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Interesting article about Apple's recent software missteps...


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Interesting article about Apple's recent software missteps...
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2015-01-05, 16:35

Not a fan of the guy (how can one person be so obnoxious and snobby about coffee, of all things?), but Marco Arment's latest post about Apple (found via DF) has some excellent points.

I've been saying a lot of these things for some time now, but it's nice to see someone else (with more of a following/voice) wonder about them as well.

To many of us here - go read through the Yosemite and iOS 8 threads in Apple Products - something has changed a bit. Nothing's ever perfect, but it's hard to deny that things, software-wise, seem a bit more un-perfect now than any other period during the Jobs/iEra/post-PC timeframe.
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alcimedes
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2015-01-05, 16:39

The problem is they're moving 'forward' without ensuring that the good things they've done in the past cotinue to function as well as adding the new features.

Instead they're breaking shit while rolling out features no one has really been asking for.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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kieran
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2015-01-05, 16:41

I enjoy listening & reading Marco's stuff, so the reaction comes as no surprise.

Hacker News blows up every time he writes anything. It's crazy.

I do agree with most of what he's saying though. Apple just seems like they need to take a step back and slow the train down a bit. There's really no need to release 37 new features with every release.

No more Twitter. It's Mastodon now.
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Ebby
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2015-01-05, 19:03

Yup, I totally agree too.

iLife, Final Cut, Aperture, etc. People used those because they were revolutionary or powerful applications. They brought your Average-Joes and professionals to Apple because these top-tier apps worked great.

But a programmer drought swept through and strong apps withered and dried up. Pro apps got dumbed down or abandoned. Remember that feeling back in the day when you WANTED iLife? Now the biggest reason to use those apps is "because it's there".

There is a giant hole in Apple's offerings for serious, advanced applications. I hope they throw a little fraction of that iMoney™ Apple hoards at this problem and start that innovation engine again.

^^ One more quality post from the desk of Ebby. ^^
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
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2015-01-05, 19:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
The problem is they're moving 'forward' without ensuring that the good things they've done in the past cotinue to function as well as adding the new features.

Instead they're breaking shit while rolling out features no one has really been asking for.
Exactly. That's just how I feel. Make sure everything works (the stuff that's been there, long before all this "cloud" shit or whatever), and then add new stuff on top.

Frankly, the "marquee features" in the most recent iOS and OS X releases haven't been anything all that special (or that I couldn't live without). But they seemed to have added some complexity or trickiness to things because, in general, it just seems like I'm having to fidget and fool with stuff now more than ever. And, mind you, stuff that I never had to monkey with before.

For example, I've had more email goofiness the past six or so months than I have since getting my primary iTools email ages ago. Stuff doesn't push, stuff gets pushed twice, sending can be a dice-roll, the syncing/matching between Mac and iPhone, etc.

And bear in mind, I've had the same "...@mac.com" email address/Apple ID for 12+ years. It's not like I just got my first iPhone in September and I'm trying to get some Gmail/Hotmail/AOL/Earthlink stuff to work with it. I'm one of those "day one" guys...same (Apple!) email/ID/username since dinosaurs roamed the earth. In theory, I should have less trouble with this stuff than most. But, here lately, it's just flaky and unpredictable as can be sometimes. It's not my fault/doing...I haven't changed anything (same iMac since September 2008, same iPhone 5 since October 2012).

It's not me, it's them. Right?

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drewprops
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2015-01-05, 20:09

It's funny how as LONGtime Apple fans we can still be downvoted in public arenas like reddit when constructively criticizing the company.

Here are some of the Apple apps that have been turned into mush, what am I leaving off?



QuickTime Pro (hasn't been updated since version 7)

Aperture (dead, they're turning us over to Adobe and it's Lightroom app)

iPhoto (*)

Soundtrack Pro (discontinued)

GarageBand (some features of Soundtrack)

Final Cut Pro X (the magnetic timeline is weird, the interface cluttered on a laptop)

iMovie (I hate using it)

Pages (it's nice if you don't have to work in the real world)

Numbers (Excel is more powerful, but not as pretty)

Keynote (better than Keynote in most every way, except that some industries are embedded Microsoft users and cant' touch the files)



...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
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2015-01-05, 20:39

Oooh, you mentioning iPhoto with the asterisk reminds me...we should be getting something new in that area sometime soon, huh? I forgot all about that...Photos, it's called? They're certainly holding that one close to the vest, because they haven't said crap about it since about WWDC or so.

