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Anyone want to talk about the Apple Car?


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Anyone want to talk about the Apple Car?
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alcimedes
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2015-02-23, 19:47

Wouldn't Apple just want to make the OS for the new self driving cars? Something to do while your car drives itself between point A and point B.

It's the new me time.

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Wrao
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2015-02-23, 23:48

I'm not convinced self-driving cars are as near as the tech world thinks. If they'll even happen at all. Google is the furthest along in that field and even they admit they haven't really come close to solving several all-too-common driving conditions (Rain and the likes). At least, last I heard anyway which was a few months ago. And of course the legal aspects aren't really any close to being sorted out either.

After thinking about it a fair bit the area that I don't expect Apple to be too keen on are maintenance and service and upkeep overall that automobiles require that computers and tech gadgets don't. I'm sure Apple would love a car that didn't need to be serviced but gears still need to be greased, filters still need to be changed, tires still need to be replaced. The physical wear-and-tear that is subjected to cars as compared to anything Apple has experience with is the 'in over their heads' part of all of this that I'm sure they could figure out more or less but it'd be begrudgingly.
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Wrao
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2015-02-24, 04:41

As an aside, I have a bit of a running joke with a friend of mine that whenever 'the internet' at large is against something in tech it winds up being a huge success. Plenty of examples ranging from Apple, Nintendo, MS to movies and games and just pretty much whenever you see a hugely polarizing uproar from tech forums and comments sections, safe to bet on black.

I've only poked around a few sites but so far the Apple Car buzz is reminding me *a lot* of the pre-iPhone(and Pre-iPad for that matter) days in terms of what people are saying, why it can't work, why it's a dumb idea, as well as the usual bevy of played out jokes about Apple itself. It's kinda hard to not think of this and go 'welp, when is the internet *ever* right about this stuff?'

I'm pretty convinced at this point. It just makes more and more sense the more I look at it. The untested point at this juncture is how well Apple can design something that features many moving parts.
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Brave Ulysses
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2015-02-24, 11:20

I don't know.... All of Apple's success post 2000 has really revolved around the same basic product.... a mobile media/communications device in your hand (soon on your wrist)..... iPod... iPhone... iPad... Apple Watch....all of which require the same skills, expertise and technology on Apple's end to succeed.

And a mac isn't much different than the above either.

I see no reason at all to think that Apple would somehow think that consistent progress and success in making small portable media devices would somehow lead to confidence, excellence, and success in designing, manufacturing and selling a car.


It's much more likely that Apple wants to control every screen in your life and thus be the interface of your life....... phone, watch, computer.... tv.... and car.


Apple hires the big guns to make inroads into well established traditional markets.... their experience may be overkill or not directly relatable but they bring legitimacy, connections, and perspective. Is Angela Ahrendts selling clothes at Apple?




**** With that said..... I do think the automobile industry is in need of a major jolt... and that jolt will likely come in 10-20 years when software becomes as important as the hardware. I don't think we are anywhere near that point yet. And I don't know who is positioned to be prepared for that moment.
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drewprops
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2015-02-24, 11:49

My mechanic friends already shudder at the idea of cars that can be nefariously hacked, endangering the occupants.

::looks around for a 1960s muscle car::



...
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zippy
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2015-02-24, 16:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
My mechanic friends already shudder at the idea of cars that can be nefariously hacked, endangering the occupants.

::looks around for a 1960s muscle car::



...
That's actually a current vulnerability - one that Apple could help to fix. I can't recall off the top of my head, but some journalist publication or TV show recently did a piece about that and demonstrated that security was apparently at the very back end of consideration for car manufacturers. If at all. They showed how cars on the streets today can be hacked into and control everything from engine shut off to braking, locks, etc..

Just a quick search turned up an article from 2011 about this kind of stuff (so it's been on the radar for a while and car companies still suck at it): http://www.caranddriver.com/features...hacked-feature

Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents!
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Wrao
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2015-02-24, 18:34

That's true BU, and it's certainly not the same sort of jump to go from iPod to iPhone as it would be to go from iPod/Phone/Pad/Watch to Car. But I would also bring up that Apple has flexed considerable muscle with regards to their Apple Store designs as well as their new Corporate HQ and their data centers as well. Those are all large scale projects that are very far removed from their traditional area of expertise but of which haven't really provided any meaningful challenges or setbacks due previous lack of experience.

