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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2012-07-06, 17:19

Yep. I can totally see the want for a smaller tablet. But I feel like 6.5" is a better size target for a dedicated reading/watching device, i.e. E-Ink Kindle sized. 7.85" is just so close to 9.7" that it screams "cost cutting!" to me.

I also think that a 6.5" iOS device is better branded as an iPod than as an iPad. I think that if there is a 6-7" iOS device, it should be it's own device with it's own ecosystem, instead of an awkward "iPad lite" that everyone is predicting it will be.

I really think that if Apple wants to succeed in toppling the PC empire, iPad needs to get bigger, not smaller. A first-class mid-sized iOS device is a great idea! A cheap iPad is not. We already have a cheap iPad, it's called the iPad 2.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
 
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2012-07-06, 17:25

I have a Kindle Fire, and I love the size. If the iPad 7.85 came in at even $299 I would buy it, because of the size.

I'm not going to carry around a textbook sized anything unless it's a MBA. Give me a smallish (larger than the iPhone, smaller than the iPad) iOS device and I'm all in. The only reason I don't use the Fire that much is because the responsiveness is horrible.

I don't give a shit about cheap. I do give a shit about portable.

So it goes.
 
Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2012-07-06, 17:51

The Kindle Fire is almost 7" exactly. The rumored iPad mini is 7.85". That might not sound too much bigger, but I bet it feels bigger. At 7.85" it's not that much appreciably smaller than the iPad we already have.

If they're trying to simulate the paperback size (which I think is a good goal) then 7.85" is too big. 6"-7" is where they should be aiming. 7.85" is obviously better than nothing, but again, 7.85" doesn't feel like "oh hey we have this new cool toy!" to me. It feels like "we made what we already have cheaper!"

6"-7" is a very interesting size. It's eInk Kindle sized. It's "large pocket" or "small purse" sized, which are good places to be. 7.85"... isn't. Again, better than nothing, but for the form factor that you are lusting after, 709, I feel like 6.5" would serve it better. I really do think that 7"-9" is a no man's land. Doesn't fit in a lot of pockets or purses, but not big enough for a full keyboard.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
 
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2012-07-06, 18:04

I don't know. I'm kind've OK with having a 2" smaller iPad (and iOS and all that I love about that - considering everything would still "just work") than having to deal with a smaller size with a potentially different screen size and the ecosystem nightmares that would entail.

Honestly, for me at least, the iPad just doesn't fit into my kit. I have the 27" iMac, 13"MBP for travel, and my iPhone. The 9.7" iPad just doesn't go in there well. A 7.85" iPad would (as would a 7" iPad, but that's not really feasible with the production lines in place). Dunno. I have great eyesight (*knocks on wood*) so the 15-20%(?) shrinkage in the UI probably wouldn't bother me too much. Hopefully.

Not that I haven't been on the iPad1-3. They're all over the place when I work out of town. Just that they've always been a coffee-table device in my mind, not something I could ever just have on hand like my iPhone.

I may be an odd case, but whatever. That's how I feel about it.

So it goes.
 
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2012-07-06, 18:30

And, for the record, if it has a retina display I think it should be more expensive or equal in price than/to the last gen iPad2. $299-$349.

I'd still pay it, as I'm sure millions of others would.

Screw the $199 market. If Apple even gets into that space I will have huge doubts about the company. Leave it to the bottom-feeders that have more interest in user data than user experience. Point.

So it goes.
 
Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2012-07-06, 18:43

709, that's exactly how I feel. If Apple releases a mid-sized iOS device, I want it to be a first class device, not a cut down device designed to hit a pre-designated price point. That's why I think these $199 rumors are bunk.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
 
thegeriatric
geri to my friends
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Heaven
 
2012-07-06, 20:56

Give me a smaller iPad forget the retina display. I want lighter, comfortable to hold in one hand, Excellent battery life, and not to hot.
 
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2012-07-06, 20:58

I'm sure they're bunk. Apple doesn't need to play that far down in the cellar. As I said earlier, at this point people know what to expect, and what they're paying for, with Apple stuff. Because of this, I think most people don't mind that extra bit of cost because they know the quality - both hardware and software - is there. They've got a solid, excellent track record on this front for nearly five straight years (more if you count the iPods in the pre-iPhone years). The others don't. I'm sorry, but they're a mess (OS, software, stores, battery life, screen, responsiveness, reliable OS upgrade paths, etc.).

