Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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...at the iPad mini event. Go to the usual rumor sites to read (MacRumors has three separate stories since last night).
Still just not sure what's going to set it apart from the 13" Air, which already has the "slim body/no optical drive/SSD storage" thing staked out. And one of the MR stories mentions this new thing not having discrete graphics (one of the things that could set apart a 14" "pro" model from a 13" Air. And another thing...will Ape finally take the opportunity to make the 13" pro notebook's resolution match that of the 13" Air? As it stands, the 13" Pro displays less info than the Air (1280x800 vs. 1440x900). So will this new pro model be 2560x1600 (and the same usable space as the current 13" Pro) or will it be 2880x1800? I'm just so confused about all this. I would've wagered a hefty sum, months back, that the 13" Pro's days were numbered since: a) Apple is obviously going the SSD/no optical drive route on its notebooks b) Such a 13" notebook already exists c) The 13" Pro has never been as balls-out "pro" as the 15" or 17", so the 14" Air could easily fill that role But now? So are we going to have two 13" Apple notebooks, one with "Pro" in the name, but both with thin bodies, SSD storage, no optical drive and, apparently, integrated graphics (and a "pro" model with less screen real estate at the exact size display as the 13" Air). So will the defining difference be "well, one has a wedge shape, and the other has 'pro' in its name for no apparent reason..."? |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: Dec 2005
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If this pans out, it's a bit worrisome I think. Apple is showing a real lack of focus and commitment to its product line.
They seem very hesitant to make mistakes, and by introducing retina displays in this manner it kind of covers their bases, but jeez... so much for a simplified/straightforward product line. |
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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Pscates, you say that as if the 13" Pro currently makes sense in the lineup. It doesn't, it hasn't since the 13" Air hit $1299. IMO Apple should have axed the 13" Pro two years ago.
What will distinguish it from the Airs? The retina display. What will distinguish it from the Airs once the Airs go retina? Nothing, which is why at that point the 13" Air will cease to exist. Pretty sure the end game here is to just have 3 MacBooks, starting at $999, $1199, and $1799. (And maybe at $2499 if the 17" makes a comeback.) Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. |
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Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
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Maybe they are selling a lot of 13" MBPs and that's why they keep offerign them?
Personally, I wouldn't judge a new 13"'er before I've seen the specs. If it truly is a MBP with superior punch, battery life and retina display, then that alone should be enough to justify it. But if it's just a fatter MBA then I don't see the point. |
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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Ever since the Air started coming into its own I've questioned the 13" Pro's place/purpose. This recent news just makes it more glaring/weird, and serves to illustrate my point even better. If folks want to throw around words like "neutered, dumbed-down and pointless" to describe various possible Macs, I can think of no better example of a 13" MacBook Pro that is neither a) as thin, light as their existing 13" notebook or b) as "Pro"-featured as the larger offerings (Retina version or otherwise). Talk about a product possibly inhabiting some sort of odd, middle-ground...not as sleek as an Air, not as robust (discrete graphics, etc.) as its naming would imply. I'm not really one to make concrete blanket statements about the needs/usage/wants of total strangers (and that my usage/needs/expectations speak for them, and vice versa), but it truly is tough for me, at this point, to imagine a potential 13" MacBook Pro customer not being satisfied by the 13" Air for their needs. And if someone is truly a demanding on-the-go "pro"-level user, wouldn't the larger display and better graphics/video capabilities of a 15" model be a better fit? What does the 13" MacBook Pro have, in true, real-life usage to most people, that a 13" Air wouldn't? What does it offer (beyond a SuperDrive, which isn't going to be a factor in another week anyway)? Are the processors/performance that different, I wonder? Can't imagine that being the case. To each their own (what do I care what others want, buy, use, etc.). But it sure does occupy a weird spot at this point. It's the mystery machine in the Apple lineup. Too big to be little, too little to be big. It's lacks all the things that make the 13" Air and the 15" MacBook Pro what they are. It doesn't possess the strengths/plusses of either. That's probably the best way to put it. And we are on that transition phase at the moment, so in another year or two, everything is going to be like the Air and the 15" Retina. So some of these things may not make the cut, and shake out quite differently than they do now. The market could very well decide such a product isn't needed/wanted, and Apple will respond accordingly. An 11" and 13" Air, and a 15" (and maybe 17"?) Pro, with all the word entails (and in the new RetinaBook design) just makes for a cleaner, more sensible approach, IMO. Four sizes...two small and affordable, good performance, integrated graphics, no Ethernet or FireWire, etc. Two larger, and no compromises or horseshit...dedicated graphics, beefier processors, bigger this, more that, all the I/O a video or music professional can stand, etc. None of this "WTF is this supposed to be?" Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2012-10-15 at 15:14. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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Maybe a bump to the 15" Retina as well? I don't mind the design, but they actually need a tad more base RAM if it's going to be a pay-me-now-or-forever-hold-your-peace arrangement. 16GB standard, 32GB option will do. 8GB is OK today, less so two years down the line. My next camera is going to have 36MP image files, I need RAM...
