:27

alci...any of your tanks salt water tanks? been on and off thinking of getting some sea horses...partly because they are just so freakin weird...so i think of getting a small to moderate sized salt water tank with some sea horses and a couple of fish that live ok with sea horses (not many since sea horses are slow and easily eaten...but salt water tanks seem to be a bit more work and also aren't very small

g

crazy is not a rare human condition

everything is food if you chew hard enough
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Mr Beardsley
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2007-01-02, 16:29

A heater won't make any noise, so you should have no aversion to them.

If noise is your main concern, there are several options for a quiet tank that will still adequately meet the needs of tropical fish.

1. The latest hang on back filters are really whisper quiet. They do a good job, and you just have to change out the filter floss/carbon once a month or so.

2. If you don't like the noise from a dedicated air pump (I agree the buzzing is annoying) you can always get a powerhead (small underwater pump) with a venturi on the outlet that will provide water movement and oxygenation.

I will say though that if you are interested in fish as a zero maintenance endeavor you should look elsewhere. While the maintenance isn't bad, you do have to keep up with it. Siphoning gravel, changing filer media, using an algae magnet on the walls of the aquarium, and getting good fresh water (stuff without the chloramines, metals, and other stuff present in city water) are all required. It really isn't too bad, and fish rock.

"Slow vehicle speeds with frequent stops would signal traffic congestion, for instance."

uh... it could also signal that my Mom is at the wheel...
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Mr Beardsley
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2007-01-02, 16:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegelding View Post
alci...any of your tanks salt water tanks? been on and off thinking of getting some sea horses...partly because they are just so freakin weird...so i think of getting a small to moderate sized salt water tank with some sea horses and a couple of fish that live ok with sea horses (not many since sea horses are slow and easily eaten...but salt water tanks seem to be a bit more work and also aren't very small

g
thegelding, I have done saltwater for the last 5 years so if you have any questions about setting up a tank I'd be happy to answer them for you.

"Slow vehicle speeds with frequent stops would signal traffic congestion, for instance."

uh... it could also signal that my Mom is at the wheel...
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faust
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2007-01-02, 17:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegelding View Post
alci...any of your tanks salt water tanks? been on and off thinking of getting some sea horses...partly because they are just so freakin weird...so i think of getting a small to moderate sized salt water tank with some sea horses and a couple of fish that live ok with sea horses (not many since sea horses are slow and easily eaten...but salt water tanks seem to be a bit more work and also aren't very small

g
I have a book on caring for sea horses, you can have it free if you like.

I gave on my hopes for a sea horse tank once I realized how delicate they are.

10 years ago I had a lovely 40G tank ful of vibrant fish till my brother unplugged their heater to vacuum
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alcimedes
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2007-01-02, 17:37

I haven't gone with saltwater. Too much money for the fish, and too much money for the lights for my taste. So far all of my tanks are freshwater, although I've toyed with the idea of saltwater a lot in the past.

I think at the end of the day though, the cost factor is enough to keep me in freshwater fish. When it's normal to drop $25 for a saltwater fish those $4 anglefish start to look pretty nice.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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billybobsky
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2007-01-02, 19:24

I did the whole marine aquarium thing when I was 10-13... It is completely doable for a compentent child of that age or an adult of that mental age... Unfortunately, when I actually needed parental i input it wasn't there so the tank just sort of died....
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BenP
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2007-01-02, 19:31

For the OP: Paradise fish can do the no heater/filter thing, too. I was into fish too when I was 10ish, but I went to the beach for a week with my family and didn't feed them and they ate each other and that was the end of that.
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Brad
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2007-01-02, 19:36

I get the feeling that you should try these fish instead, tannenhauser.
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Windowsrookie
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2007-01-02, 19:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
I get the feeling that you should try these fish instead, tannenhauser.
Or This.
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
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2007-01-02, 19:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
I get the feeling that you should try these fish instead, tannenhauser.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tannenhauser View Post
i want a more lively fish, cause they bettas dont move around very much.
We've already explained that - suprise! - the reason "they bettas dont move around very much" is because the water is too cold. It's ironic that you're arguing that your friend's betta is "fine and dandy" in cold water while complaining about how listless the betta seems to be.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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billybobsky
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2007-01-02, 21:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by murbot View Post
Heh, I have a gash on my face from putting my head through my dad's 100 gallon aquarium when I was about 4. I'm kind of hesitant to get one.
Um... Your head wasn't by chance placed there by a rousing game of house hockey?
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thegelding
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2007-01-02, 21:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by faust View Post
I have a book on caring for sea horses, you can have it free if you like.

I gave on my hopes for a sea horse tank once I realized how delicate they are.

10 years ago I had a lovely 40G tank ful of vibrant fish till my brother unplugged their heater to vacuum
that is very kind

there is a company in hawaii that hand raises seahorses...they claim their's are much less delicate than wild seahorses, and that they will eat dead shrimp from your hands (that is how they are raised

not 100 percent sure i'm going the seahorse route...but thinking about it and researching it a bit...just fun to read up on them and all about tanks and live sea rock and such...quite a bit to keeping a tank running nicely

g

crazy is not a rare human condition

everything is food if you chew hard enough
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crazychester
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2007-01-02, 22:03

I have a friend who kept Paradise Fish that would jump out of the water and grab itty bitty bits of bread from his fingers. He didn't have filter or heater.

But in my experience, even the coldwater fish do much better with a pump and filter and the tank gets much less dirty which seems to significantly reduce the risk of disease. Actually, I found even with goldfish, a light is also a big plus and I should imagine it would be essential with the tropicals. The goldfish definitely do "the dog" thing though. Weird.

But you can add some catfish (that will also suck algae off the tank walls), danios and white cloud mountain fish to the list of ones that will survive quite happily without a heater. Maybe one of the loaches too (m/b weather loach?). Danios and white cloud mountain fish are both tiny but are pretty neat in small schools because they're so active.

One of my white clouds jumped out of the tank without me realizing it when the lid had been left off. Before I discovered it, I managed to tread on it but, as it was still breathing, I just plopped it back in the tank. It survived just fine altho' it always had a big haematoma thing above one eye from getting a bit squished.

But I guess you could say the white clouds are pretty hardy!
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