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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2012-12-28, 19:25

Have you considered an Optima?
  quote
Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2012-12-28, 22:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
Have you considered an Optima?
I think the Optima has good exterior styling, but the interior could use a ton of improvement, particularly the center stack and door dressing. Too much hard black plastic, not enough soft-feeling material.
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Chinney
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
 
2012-12-29, 07:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
So after test driving a 2013 Ford Fusion, I'm going to go ahead and say it's the far and away best ~$20-30K large/midsize sedan. It just does certain things that matter to me way better than competitors like the Accord, Camry, Passat.
I have always kind of liked the Fusion myself. I have driven a few as rentals and driving cars belonging to family. Too bad that they don't make it in wagon though. If they did, I would give it some consideration.

The lack of availability of wagons generally in the North American market annoys me, especially since the same models in many brands are available as wagons elsewhere in the world. We also tend to have far fewer options in engine type (i.e., diesel) and size (i.e., smaller engines). I thought consumer choice was supposed to be a good thing. There are almost no vehicles for sale here now that would tempt me, if we were to replace our now 5-year-old Subaru Legacy Wagon. The Legacy Wagon itself is no longer available here - just the Outback, which Subaru has now fully turned into an SUV. We may just hold onto the Legacy for a long while. I know a good private mechanic who specializes in Subaru, and I imagine that he will be able to keep it running in good condition.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2012-12-29, 11:40

There used to be lots of wagons offered here in NA. People just stopped buying them. They moved on to SUVs, especially car based ones. Ford isn't going to build a wagon version of the Fusion that nobody will buy. They'll just point you towards an Escape.
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Chinney
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
 
2012-12-29, 14:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
There used to be lots of wagons offered here in NA. People just stopped buying them. They moved on to SUVs, especially car based ones. Ford isn't going to build a wagon version of the Fusion that nobody will buy. They'll just point you towards an Escape.
I think that it has more to do with auto company margins than their customers' actual preferences.
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Wraven
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
 
2013-01-01, 20:59

Matsu and Dorian,

I really like the air cooled 911's as well but when I finally had the means to get a Porsche I just couldn't bring myself to get a classic (I wanted something resembling a daily driver). So, I added a 2008 Targa 4S to my car family back in February.

Is there a way to attach a pic to a post? I can't for some reason...

Cheers,
Wraven
  quote
Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2013-01-02, 07:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
I have always kind of liked the Fusion myself. I have driven a few as rentals and driving cars belonging to family. Too bad that they don't make it in wagon though. If they did, I would give it some consideration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
There used to be lots of wagons offered here in NA. People just stopped buying them. They moved on to SUVs, especially car based ones. Ford isn't going to build a wagon version of the Fusion that nobody will buy. They'll just point you towards an Escape.
Sadly there is a wagon version in addition to a 5-door hatchback version in Europe. Maybe if we start calling them estates instead of station wagons, they'll become more popular. I think addison is more-or-less correct. Ford just knows the US market will accept MPVs like C-Max or CUVs like the Escape in its place.
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2013-01-02, 18:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
I think that it has more to do with auto company margins than their customers' actual preferences.
Not really. addison is pretty much dead on — as any wagon driver knows ("You bought a wagon?"), when your average US auto buyer hears "wagon," they seem to think this:



This is long-established market wisdom, and while such wisdom is sometimes wrong, in this case I don't think it is. I don't think it's a margins thing; even when companies like BMW bring their high-margin wagons over to the US, they go over like a lead balloon covered in fat people — hence the endless parade of don't-call-it-a-wagon crossovers and egregious "progressive activity vehicles."

This might change in the future, though: the Prius has single-handedly made a hatch part of the hybrid "look," to the point where any form of media attempting to display a generic hybrid will make it a hatchback, despite such vehicles being only a small portion of (non-SUV) passenger vehicle sales.* So perhaps the hatch is beginning to be seen as futuristic, rather than retro. More vehicles like the Fusion may soon be available with a hatch; however, I'd expect these vehicles to take more after five-door hatchbacks/fastbacks than the archetypical wagon, which is still incredibly unsexy.

*) It's not a coincidence that most so-called "dedicated hybrids," like Honda's CR-Z and Insight and Ford's (NA market) C-Max, are hatchbacks — these models are marketed in addition to the more typical Civic and Fusion Hybrids because automakers believe many hybrid purchasers want a vehicle that obviously looks like a hybrid, and post-2004-Prius, that means hatchback. I'd actually go a step further and say that being a sedan instead of a hatchback is largely responsible for the (NA market) failure of the Lexus HS — it added the development cost and marketplace clutter of an all-new dedicated hybrid model without being visibly much different from any other Lexus sedan. They might as well just have made an ES Hybrid, which is what is replacing the HS in the NA market. Also, a hatch would have given the HS more market differentiation — at the time, Lexus already sold four lines of sedan, and no hatchbacks. Lexus notably made their second dedicated hybrid model, the CT, only available as a hatchback, and it has been notably more successful.

