Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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The historical significance, the wars, Arab Spring, where we go from here as a nation and as western nations in general, the politicians, angry muslims, peaceful muslims, Israelis and Palestinian connections and importance, all of it goes here. Discuss the rebirth of the place in the other thread. Figured it would be good, since the TV is starting to overflow with shows about the topic, to compartmentalize the two different aspects of the discussion.
...into the light of a dark black night. |
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Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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Let's see: Arab spring has nothing to do with religion; just a divestment of the region from its dictatorial/autocratic regimes which arose from policies of European and American nations during the cold war.
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Moogs, any thoughts of your own, to ignite a discussion?
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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Sure. I didn't want to color the discussion by directing it one way or another but here are a few thoughts I have:
Military Policy It's time (past time actually) to redefine what "the war on terror" means. I think we've seen pretty clearly that: a) you can't fight a traditional war (where there is a winner and loser) against people who are largely running around in the back alleys of cities, and mountains of Whereveristan. We entered World War II in 1942 (effectively), and by August 1945 it was over. Think about that. Three and half years. We've been in Iraq (now slowly but steadily paring down forces there as the situation has stabilized) for almost 3x as long, same with Afghanistan. And yet, we have a more unstable / unpredictable result. Was it worth it? Will five more years be worth it? Ten more? b) we've captured or killed many of the "chiefs" in our enemy's networks, but as we have found out, there's always someone ready to take the chief's place. Who we're fighting is more akin to a hodge-podge of gangs linked across international borders, than any type of militia or army. There will never be talk of surrender or armistice with these people, because there is no central authority among them. Moreover they don't think the way we think about things. There is no defeat. It's carry out the mission or die trying (literally) and make sure your sons do the same thing. There’s no sense of “well if x, y and z happen… we’re finished and must admit defeat.” The question is, when do "we the people" say "enough"? Are we willing to accept that the only kind of indefinite war we can afford to fight (if we're committed to constant vigilance - and it seems we are), is a "war behind the scenes". Constant intel-sharing with other countries and agencies, small spec ops missions, drone and cruise-missile based airstrikes that might take place anywhere in the world (not a declared battleground)? I think I am prepared to accept that. I am also prepared to admit that I will never be totally safe because I live in a free country. If it’s easy for me to get around and communicate with people, it’s easy for my enemies, unfortunately. That’s just the way it is. Mosque down the street from Ground Zero Not a fan. First, I thought it was supposed to be a community center for all faiths, not a mosque, but now it seems that the community center chap has bailed and the owner of the building is just going to fight to have a regular mosque put there. That by itself bugs me because it smacks of "bait-and-switch". It's one thing to build a religious center where all faiths can come to pray and interact, another entirely just to slap a mosque down there. Legally, you can make the argument they have the right to do it. However I find it disrespectful and frankly wonder how obtuse the building owner and whoever steps in to build a mosque, are as people. You want to be part of the community and promote inter-faith dialogs (allegedly)? A-OK! But… is it so bad to suggest that you might want to do that another few blocks down the road? They’re damaging their own cause IMO. Swallow your damn pride and build it a little further away where the emotional wounds aren’t so raw. Generally I think the only way we’ll look back on this in 20 years and say “I’m glad that era is over and that the world is no longer threatened by muslim extremism,” is if the muslim leaders themselves (the non-violent type who want everyone to have jobs, get a vote, live in peace, etc) will have to do the heavy lifting. To me the Arab Spring is at least a sign that this is possible. That there are thousands of people who will fight for their basic rights to live a normal life and not be threatened by governments or coerced by muslim tribes or sects to comply with their agenda. Logic or political ideals cannot be imposed on these people from the outside, least of all from us or Britain or other western countries. Also, I am going to burn the flag of the first (western) country that caves to political correctness and allows Sharia law to be enforced alongside real law that the rest of the citizens have lived by. Separation of Church and State must (ironically) be “sacred”. That first domino must never be allowed to fall or things will go from bad to much worse in a hurry. Some in England almost tried to promote this idea a couple years back, including the numbnut Archbishop of Canterbury. If you’re muslim and you find our western laws objectionable, STAY HOME. You want to live among us and integrate with our societies and share your stories or whatnot… live by our laws like everyone else. No one will prevent you from worshipping, but nor should anyone tolerate you beating your wife because you believe she is unfaithful or impure, or stoning your neighbor for stealing or whatever. Our countries are not a "legal free-for-all"; you don't get to impose your own laws by acting as judge and jury for every incident. We have laws and courts and juries and appeals and the rest. Get used to it. I don't feel arrogant in the least when I proclaim, in this respect, "our way is better". A lot better. And not just for us, for you too if you'll only open your mind a bit and trust that the system works better than the ones you know. ...into the light of a dark black night. Last edited by Moogs : 2011-08-30 at 14:45. |
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Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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Moogs:
I have yet to hear a coherent rational why a mosque even on the site of the two towers would be disrespectful. Care to provide one? Or is it just a truthiness feeling? No one would blink twice about a church being built on the site of the OK city bombing, and yet Tim McVeigh was a 'christian soldier'. There were Muslim victims of 9/11. I don't see any reason for the disconnect between these two cases. |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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Hitler! Joos! Rule 34! Egg noodles!
