Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
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I'm not talking about other people's DRM, here. I understand them trying to keep everybody in the iTunes store.
I'm talking about stuff that's unencumbered: WMA and OGG. Really, I'm interested in OGG. I'd like to re-rip my CD collection to something better than MP3, but in a neutral format so I can access it from any of my computers or any media players. No point, though, if I can't play it on my iPod. It's not like it would be hard... the machine's capable. And it doesn't hurt them any to support OGG. So, whaddya think? Do I have any chance? |
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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WAV |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: New York City
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Whats wrong with straight up AAC? it is just the next version of mp3 and should be standard across media players...
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Ogg Vorbis (OGG is not an audio format; it's a container) is encumbered by being licensed exclusively under an anti-capitalist license alienating rights that is illegal in various countries, including Hungary. |
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
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The only notable format Apple doesn't (and, so far, can't) support is DRM-protected WMA.
As far as Ogg goes (never knew it was such a problem internationally; I'm just way out of the loop), there are ways to play it in iTunes: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...21103065300430 http://zskl.zsk.p.lodz.pl/~skali/oggvorbis.html http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/14259 So, why not rip in mp3 or AAC? Dolby's AAC sounds better at comparable bitrates anyway. |
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He was probably referring to the fact that MP3 and AAC are "patent-encumbered". Of course, for a normal user, that's entirely irrelevant.
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
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Patent, shmatent... I haven't cared in six years.. lol
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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ಠ_ರೃ
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
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Well, WAV takes up huge amounts of room, but it's well supported under Windows and Mac, and it should work with most MP3 players as well. If you're looking for something higher quality than 320 kbps MP3 with the same flexibility, that's the way I would go.
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Not wishing to hijack the thread but does iTunes play Flac files?
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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i'd like to see a FLAC to ALAC converter... does anyone know of one?
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Quidquid vis fieri, fac; facienda faciet nullus pro te. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
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The proof's in the pudding, really. There are a lot more hardware and software players that play Vorbis than AAC. Of course, MP3 trumps both in terms of quantity, but after listening to some stuff encoded in AAC or OGG, it's really easy to tell the difference in quality. I've ripped my MP3s at 192kb, but it's just a matter of more recent formats sounding better. AAC and OGG just sound better than MP3. Hardware players I don't care about, because I love my iPod and won't change in the forseeable future, and when I do it will almost certainly be to a more recent iPod. Software's a bigger deal, though, because I'm working on an in-house stereo system that streams music from room to room. The best software for that task supports Vorbis but not AAC. It supports Vorbis because it's unencumbered (see below). Last edited by Anthem : 2005-10-23 at 09:15. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Basically, you've confused the source code and the specification. The specification is totally open and unencumbered. There are some restrictions on using their software, but not many. Their FAQ will answer it better than I ever would: Quote:
It's hard to get more business-friendly than that. Anybody that wants to can use Vorbis. They don't have to pay anything to use it (Apple has to pay Fraunhofer to use MP3 in iTunes). Is there any reason that Apple wouldn't support this? It doesn't cost them anything. I'd even be happy with it as a plugin for iTunes, but it still wouldn't play on my iPod. EDIT: A "BSD-Like" license essentially means the development libraries are under the same license terms as Darwin. Last edited by Anthem : 2005-10-23 at 10:18. |
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Unzip, install, restart Winamp, done. Perfectly legal since it uses QuickTime to authenticate. |
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As for Ogg Vorbis, it turns out I was under the wrong impression that it was entirely GPL. Mea culpa.
Your assertion that there's more devices that support Ogg Vorbis than devices that support AAC seems dubious, however, if you look at iPod sales numbers. They outnumber Ogg Vorbis-capable players by multiple times and have done so for years now. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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I'm coming into this late, but exactly how is WMA unencumbered, and AAC (an open standard part of the MPEG-4 spec) not?? Did we all just get shifted into bizarro world here?