I'll be surprised if a 7-8" iAnything from Apple is less than $249-299. It would be nice to hit that $199, but there would need to be some corners cut/decisions made: are they going for total coverage/saturation and trying to get it into as many hands as possible (for ~$200), or are they going to pack it with higher-end features and components, sell it for more than others in a similar size and still rake it in and sell them by the truckload?

My gut says the latter.

There's even a chance, as with the various iPods over the years (how the nano had an FM tuner and video camera, for instance, while the others didn't) that this alleged new iPad might just pack a feature or capability designed especially for it, both to show off some cool new tech and to give the thing a "hook" to draw in buyers (including existing iPad owners...Apple people tend to spend money like drunken sailors, so you know good and well that tons of current iPad owners would also fork over $250-300 for a "smaller, better for travel" iPad.

Suddenly everyone's gonna get real pussified about 9.7" display and 1.4lbs.

"Oooh, it's just so heavy on the train..." and "it's hard to use my current iPad on a plane; this new one is more what I need!" and all the other nutty stuff people say to justify buying a new gadget they don't really need.

This could suddenly make the full size iPad feel more like the 15" or 17" MacBook Pro, when everyone really wants an 11" or 13" Air.

I can see that happening.

"The new iPad...smaller and lighter, but big on [fill in the blank]."

Because if Apple does this, they're not going to half-ass it. They'll do something to make it as desirable, if not more so, than the current iPads. That's usually what they do...make everyone lunge for their credit cards, even when they original had no plans to do so. They've got that down to an art!

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2012-07-06 at 21:11.
 
thegeriatric
geri to my friends
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Heaven
 
2012-07-06, 21:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
"The new iPad...smaller and lighter, but big on [fill in the blank]."
Features. ?
 
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2012-07-06, 21:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
"The new iPad...smaller and lighter, but big on [fill in the blank]."
No need to fill in the blank. Smaller and lighter are by far enough.

It could have the exact same features with an hour-ish less battery life. I'd still buy it with bells on.

Plus, the more I think about it, I don't think it will be called the "iPad mini" - I think it will be called the "iPad." Just choose a size.

So it goes.
 
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2012-07-06, 21:40

Although - "It's not how big it is, it's what you do with it" would be my vote.
 
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2012-07-06, 21:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Suddenly everyone's gonna get real pussified about 9.7" display and 1.4lbs.

"Oooh, it's just so heavy on the train..." and "it's hard to use my current iPad on a plane; this new one is more what I need!" and all the other nutty stuff people say to justify buying a new gadget they don't really need.
*ahem* From Day 1 I was looking for a smaller iPad. The current size is just too big imo *gets struck by rdf lightning* Always has been for my usage.

Smaller iPad. Day 1. Mine.

So it goes.
 
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2012-07-06, 22:56

No, I mean in general. How the Airs and the nano (and shuffle) made their larger counterparts suddenly seem "too much". I think people would embrace this size. People always want smaller, lighter, etc. If Apple makes it available, it'll sell like crazy just because of that.

I've heard people say their 13" MacBooks and MacBook Pros are "too big and heavy", so the Airs (especially the 11") stepped in and provided an option.

Right now, with no smaller option, the iPad gets all the attention and praise for its thin and light design (and rightfully so). But I can imagine a smaller version stealing some of that glory.

And the more I think about what I wrote above, about Apple possibly tying some sort of feature or component exclusively to it (doesn't have to be anything major or world-changing, just something the others don't have), might be neat draw or hook.

Not sure what it could be, though.
 
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2012-07-06, 23:43

I think the only hook Apple needs is "the same, but smaller" Or, seriously, "Big things come in little packages." Or whatever. I've already given them two good ones.

I know I may be on the fringe, but *this* is what I've been waiting for. Can't. Wait.

So it goes.
 
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2012-07-06, 23:50

Yeah, you're probably right.

It's weird that the talk ramped up so sharply this week. But we've been burned by this analyst speculation/input so many times before. I'm trying to stay somewhat neutral (it's hard!) about it, realizing there's a solid chance it's all a bunch of jibber-jabber and wild-ass "what if?" by people who get paid to do that.