•••

Anyway: I've noticed tend to like many car designs that are (at least initially) polarizing, such as the Scion xB, Nissan Juke, and Nissan Cube. It's worth noting that these are all very much intended to be polarizing — with a small, sub-$20k vehicle aimed at the youth set, you don't have to be appealing to everyone. Personally, I find conservatively-styled vehicles trying to evolve and failing to be much more distasteful. Case in point, the new (JDM) Toyota Crown:



It's sort of a cliché to say "it looks like it's been in an accident!" about any vehicle that features Bangle-esque flame surfacing or anything other than perfectly smooth sides, but seriously — what the hell is going on above that front wheel arch? Anyway, the effect is something like the front third of an ass-kicking roadster smooshed against the cabin of a super-posh luxobarge for Korean dignitaries. It's not merely ugly, in other words. It's not just a mess. It looks like a mistake, like there was some tragic accident at the factory and this was the result.

People disliked Cadillac's Art & Science design language at first, and Acura's "power plenum" grille and associated styling, to the point where both companies have gone back to the drawing board and softened those (once intentionally hard-edged) lines to appeal to more conservative tastes (to both brands' detriment, to my eyes). But at least those design languages, polarizing as they might have been, were applied consistently throughout the design. Even the critics could see that those were designs that said something, loud and clear, where the new Crown just sort of mumbles incoherently.

I'm not saying all auto design has to be bold and controversial. There's a place for more conservative, understated design, just as there's a place for unabashedly funky boxmobiles. Audi's styling is at its best when it's understated, and the profile of the Porsche 911 is has evolved very little over the decades and the Porsche enthusiast community wouldn't have it any other way. But if you're going to speak up, say something. The new Crown is design diarrhea; it's messy and out of control and just embarrassing.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Canadark
 
2013-01-02, 18:40

I just had to Google what a Toyota Crown actually was. They don't sell them in Canada. And yes, that has had a nasty beating with the ugly stick, indeed.
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Chinney
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
 
2013-01-02, 20:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Not really. addison is pretty much dead on — as any wagon driver knows ("You bought a wagon?"), when your average US auto buyer hears "wagon," they seem to think this:



This is long-established market wisdom, and while such wisdom is sometimes wrong, in this case I don't think it is. I don't think it's a margins thing; even when companies like BMW bring their high-margin wagons over to the US, they go over like a lead balloon covered in fat people — hence the endless parade of don't-call-it-a-wagon crossovers and egregious "progressive activity vehicles."

[...]

Maybe you are right then, but if so I think that this feeling is a pretty much uniquely a U.S. thing...and I think that it is one that is largely a result of some weird negative perception that developed down there (and I still do suspect auto company marketing behind it) rather than any actual inherently negative quality of the wagon design. That old Roadmaster is pretty clunky admittedly, but wagons do not have to be. When I think of clunky these days, I think of the all those SUVs that seem to proliferate, and yet they sell like hotcakes. Mind you, wagons and SUVs are similar designs in some ways, so if they just made the SUVs lower, a bit longer, lighter, ditch the 4-wheel drive (except as an option for those that truly need it), get rid of the oversized tires, give them smaller, but appropriately tuned engines, and give them better handling, I would be in the market for a vehicle again. They could still call them "SUVs" if the "wagon" word is the problem.

Nice to see you around Robo.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
  quote
addabox
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: oaktown
 
2013-01-02, 21:51

And yet:



For some reason Audi alone appears to know how to build and market a proper sports wagon here in the good old USA. It's not even a variant-- the A3 is wagon all the way. They've been at it a while, so apparently they make enough money on the things to make it worth their while. Still probably a pretty niche market, relatively speaking.

Personally, I'm rooting for Tesla to bring the economics of scale (and future battery tech) to their next gen platform (after the X), or possibly whatever comes after that, so that I can get a sub $30,000 (with tax breaks), 300 mile range electric that charges in less than an hour.

Sounds pretty pipe dream-ish at the moment, but Tesla has been relentlessly hitting their marks, and seem to be advancing the state of the art at a pretty rapid clip. Of course, it remains to be seen if there are any show stopping production problems or longer term issues. It wouldn't take much of a fuck-up to kill the whole operation dead, at this point.

