Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Firefox 2.0 has been out for almost two weeks; so, it's high time for me to revise my list of Firefox User Interface Grievances!
Supposedly, a major focus for 2.0 was improving the user experience. If that was a goal for the Mac version, I'd say the team failed miserably. Yes, the Mac version generally got all the same new doodads that the Windows and Linux versions got. Yes, some Mac-specific issues are better, but some things are worse and many existing problems haven't been touched at all. To recap the reason for this rant from my thread for Firefox 1.0: Quote:
I want to make more people aware of these problems so that one day hopefully the Firefox development team will put a little more effort into making Firefox a first-class citizen on Mac OS X. I would really like to enjoy using Firefox on Mac OS X, but the unending interface problems and inconsistencies drive me up the wall. That being said, the following list was made using the official Firefox 2.0 version for Mac OS X, the most current stable version available at the time of this writing. I may update this list as I continue to find problems with Firefox. Various UI Issues
Window Toolbars
Text Entry, Navigation, UI
User Accessibility
Sound like a lot? Now also consider that this list is probably far from complete since this is just a compilation of issues that I, a single user, have experienced in the few hours here and there when I'm test-driving Firefox for Mac. I'd welcome feedback and pointers to any additional issues that I haven't uncovered yet. The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting. |
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Veteran Member
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Is it still slower than Safari?
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Veteran Member
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Another question, How much RAM does it use versus safari?
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skates=grafs
Join Date: May 2005
Location: New York
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:desperately awaiting the official release of Shiira 2.0:
That's quite a list, Brad |
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Both of your questions are very difficult to answer. The way browsers handle memory is a complicated matter and cannot easily (and fairly) be benchmarked.
That said, here are some very basic tests. Please don't draw any major conclusions from these numbers. A "clean" start of Safari with no InputManager plugins, one window open, and no content loaded uses 9.96 MB of real memory on my PowerBook. A "clean" start of Firefox with no extensions or themes, one window open, and no content loaded uses 31.89 MB of real memory on my PowerBook. Then, clearing the cache, restarting the browser, and loading www.google.com in a tab, www.apple.com in a tab, and forums.applenova.com in a tab, in that order, make Safari's memory usage jump to 20.29 MB and Firefox's usage jump to 38.67 MB. The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting. |
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monkey with a tiny cymbal
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lost
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One of my biggest beefs is the non-native HTML forms and buttons. Neil Lee's Bon Echo is a slightly modified version of Firefox that uses native widgets and is specifically optimized for each Mac processor.
Gets rid of at least a bit of the ugly. |
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Safari 3.0 for the win! The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting. |
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hustlin
Join Date: May 2004
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That's not entirely true. It ignores many but not all, and it actually recognizes some custom form elements, such as file select controls, better than safari.
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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It's almost as bad as Lotus Notes. And Sametime. Guess which three apps I'm locked into using at work now? :P |
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Space Pirate
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
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Brad that's an amazingly long list for having used the apps for only a few hours. As a developer you're more sensitive (and knowledgeable of the tech) than the general user. As I'm the latter, it's interesting to go through your list and realize why FireFox feels so strange, point by point. To refer to it as a port is probably the most apt description I've seen.
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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A long list to be sure, and many of them are probably correct. However some bullet-points are erroneous. I'll just mention one example for now...
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And more to the point, Firefox is a multi-platform 3rd-party application developed primarily by geekoids who have no sense for human-interface design. For that I have lowered my expectations with regard to Firefox's look and feel. Flaws based on opinion or deviation from Apple HIG in homegrown Apple apps are far more deserving of this type of scrutiny. I mean using Firefox is a choice, but we are pretty much locked into using monstrosities such as the OS X Finder. |
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Mac Mini Maniac
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Since it seems to fit in well here:
I'd like to switch from FF to Safari. I really would. There are however two little things that I can't live without: * No warning when closing windows with multiple tabs. * No Web Developer toolbar. Converted 07/2005. |
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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I don't understand why this is a problem. Cmd-W closes windows. Hitting that chord or clicking the red widget means you are done with the window. There shouldn't be an exception just because you might have multiple tabs open within that window. Or maybe we should just take everything one-step further and create a meta-widget that changes function based on what it thinks you might want to do...
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hustlin
Join Date: May 2004
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Mac Mini Maniac
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Don't you sometimes miss? The minimize, back and close buttons are quite close together...