Curious about when it would come. I assume there will be an iPhone event in September or October. Would they do a separate, standalone event a month or so apart for this? That's hard to imagine, with travel budgets and all probably being crunched and cut back. Have they ever booked two special media events within 1-3 months of each other?

Or would something like this, if it's simply a smaller version of an already-existing product, even warrant its own special event? I wouldn't think so. If it had nothing truly unique or earth-shattering about it (just a size change), It could probably just be part of the iPhone event (since it's iOS and could come with the new iOS 6 pre-loaded, just like the new iPhone). It would make a nice "one more thing..." at the end of the iPhone event, I suppose.

That would be a sweet triple-punch event: the new iPhone, iOS 6 and a new model of iPad.
 
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2012-07-06, 23:56



Not this one. If I don't have a fresh one in my hands by the end of July, I'll be fucking pissed.
 
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2012-07-07, 00:05

I really don't think this'll be a "special event" thing. It'll be Apple releasing a product that will change fucking everything, and positing it as a slightly smaller version of a product that changed fucking everything. No biggie.


So it goes.

Last edited by 709 : 2012-07-07 at 08:09.
 
thegeriatric
geri to my friends
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Heaven
 
2012-07-07, 06:03

I want it now.
 
Matsu
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2012-07-07, 06:48

Pscates, I think you're on to something with the weight.

Let's all consider for a moment that sometimes diagonal measure doesn't really give a good impression of the overall size of a display. Here's what I mean. The iPad has a 9.7" display, which works out to just a smidge under 6x8" ( approx 5.85x7.8" ) this is a nice size to straddle the differing needs of website, magazine and trade paperback viewing. The whole device is 7.3x9.5" - so it's got a healthy border on it, just over 3/4" all around.

So, assuming the same aspect ratio, how big, or how small is a 7.85" display? Pythagoras says about 4.7x6.3". 1"x1.5" shorter in the respective dimensions doesn't sound like tons, but it's almost 40% smaller...

45.63" square inches vs 29.61"

Think of it another way, the long dimension of a 7.85" screen is less than a 1/2" more than the short dimension of a 9.7" screen. It's starting to look very promising for a device about half the size. Cut the bezel down to 3/8" all around and you're there, it would make the entire width of an iPad mini in portrait orientation about 5.5" (4.7"+3/8"+3/8"). Something I could easily hold in the palm of my hand. No retina display means and less screen area equals less power hungry GPU and backlights, smaller batteries, etc... The whole thing will weigh less than a pound; maybe as low as 0.75lbs.

People will want it when they see it...

.........................................
 
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2012-07-15, 11:09

The most recent episode of Gruber's Talk Show podcast gets into the weeds on this stuff (Dan Frommer is his guest/co-host) and it's really good stuff. It's hard to imagine this not happening, when you look at it from the iPod/historical perspective, how Apple comes out with something, and then, over time, other versions get created to fill in the price/choice/size niches. Until a couple of years ago, 13" was the smallest Apple notebook you could get. They thought an 11" (just two inches) was worth doing, and it seems to be a popular choice for many.

FWIW, Gruber doesn't think this would come with Retina Display (as a cost-savings measure, to get it as affordable as possible on this initial release). But, as he wrote on DF last week, that would simply be following Apple's familiar approach of releasing something and then bringing those larger improvements to it gradually, over time. He's certain it would indeed have a Retina Display within a year or so (probably the next major revision). Just as they've slowly brought it to iPods, iPhones and iPads on their later versions (and now starting to funnel into the notebook line, a little at a time).

Makes sense. I don't think Apple needs to go balls-out with cutting-edge tech and buzzword-heavy specs for such a product to be a rip-roaring success. The iPad 2 is still better than anything else out there, and a smaller version of it certainly isn't going to "suck". I think the people such a thing would mostly appeal to - with its smaller size and lower price - don't give two damns about Retina Display. Not enough that they're going to spend $499 if they could, instead, pay $199-249. I've yet to meet anyone in real life that gaga over it. And ~$300 goes a long way toward making such a thing matter even less to certain buyers.