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: Dec 2005
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You believe "pro products" are simply dependent on screen size. Personally, I would love the most powerful and portable laptop I could buy. If Apple could make a 13" MacBook Pro Retina that was a bit better than the 13" MacBook Air I would prefer that over a 15" model. The funny thing about this screen size argument has always been that for some reason that I can't understand, consumers are suppose to only want an 11" or 13" laptop. Why? Can they not "handle" a 15" screen and does it necessarily have to have better specs or "pro features" beyond just having a 15" screen? It's just a weird argument. I don't really know what Apple is up to with their laptops... or their desktops for that matter. They seem unwilling to commit to taking the product lines in a specific direction and the desktops are MIA. Maybe that will change next week and it will become clearer what Apple's mac lineup will be for the next couple of years but I am not a fan of the current approach of letting existing products age and introducing more expensive but next generation models. I'm not convinced that Airs will eventually just become MacBook Pros or vice versa either. Apple would be giving up a lot of margin on the high end models by going that route. It makes a lot more sense IMO to have an 11", 13", 15" "Consumer" Air line... and a 13" and 15" Retina MacBook Pro Line. So what if there is overlap in screen size... it's just 1 feature. Apple should be able to differentiate in more ways than that. Last edited by Brave Ulysses : 2012-10-15 at 16:00. Reason: damn OS X autocorrect kills me for my poor typing skills |
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Stallion
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
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I believe the AIRs have the ultra low voltage variants of processors - they're significantly slower. Idk, I'm a huge fan of the AIR, but for the dev work I do, I think it would make more sense to have a 13" MBP. I'm fine with the only difference is better display, more ram, faster processor as long as the thing starts at a reasonable price.
I also don't foresee the AIRs going retina for a few years unless there is a MAJOR change. The battery requirements would be way too high for the small form factor -- at least today. Maybe that major change is Haswell, or maybe it's a switch to custom chips. Who knows. I could definitely see them killing off the optical line now that Mountain Lion is out, the app store is blowing up, etc. ...and calling/e-mailing/texting ex-girlfriends on the off-chance they'll invite you over for some "old time's sake" no-strings couch gymnastics... Last edited by Partial : 2012-10-15 at 16:12. |
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Less than Stellar Member
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I'm thinking that the current 13" MBA would make a great candidate for a retina display. The only issue is that a retina display requires quite a bit of horsepower to work effectively. I think they should kill the 13" MBP and increase the specs of the 13" MBA to be retina.
