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Matsu
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2012-02-07, 03:57

Excellently done on Nikon's part: Very reasonable price, IMHO. Very interested to see an exhaustive D800 vs D800E comparison.
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Matsu
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2012-02-07, 10:27

http://www.ephotozine.com/article/ni...n-review-18420

A tiny bit of D800 vs D800E comparison in the link above, but this is a very low contrast scene and it doesn't look like I couldn't coax a similar look from the D800 sample. I may goof around with it a bit at home tonight just to see...

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PB PM
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2012-02-07, 14:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
Excellently done on Nikon's part: Very reasonable price, IMHO.
Yup, same price as the D700 upon release, which is surprising, considering all the rumors pointing to a higher price. The MB-D12 battery grip doesn't add any speed, other than 1FPS extra for DX mode, which is a little disappointing. I really wish Nikon had introduced sRAW like Canon has on their high end models. It would be nice to shoot 15MP, or 24MP RAW rather than full res all the time. Note that the D800 shoots 16bit RAW, so the file sizes will be rather larger (76.5MB!). I guess Nikon wants to push action shooters up to the D4. With that being the case, I wont be upgrading from the D700 any time soon. Maybe in a year or so from now I'll pickup a used D3s instead.

Last edited by PB PM : 2012-02-07 at 15:01.
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Matsu
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2012-02-07, 14:40

I'm thinking the exact same thing as you. I'm 95% certain I'm getting a D800/800E (not sure which yet) when it comes out. For higher ISO/speed a used D3s may shape up to be the best deal and I will try to ad one of those when the right opportunity presents itself...

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PB PM
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2012-02-07, 15:10

If I was shooting landscapes more often I would trade my D700 in on the D800 (non-e), for the expanded dynamic range alone, not to mention being able to shoot at ISO50!

I'm strongly considering the D400, should there be one in the pipeline. The thing that is kind of pushing me towards getting a newer camera is the fact that you wont be able to get EN-EL3e batteries (genuine ones) soon. I don't like the idea of messing around with third party batteries in a $2000 camera, that short of a used copy, cannot be replaced. Sure my two batteries are fine today, but in two years from now I might be forced to shoot with AA batteries in the grip.
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Matsu
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2012-02-07, 22:15

I think Olympus did a very nice job on their E-M5

Check out this link

That behemoth next to it is a Rebel

But the most interesting size comparison is this one right here

Compact 35mm SLRs with good viewfinders are possible. If some company could pare down the feature set (and price) of a full frame DSLR so it fits in a OM4, or FE or AE-1 style body, then a compact camera wouldn't be limited to a m4/3. It'd be thicker of course, but not any taller or wider. The olympus has other nicities like the 5 axis video friendly stabilization and compact zooms, but a simplified retro-sized 35mm full frame would be just fine with some f/2 primes.

The clip on flash is a nice idea too.

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turtle
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2012-02-07, 23:49

I like the Rebel.

I'm looking to upgrade my body in the near future but not sure what I'm going to move to. I like the idea of moving to the 5D MkII for a full frame, but am likely going to end up with a T2i. My XT is showing it's age now. Though still takes great shots.

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PB PM
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2012-02-08, 02:52

The E-M5 does look very impressive. If I was going to switch from a DSLR system to mirrorless it would be the camera of choice for several reasons. First, price, $999 USD for a weather sealed body. Secondly there are some nice fast primes for m4/3s, 14mm F2.5, 25mm F1.4, 45mm F1.8 and 75mm F1.8. None of the other mirrorless systems can touch that, even Fuji. Heck you could get the E-M5 and a few primes for the price of the X Pro 1 alone.
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Matsu
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2012-02-08, 11:06

Sigma has just announced the updated DP series cameras with 15MP X3 (46mp) but little other information regarding price. So, maybe they're finally cranking this sensor out in quantity. I haven't heard or seen squat about the SD1 since the sensor was announced. The one or two reviewers I could find say basically excellent micro detail at low ISO, but blurring begins at ISO 800 and weird pattern noise at 1600 and up. If these cameras are cheaper, maybe we'll see a few more reviews of what the 15MP X3 can do.

Hey Turtle. I think the decision to buy one depends on what lenses you already own. The next year could turn into the perfect time to pick up a close out 5d2. If you don't have a huge investment in lenses, then change to whatever system offers the best full frame body lens options for your use.

I like the Rebels and Nikon APSC DSLRs. I tend to view them as a bridge to full frame and/or a professional use option - with the extensive lens selections that go with that. These days an APSC bag can be pretty complete, even though the best glass and focal ranges are still in full frame, APSC has it's place and a few advantages, and they're available in small sizes. However, while you can get kits lenses and DSLRs that individually are not much bigger/costlier than 4/3rds, the size, weight and cost of the whole bag - the whole system - that grows really fast.

