Formerly Roboman, still
awesome Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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Okay.
Why not? Selling a $299 iPad 2 next year would mirror the strategy that's proven exceptionally successful for them with the iPhone. They've already shown a preference for discounting last year's model instead of introducing a new low-end model once. Why is continuing their currently hugely successful iOS device strategy so much less likely than doing an about-face and introducing a new low-end model? What makes this time so much different? Quote:
All the evidence suggests that, on average, 7" tablet users use their tablets less than 9.7" tablet users. It's just not as good of an experience — too much scrolling, too much zooming — and the marginal increase in mobility clearly doesn't make up for that (or else 7" tablet users would be the ones using their tablets the most). Also, from a business perspective, introducing a new size of tablet would fragment the user base and require more work from the savvy developers who wouldn't want their iPad apps to be just squeezed down. Quote:
The fact that "lower cost" keeps on getting pulled out as one of the iPad mini's key reasons to exist just suggests to me that even its proponents here view the small size as a compromise, not a feature, because it's usually not a forgone conclusion in technology that smaller gadgets cost less. Would most people choose a 7" iPad over a 9.7" one at the same price? If not, wouldn't that suggest that most people find the smaller size a compromise, not a feature? And wouldn't it be more Apple-like to just wait until they can deliver $299 tablet buyers an experience without such a major compromise, one that delivers the full experience users expect from the iPad brand? I mean, what's the rush? Android? Windows RT? Why is a $299 iPad mini this holiday season so necessary? Why is a $299 iPad 2 next spring so much less likely? And if most people would choose a $299 9.7" iPad over an equally-priced iPad mini, why would Apple bother with the iPad mini? They're not going to sell two $299 iPads. and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong |
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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- The keyboard would be too small. - It's in no-mans-land, UI wise. Does it take the pane based approach of the iPhone, or a popover based UI on the iPad? Neither of these is really ideal. - It would only be an ounce or two lighter, an inch or two smaller, and a $100 or so cheaper. But by far the most important is that it wouldn't be compatible with existing apps. Apple would be asking developers to support a third screen size. This is the dealbreaker for me. I suspect what would end up happening is that nobody would support it. Most developers would probably decide that running the scaled up version of the iPhone app was good enough, because developers always take the path of least resistance. They didn't do this for the iPad because 9.7" offered clear advantages, but 7" is too close to the iPhone for it to be worth it. Rallying around an extremely limited number of resolutions makes developers lives' much easier. The App Store is iOS's main competitive advantage. Apple is going to try and keep it as simple as possible for developers, so they keep making great apps, so iOS keeps attracting more customers. Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. Last edited by Kraetos : 2012-05-06 at 15:24. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
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IF Apple doesn't do the smaller form factor, it is because of their own marketing/profit analysis which WE know very little about. If they think they will make lots of money doing it, they will. Any opinion at this point, is just guessing. |
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Less than Stellar Member
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If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong. |
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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You're suggesting that Apple simply shrink everything to the point of massive frustration and call it a solution? At 1024x768 at 7.85", tap targets would be frustratingly small. A button 44 px wide goes from being about .33 inches diagonal to .25 inches diagonal. This is unacceptable. Apple would never do this in a million years. It flies in the face of everything that modern Apple stands for. The #1 reason the Kindle fire UI is such an awful experience is because everything is too damn small, you miss your tap target all the time on that thing. Now it appears that you're not only suggesting Apple make the iPad mini, but that they should also screw it up in the exact same way Amazon screwed up the Fire, and you have the balls to claim that Apple would do it right even though you're suggesting that Apple adopt one of the single worst decisions the Kindle design team made. You've brought it up "over and over" and I've ignored it because it's such a laughable assumption given Apple's track record that it didn't even merit a response. "I get it" just fine, but if you are seriously insinuating that Apple is going to half-ass a new hero product in such a manner, I don't think you get it at all. Seriously. Jobs/Cook-era Apple would never half-ass a hero product in a manner that you are suggesting. That you would even bring it up is pretty funny, but that you accuse me of "not getting it" after I ignored it is simply hilarious. Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. Last edited by Kraetos : 2012-05-07 at 09:44. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
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I think many of the controls on iPad apps are already oversized. This is partly due to the fact that with so much area what else do you do when porting over iPhone-only apps? Making all the controls really big helps. Most apps could shrink some without any impact. Shrinking the display IS a watch item though. I am sure Apple would look at all the popular apps and see how they play on the smaller screen before they make such a decision.
