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torifile
Less than Stellar Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Durham, NC
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2013-02-07, 07:30

If I'm not mistaken, all Diesel engines in the US use urea for emissions. I haven't had an issue in my current diesel and I don't see why anyone thinks its a big deal. Can someone enlighten me?

If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong.
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Dorian Gray
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Paris, France
 
2013-02-07, 08:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
What you mean by packaging though? Physical size? The LS3 is fairly compact. It's smaller and lighter than Ford's 5.0 liter V8. It's also a tad smaller if not the same size as BMW's 4.0 liter V8 in the E92 M3.
Yes: small size for a given peak-power requirement.

The GM small-block engine may be smaller than some lower-displacement engines (the clue’s in the name, eh?), but that’s a bit like saying some dogs are smaller than cats. It doesn’t disprove the trend.

By the way, off the top of my head I can’t name a country that still taxes displacement. Car makers – at least European car-makers – aren’t downsizing to meet displacement taxes; they’re downsizing to increase fuel efficiency. Fuel economy is less important in the US market than elsewhere, and for reasons I cannot understand American car-buyers seem to be more price-sensitive. So downsizing, which results in fuel-efficient but expensive engines, might take a while to catch on in the US.

Still, downsizing is coming to the US too. Ford (as American as companies get) won its first International Engine of the Year award a few months ago for its new 1.0-litre three-cylinder petrol, and reading between the lines, it’s clear that that engine is aimed at the US market too.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2013-02-07, 09:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Subaru seems to carry this bad mindset with it but I'm not sure why. As far as I can tell they have the best MPG for AWD vehicles. The Impreza is 36MPG highway.... Outback is 30MPG... both much higher than their competition.

I did the conversion from km/liter myself so it should be as accurate as I am (which may very well be inaccurate )
I see what you are saying to an extent. The new Impreza is a lot better than the previous one. It's just the previous cars could've been better. They were still using 4 speed autos up until a year ago in the Forester which was a travesty really for a company like that. But I'm just glad they survived being partially owned by GM. That's traditionally been a death sentence!

Last edited by addison : 2013-02-07 at 09:27.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2013-02-07, 09:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile View Post
If I'm not mistaken, all Diesel engines in the US use urea for emissions. I haven't had an issue in my current diesel and I don't see why anyone thinks its a big deal. Can someone enlighten me?
I guess they are worried about servicing. I know the MB ones usually get topped off when in for an oil change but to fill the entire tank costs a few hundred bucks. I think a tankful lasts 10 or 12K miles or something like that.
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Dorian Gray
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Paris, France
 
2013-02-07, 09:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
I did the conversion from km/liter myself
No need. Google does this too: just type in everything using official units and it'll spit out the answer. Example. (Were your calculations correct?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
I guess they are worried about servicing. I know the MB ones usually get topped off when in for an oil change but to fill the entire tank costs a few hundred bucks. I think a tankful lasts 10 or 12K miles or something like that.
Urea (called AdBlue in Europe) is cheaper than diesel. It would only cost a few hundred bucks to fill the tank if Mercedes-Benz is charging a massive markup for the service – which is possible, of course. But with more competition those costs would go down.

Diesel is a tricky proposition in the US. In any case, the differences between petrol and diesel engines are diminishing, with petrols adopting turbos, direct injection, stratified charge combustion, etc. In fact, since they are now so similar, the latest trend is for car companies to design petrol and diesel engines with a high degree of parts commonality, to reduce costs and even build petrols and diesels on the same production line (still rare).
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Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2013-02-07, 09:52

It's also easier to design a "Atkinson cycle" petrol engine for use with hybrid powertrains. A diesel engine would either need really tall gearing, or be removed from the actual drivetrain completely to be useful in typical people movers.
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AWR
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: State of Flux
 
2013-02-07, 09:55

With the all the knowledge here....

My wife's car will most likely need a replacement within the year. One of the top contenders is a Mercedes B class, 1.8l diesel. It's the right size for a second car, seems to get good combined mileage (4.6l/100 or 53 mpg, according to Google!). I'm a bit brand shy though, and tooling around in a new Merc would give both of us a "strange" feeling (I guess until the first decent road trip and then it might be a non-issue). Seems like a car that would have a good 15 years.

I haven't found time to take one for a test drive yet but wonder if anyone has any skinny on this car.

Other contenders could possibly include a Toyota or Honda Hybrid? Ford C-Max?

Edit: Priorities include safety, fuel economy, ride (comfort, handling), reliability.

Last edited by AWR : 2013-02-07 at 10:15.
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2013-02-07, 10:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian Gray View Post
Yes: small size for a given peak-power requirement.