I guess it's going to be one of the default apps preinstalled on the Apple watch?

Just kidding. I think.

But you know what? I'm not demanding/pushing for them to "hurry up" because that doesn't seem to be their strong point lately.

Take your time, Apple. I believe I speak for everyone when I say we'd much rather have a polished app in April-May than a polished turd in January. Don't do us any favors on the "released too soon" front, thanks.

It'll be interesting to see what it's all about. I wonder how many of my photos it'll delete/corrupt upon install?





That's not one damn bit funny, and I probably shouldn't say it out loud.

Like I said...take your time, Apple. I kinda like my photos. Got a few thousand of them that I don't want gobbled up by some crazy, half-ass release. Test its brains out before you turn it loose on the world.

Signed,
Everybody
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Ebby
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2015-01-05, 22:11

I'm also waiting for the Photos app. I think this app will set a benchmark for Apple software to come.

I've been an advanced Aperture user since it was released and really hope it wows me. New apps can be cool and fun, but I hesitate because "New" is sometimes Apple lingo for "limited" (*ahem* FCPX launch) and I want Photos to be, at a minimum, as capable as the app it replaces.

Apple, no lost features please.

^^ One more quality post from the desk of Ebby. ^^
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
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2015-01-05, 22:47

Tall order...yikes!
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Ebby
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2015-01-06, 03:26

Haha yeah I know.

Like I said, we need a "WOW" from Apple. *Crosses fingers*
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alcimedes
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2015-01-06, 09:46

The old version of Pages is still vastly superirior to the new version for doing actual work. The only drawback is the cloud integration.

So many little things like that. Just slow down and get your shit in order, then when everything is smooth and silky, then release your "ooh, neato" feature, whatever it is.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
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2015-01-06, 11:03

The neat thing - possibly - about Photos is that, in theory, it was developed from the ground-up, with both iOS and OS X in mind. So hopefully, out of the gate, it'll be a matched, quality bit of software (and the desktop version isn't hobbled just so it can play nicer with the iOS version).

I'd like to think that they took all the lessons from the desktop and iOS iPhoto, and the recent iLife and iWork desktop/mobile hassles and are looking to do this one right, from the get-go.

Tired of these initial releases being first-beta-level quality. People won't stand for their photos being monkeyed with, so they better be super-sure before this thing gets released. That's a huge undertaking, replacing a 12-year warhorse with an all-new thing. I know people - just regular consumer-level, non-geek folks like my mom and others - who have 5,000-8,000(!) pics in their iPhoto libraries. They're not looking for a big c.f. on this.

Talk about class action lawsuits and bad PR! Apple doesn't need that black eye.

Two years ago, I would've installed Photos the minute it hit the App Store. Now? I'm waiting at least a week or so (and so is everyone I know). I'm not guinea-pigging this one. I don't have a ton of photos, but if they got messed up in any way I'd really be pissed. And, frankly, Apple's record here lately is the direct reason for this. I simply don't trust them to put out a brand-new, Rev. A piece of software - an OS or a standalone app - that isn't at least 35-45% "WTF?!?" (and creates more problems/issues than it solves).

Breaks my heart to even say/acknowledge that. But it's true. Until they turn it around a bit and win my confidence back, I'm pretty much done with the first-day installs from them. All I've done is chase my tail and put out fires - on my Mac and iPhone and those of others - for the past 3-4 months. It's exhausting, and just zaps all the fun out of it.

If I wanted to be dealing with all this silly, aggravating shit on an ongoing basis, I'd save some money on the front-end and just buy a slightly-used HP with Windows XP or Vista.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2015-01-06 at 11:17.
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kieran
@kk@pennytucker.social
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2015-01-06, 11:16

I got so sick of Aperture this week I pushed everything to Lightroom. I know Photos.app is "coming soon," but that is just nonsense. There's been no indication of when "soon" is.

I've been checking the developer portal for news about it, but there's been nothing.

No more Twitter. It's Mastodon now.
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drewprops
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2015-01-06, 11:24

I just don't trust Apple anymore.

This is probably not so much a function of Apple changing as it is me changing.

You reach an age where you know what you like, why you like it, and what you don't like and cannot abide with, and the moment you move into that age is when younger people begin to make fun of you for being inflexible.

But, time and experience do shape us, and once removed from the fire of our youth we begin to harden into the shape in which we've been hammered (by those same hammers, time and experience).