But you have to admit that it is possible to do this without any developer impact... |
Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
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The current iPad is a great size and I would never personally get a 7" one. But I do think that there is a market, a considerable market, for the smaller device and that Apple would show the way to implement it elegantly at the hardware and software level. When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray. |
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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Don't get me wrong, I am really fast at both types of typing, but if the iPhone keyboard was much larger it would be a pain in the ass. Just like on the Kindle, the keys in the middle of the keyboard get really hard to reach. It's not a pleasant experience at all. Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. |
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Veteran Member
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The reason why a $299 iPad wouldn't be as popular is the same reason why the Mac mini doesn't sell to consumers as
much as the iPad. Mac users have generally not minded being a generation behind but they're not going to be too enthused about being two generation behind. Apple is a premium brand and people by and large expect a premium product. I won't be surprised if iOS 6.0 delivers some new gestures. I mean we're all sitting here talking about tap targets but slowly we're seeing gestural based UI take over (Clear anyone?) Swipes obviate the need for a back button. Long Tap allows for contextual menus Pinch Zoom and multi finger gestures will rid us of UI paradigms that assumed a Mouse/KB driven interface. When I look at iPhoto for iOS I see Apple moving to this trend. They found a way to get rid of sliders and use the color context of a photo to make adjustments neatly getting rid of the problem with tap targets (although causing some new issues) I expect to see future iOS versions get even more touch enabled to the point where "Too many button = fail" omgwtfbbq |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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Please please please please please drop the "Apple wont sell a two generation old product" shtick. It makes you look quite ignorant given that Apple already does this and has been doing it for 7 months. As for minis, I regret that I cannot reveal my source for this info, but Mac minis sell quite well. Not as well as iPads, but just about nothing sells as well as iPads, because they're freakin' iPads. Quote:
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Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Unknown
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According to iMore's source (who was very accurate with iPhone 4s and New iPad details), Apple will be rolling out a 7-8" iPad in October. Interestingly, their source indicates that instead of a 1024x768 display, the new unit will feature the same 2048x1536 resolution as the current iPad. This will give it a pixel density on par with the iPhone 4s and make the app fragmentation argument largely moot. Some adjustments may have to be made, but I think those would be trivial.
http://www.imore.com/2012/05/10/7inc...0-price-point/ Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents! |
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and cutting storage are two concepts diametrically opposed to each other. Retina graphics take up more storage. The last thing you want to do is reduce the storage capacity by 50% I don't think $200 or $250 is a sane price point. Why give someone something cheap that is going to run out of storage too fast? iOS 6 is going to likely require more storage and/or RAM. Ideally i'd expect 16GB of NAND storage. Come on folks NAND storage pricing is dynamic and Apple acquired Anobit to leverage tools and expertise that can deliver many writes on 2-bits per cell or even 3-bits per cell NAND storage without too much degradation. If Sharp was almost ready for the New iPad launch with IGZO technology it is feasible that they've used this extra time to potentially prepare smaller Retina screens. Because IGZO tech doesn't require dual light bars it would be cheaper even in Retina resolutions. Simply deliver a smaller iPad and 6th Gen iPhone with great battery life and a shiny new iOS and Apple will rule the Holiday season. omgwtfbbq |
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Formerly Roboman, still
awesome Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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hmurchison might think that many buttons in apps are a bit large for his taste, but the point is, they're always exactly sized to the developer's taste. A developer can draw one button once and know exactly how large it will be on every iPad in existence, as it will be the same size on all of them. That goes away with an iPad mini with a shrunk-down screen, even if it keeps the pixel count the same so apps can "just work, shrunk down a bit." Careless devs might be okay with that. But savvier designers won't be satisfied with just uniformly squishing down all the touch targets — they'll want them to remain the intended size, on all iPads, which means more work. Let's say you make a game. On a full-size iPad, you want the HUD and controls to take up an eighth of the width of the landscape screen on each side, leaving your intended square field of view for play (I want to keep this simple). But on the iPad mini, you don't want to just shrink the buttons and HUD — you want them to remain the same size, so you create larger art assets so they'll be the intended size when shrunken down. Players' fingers remain the same size no matter what tablet they buy, after all! But since the controls are the same physical size on a smaller screen, they take up more than an eighth of the screen on each side — so your intended square field of view is instead a tall rectangle. You want players to be able to see what's coming from all sides — all your playtesting and difficulty adjustments were geared toward the field of view on the full-size iPad, and you want to keep that the same — so you zoom out on the action so players can see as far to the left and right of the character as they could with the square field of view. Got that? So not only is everything but the HUD scaled down, compared to the full-size iPad, but the increased real estate needed to keep the HUD the same physical size required zooming out on the action to keep the same field of view, as well. Scaled down and zoomed out — the player character is going to be tiny compared to the full-size iPad version! Or, you could just uniformly scale down everything, including the HUD and controls, and leave players frustrated with too-small buttons. Anyway. The "retina display at 7 inches" rumor makes especially little sense to me, as such a part would likely cost about as much or more as the 9" retina display. The "1024*768 at 7 inches" rumor was at least in keeping with the idea of a cheaper iPad. and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Keeping the iPad 3 matrix size with a 7" size yields a pretty high pixel density. Can people even resolve pixels at that level? Its possible I suppose...