Something Gruber and Frommer talk about - and it's obvious, but it's funny how it's never actually done - is that this rumored new iPad is really more like an 8" model (7.85"), yet all the talk is 7" this or that. I know it's just one inch, but the point is that 7.85" is closer to 8" than 9.7" is to 10" (and everyone calls this iPad "10 inches".

But the math/physics work out where just a ~2" smaller displays yields a much more compact (and, I assume, lighter and thinner) model. Male, female, purse/messenger bag or not, that's just an undeniable lure to many. Along with a price that, once you get below that ~$250 mark, gets into the area of "impulse purchase" for many people. Or certainly gift-giving (especially if Apple surprises us and manages to hit that $199 mark. Hell, people spend that much (or more) on and iPod touch and it's popular and nobody has trouble with its tap-targets and size.

Another thing they talk about is coming off this past January's textbook event in NYC, and how such a product would nicely tie into that. Gruber says "think about it...what users are most likely to have sharper eyesight and smaller fingers anyway, and carrying a backpack around currently filled with heavy books?"

Students!

It's true. And I can see school systems able to buy a hell of a lot more $199-249 smaller iPads than the $399-499 full size. Almost twice as many, in some cases. That's going to make a huge impact, IMO. Plus, they'll get nicer, bulk pricing so education discounts and bulk purchases by school systems could very well make it to where they've able to get these things for a few bucks less than what Apple would sell them to the general public.

Apple may even make a special, dedicated education-only version (WiFi-only, modest storage, a single color option, etc.) for this very market? As cheap and simple as possible to get them out there. As long as they don't foul up on the EPEAT stuff and cut themselves out of the running...



Anyway, it's a very good episode (after a rough start, he's finally coming around and finding his footing and these aren't as shaky and unlistenable as the first couple of installments), so check it out.

If you do, you'll likely find yourself thinking "Apple's crazy if they don't do this!".

Way too many reasons for them to do so (providing choice and options in the price and size areas, increasing their user numbers, covering the bases/protecting their lead, education market potential which is something I never really seriously considered before, the fact that consumers - as with the iPod and notebooks - seem to favor "small and cute" whenever possible, etc.). If the iPod minis, nanos and shuffles (and 11" Air) were all dead-in-the-water duds and DOA, I'd feel a little differently about it all. But it's been shown, over and over, people aren't opposed to "smaller and lighter", especially when they know it's going to be coated in Apple's design/usability goodness.

IMO, at this point there's no good reason anyone should expect such a product to not be an enormous success. Possibly even surpassing the full-size iPod in certain markets, in time.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2012-07-15 at 11:21.
 
Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2012-07-16, 15:32

MG Siegler loves the Nexus 7, and it has a lot to do with the size. Makes me pretty confident that Apple could knock a 8" tablet out of the park, keyboard be damned.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
 
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2012-07-16, 19:42

It's what I said last week. It's entirely possible Apple had the 9.7" thing wrong all this time...

Just kidding.

But seriously...this new, smaller one (lighter, one-handed friendly, etc.) might be exactly what people would prefer, given the option?

We'll just have to see.

And, if so, over time, Apple can certainly adjust their manufacturing numbers and schedules to reflect this.

The market for a larger 10" (sorry...9.7") iPad will never go away (just as there are those who will always get the 15" MacBook Pro, or the 17" in the past). But I think the 11" and 13" models of MacBooks have proven very popular, so I can't imagine why the same wouldn't apply here, once you establish that usability, comfort, tap targets, etc. aren't adversely affected (and I don't think they are, from all I've read and seen...there are mockups galore out there, and apparently the Apple-mandated 44-pixel target is maintained with this 7.85" display at 1024x768 (that's also covered in the podcast, and the episode before it).

The reasons for it not (or can't/shouldn't be) happening are melting away, week by week, IMO.

It wouldn't surprise me to see an iPod-like situation take place within a year or two. People loved the original full-size white iPod. But damn...the minute Apple put out a cuter, smaller one (and then even killed that to make an even smaller, cuter one!), that's when things really got interesting. The iPod didn't truly explode and become what it did until those smaller (and cheaper) models hit the scene (mid-2000's).

I truly believe a tighter, more compact iPad has every chance in the world to become even more popular than the "classic" iPad we've known for two-plus years.