The GM small-block engine may be smaller than some lower-displacement engines (the clue’s in the name, eh?), but that’s a bit like saying some dogs are smaller than cats. It doesn’t disprove the trend.
That's mostly due to the Small Block being OHV. DOHC engines of smaller displacement are physically bigger than OHV engines of bigger displacement. I'm not saying downsizing isn't happening. Just a lot of people have this misconception of the Small Block being a physically big engine. If it was a DOHC design, then yes it would be. But, OHV engines tend to be compact.

giggity
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Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2013-02-07, 10:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Subaru seems to carry this bad mindset with it but I'm not sure why. As far as I can tell they have the best MPG for AWD vehicles. The Impreza is 36MPG highway.... Outback is 30MPG... both much higher than their competition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
I see what you are saying to an extent. The new Impreza is a lot better than the previous one. It's just the previous cars could've been better. They were still using 4 speed autos up until a year ago in the Forester which was a travesty really for a company like that. But I'm just glad they survived being partially owned by GM. That's traditionally been a death sentence!
Subaru had some issues in the early 2000s. My parents had a 2002 Forester that required a very costly head gasket repair at only around 45k miles (in 2009; they bought it from an old couple who barely drove it at all). Several Subarus from that era had HG problems, which were made worse by their boxer engines (two HGs instead of one, and inaccessible on the sides requiring an engine pull rather than right on top like you'd have with an inline).

On top of that, the mileage was rather poor despite the car being quite small and cramped, and it was one of the most sluggish cars I've ever driven. Luckily, resale prices are insane even in light of today's ridiculously high used car prices, and they were able to sell it for more than they bought it for.

Obviously, most of those things have been fixed. New Foresters are quite a bit larger than theirs, and still get about the same fuel economy. I'm sure that awful transmission was mostly to blame for the sluggishness, and of course the rampant HG failures aren't there anymore. But if you're looking to save money by buying used, Subaru is about the worst way to go.
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Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2013-02-07, 11:31

Slightly off topic..... but car related

http://youtu.be/2jxq1B7NkhE

Ridiculous U-Turn attempt with bizarre traffic impacts.
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2013-02-07, 12:53

People complained that after 7 years, GM trucks didn't change that much. So are they going to complain about the 2014 Tundra? Besides a revised exterior and interior( ie. just a refresh, not a total redesign), it's still the same 7 year old truck underneath. Same frame, engines, transmission, etc. While the K2XX trucks are a very evolutionary redesign, at least they gained Gen V Small Blocks, a modified frame, etc......

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/07/2...-chicago-2013/

giggity
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Canadark
 
2013-02-07, 13:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Slightly off topic..... but car related

http://youtu.be/2jxq1B7NkhE

Ridiculous U-Turn attempt with bizarre traffic impacts.
There was enough people that they could have picked that little car up and just turned it on the spot.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2013-02-07, 17:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian Gray View Post
Urea (called AdBlue in Europe) is cheaper than diesel. It would only cost a few hundred bucks to fill the tank if Mercedes-Benz is charging a massive markup for the service – which is possible, of course. But with more competition those costs would go down.

Diesel is a tricky proposition in the US. In any case, the differences between petrol and diesel engines are diminishing, with petrols adopting turbos, direct injection, stratified charge combustion, etc. In fact, since they are now so similar, the latest trend is for car companies to design petrol and diesel engines with a high degree of parts commonality, to reduce costs and even build petrols and diesels on the same production line (still rare).
Sure. You can buy it at Wal Mart for around $12 for 2.5 gallons. The issue with Mercedes is that it requires the use of a scan tool to reset the system so that makes it a little hard for the owner to do. No surprise there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
Subaru had some issues in the early 2000s. My parents had a 2002 Forester that required a very costly head gasket repair at only around 45k miles (in 2009; they bought it from an old couple who barely drove it at all). Several Subarus from that era had HG problems, which were made worse by their boxer engines (two HGs instead of one, and inaccessible on the sides requiring an engine pull rather than right on top like you'd have with an inline).
That problem can actually be found in Subies up until 2009 believe it or not. They were actually helping people with the cost if it happened really early and if you could prove proper maintenance. They also started to recommend a coolant conditioner. A big issue was those cars had a rigorous schedule for coolant changes. Every 30K miles which is pretty extreme but contaminated coolant is a prime cause of HG failure with that engine. Most people won't follow that which increases the risk. As you know it's an expensive repair but it should be a one time job if done right. Aside from that they aren't bad cars.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2013-02-07, 17:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWR View Post
With the all the knowledge here....