Cmd-W closes windows, or, if multiple tabs are open, tabs. What if I missed the W and hit Q instead? Or I hit W but brush Q hard enough for it to register a press... They are right next to each other after all. I'm not advocating an "are you sure you want to do this" box on everything, but closing 10-20 tabs by accident is... a bit annoying. In FF, you can disable the warning easily if you don't want it. In Safari, Camino, Shiira, etc. it's just missing, which IMHO is a huge folly. Quote:
Converted 07/2005. |
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Using the same icons, Firefox has much tighter spacing: Oddly enough, when switching to "Icon & Text", Firefox's spacing is tighter vertically but otherwise wider between icons: (I'm excluding Back and Forward since Firefox appends the "arrow" to make them even wider.) So, actually it does seem like Firefox's devs went "Haha, let's screw with their heads and changing the icon spacing by 2 pixels, but narrower or wider in different places!" even if that wasn't the intent. Quote:
Glancing through my apps, though, I only see two or three open-source apps that have a "good" UI. So, maybe you're right. I didn't mention the HIG and I'm pretty sure some things like tab-closing behavior and text editing aren't covered by the HIG. The rubric I'm using is the user experience that is provided by most Mac apps that share a common set of UI behaviors, mostly because they simply "inherit" the standard behaviors. They set the standard for what a user expects from an app. If it was commonplace for every app to redefine how all of its widgets work, I wouldn't be here making an example of Firefox. Besides, yes, these criticisms are all my opinions. I already acknowledged that others may not share my views as these as serious problems in Firefox. You're welcome to count the ways that Apple needs to FTFF. The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting. |
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Senior Member
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(Basically, since that wasn't clear, I'm saying that I'm glad that's not included in Firefox because it's probably one of the most annoying things ever.) I really have nothing to put here, but I feel it's rather strange to not have one. |
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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And even though I usually don't want to copy the font styles, it's the times I do that make the behavior worthwhile. It's better to be able to do it than not have the capability at all. |
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Senior Member
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"fonts, sizes or styling" don't include lists and tables
(And might I add that with all the people using tables for formatting, even they may not be a good idea. I've found them very hard to get rid of.) I really have nothing to put here, but I feel it's rather strange to not have one. |
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Let me give an example: the Graphic novels table on Wikipedia's Heroes article. Try copying it in Firefox, then pasting it into TextEdit. You will end up with a tab-separated piece of plain text. Better than nothing, but a lot of useful formatting is gone. Try resizing the TextEdit window, for instance: the tabs won't resize automatically. Now try the same with Safari. When pasted in TextEdit, you end up with a table! Resizing the window will resize columns accordingly! Even the links are intact. Want Firefox's behaviour instead? Fair enough, you can do that as well, with Paste and Match Style — there. |
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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Yeah, so it seems most Apple apps have this and Word has "Paste Special..." Even stuff like Colloquy also has a "Paste as Rich Text" option, which is similar. So yeah, rollercoaster375, blame the app devs that don't include the special Paste functions.
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Space Pirate
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
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Most of the apps that I use provide an option to "paste without styling", so I do like that feature though I have to admit that I often find myself emitting an expletive, undoing the paste then going in to find the "paste without styling" feature. My own work style would make it better to have the "copy styling" feature optional.
Other annoyances: I'm surprised at how long it takes for FireFox to start up on my machines. What's up with that? There's no visual cue that you can create a new tab, as there is in Safari. But, if you double-click to the right of an existing tab you'll be rewarded with a new one. Good to know, wonder what other hidden features there are in FF. Why does FireFox crash when I try to log into my MediaTemple.net for administering the company website? I would have thought that FF was the better, platform agnostic browser to do that. EDIT: First part of post was beaten to the punch, with an example no less, by Chucker. . |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
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Maybe adding a cmd-opt-C command for "Exact Copy" (or the other way around, cmd-opt-C doing a "Plain Copy") would be something for Apple and other developers to do. |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
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Which makes it even stranger that a simple cmd-V pastes text including its style and formatting. Sounds more like a bug to me. |
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careful with axes
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
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A) I want to copy this. B) I want to copy this, but leave out that. C) I want to paste this. D) I want to paste this, but leave out that. Action B ends up being superfluous. Action D is a modified behavior so it shouldn't be default. |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
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(btw, I'm talking about copying text from Safari and putting it into an iChat window, so it may or may not be related to this Firefox thread). Simply put, if I copy some text in Safari, then cmd-V paste it into iChat, it pastes with the original font, size, style, etc, including its color, if applicable. Why would it do that when there's the cmd-opt-shift-V command? 99.5% of the time, I don't want weird formatting. I just want the letters & numbers. If I want to change it around later, let me choose what to do. |
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Firefox for Mac: User Interface Grievances | Brad | Third-Party Products | 33 | 2005-05-26 16:45 |