Sounds crazy to write this, but bless Microsoft and the stability and functionality of their office apps over the ages. While innovation may not have visited those apps with any frequency you at least know what you're getting when you invoke them.

I wish that someone high up at Apple was a lurker here and could bring this understanding to their software.

But, as has become the American tradition, products continue to be driven like sheep ahead of the shrieking, ever-morphing horde that is Youth.




The prosecution naps.


...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2015-01-06, 11:25

I think they first mentioned it at WWDC(?), and, as far as I know, that's pretty much been it. There's really nothing specific or helpful on their site, no real details, etc.

I made the joke last night about how it's being kept under wraps because it's probably tied to the Apple watch in some way...but now, the more I think about it...

Who knows? It's weird that it's such a mystery...everyone kinda knows what it's gonna do/be, so unless they've just really re-invented photo storage/editing/organizing, I can't imagine what's with all the hush-hush.

I forgot the exact timetable they said at WWDC ("early 2015" or something like that?). But as I said last night, I don't really give a crap if they miss it if it's not ready for primetime. If it doesn't come out until August, so be it. Good! I've got the latest version of iPhoto and it works perfectly, so it's not like anyone's sitting around with no options, or unable to store/organize their photos.

EDIT: good post, drew. I think that's definitely part of it. The stuff I don't put up with or "get" at 45 is a much longer list than it was when I was 25, that's for sure. But a lot of this is indeed at the feet of Apple, because for stuff that has worked flawlessly for years to suddenly not upon the introduction of the latest OS or whatever...that's on Apple. Don't be breaking long-standing "stuff that just works" to cram in some "feature(s)" that only 15% of the population could truly give shit about. That's what some of this feels like, lately.

It's almost as though they've peaked, functionality/stability-wise with iOS 6 and Mountain Lion...and the past two years have been "let's go for the buzzword checklists and pretty-fying updates now!"

I'm sorry, but while I like the overall cleaner, leaner look of iOS 7 and 8, the fact is that it's almost too clean and lean, and minimalist. It's not as obvious, and it's not as discoverable. I've had more emails and phones calls from iPhone-using friends and relative the past 16 or so months than I've had in five years.

"Hey, where is the..." and "Why can't I find the...", etc.

I don't think Ive knocked anything out of the park on the iOS 7/8 stuff, and I think some true functionality/ease-of-use was sacrificed for appearance and form-over-function. I truly do. I understand wanting to get rid of 5-6 year old real-world textures, depth, etc. That's fine. But it went a lot further than that in places, to the point of "how the hell does this work now?!"

And it's still not consistent or unified, I don't care how much they talk about how it is. The icons are a mess and all over the place, stylistically, there are still real-world textures/depth in places, etc. It looks like 3-4 different teams have worked on it and haven't seen each others contributions until it was unveiled on the WWDC keynote stage.

I truly, truly wouldn't mind one bit if OS X San Quentin and iOS 9 later this year introduced no new features/capabilities and, instead, focused solely on making the existing features and functions work as they should (and as easily and "no brainer" as they should), and to work on the overall unity/cohesion and "eye candy" (not add more, but fix what's there).

I sometimes wonder if all this is from the top? If Tim Cook, decent of a guy as he seems to be, is simply too affable, stoic and uninspiring to those below him, in the trenches? While Jobs' "boot on the neck" approach isn't ideal, it's hard for me to imagine this taking place under him. I know that whole thing's a cliché ("this wouldn't have happened with Steve..."), but think about it. Steve put the fear of God in people, and probably made it crystal clear what was "unacceptable", "crap", "amateur hour" and "embarrassing for the company". He seemed to take it all quite personally, from stories we've all read and heard. And not only that, I think Steve, if something truly wasn't ready to go (if iOS 7 or 8 or whatever wasn't matching what he thought it should be, he probably would've had the stones to say "well, we're not releasing the new iPhone in September this year...I don't give a damn what Wall Street says, we never promised anyone a set time-table...we'll release stuff when we believe it's ready. Period."

I don't know if Tim Cook has that in him. As much of a tyrant and nutball Steve seemed to be, I think he inspired "above and beyond" loyalty and dedication. Does Cook? I know everyone likes him, and he seems to be lacking the a-hole gene for the most part. But is it too much the other way? He certainly seems more socially conscious and aware of the "big picture", and putting a certain face on Apple. But I don't think he's an "into the weeds"/details or hands-on guy like Jobs. Engineers and designers at Apple probably know Tim isn't going to come into their studio/lab and kick stuff, scream, etc. and that "we're working hard on it, Tim" will likely meet with "okayyyyy...keep up the good work. Y'all are special..." more than not.