My wife's car will most likely need a replacement within the year. One of the top contenders is a Mercedes B class, 1.8l diesel. It's the right size for a second car, seems to get good combined mileage (4.6l/100 or 53 mpg, according to Google!). I'm a bit brand shy though, and tooling around in a new Merc would give both of us a "strange" feeling (I guess until the first decent road trip and then it might be a non-issue). Seems like a car that would have a good 15 years.

I haven't found time to take one for a test drive yet but wonder if anyone has any skinny on this car.

Other contenders could possibly include a Toyota or Honda Hybrid? Ford C-Max?

Edit: Priorities include safety, fuel economy, ride (comfort, handling), reliability.
The latest B Class looks pretty nice but how much is it? I think the new Golf is out over there which isn't too different and I would assume be a little cheaper. The C Max is nice too. I want to say it's bigger than the B Class but I'm not sure by looking at the pictures. Might as well check out the Koreans as well. The Hyundai i30 and i40 look pretty nice.
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AWR
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: State of Flux
 
2013-02-08, 03:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
The latest B Class looks pretty nice but how much is it? I think the new Golf is out over there which isn't too different and I would assume be a little cheaper. The C Max is nice too. I want to say it's bigger than the B Class but I'm not sure by looking at the pictures. Might as well check out the Koreans as well. The Hyundai i30 and i40 look pretty nice.
I'm not sure how much a B class would cost, at all! Obviously, there might be a huge discrepancy between it and other worthy contenders. I believe the base price is reasonable enough, but once you start adding options that can quickly change. Luckily enough, certain car manufacturers give attractive discounts to some employees of my employer (and tax free in any event). This would include especially Mercedes and BMW, but not Audi and Volkswagen for some reason. I wouldn't be looking at these marks, which make me feel oddly self-conscious, and never mind the idea of laying out excessively for "it's only a car", if that wasn't the case. All this means is that I think a Golf and B series will end up costing around the same options being equal. A friend who bought a 1.4l Golf a couple of years ago was extremely pleased when it was new but he is surprised at how quickly he feels it wearing down overall. I'd like to avoid that sensation if possible.

I'ma look into hybrids too, but my sense of initial cost vs payback vs servicing vs ??? is presently nil. Maybe I should go back and read some earlier pages in this thread.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2013-02-10, 14:59

Looks like Ram is getting back into the lucrative van game with the Promaster after losing the Sprinter a few years ago. Obviously a FIAT design. Ford has the new Connect too which leaves GM with the ancient Express. Nissan also rolled out a Transit Connect competitor too.


And GM finally made the Cruze diesel official at the Chicago Autoshow. Price is around $25k and auto only and mpg around mid 40s. Of course they are doing what VW does and throw everything in there and charge a big markup.
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2013-02-11, 00:58

So when VW introduced the current-gen Beetle, one of my only complaints was that my favorite color (yellow) wasn't available with a leather interior. (Neither is my second favorite color, denim blue.) The leather interior is only available on the top-trim turbo model, and the turbo model swaps yellow and denim blue for more subdued hues. I feel fairly strongly that moving to higher trims should only result in additional options, not subtracted ones. Only making the yellow paint color available on the cheaper non-turbo models makes very little sense to me.

But, finally, it's possible to get a yellow Beetle with a leather interior:



Volkswagen is bringing back the Beetle GSR (Gelb Schwarzer Renner, or "Yellow Black Racer"). It's based on the Beetle Turbo, and is actually up ten horses (to 210) over that model. It's limited to 3500 units, and no pricing has been announced.

I don't normally say this, but HNNNNNGGG.
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AWR
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: State of Flux
 
2013-02-11, 05:45

^^^ Awesome. I imagine that would be nice to punch around in.
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Dorian Gray
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Paris, France
 
2013-02-12, 10:05

Hey, yellow’s my favourite colour too. (I sold that scooter last year, and the new owner crashed it twice within a month. )

What’s up with the Fiat Ducato being sold under the Ram brand? I would have thought Ram, of all brands, would have home-made vans better suited to the needs of American customers. Not that the Ducato is a bad van, of course: it’s actually very good, and sold under a bunch of brands in Europe. But I would have thought Americans would turn their noses up at a front-wheel-drive van of that size.

Last edited by Dorian Gray : 2013-02-12 at 10:16. Reason: typo
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2013-02-12, 10:38

The Sprinter has been very successful here over the years and was sold under the Ram brand until the Fiat takeover.

The old style American vans aren't as practical for a lot of uses and were pretty dated which is why they are being replaced.
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Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2013-02-14, 06:26

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/most...iar-test-drive

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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2013-02-14, 08:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
You're driving it wrong is his argument? Good luck with that!

Drive under the limit, turn the heat down in winter, don't drive around a parking lot looking for a spot. It all sounds exhausting and unrealistic.