Still, designing an all-glass building with all glass floors and staircases and elevators and whatever else is an engineering achievement but it's still not designing a car.

But then I would also propose that the car market as it sits is pushing itself towards computers more than the computer market is pushing itself towards cars, and that at some point there will be a threshold where crossing from one to the other(in a one-way aspect at least, doubt Ford and Honda will ever make consumer electronics) starts to make more sense. From high-end supercars that have a few dozen specialized computers to manage every aspect of the mechanicals to commuter cars that are becoming lighter, smaller, more compact and efficient with the main selling point being their internal comfort derived largely from more sophisticated computers on board.

Electric cars already reduce the amount of moving parts considerably. So whittle it all away and I don't think the gulf is at all intractable here. Certainly not for a company as well resourced and wealthy as Apple.

The main thing I'm not at all feeling is the rumored 5 year go time. That seems absurdly, unrealistically, laughably optimistic and no amount of throwing experts or veterans or incentives can flip that.
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Brave Ulysses
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2015-02-24, 18:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
That's true BU, and it's certainly not the same sort of jump to go from iPod to iPhone as it would be to go from iPod/Phone/Pad/Watch to Car. But I would also bring up that Apple has flexed considerable muscle with regards to their Apple Store designs as well as their new Corporate HQ and their data centers as well. Those are all large scale projects that are very far removed from their traditional area of expertise but of which haven't really provided any meaningful challenges or setbacks due previous lack of experience.

Still, designing an all-glass building with all glass floors and staircases and elevators and whatever else is an engineering achievement but it's still not designing a car.

But then I would also propose that the car market as it sits is pushing itself towards computers more than the computer market is pushing itself towards cars. From high-end supercars that have a few dozen specialized computers to manage every aspect of the mechanicals to commuter cars that are becoming lighter, smaller, more compact and efficient with the main selling point being their internal comfort derived largely from more sophisticated computers on board.

Electric cars already reduce the amount of moving parts considerably. So whittle it all away and I don't think the gulf is at all intractable here. Certainly not for a company as well resourced and wealthy as Apple.

The main thing I'm not at all feeling is the rumored 5 year go time. That seems absurdly, unrealistically, laughably optimistic and no amount of throwing experts or veterans or incentives can flip that.

It's important to point out that while Apple is having a new headquarters built, data centers, retail stores, etc... those are all facilities and operations tasks that are necessary to facilitate the design, engineering, sales and service of their core competency.... mobile electronics.

Additionally, Apple is not designing or constructing any of that themselves. Sure, they have influence and final say on the aesthetics of things, but they contract out everything to architecture firms, general contractors, consultants, etc. Just because Apple is having an insane building designed and constructed as their new headquarters does not mean Apple is a world class architect or structural engineering firm. They hire world class architects and engineering firms to do that for them.

Apple is a world class mobile electronics engineering company and world class software company.
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Wrao
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2015-02-24, 20:36

Another wet blanket for the car stuff is that I really don't see Apple being too enthused about entering into a market that would essentially require them to care about their product for 10+ years. I drive a 10 year old Honda for instance and I still get excellent support and maintenance. I had it back to the dealer service recently and they gently asked if I was considering a new car but mostly reinforced the "look you can get another 10 years out of this thing" line.

Seems unlikely Apple would want to get involved with any of that.

Similarly, Apple Stores are so ubiquitous and prevalent that they add a good deal of value to the prospect of buying an Apple product. That's all well and good but Apple Car Stores would be... weird. It'd have to be an entirely new brick-and-mortar front with an entirely different set of requirements and all.

Still though I just can't stop thinking about the $500B car industry and what's on the table for Apple with regards to potential growth here, even if it would be ambitious/left field/improbable.
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kscherer
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2015-02-24, 22:24

So, what stops Apple from designing the car and contracting out its manufacture to someone with experience?