Whereas with Steve, it was probably more like "listen, you @%$#^! are not going to embarrass me on stage next month. If you can't pull this together, then let me know so we can find some people who can. Otherwise, we're going to push everything back and it's going to be YOUR fault!" And people worked 22-hour days and pulled off miracles. We don't know what was axed or left off due to "not ready...maybe next year". Now, it seems like "put it in, even if it's not fully-baked...we'll fix it in subsequent point updates."

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2015-01-06 at 19:09.
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kscherer
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2015-01-06, 12:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
The old version of Pages is still vastly superirior to the new version for doing actual work. The only drawback is the cloud integration.
So true it hurts! The new version is a kludge compared to the old. In fact, the old version's "share via email" has suddenly "stopped" working. I have to open the new version in order to share a doc via mail, or export it first, then dump it into mail. Absolutely no reason for a feature like this to stop working. However, I could care less about cloud integration, and am glad it's at least still an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
So many little things like that. Just slow down and get your shit in order, then when everything is smooth and silky, then release your "ooh, neato" feature, whatever it is.
It's all about feature parity with the iPad. The new version of pages was stripped of all its former glory because the iPad couldn't handle the truth. The new version is a jacktastic pile of crap! It's lowest-common-denominator thinking. Rather than bring the iPad up to the Mac's level of sophistication, they are dragging the Mac down to the iPad's level.

"No Computer Left Behind"!!

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Wrao
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2015-01-06, 23:14

My two cents is that they make the conscious decision of: "We can always patch software later". Their priorities then shift to making the hardware as good as it can be, but then (as this post and several in this thread have touched on) the hardware is also the 'main event' for acquiring new business and securing customers and as a result it naturally absorbs the bulk of all marketing and attention.

The frustrating thing is that this decision *is* the right decision to make given the choice between the two as things currently stand. Users will put up with a lot before they finally decide to change hardware/platforms and as long as you can fix the biggest issues or show at least some commitment to ongoing development a lot of people will 'short memory' and start to come around again.

The ultimate solution(aside from perhaps just hiring a lot more people and maybe reworking their internal corporate culture) is to slow down their hardware releases a bit and not be afraid to even postpone them if the software is still half-baked. But this is untenable in the extremely competitive market where any misstep on the hardware front can and will give Samsung and others a leg up for that year.

I think it is also worth noting though that it really isn't Apple's problem alone. We're seeing this same sort of thing happening with popular apps like Twitter or Facebook or Instagram. Or remember when the Galaxy S4 was new and it had this enormous cache of new Samsung software that reviews pretty universally panned as being underdeveloped and clumsy. Or look at gaming and how often major releases require 'day zero' patches just to even work and that even after paying full price the game isn't really 'done' until it's had a year or two of development and some DLCs thrown on.

I think we're seeing rushed, unfinished, problematic, unpolished software across the industry really. Even Google who has a longstanding reputation for making killer web apps, I've damn near stopped using them entirely for the amount of dumb stuff they've started doing and the absurd amounts of system resources a lot of their stuff takes(while being no less performant necessarily).

What sucks about it, the industry-wide issue of software blight, is that pretty much all of these companies still win either way. They're operating in 'it's better to beg forgiveness than ask permission' mentality and for so many of these things they are 'free' services that no one is forcing you to use or that you choose to engage with or that are buoyed by other revenue streams to where it is less vital for them to even focus on them in the first place. Meanwhile the timing of it all works in their favor because the amount of time it might take someone to finally have the proverbial 'enough' and boycott that company(as if boycotting would even mean anything...) can be long enough that the company'll fix problems just enough to renew your confidence that maybe things will 'get better' or whatever.
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Ryan
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2015-01-07, 00:20

A lot of the software guys in these companies cut their teeth at startups where shipping unfinished software is just part of the ethos. A necessary part, mind you. A lot of the software teams at Google, Twitter and Facebook come from acquihires of startups that showed they could ship, just not turn a profit. Unfortunately that doesn't necessarily mean that had to get all that far past the MVP stage.
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_Ω_
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2015-01-07, 01:33

You early adopters make me laugh when you moan about teething issues.