When I look at the size and cost of some m4/3 glass, I think a lot of folks who have no intention of moving into larger formats, could be served really well by an m4/3 cam and a handful of reasonably priced, small, fast lenses. They'll carry them more often, they cost less, they print big enough for most under most conditions. But mostly they'll slip into a purse or fanny pack, or even a coat pocket or vest. They can be serious tools, but they don't have to feel like it unless you really want to carry lots of extra stuff.

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PB PM
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2012-02-08, 12:36

With the 5DMk 3 coming soon, they cannot leave the D800 unanswered, waiting till next year for the mk2 might be a little late. If I was a Canon user looking to go FF on the cheap I'd grab a used 5D, they can be had for under $1000 and performance is almost at D700 levels.

The Sigma SD1 is been renamed Sigma SD1 Merrill and drops in price to $2299 USD. Guess Sigma finally realized nobody was going to buy it at the price they were asking.

Last edited by PB PM : 2012-02-08 at 13:30.
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Matsu
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2012-02-08, 15:11

I'm away from a computer and just surfing a little on my phone. If the SD1 is so renamed and re-priced, it's finally sorta in the ball park it should have been at launch, but is it any better than a 5D2, A850/900, or D700? All are available for similar money and have access to better lens options, proven systems, and manufacturer support.

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PB PM
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2012-02-08, 17:29

I think in the low ISO range the SD1 offers better image quality. It is more of a landscape/portrait camera, and I suspect that it does surprisingly well at those things. Owners seem to be saying that the colours are great and have a lot of pop and great dynamic range at low ISO. It isn't a street or an event camera by any means. Is it worth $2299, IMO most likely not, but for those who want it and shoot with Simga mount lenses, I guess it could be.
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Matsu
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2012-02-09, 00:13

Quite decent performance from the E-M5 here:

http://www.omuser.com/viewthread.php?tid=179813
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PB PM
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2012-02-09, 04:35

Must be a busy link, takes forever to load.
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Chinney
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2012-02-09, 08:21

As a Sigma owner and somewhat of a Sigma partisan, I suppose I should comment. I am very interested in the new DP1 and DP2 releases, although a bit apprehensive about whether Sigma has ironed out the problems. Some issues with the new sensor, in its existence so far within the SD1, seem to be related to the inability of the Sigma proprietary software - SPP - to deal adequately with its raw images. There are some rumours that Sigma simply has not been able to devout adequate resources to SPP, which has always been a slow and inadequately-featured beast (I use it only for an initial conversion to 16-bit TIFFs and then deal further with them in Aperture). There are further rumours Sigma may be looking instead for a third-party solution, maybe even through Apple and Aperture. I have some doubts about those last rumours, but the inadequacy of SPP to deal with the new sensor seems clear.

I will also be interested to see if Sigma has ironed out, or at least improved on, the some deficiencies in operation of the the DP1 and DP2 line, including the poor quality LCD, very slow card write times, poor autofocus (especially low light), among others.

Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed shooting with my little DP1 and the results. I especially like its small size, light weight, and the easy manual focus capability. And within its operational range, it can produce some very nice images. Since its release, a lot of other manufacturers have moved into the high-quality compact domain, but all have produced cameras with their own drawbacks and weaknesses so that I have not yet been tempted to upgrade. The Fuji X100 is the closest I have seen so far, but its relatively heavy weight, very poor manual focus, and operational quirks and slowness have held me back even if it easily beats the original DP1 and DP2 on a number of other fronts. I will we closely following the the reviews of Sigma's new releases to see what my camera future will remain with them.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
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Matsu
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2012-02-09, 10:38

Chinney, do you shoot Sigma DSLRs also? I think Sigma's problem is that a lot of Nikon and Canon shooters just won't consider a Sigma 35mm DSLR, and there's not much they can do - with an APSC system - to change that.

In Sigma's shoes I would make a full frame X3 sensor. Let's say it had about 30 X3 megapixels, so 90MP equivalent. This they could charge 9-10K for, wouldn't have to shoot more than 2fps, probably only needs to work well from ISO 50-400/800, and it'd still be an interesting option to sell into the quasi-medium format market.

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PB PM
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2012-02-09, 14:21

The other problem Sigma has is that many shooters don't like Simga lenses, which holds plenty of people back from shooting with their cameras. I noticed dozens of comments on Dpreview saying, "if the SD1 had an EF or F mount I would..." etc.