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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What's Rule 34? Was that written by His Noodly Appendage? (Or maybe with ... His Noodly Appendage? I'm not clear on proper phrasing.)
Bobsky: there is no truthiness or falsiness involved, such as with math equations and non-governmental, non-Wall-Street accounting principles. It's a subjective thing. Ask 20 people you're likely to get at least... 4 different answers. Like I said, legally... there's no argument. To me it boils down to, IF your objective is to promote healing and bond with the community, THEN you would be unwise to build a mosque that close to the WTC, because what you're going to do is anger and frustrate and alienate the very people who you want to communicate with in a serious way and have them understand you better. Maybe I'm insane for thinking that. I've been called worse. Now, if it turns out that the mosque doesn't happen and what does happen is an inter-faith community center (perhaps sponsored by a mosque somewhere else in the city), where anyone feels welcome and there are community events / talks held, I don't have a problem with that. That seems like a positive thing. And no, I don't think there should be any religious institution built on the site of any tragic attack (Pearl Harbor, OK City, Ground Zero, etc). Nor do I think anyone would suggest it, so it's sort of a disingenuous argument you're advocating there (devil's advocate I mean). I suspect you don't literally believe it's a good idea. ...into the light of a dark black night. |
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I don't actually care, and that's just it, I don't care nor should anyone else.
It isn't relevant to anything either for us the peanut gallery, the people of NY, the victims and their families... it just doesn't matter; just like it does matter that there was a Dutch grave yard near the site, and before that an indian burial ground (probably). It doesn't matter that slaves lived and died on the docks where the site is. It doesn't matter that planes crashed into two buildings there and killed a little more than 3000 people. It doesn't matter. Commemorating the event as we have chosen to doesn't prevent it from recurring which is what we should be focusing on doing. Letting a Mosque be built, and engendering a respect from Muslims everywhere does fractionally make things better. So, really, who the fuck cares? Making things difficult for peaceful people is no way to stop wars. Letting rage and bigotry guide our policies is a good way to start them. |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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And bad tower design. Let us not forget that all designers are deep-down angry people capable of anything.
I will not put a winky-face here. No I won't. So it goes. |
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geri to my friends
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Heaven
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Tftfy.
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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A for effort.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Jersey
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I think it's beautiful and rather in tune with the spirit of America that there can be a mosque near the World Trade Center site. Tolerance is near the core of American philosophy, and I like this. I don't think it's insensitive at all. Those people were terrorists first, brainwashed second. They were informed by a corrupted strain of a major world religion. Any voluminous and literary teaching, like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is subject to interpretation, and interpretation + an agenda can yield very powerful results.
It's also a big fuck-you to the kind of sociopaths that misuse the teaching of a peaceful religion, to me. Here's a place for normal, peaceful Muslims to worship. They're just as appalled at terrorism and violence as the rest of us. Ale, man, ale's the stuff to drink For fellows whom it hurts to think |
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Last edited by Brave Ulysses : 2011-08-30 at 22:13. |
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I shot the sherrif.