Apple does not build phones, or computers, or watches or microchips. They design them, then contract their manufacture out to experts in manufacturing.

There is absolutely nothing stopping this from happening, and I would wager all my marbles that, should Apple enter the car business, they will not build a single bolt themselves. It will be done by someone with experience doing that. Personally, I think this is the nut that is being left to spoil by the tech media. We should all know better by now.

Apple Car: Designed in California, made in [insert guess here].

My guess is America (provided the tools in Congress provide a tax holiday to get that money into the country ). Otherwise, Made in China.

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Brave Ulysses
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2015-02-24, 23:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
So, what stops Apple from designing the car and contracting out its manufacture to someone with experience?

Apple does not build phones, or computers, or watches or microchips. They design them, then contract their manufacture out to experts in manufacturing.

There is absolutely nothing stopping this from happening, and I would wager all my marbles that, should Apple enter the car business, they will not build a single bolt themselves. It will be done by someone with experience doing that. Personally, I think this is the nut that is being left to spoil by the tech media. We should all know better by now.

Apple Car: Designed in California, made in [insert guess here].

My guess is America (provided the tools in Congress provide a tax holiday to get that money into the country ). Otherwise, Made in China.
Well, an architect doesn't build the apple campus or their retail stores either.

Apple designs mobile computing devices and software for them. Pretty much all of Apple's skill and expertise revolves around that.

A car... there's a lot more to it.
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alcimedes
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2015-02-25, 09:55

I can only see this working one of two ways.

1. Apple is doign all of this work to have a "Car OS" basically, that they can then sell to various 3rd parties who are actually producing said cars.

2. Apple comes out with a totally new concept of what a 'car' is, and it's so different from what we have today that their core competencies somehow come into play. I can't imagine what a personal transportation device would look like that could function with our current infrastructure and be a radical departure from a standard car, but that's about the only thing I can see as actually working on the 'build a car' front.

If Apple tries to make a semi smart traditional car, they're going to fail miserably. (IMO) Just too many things that are radically different from what they've done in the past, and too many smart and well financed people as competition.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
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drewprops
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2015-02-25, 13:38

You guys who think there's going to be an Apple Car are IDIOTS!!!


...
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Wrao
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2015-02-25, 14:06

The 'totally new concept of what a 'car' is' already exists in what Tesla is doing and in what Google is doing and what every other manufacturer is tinkering with. It lies somewhere in the confluence of all-electric that doesn't suck(defined loosely by meeting or exceeding what we expect from an ICE car with none(or fewest possible) of the drawbacks traditionally pegged on electric vehicles), potentially self-driving(or at least augmented in this fashion), with a new sales model that clips the traditional one and top that with state-of-the-art interior/in-car systems and you're at a point that is, for all intents and purposes, a radical departure from where we are with cars today. Thinking "ah but it still has four wheels and a steering wheel, so it's still 'just a car'" is a bit like thinking "Ah the (first gen) iPhone is just a Treo without a keyboard, still 'just a smartphone'"



Or nevermind, I take it back, the Apple car will have rounded rectangular wheels.
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Mugge
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2015-02-25, 15:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
You guys who think there's going to be an Apple Car are IDIOTS!!!


...
Maybe it's going to be an Apple Flying Car?
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Chinney
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2015-03-02, 20:36

Over the last 6 months or so I have developed a fascination with the prospects for electric cars. I am spending more time on Tesla forums (lurking, so far), than Apple ones.

The time of the electric vehicle is coming, if it has not essentially already arrived in the case of Tesla (albeit still with some drawbacks). But Tesla is the only manufacturer which, IMO, is truly taking the electric car seriously - which really believes that electric cars are more than just a 'hair shirt'. Actually Tesla believes they are much more than that: i.e., that their electric cars are already better than other vehicles in many ways, and will quickly get better still. In my view, all the other companies are dabbling or are developing electric vehicles (or quasi-electric vehicles) just to respond to government zero emissions requirements.