But I don't see what the major problem would be to have a 13" retina display capable Mac alongside the current 11 and 13" MBA offerings. They have a non retina 15" and that line seems perfectly fine. If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong. |
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Formerly “adambrennan”
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
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My brother iMessaged me a photo of the 13" Pro today in an Apple store asking if he should buy it. I told him no, but that's simply because of the rumored bump just over a week away. I do however thing it's the right model for him given the following:
• He is a student, so £/$/€ matters - Price-point is going to be £999, so that's the entry level 13" Pro and Air. Retina models are going to be out of the equation. • He is a student, so 13" (in my experience) is the perfect size for trade off between portable and screen real estate. 13" is the perfect "back-packable" size without verging on too small. This would swing things toward the air but... • He is a student, needing the use of Windows apps, and in my experience boot camping with 128Gb isn't going to happen As he's a student (not sure if I mentioned that) he will be getting educational discount, but I put the full RRP there because those are the figures I can easily get at. So like I said, the 13" Pro is the computer for him (and I would say students with decent sized storage needs are going to be the main market) I'm just telling him to hold off to see if any bumps / price drops hit the current Pro line. |
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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Right, which is why a new post on the topic confused me. The 13" MBP has been a mystery machine for nearly two years now. I don't think that a 13" Retina MBP is going to cause Apple to reevaluate the necessity of the normal 13" MBP, just like the 13" $1,299 Air didn't cause them to reevaluate it either.
Here's the 13" MBP's dirty little secret: it's the most popular MacBook. At the same price as the Air, the fact that it has bigger numbers on the spec sheet acts like a magnet to the uninformed buyer. I've seen countless first time Mac buyers get torn between the 13" Air and the 13" Pro, and eventually go with the Pro because it has a bigger hard drive. And that's the problem: the 13" Air is better for these people. It always has been. They don't fill up the hard drive, so the one true advantage of the 13" Pro becomes moot. And instead they miss out on SSD responsiveness and a better, sharper screen. (Not to mention battery life and weight.) All because somewhere along the line Apple lost their testicular fortitude. It used to be that Apple was famous for killing hot products in their prime, because Apple Knows Best. The iMac G3 form factor was iconic, a lesser company would have rode it out to the bitter end. But not Apple—once the iMac G4 came along, the G3 was phased out even though they theoretically could have kept selling it for less. (I believe they did for a short while, but not for long.) Same with the iPod mini. When the iPod mini was axed it was Apple's crown jewel! But there was no room for it alongside the nano, so they killed it. The decision was obvious if you know how Apple (used to) think, but perplexing if you came at it from the perspective of a different consumer electronics company. But now, here we are in 2012 and Apple pretty much faces the exact same dilemma, except the 13" Pro is the mini and the 13" Air is the nano. On paper, the Pro/mini is better. But the paper lies. Apple knew this with the nano in 2005, they knew that if they kept the mini around, people would gravitate towards the mini because it held more, even though the nano was better. Seven years later they seem to be incapable of making what is effectively the exact same call. I have had this argument with first time Mac buyers a dozen times. They can't get away from the fact that the 13" Pro has a bigger hard drive and a faster CPU. The scars from the megahertz wars run deep. But I was relentless, I pushed and pushed them to get the Air, and all of them have thanked me for it. Apple needs to do the same. The need for the 13" Pro has run it's course. Apple of 2005 with Jobs firmly at the helm would have made this decision in a nanosecond, I know this to be true because 2005 Apple made the exact same decision with the iPod mini vs. nano. But for whatever reason, Apple of 2012 with Cook at the helm can't seem pull the trigger. It's a shame, really, because the end result is millions of Mac users who bought the wrong Mac. Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. |
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Formerly “adambrennan”
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
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Ha! I like the way the first post after completely goes against what I said
I think boot camp is a valid case for >128Gb of storage though. I struggle with a tiny 200/50Gb split on my MacBook so I'm advising with my personal experience in mind. |
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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Thing is, you fall outside the normal band of MacBook usage. Most people don't use Boot Camp.