I just think when it comes to a portable device you're meant to take with you and use in places besides just sitting at a desk, "small and light" factors in huge, and people are just naturally drawn to that. Even if they were priced close to each other, many people are just going to embrace less weight/heft because of their usage habits and lifestyle. But once you add in the fact that maybe this thing is $250-300 less than a full-size classic iPad, then it instantly enters "no-brainer" territory for tons of people.

Apple shocked everyone in 2010 with the $499 price (we all expected it to be much higher, being Apple). I think they're in a position, two-plus years later, to surprise us again with a lower-than-expected price (for Apple, that is). $199-249 for a full-tilt iPad in a "cuter", more compact (and lightweight) design than what we've known so far is a winning proposition.

It has to be.
 
thegeriatric
geri to my friends
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Heaven
 
2012-07-16, 20:24

These are not the iPads you're looking for!
 
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2012-08-04, 11:17

Well, isn't this interesting...kinda puts a few assumptions or "reasons why not" to rest.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ents_show.html
 
torifile
Less than Stellar Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Durham, NC
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2012-08-04, 21:56

Sept 12th is shaping up to be a very exciting day. Between the next iPhone, the iPad mini rumors and the Apple TV-ish thing, we're in for a wild month.

If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong.
 
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2012-08-05, 18:27

Definitely. I can't imagine all that getting packed into a single extravaganza, but, then again, every time we thing we know what/how Apple will go about something, they do a complete 180.

I don't think a new, smaller iPad, in and of itself, warrants or justifies a separate, standalone event...unless there was something special or unique to it that wasn't in the larger one. But that is tough to believe, so something just being a smaller version of a product already out there could very well occupy a "one more thing..." part of the iPhone event, sure, and be rolled into the September 12 event.

I do think this September 12 wing-ding is going to be exciting and fun, even if the only thing unveiled is the new iPhone and iOS 6. Those two things, alone, should provide enough interest and excitement. Anything beyond that will just be icing on the cake, IMO. I'm not in the iPod, iPad or Apple TV market so that accounts for my complete "eh..." and indifference to that end of it.
 
screensaver400
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2012-08-05, 19:25

It wouldn't shock me if at some point Apple does a huge event as sort of a "even with Steve gone, we've still got it" statement.

I mean, a September 12 event with:
4" iPhone
7.85" iPad (probably marketed as an 8" display)
iOS 6
iMacs
13" Retina MacBook Pro

seems conceivable to me. When you think about it, none of those products are truly huge, revolutionary products, but sticking them all together could have a magnifying effect. The whole is greater than the sum, that sort of thing.

5 minutes on the state of Apple
10 minutes announcing new iMacs and the 13" Retina MacBook Pros
10 minute recap of iOS 6
25 minute intro of new iPhone
10 minutes on 8" iPad (marketed as an iPad 2, only smaller, would be my guess)

That would make a solid one hour presentation.
 
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2012-08-05, 19:55

Well, you could even be more generous with that time allotment, as most of these things - WWDC keynotes and standalone media events - go well over an hour. So, yeah...90 minutes, even better. They'd certainly have some wiggle room if they used your numbers as a bare minimum. They could add 5-10 to any, most or all segments and still come in under two hours (that seems to be the upper limit).

It would be nice. Just get it all out of the way and done with a big product release extravaganza.

Would certainly make for a fun day of checking out their site...

Their store would probably crash about 900 times, with all the people trying to order and buy something.

Then again, they could always stagger the releases or ordering/pre-ordering timeframes as needed.
 
Jason
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
 
2012-08-06, 13:40

Am I the only one in the world who just cannot see Apple releasing smaller iPads?
 
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2012-08-06, 13:47

At this point, probably.

I've been all over the place myself. At first I was like "hmm...maybe", then, a while back, I was staunchly against the notion. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized there's a "hole" in the pricing/size landscape and lots of other things have fallen into place to convince me it's coming (in-the-know pundits, the story about Jobs not being as opposed to the size as we were all led to believe, etc.).

I honestly believe there's something brewing. When it arrives - and what it'll cost - are still up in the air. But I don't think the current iPad is all there would be. Just in the way that Apple makes different sized iMacs and MacBooks (for lower costs, different tastes, etc.), why can't the same thing apply to the iPad line?

That's my thinking on it anyway...

We'll see.
 
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