/still rocking the G5 PPC
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Mugge
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2015-01-08, 12:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by kieran View Post
(...) Apple just seems like they need to take a step back and slow the train down a bit. There's really no need to release 37 new features with every release.
Or they should focus instead of trying to cover all bases. One of the first things Jobs did when he returned to Apple was to cut the sprawling product line down to a just four categories )iMac, iBook, Power Book, Power Mac). Sure Apples resources are astronomical compared to back then, but the critical resources (genius employees) are probably not so astronomical in numbers and the more other people and products they need to make their products work with, the less time they will have to do actual genius work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
(...)

But you know what? I'm not demanding/pushing for them to "hurry up" because that doesn't seem to be their strong point lately.

Take your time, Apple. I believe I speak for everyone when I say we'd much rather have a polished app in April-May than a polished turd in January. Don't do us any favors on the "released too soon" front, thanks.

(...)
Totally agree with you. And seen in this light the yearly drum beat release schedule sure looks like a liability more than a competitive advantage.

And yeah, the apps formerly known as iWork a pretty much a lame duck these days. Good thing MS got their act together and made Office decent again.
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Kraetos
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2015-01-12, 21:31

We really need a "Snow Yosemite" for the next release. iOS too. No new features, polish what's already there. Normally when the Apple blogosphere gets their panties in this kind of knot they are whinging about things that 98% of people never even notice much less care about, but that's not what's happening this time. Many of the casual Mac and iPhone users I know have noticed that iOS 8 and Yosemite are very buggy by Apple's standards.

Android 5 is a great release and everything I've heard about Windows 10 indicates that it's shaping up to be a stellar release as well. Gone are the days of the mid-2000s when Apple was competing with a bunch of morons, and a garbage release like Lion flew because the alternative was cringe Vista. Google and Nadella's Microsoft should not be taken lightly.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
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psmith2.0
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2015-01-12, 22:06

I've been saying/wishing that for a while. Don't give us a new OS X and iOS with a bunch of crazy buzzword-y type "features" (that nobody is asking for, and likely won't work perfectly anyway) until the current stuff is addressed and tightened up a good bit. And hell yes, it does need it. If you're not experiencing weird, random and inexplicable goofiness (and stuff that has worked perfectly and seamlessly for years no longer doing so), then God bless your soul. Count yourself among the lucky, I guess.

I'm all for an "under the hood"/stability/functionality-focused release on both platforms if that's what it took to make everyone happy (and to get all my friends and relatives off my back, and no longer calling or emailing me weekly with new, goofy gripes and issues). I'm exhausted!

I missed the days of "it just works". And it wasn't that long ago.

I think it's interesting that it kinda hit the fan upon Forstall's departure and Ive taking over the software design stuff as well. The rumblings (and big changes, some of them for the sake of change, IMO) began with iOS 7 and Mavericks 18 months ago, but really went over the cliff this past autumn with iOS 8 and Yosemite. There's some neat stuff there, but at what kind of trade-off? An unacceptable one, as far as I'm concerned.

Stuff that always used to work should do so. Period. I don't give a shit why it doesn't, that's not my problem to solve. But "progress" isn't introducing a bunch of new stuff at the expense of what has always performed beautifully. Quit trying to fondle my eyeballs with all this new "design" and eye candy if the underlying, expected functions and stability aren't coming along for the ride. Otherwise, why bother?

A turd with a new coat of paint and tweaked appearance is still a turd.

Change the turd into a Hershey bar, and then give that the new, fresh design and look. But make sure the underlying stuff is acting the way it's supposed to, first and foremost.
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Wrao
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2015-01-13, 03:36

Speaking of software missteps. iMovie continues to be shitty for me. It's marginally better in the latest version, some of the layout things are improved and the interface handles itself better but it also crashes on me fairly frequently and just now has been refusing to export my movie giving me a different error message each time. Rebooting seems to have fixed it, but it's just so commonplace for iMovie to be shitty in some way or another just about every time I use it and... oh look it failed the export again with yet another error code. That's 4 different errors now.

And it's not even like I'm trying to make a complicated video, literally just trimmed a bit off something and enhanced the image a little, no edits or cuts or segments or anything fancy but it always manages to fuck up somehow.

Finally worked, 5th time is the charm I guess. Funny how the notification for a successful export is the same as for a failed one save for the change 'success' to 'failed'
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