It would be great so see another manufacturer really take on this project. It is going to require more than just Tesla to lead to a future where the electric car really catches on. Apple is an ideal company to do it. It would be a big challenge though, but I do hope that Apple takes it on.

Anyway, as it is, I am seriously considering a Tesla Model S for our next vehicle. It costs about 3 times more than I have ever paid for a car, or ever expected to pay. But it may be worth it to me.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
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Graculus
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2015-03-05, 15:47

Do you think Apple has considered acquiring Tesla? Or has someone already done that.
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Chinney
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2015-03-05, 20:35

There were a lot of rumours about a year ago that Apple might buy Tesla. I do think that those rumours had some substance to them - that Apple was at least checking out the possiblity. It led to nothing at the time and I think that Apple decided to go it on their own. It could be that the price was too high. I am a fan of Tesla, but I do think that their stock is overvalued for a company that is not yet profitable.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
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Ryan
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2015-03-06, 08:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
There were a lot of rumours about a year ago that Apple might buy Tesla. I do think that those rumours had some substance to them - that Apple was at least checking out the possiblity. It led to nothing at the time and I think that Apple decided to go it on their own. It could be that the price was too high. I am a fan of Tesla, but I do think that their stock is overvalued for a company that is not yet profitable.
I wonder if they were afraid that Elon Musk might try to take over the rest of Apple.

It's happened to Apple before...
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Chinney
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2015-03-08, 16:40

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
2020? That seems beyond optimistic. It's really not that far away and there are a lot of things you need to sell cars. It's an expensive and highly regulated business that requires a lot of investment. It's not like Tesla is making any money from selling cars. Since Apple is hooked on high margins I assume it would have to be a luxury vehicle. The article says they are shooting for a 200 mile range which doesn't seem that hard to do. A real breakthrough would be a rapid charge system that drastically shortens "refueling" time.
A 5 year development time (and others here think that is wildly optimistic) and only a 200 mile range even then?

If so, I think that Apple will be considerably behind from the outset. Tesla is already at a 265 range with their Model S, and is expected to up that range considerably within the next year or two. Tesla will also be coming out with at least two additional models during that 5 year span, including much more affordable models than what they are currently selling. Other manufacturers, while dragging their feet right now, will soon, I expect, be stepping up their efforts. Apple would have to have something truly special in other ways in 5 years if they expect it to sell despite having a range of only 200 miles.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
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addison
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2015-03-09, 07:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
A 5 year development time (and others here think that is wildly optimistic) and only a 200 mile range even then?

If so, I think that Apple will be considerably behind from the outset. Tesla is already at a 265 range with their Model S, and is expected to up that range considerably within the next year or two. Tesla will also be coming out with at least two additional models during that 5 year span, including much more affordable models than what they are currently selling. Other manufacturers, while dragging their feet right now, will soon, I expect, be stepping up their efforts. Apple would have to have something truly special in other ways in 5 years if they expect it to sell despite having a range of only 200 miles.
Tesla has addressed the range issue so far by shoving more batteries into the car not through any technological breakthrough. I'm not sure how far they can take that approach. Of course a 265 mile range would be fine if you could recharge a lot faster than what you can today.

I hope Apple doesn't try to shake up the auto industry by making another rich guys toy. That's the last thing we need. Cars today are too expensive forcing people to turn to leasing or phony financing for something they use less than an hour a day. I'd like to see them make a more affordable car that is super efficient. Something along the lines of the Google self driving car or the i3 is a lot more interesting to me than the Model S.
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Chinney
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2015-03-09, 21:26

Not entirely true. It is accurate to say that Tesla stuffs a lot of battery into the Model S. It is also true that Tesla has not yet developed a 'Holy Grail' battery technology that nobody else knows about. But Telsa has made plenty of small technological advances in the way that the battery is incorporated and managed in their vehicles, and in other vehicle technologies, that contribute significantly to the range. Nothing revolutionary, maybe, but they all add up. As for quick recharging, Tesla's supercharger development is at the head of the pack for that. Tesla is really serious about developing practical electrical vehicles that will replace internal combustion, and I admire them for that.