That which doesn't kill you weakens you slightly and makes you less able to cope until you're completely incapacitated
  quote
torifile
Less than Stellar Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Durham, NC
Send a message via AIM to torifile  
2013-01-02, 22:02

Is the A3 still making it over here next year? I know the TDI version has been axed for 2014.
  quote
Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2013-01-03, 00:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post
And yet:

For some reason Audi alone appears to know how to build and market a proper sports wagon here in the good old USA. It's not even a variant-- the A3 is wagon all the way. They've been at it a while, so apparently they make enough money on the things to make it worth their while. Still probably a pretty niche market, relatively speaking.
See, I think of the A3 as a 5-door. A wagon to me is something that has the capacity for fold-up 3rd row.

When I think of popular wagons in the US, I think of the XC Volvos and the Subaru Legacy and that's pretty much it. I almost never see Audi A6 or VW Jetta wagons. I never see the Mercedes Benz E-Class or BMW 5-Series wagons at all. I never see the Cadillac CTS wagons either. Other than the Volvos and Subarus, I only ever see these cars on dealership lots in the SF Bay area.
  quote
Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2013-01-03, 01:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post

It's sort of a cliché to say "it looks like it's been in an accident!" about any vehicle that features Bangle-esque flame surfacing or anything other than perfectly smooth sides, but seriously — what the hell is going on above that front wheel arch? Anyway, the effect is something like the front third of an ass-kicking roadster smooshed against the cabin of a super-posh luxobarge for Korean dignitaries. It's not merely ugly, in other words. It's not just a mess. It looks like a mistake, like there was some tragic accident at the factory and this was the result.
I don't find the new Crown ugly except for the weird treatment above the front wheel arches. The Crown was always meant to be Toyota's fleet vehicle, cab, town car, police car, etc. so everything from the windshield on looks about right. I actually like the look of the grille compared to something like an Audi's and it's a quick fix to just extend the bumper plastic all the way across if there is customer demand for that.

Quote:
I'm not saying all auto design has to be bold and controversial. There's a place for more conservative, understated design, just as there's a place for unabashedly funky boxmobiles. Audi's styling is at its best when it's understated, and the profile of the Porsche 911 is has evolved very little over the decades and the Porsche enthusiast community wouldn't have it any other way. But if you're going to speak up, say something. The new Crown is design diarrhea; it's messy and out of control and just embarrassing.
Porsche has tried many times to replace the 911. First with the 928 and later with the Cayman... One day Porsche drivers will realize the 911's engine is in the absolute wrong location, but until then Porsche will just slowly extend the car's wheelbase and slide the engine forward.
  quote
addabox
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: oaktown
 
2013-01-03, 02:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
See, I think of the A3 as a 5-door. A wagon to me is something that has the capacity for fold-up 3rd row.

When I think of popular wagons in the US, I think of the XC Volvos and the Subaru Legacy and that's pretty much it. I almost never see Audi A6 or VW Jetta wagons. I never see the Mercedes Benz E-Class or BMW 5-Series wagons at all. I never see the Cadillac CTS wagons either. Other than the Volvos and Subarus, I only ever see these cars on dealership lots in the SF Bay area.
Funny, cause I drive a Jetta wagon and there's a bunch of them around here (Bay Area). I only wish I had gotten the TCI (at the time I bought it I craved turbo fun), which commands a premium on the used market. Biofuel Jetta wagon is a great set-up, especially in Berkeley where there's a biofuel station.

That which doesn't kill you weakens you slightly and makes you less able to cope until you're completely incapacitated
  quote
Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2013-01-03, 11:16

Wagons will make a come back I am betting. Just give it a generation or two for the bad image to fade away and really high gas prices to get people out of crossovers. The best wagon out there is the CTS-V Sportwagon.

And Volt sales for 2012 were 23,000 units up from 7,600 last year. Glad to see it picking up some steam.

giggity
  quote
addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2013-01-03, 14:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
Wagons will make a come back I am betting. Just give it a generation or two for the bad image to fade away and really high gas prices to get people out of crossovers. The best wagon out there is the CTS-V Sportwagon.
I think the traditional wagon that most of us know here will stay an endangered species. That doesn't mean some won't try though. A few years ago Ford brought out the Freestyle which is pretty much the type of vehicle some here as asking for. Room for the family as well as your cargo. Nobody bought it. They then renamed it the Taurus X. Then they killed it. Buyers kept flocking to the CUVs which are really just taller versions of the wagons of old. They just make them look tougher.
  quote
Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2013-01-03, 14:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
I think the traditional wagon that most of us know here will stay an endangered species. That doesn't mean some won't try though. A few years ago Ford brought out the Freestyle which is pretty much the type of vehicle some here as asking for. Room for the family as well as your cargo. Nobody bought it. They then renamed it the Taurus X. Then they killed it. Buyers kept flocking to the CUVs which are really just taller versions of the wagons of old. They just make them look tougher.
Will people still buy crossovers when gas is $8/gallon? The question is what will automakers do. Will they hybridize their crossovers? Make them like the Volt? Or will they try to revive the wagon? There has to be a point where the American public will finally get past the poor image of the wagon simply because fuel prices have made crossovers impractical to own.