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Meh, IMO the whole mosque thing was manufactured news/rage. I don't think it was all that honest. Some conservative radio people got a chubby for the issue, and brought it to the angry masses.
Plus, how many feet are enough feet before you're being "respectful"? 100 feet, 500 1,000? 10,000? Google is your frenemy. Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Honestly, I'm more worried in 2011 about Christians taking my rights away in this country than Muslims.
I saw a poll recently that said the Tea Party was less popular than Muslims and atheists, and I thought to myself, what a sad inditement of America that Muslims and atheists are expected to breath a sigh of relief after learning they are not the most hated groups in America. Go team. |
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Less than Stellar Member
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So your reason for not wanting a mosque near the WTC site is because of...political correctness? Really?
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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Don't know if you're talking to me but no. If you go back and look my reasoning has to do with accomplishing the objective (so stated anyway by some parties) of mending fences and bringing a better understanding among people of faiths, who are tied to that neighborhood by a very emotional event. I think it's a noble goal, and I also think they're going about it the wrong way, even if they DO have the right to build a mosque there. And they do. No question about that. To me I guess you could say it's a question of pragmatism and common sense, given the stated goals. ...into the light of a dark black night. Last edited by Moogs : 2011-08-31 at 10:56. |
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More ink has been shed on this subject than needs to have been. |
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Fishhead Family Reunited
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Slightly Off Center
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I really like the way Jon Stewart put it: If you abandon your values at the first moment they're tested, they're not values, they're hobbies. |
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Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean you should always do it. This mosque was simply a way for one man with an ego to try to make a point and raise all these issues. He's not interested in building community or showing compassion. |
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I shot the sherrif.
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If it really were about ego and shoving something down people's throats, I would have expected the publicity much sooner. However, I might be wrong about when/how this topic started becoming an "issue" at a national or NY state level. Google is your frenemy. Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me |
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it wasn't conservative radio, although they definitely fanned the flames without a doubt. the issue inevitably came up when the proposal was brought before community boards and NY papers covered the story and the proposal. Are you saying that if this just sprung up one day without anyone noticing, that after it was built, no one would have been upset? All buildings go through a review process, and a public review process. it blew up to a national level after it was a big NY issue. it blew up even further once the president weighed in. Going back to billybobsky's inappropriate comments... I try not to tell people how they are suppose to feel. There are a lot of people offended by this. A lot of those people have suffered greatly. I know legally they have a right to build a mosque 2 blocks from the WTC site, but that doesn't mean they should do it, especially after such a strong public backlash. Plus, why build a mosque there anyway? it's a business district. Surely a mosque would better serve an actual community where people live. it's very much a case of one man, proving a point. Legally, sure, build it. But I would hope some common sense would play into that decision too. Last edited by Brave Ulysses : 2011-08-31 at 09:54. |
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Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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No, I am not out of line. The people who don't want a Mosque near the WTC site are not thinking rationally. They should be ignored, and hopefully will be.
As for not telling people how to feel: that doesn't work when people have feelings that are destructive to civil society. Bigots should be told that their thoughts and feelings are wrong. To be sure, the people who actively oppose this project and are seeking state interference limiting the freedoms of the organizers are bigots; they are wrong. |
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Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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That would be an ad hom... bye bye BU...
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Just to make it clear that you are wrong: I am not a moral relativist. Not everyone's ideas/feelings are worthy of full support -- the evaluation of an idea starts with simple rules: is it rational (ie founded on logic and supported facts), does it or action derived from it impinge on freedoms to individuals granted by law; etc.
The feelings of the people who are against this development are not rational, and as you freely point out actions derived from those feelings impinge on the freedom of the organizers of the cultural center. Thus these people's ideas and viewpoints are easily, and completely dismissed. They should shut up and back down because they are wrong. |
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I shot the sherrif.
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http://www.salon.com/news/politics/w...mosque_origins
Is the Salon timeline inaccurate then? I couldn't find any real negative press until May 2010. |
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I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: Dec 2005
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you are wrong, and as much of a bigot as those who you criticize may be.
That is all. Arguing on the interweb is stupid. |
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