What I really want is a 13" MacBook Pro which has dedicated graphics. My pie-in-the-sky MacBook lineup looks like this: $999: 11" MacBook Air $1,199: 13" MacBook Air $1,499: 13" MacBook Pro w/ dedicated graphics $1,799: 15" MacBook Pro $2,499: 17" MacBook Pro That's the perfect lineup right there and it has the two 13" options which Apple seems to be clinging too. At that point you could retina-ize the whole lineup and it would still stand on it's own. But to have two models at the same price with the same screen size is just needlessly confusing. Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: Dec 2005
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128GB does not go very far with these..... even being very conservative. It may work for many people, especially the FaceBook/Twitter/Web Browsing crowd. But if this is going to be your only computer, I can not imagine dealing with that limited storage, even as a novice user. Even being conservative an iTunes library is easily 10-20GB if music based, possibly 20-40GB if the user buys movies from iTunes. iPhoto library even with files from a standard modern point and shoot will be about 20-40GB pretty quickly. Then mix in an iPhone backup and/or iPad backup. You may argue that you can back up to iCloud now but 1. Most people will wind up having a backup on their computer whether they know it or not. 2. Until Apple gives iCloud users more than 5GB of storage, iCloud isn't really a viable backup option. It is very reasonable to expect 60-100GB of that drive would be dedicated to iTunes library, an iPhoto library, and iDevice backups..... without even trying very hard. Kiss doing anything with iMovie away. Kiss using a modern dSLR away without relying on external drives. |
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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- A smartphone with a camera roll they've never backed up, - A lot of photos on Facebook/Twitpic/Instagram, uploaded right from the phone, - A bunch of Pandora stations (maybe Spotify if they're ahead of the curve), and - iPhones/iPads with almost nothing on them that isn't backed up by iCloud. I think you would be quite surprised by the number of Mac users who have never opened iPhoto, and even more surprised by the number of people with empty iTunes libraries. The vast majority of the Mac users I know are using less than 25% of their drive space. I think once you get out of the 20's demographic and into the 30's, the numbers start to shift from what I am describing to what you are describing. (How old are you? I've never actually asked, for reference, I am 24.) But I also think that purchasing habits shift from MacBooks to iMacs and Mac minis, making drive space a less pressing issue. Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: Dec 2005
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I'm 27. If it was 256GB it would be one thing, but 128GB just does not seem future proof whatsoever....even for a novice/web based user. The worst experience I can sell to a potential mac user is one that will make him feel like his computer is antiquated within 1-2 years, which storage issues inevitably seem to trigger... often times because people do not understand what is on their computer or what they haven't deleted. |
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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I don't think 128 is a go for many. But I know so many in my immediate circle of friends and family who have under 40GB of everything. So, yeah. They probably could make a go of it. People are buying Airs in that capacity, and I'm betting its the sole computer for many of them.
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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But even if you're a casual iPhoto user and you have, say, a 20 GB photo library, surely a 128 GB SSD is ample if you have no other media? It wasn't long ago that your options with a brand new MacBook were 80, 120, and 160 GB. And there's always external hard drives. Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. Last edited by Kraetos : 2012-10-15 at 18:20. |
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Ninja Editor
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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Ninja Editor
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
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Of course external drives are an option, but they're a sucky option. Consider these two scenarios... Using a laptop: 1) Get out your laptop 2) Use your laptop 3) There is no step three Using a laptop with external hard drives: 1) Get out your laptop 2) Get out your external hard drives 3) Find the USB cable 4) Untangle the USB cable 5) Notice that you accidentally grabbed the cable with the micro USB end, which is for your other external drive. 6) Find the correct USB cable 7) Untangle the correct USB cable 8) Find the power adapter 9) Plug everything in 10) Use your laptop See the difference? When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream. |
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Less than Stellar Member
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A retina display will require a dedicated graphics card.