I do see his point about Top Gear though. They love selective editing to fit their scripts.

Last edited by addison : 2013-02-14 at 08:59.
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Dorian Gray
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Paris, France
 
2013-02-14, 08:55

Top Gear is a satirical programme. Musk shouldn’t have complained about it, since it really does Tesla no harm. Anyone seriously contemplating a Model S isn’t going to be put off by a Top Gear joke about it running out of energy.

The New York Times allegations are much more serious, and seemingly, largely lies. I’m not surprised, mind you. As electric cars gain traction they will be met with widespread antagonism from the motoring press. Tesla must have a better strategy than moaning about that. They should correct blatantly wrong portrayals of their cars, but they can’t be seen to be taking a stance against every journalist that moans about their cars, since that will be every motoring journalist who likes reciprocating engines and feels they’re threatened, i.e. 99 % of them in 2013.

Likening Tesla’s statement to saying ‘you’re driving it wrong’ is a bit flippant. If you don’t put petrol in a petrol car are you also driving it wrong?
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2013-02-14, 09:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
You're driving it wrong is his argument? Good luck with that!
Seems reasonable to me, though I had already seen others pick apart some of Broder's numbers as fraudulent right after the NYT article was published. Something seemed fishy from the start, and I was expecting Tesla to say something in their defense.

If Broder red-lined a gasoline engine while blasting the AC during the peak of summer, ignored the advice of someone telling him to stop to get gas, and then lied about his driving patterns in an apparent effort to make the manufacturer look bad, wouldn't you expect a similar rebuttal from a traditional car-maker?

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2013-02-14, 09:06

Am I surprised the NYT may have shaded things? Absolutely not. They've done it before. As for the car all major magazines named the Tesla their car of the year so I don't think they have it in for the car.
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Dorian Gray
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Paris, France
 
2013-02-14, 09:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
As for the car all major magazines named the Tesla their car of the year so I don't think they have it in for the car.
Awards are nothing. Car journalists are in love with noisy petrol engines. It’ll take years for that to change. When electric cars start taking significant market share they’ll be pilloried by these guys: subtly, mockingly, directly, fraudulently. This happened to diesel cars in Europe for the last twenty years. Only today are diesel cars finally getting some respect from the motoring press, despite taking over half of the new-car market in Europe for years.

Li-ion batteries are far worse than even diesel to these guys.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2013-02-14, 09:26

Diesel engines sucked twenty plus years ago. I know because I owned one. They were right to be critical of them. It was only when direct injection and advances in turbos came online that they were seen as a viable option. We'll just have to wait to see if electrics go anywhere this time to see what happens I guess.
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Dorian Gray
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Paris, France
 
2013-02-14, 10:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
Diesel engines sucked twenty plus years ago. I know because I owned one. They were right to be critical of them. It was only when direct injection and advances in turbos came online that they were seen as a viable option.
Nonsense. They sucked only from your viewpoint as a petrolhead. Twenty years ago diesels already had nearly 50 % of the market in France, for example. The motoring press hated them, but nearly 50 % of the French opted for them (and over 20 % of British buyers, for example). There was a huge disconnect between the viewpoint of the press and the viewpoint of real-world buyers.

Electric will suffer a similar lack of respect from the press for many years. This is only the start of it.
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Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2013-02-14, 10:48

The automotive press reflects different opinions than the public at large because most of them prefer different things. Most people just want convenient, reliable transportation. Car guys want cars that are fun to drive and are willing to sacrifice some practicality and fuel economy to get it.

It's the same reason why "art house" films are often very highly praised but fall flat with audiences, or vice versa for mindless action movies.

I'm not saying the car guys are right. They need to do a better job of keeping in mind the intended use of the car they're reviewing, or at the very least, have some integrity instead of making shit up like they were proved to have done.
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Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2013-02-14, 11:27

The NYT will have some explaining to do, but Tesla has also handled this poorly. They will have the car nerds and geeks in general on their side, excited about seeing a fight..... but overall they have done an extremely poor job at responding to a harsh review that made the simple point that most people fear.... electric cars are not ready for prime time yet.

Even if he took a detour (2 miles into Manhattan, oh boy!), even if he didn't charge it to 100% each time (he still spent 45 mins or more "refueling") and even if he didn't trickle charge it overnight (would it had made a difference if he was parked at work in 20 degree weather and returned to the car 8 hours later)?

The Tesla S is a beautiful car, it's a big step for electric car... but it has all of the problems that are in that review, and attacking the writer about it, and going on the defensive isn't going to do much.... because in the end, his critiques are true, even if his method of coming to those conclusions has some holes in it.
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