As for "rich guys toy" comment, I agree, but only in part. The Model S is very expensive. But I would not call it a rich-guys "toy". I would reserve that designation for the first Tesla design, the Roadster. I think that even Tesla would agree that was mostly a toy - but a toy with an technological development purpose. The Model S, by contrast, is a serious and practical car. Sure it is definitely a 'rich-guys serious and practical car', but its price is not out of league from what you would pay for a medium-to-top end Mercedes or BMW. Next for Tesla is an SUV, and then a mid-sized regular car, each at declining price points. Key to Tesla's plans is bringing the electric car to a level of general affordability.

As for the BMW i3, with 4 seats and a maximum range of only 80-100 miles (without a gasoline range extender) it is not really anything more than an urban runabout. Nothing wrong with that, but it does not really compare with the Tesla. And the BMW is certainly far from being cheap either. I think the Model S is a better value overall.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
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Wrao
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2015-03-14, 14:02

As much as I would love to see Apple 'crack' the mainstream electric car in a way that made high technology accessible and sensible to the general buyer to where I'd even look into getting one. I'm thinking it's more likely whatever they offer will be in the $60-100k range and be a competitor to conventional luxury/high end cars.

The other potential option of course might be the Kia/Hyundai route of 'looks like a luxury car at least' and try and sell themselves like that but that really doesn't seem like Apple's style.

Anyway, I bet if/when they do make a car I'll bet the Apple Watch will double as a key FOB for it.
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curiousuburb
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2015-08-15, 04:43

Project Titan: CONFIRMED !¡!
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Chinney
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2015-08-15, 07:51

I hope that this means that a new anticipated release date is a lot quicker that the 5-year estimate previously indicated in this thread.
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Dave
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2015-08-15, 21:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
You know, it sounds like a joke but I honestly wouldn't be too surprised if cars in the future, not just Apple's, *do* restrict user access to the engine compartment. What is a user even going to do with a sophisticated computer controlled electric motor other than muck it up?
Plug the transmission fluid hose back in, to avoid paying for a tow truck or mechanic.

Edit: Oh, wait, you said electric car. Plug the loose wire back in, to avoid paying for a tow truck or mechanic.

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
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addison
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2015-08-17, 16:41

I think Audi made an A2 a few years ago that had a sealed hood. They provided a grille that folded down to allow you to check fluid levels. I don't think it matters really. Most people never open their hoods now. They wouldn't even notice.
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Robo
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2015-08-23, 10:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Plug the transmission fluid hose back in, to avoid paying for a tow truck or mechanic.

Edit: Oh, wait, you said electric car. Plug the loose wire back in, to avoid paying for a tow truck or mechanic.
Yes, "loose wires."

Future cars won't have easy access to the engine compartment for the simple reason that they won't have engines, and their compact electric motors can and will be built into the drivetrain for efficiency and packaging reasons, not just shoved under the hood because there's no where else to put a bulky engine. You can lift the hood of a Model S, but it's not the engine compartment — it's another trunk. The only user-accessible maintenance thing is the windshield wiper fluid, because that's the only thing that needs to be. It's not going to be an "Apple will lock the user out of the hood and only allow their special Apple Geniuses to install their special Apple Engine Oil" kind of thing — Apple cars won't need oil changes. EVs require much less maintenance than the stack of hacks that is the modern ICE.

For grease monkeys who like tinkering with car guts all afternoon, it'll be the end of an era; for everyone else, a huge improvement.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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Wrao
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2015-09-01, 16:20

Evidence continues to mount that Apple is working on a car. I still can't really figure out how they intend on going about it or what about it will make it worthwhile or unique but at this point I think it's all but confirmed that it *is* happening.
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Brave Ulysses
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2015-09-01, 16:52

An incredible unprecedented hiring spree for sure.

Well... if you have the most cash in the world, you can do anything with it... including start the world's most advanced car company from scratch.....

Will the returns be worth the investment? Who knows... but I'm very excited that Apple is seemingly doing something ballsy and truly different.
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