And I've got to say... I am *REALLY* damned amused by all the 'open source' advocates trumpeting Ogg Vorbis, and then expecting *APPLE* to come to their rescue and write a QT plugin. OPEN. SOURCE. Go write it yourselves, for christ's sake! The Vorbis format is available and documented, and *SO IS QUICKTIME*. Go to it! Get! Come back to us when your itch is scratched! Jeez. For the record, there have been two Vorbis QT-plugin projects that I know of over the years... both eventually died because their creators abandoned them... and *NO ONE ELSE CARED* enough to take them up. Open source is a survival of the fittest model, no? Well.... |
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I agree, as I have pointed out before, that AAC should be the format of choice for anyone. It is very flexible (I wish Apple would start supporting AACplus already!) and high-quality. Ogg Vorbis only surpasses it at high bitrates, but only to a small negligible margin. |
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As for open source, though, just to play the devil's advocate: QuickTime support makes a Vorbis-capable player not. |
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Join Date: May 2004
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Got a link to the currently updated project? I'd love to see how it's doing. (or how long it lasts... ) Quote:
I'd like to see Apple support OV in the iPods too, but I can actually see why not - they're pushing MPEG-4 everywhere as a concerted strategic move against WMV/WMA. This is *important* for *everyone*. Seriously, be honest now - which would you rather see ubiquitous in digital media: WMV or MPEG-4? Those are your two choices, pick one. If Apple supports OV (or Thedora) strongly, then it weakens the maneuver against WMV, and *that* is the real enemy. MPEG-4 is at least a documented and open format. Encumbered? Yes, somewhat. But it's not CLOSED. Ogg et al. would be the Perfect World Scenario, but this is real life, and MS/WMV is the enemy. MPEG-4 is the practical solution for the time being. |
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Btw, Apple engineer post on why it broke to begin with. Oh, no argument there, I was only talking about QuickTime support. Quote:
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Join Date: May 2004
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Cool beans, thanks. My whiner OSS friends can eat crow now.
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Paris, France
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
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As for the rest, I guess I wasn't clear again. I'm only interested in my iPod, not Quicktime as a whole. Is there a plugin system for the iPod? Not that I've heard of. I end up using a good bit of open source software, but I'm no zealot. I'm definitely not a FSF type. I'd pay cold hard cash for a legit plugin (closed source is fine) that would allow my iPod to play Ogg Vorbis (and iTunes to manage it). So maybe that's what I should be asking for? Plugin-ability for the iPod? EDIT: BTW, I really don't think that allowing the iPod to play Vorbis is going to really hurt the war against WMA/WMV. If anything, having other legit codecs out there HELPS in the war against WMA/WMV. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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In theory, I agree with you. In reality, I think that anything takes the focus away from pushing MPEG-4/H.264/AAC as hard as possible as a UNIFIED front against WMV/WMA is only going to make MS happy. "See how fractured the rest of the market is? Let us give you the one unified solution."
MPEG-4 as a container gives a huge variety of open plugin codec possibilities. (QT was the model for the MPEG-4 format.) If we can get MPEG-4 to thrash WMV, *THEN* the codec world is opened up, and the Ogg family can step right on up. But yes, this is harder to do for dedicated playback devices that are closed units, like the iPod. Unfortunately, I don't see the iPod offering WMA support... and for good reason. The more WMA files there are out there, the more it looks like a viable format moving forward. It is in all our best interests to not have that happen. Apple is in a unique position right now, with the runaway most popular music player, to migrate millions of users away from WMA and to AAC... ie, part of the MPEG-4 family. MP3 support is fine, because it's quickly turning into a legacy codec, and also because it isn't part of WMV. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Vorbis isn't in the same boat, IMO. You have this idea that MP4 is going to thrash WMA, but it's never going to happen. Yeah, it's better, but since when has that mattered? The fact of the matter is that Microsoft is going to make WMA / WMV the default in everything it does. The sheer number of uninformed consumers out there means that WMA will always have the numerical advantage. THAT means that we need as many strong alternatives as possible. If we don't want WMA to win (and I sure don't), then we need to show that it's not a standard. Microsoft is sure as heck never going to recognize MPEG-4 / AAC as a standard, even if it's the best hands down. Last edited by Anthem : 2005-10-23 at 22:39. |
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In order to compete with something boldly and (hopefully) successfully, you want to agree on one choice, rather than providing lots of different, confusing, hardly distinguishable options. |
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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Last edited by Anthem : 2005-10-23 at 22:53. |
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