256 gigs is the minimum for a "pro" computer. With photo stream automatically downloading photos by default and iPhone images being 5+ megs each, things add up quickly. I've got an external USB 3 drive I've put my library on. It's not an ideal solution, but I'd be out of space on my MBP already otherwise. How many people use Bootcamp on their laptops these days? I wonder if I'm out of the loop, but it seems to me that the days of needing bootcamp are well behind us. I used to install it first thing, but I don't have it on either of my computers now. Re: Apple losing their "fortitude"... Come on. That's ridiculous. The 13" MBP is not exactly a compromised machine. My in-laws got one mostly because I didn't want them to wonder how to get optical media working on it. That type of sacrifice is quite different from any of the sacrifices anyone would have made when Apple killed of the mini to go to the nano. You might equate it with killing the floppy, but that's not accurate either. When the floppy was killed, people had options for getting their stuff onto their computers with other media. You can't do that from the cloud just yet. The only viable option are (a less than reliable crop of) USB sticks. I don't have the numbers, but I'm quite sure that the data loss rate of a USB stick is much higher than those of optical media. Yes, people can buy an external DVD drive, but that's an awful user experience. I'd venture to bet that satisfaction among users who need to purchase one of those drives is significantly lower than those who don't. Me? I was glad to purchase my rMBP. I haven't really needed optical media much in the last 5 years. (Except when I needed to install D3 while on the way out the door to DC last week.... Stupid slow internet downloads of 8 freakin' gigs!) But, as any of you, I'm not your typical user. If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong. |
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Custom User Title
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At home
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My 500GB as been below 75GB for years now. I'm tired of managing all these files. Come on it's 2012 and I feel like when I was dealing with my 200M hard drive. Seems like all the devices are using bigger file and need more space but hard drives don't keep up the beat.
Personally I would love a Air but until it gets to 750 or 1TB that won't be an option... Would be cool if they would replace the DVD with a second HD in the13" MBP. Yeah right, as if... |
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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MR says a new Mac mini is also expected at this show. Good mix.
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Near Indianapolis
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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Careful.
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Near Indianapolis
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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Cool. As long as they offered s more affordable SSD BTO option, that'll be great. In fact, that was one of the four things I said I'd be happy with seeing on this go-around.
Surely such a modest, reasonable wish is workable. My only concern is that this is shaping up to be one of those infamous "everything but the kitchen sink" events. And we see how they've often turned out in the past...the rumors are only about 1/3 or half-true, and much of the stuff we come to expect and get excited about doesn't take place. This is one event, and while we assumed this new iPad was the primary focus, we're now throwing in an updated notebook and updated desktops as well. Don't get me wrong...I hope this all happens (and it certainly needs to, if you look at the dates of when the iMac and Mac mini were last updated). I just hope it's not too good to be true, and this event passes with just the new iPad and one other item. Granted, if the Mac mini update is simply an under-the-hood thing (latest processors/graphics, USB 3.0, etc.), that wouldn't require any real fanfare or onstage time. And maybe if the iMac is redesigned in a similar way to 2010 (same overall design/look, just some subtle, nice tweaks in places), that shouldn't take a huge chunk of time or attention away from the two other devices which most people would view as truly "new"? The iPad mini and 13" Retina MacBook Pro would be the primary focus, and the desktops would garner a simple "we also have updates to our Mac mini and iMac line...be sure to check them out!" statement. They've done this sort of thing in the past...a brief mention of another product while working their way to the meat-and-taters of a particular event. I suppose such a full, packed event is possible, done a certain way (I don't think all four products can be "the star"...just one or two). Waiting patiently (for a couple of things, actually)... Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2012-10-16 at 11:46. |
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Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: Dec 2005
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Why wouldn't a user that fits your description above just opt to get one of these new Samsung Chrome Books? It's a very valid question. It seems to do most of what the MacBook Air does for those users... for many hundreds less. That is the problem I see with Apple's push toward simplifying the feature sets and removing high end features like hard drives, disk drives, dedicated graphics, etc..... it is a race toward removing the relevancy of owning an actual computer. And that's very risky. Apple sells iPads to fit those rolls. Macs should always be more powerful and more capable. Otherwise they will soon turn into iPads with keyboards. |
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