As far as the "it will shrink the controls" argument, I don't think it is that big of a deal. Its not that big of a reduction to make a huge difference. I suppose there are some apps that really pack in the controls that might have an issue, but for 90% of usage (reading email, books, web junk, movies, music) it will not make much of a difference. When people play with them in the store they can make up their mind if they want to sacrifice the big display for save one or two hundred dollars. A couple C-notes is still a lot of money to a LOT of people. Thats why those older iPhones sell well even though they don't make much sense in the long run when you compare total cost of ownership. The same type of folk that buys the iPhone 4 or 3GS will want to save some money and buy this unit. Now, can they make money this way? Probably... Can they steal/maintain marketshare? Probably... |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Unknown
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I'm not sure I think it would have the retina display either. But it is an interesting take, from a source who has proven to be fairly accurate in recent past. I'm not exactly sure what the specs or price will be, but I'm 80-90% convinced that a 7-8" iPad is coming. Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents! |
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Formerly Roboman, still
awesome Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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"Apple makes an iPad mini or Apple makes no sub-$399 iPad at all" is a false dichotomy, and people keep basing their argument on that fallacy when they use arguments for a cheaper iPad to support the argument for a smaller one, as if there were no other options for a cheaper iPad. I'm quite sure everything I just quoted is true. What does it have to do with an iPad mini, though? and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong |
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Formerly Roboman, still
awesome Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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Steal marketshare? It's still high enough for that to be difficult. Embiggen the market as a whole? Maybe. |
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Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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For reasons I'm not quite sure of, the iPad mini proponents are convinced a $299 iPad 2 will never happen, even though it's the single most logical, financially sound, and predictable way for Apple to release a $299 iPad. I honestly have no idea why they've become convinced of this, and beyond simply stating "A $299 9.7" iPad isn't going to happen," no one has explained why they think it won't happen, even though the evidence overwhelmingly says it will happen, either next year or the following one.
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A 7" $249 iPad mini is a massive course change for iOS for exactly these two reasons, and nary an iPad mini proponent has come up with a real answer to these two questions, instead hammering "MOAR MARKETSHARE" ad nauseam. And they stick with it, despite the fact that 1) Apple almost always cuts prices on iOS devices with old iOS devices, 2) Apple's App solution for iPad was much more elaborate than "just scale em!" and 3) Apple has shown repeatedly that they care about profit more than market share. iPad mini would be the opposite of all of these things, even though they seem to be pretty central to Apple's iOS strategy. Maybe they have this mixed up between "will Apple make an iPad mini?" and "do I like the idea of an iPad mini?" Because guess what? I think the iPad mini is kind of a cool concept and I think that a 6" consumption oriented iOS device (likely called iPod, not iPad) is going to come out eventually. But this specific rumor—this year, named iPad, 7.85", same res and scaled, only $249—reeks to high hell of bullshit, and anyone who follows Apple closely should be able to see it. Especially considering that every time we get more details($199, retina, only 8GB), it seems even more ridiculous! If Apple does it, it would be a really big course change. That doesn't guarantee Apple won't do it, and I'll be eating delicious crow if I'm wrong, but I'll be damned if it isn't highly unlikely given Apple's track record and strategic goals. From a supply chain perspective, it's fucking brilliant that Apple has achieved market segmentation using the same product line, and iPad mini would be simply throwing that out the window—along with a whole bunch of profit. Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. Last edited by Kraetos : 2012-05-11 at 12:10. |
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Veteran Member
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The problem is we have multiple sources of varying credulity reporting Apple is at least testing smaller iPad form factors
versus: Kraetos Not trying to employe an Appeal to Authority fallacy but when even the WSJ talks about and iPad and Gruber "confirms" that they are "noodling" with smaller designs. I've got to wonder when it's time to punt and just acknowledge that the idea is being tossed around. omgwtfbbq |
Lovable Bastard
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
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Last edited by Kraetos : 2012-05-11 at 12:47. |
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