giggity
  quote
Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2013-01-03, 16:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
Buyers kept flocking to the CUVs which are really just taller versions of the wagons of old. They just make them look tougher.
Or they like the higher seating position. *raises hand* At 6'3", I feel like I'm in a hole when I sit in a standard height sedan or coupe. Never understood why a taller vehicle has to come with crappy efficiency. Yes, yes, I understand why it's that way *now*, since the CUVs, XUVs, etc, are generally built on modified truck or truck-derived chassis and underbases, but I don't know why they can't take a solid sedan base and simply change the suspension to lift the damned thing.

Oh. Right. Nevermind.

  quote
Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2013-01-03, 20:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
Or they like the higher seating position. *raises hand* At 6'3", I feel like I'm in a hole when I sit in a standard height sedan or coupe. Never understood why a taller vehicle has to come with crappy efficiency. Yes, yes, I understand why it's that way *now*, since the CUVs, XUVs, etc, are generally built on modified truck or truck-derived chassis and underbases, but I don't know why they can't take a solid sedan base and simply change the suspension to lift the damned thing.
Crossovers are built on car derived platforms which are unibodies. SUV's like the Tahoe/Suburban are the truck chassis with them being body on frame vehicles.
  quote
addabox
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: oaktown
 
2013-01-04, 03:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
Or they like the higher seating position. *raises hand* At 6'3", I feel like I'm in a hole when I sit in a standard height sedan or coupe. Never understood why a taller vehicle has to come with crappy efficiency. Yes, yes, I understand why it's that way *now*, since the CUVs, XUVs, etc, are generally built on modified truck or truck-derived chassis and underbases, but I don't know why they can't take a solid sedan base and simply change the suspension to lift the damned thing.

Oh. Right. Nevermind.

Things of beauty, they are.

I want this: an efficient tallish wagon with grown up styling sans butch cladding and ridiculous "rugged" design cues. I don't want an urban novelty box with club lighting ala Scion, or a retro novelty box ala whatever those American things were.

Is that so hard? It's why I bought that Jetta wagon, even though it was in full knowledge of the Mark V platform's legendary problems-- it was an affordable adult wagon that didn't look like ass. Anymore, I'd have to go way upscale to get anything like it, or feel like a fool driving around in some ludicrous rave-mobile. Why is the idea of cheap, efficient cargo space considered only the provenance of edgy urban youth?

That which doesn't kill you weakens you slightly and makes you less able to cope until you're completely incapacitated
  quote
Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2013-01-04, 07:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
Crossovers are built on car derived platforms which are unibodies. SUV's like the Tahoe/Suburban are the truck chassis with them being body on frame vehicles.
^ What Quagmire said. Even somewhat larger 'CUVs' like the Mercedes GL-Class and Jeep Grand Cherokee are unibody designs now.
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2013-01-11, 19:31

C7 Corvette leaked early.



  quote
Maciej
M AH - ch ain saw
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2013-01-12, 10:26

Mixed feelings about the styling of that rear end, but overall I think it reminds me too much of the Camaro.
  quote
Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2013-01-12, 21:01

I like the front-end, it reminds me of the Ferrari 599. I also agree the back could have used something more (or less.) I'm definitely not feeling the tailpipe treatment...
  quote
Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2013-01-13, 20:21

The Stingray is stunning, IMHO.... At least 450 HP and 450 lb.-ft of torque from the 5th gen Small Block V8, 7 speed manual, 26 MPG+ on the highway, 99 lb. lighter than the outgoing model, etc.

















Info and more pictures here

giggity
  quote
Yontsey
*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cleveland-ish, OH
 
2013-01-13, 20:28

Wow. That is one beautiful machine.
  quote
Dave
Ninja Editor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bay Area, CA
 
2013-01-13, 20:48

Yeah, I want one... badly...
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kieran
@kk@pennytucker.social
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2013-01-13, 21:39

I don't usually like the Vette, but that is gorgeous.
  quote
Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2013-01-13, 23:46

The more I look at it, the more I love it. The C7 may go down as one of the best designed Corvette in history. It makes the C6 look like complete garbage.....

giggity
  quote
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