As for the new DP series, some rumors are saying that the bodies could cost over $1500 each! Yikes!
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Matsu
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2012-02-09, 16:57

I think I've now absorbed enough D800 news to last me for a while. Interesting that the D700 stays in the line-up alongside the D800 outside Japan, and for the time-being so does the D3s - at least until stocks run out. Could lend a little credence to the idea that there will be three new FX DSLR's this year. After the first runs of D800 and D4 sell, towards the end of 2012, we get a higher fps D800h...

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PB PM
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2012-02-09, 17:31

That would be a great addition, maybe a 24MP D800h with 6FPS? Something tells me they want to keep the D4's 16MP sensor in that camera alone.
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Matsu
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2012-02-10, 04:50

There were all kinds of credible rumors of cameras in the field for nearly a year.

On the processing side, they have the latitude to do quite a few more FX variations. If I'm reading correctly, the D800 saves its RAW files into a 16 bit file. I'm missing a couple of things here. Firstly because the sensor is 14bit, and secondly because 36MPx16bpp equals about 58MB, not the 65-75MB files some (p)reviewers are reporting??? A D4 should be writing RAW files between 22-26MB (depending whether it to saves RAW into a 16bit file). Anyway, I'm going to assume that the D4's expeed is state of the art and that it's moving at least 242MB/s in order to write 16MP RAW files at 11fps, or incedently, 36MP RAW files at 4fps (all at 14bit because I don't get this 16bit stuff and the math doesn't add up for me)

Likewise 24MP RAW file should be about 33MB, so just nearly small enough for 7.5 fps with current expeed processors... hmmm

They have the platform - and likely the pre-production prototypes - to do a few different things depending on how sales shape up. Though this may not be as interesting as a 3rd full frame camera, if/when they do a 24MP DX camera, we can more or less predict its burst rate too. Though if they're going to do a pro-DX, it might be more fun to stick to 16MP and make it a mini-D4...

Options abound. They could even recycle the D3s sensor - which as far as high ISO shooting goes still looks state of the art. Perhaps in an even smaller, neutered, AF-S only body, and sell for around 2199. That might sell too well though...

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PB PM
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2012-02-10, 05:46

Yeah, because Nikon is worried about selling too many cameras.... I suspect production of the D3s sensor was stopped when the D4 sensor entered production. Nikon will also want to hold back a set amount for warranty/repair purposes.

The file size 76.5MB (average) being reported is by Nikon itself (check the website) not reviewers. Okay that seems high, but is that uncompressed or lossless compressed RAW? My guess is the former. Uncompressed 14bit images from the D700 are around 20MB. Also the D700, and now the D800 use a different method of transferring data from the sensor to digital (I read that somewhere, not sure of the source) than the D7000 and even the D4. Something about that makes the file sizes larger. This is believed to be the reason why the D700 sensor is slightly better than the original D3 sensor. For example, 14bit files from the D300s are smaller than the 14bit files from D700, despite the fact that they D300s has slightly more active pixels! Pixels alone don't tell the story!
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Dorian Gray
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2012-02-10, 06:47

The official D800 brochure says the camera records 12- or 14-bit raw files (not 16-bit), in compressed (lossy), lossless compressed, or uncompressed formats. 14-bit uncompressed files are given as 74.4 MB, while 14-bit lossless compressed (which is what most people will shoot) come in at 41.3 MB.

These files include the raw data and an embedded full-resolution JPEG for preview purposes, which is the main reason your maths doesn't add up exactly, Matsu. The embedded JPEG is sizeable because it's 7360 x 4912 pixels.

Nikon also typically errs on the side of caution with its file-size predictions. Most files will be smaller than these, weighing under 40 MB by my guess. That's roughly three times the size of my D700 files.

That said, CPU speed and storage space have more than tripled since 2007 when the D3 was launched with a surprisingly low pixel count, so having to deal with 40-megabyte raw files won't stop many people from getting this camera today. My new but humble Mac mini would handle the files easily, except perhaps if I was one of those people who take 2000 photos at an event and process them by the next day.

I'm looking forward to seeing some raw files!
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Chinney
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2012-02-10, 06:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
Chinney, do you shoot Sigma DSLRs also? I think Sigma's problem is that a lot of Nikon and Canon shooters just won't consider a Sigma 35mm DSLR, and there's not much they can do - with an APSC system - to change that.

In Sigma's shoes I would make a full frame X3 sensor. Let's say it had about 30 X3 megapixels, so 90MP equivalent. This they could charge 9-10K for, wouldn't have to shoot more than 2fps, probably only needs to work well from ISO 50-400/800, and it'd still be an interesting option to sell into the quasi-medium format market.
I actually don't have any DLSR, just my little DP1 (and my old film equipment).

I think the new much lower price for the SD1 will bring it within the range of affordability for the Sigma enthusiasts out there. I don't think they are going to crack the rest of the market. A full frame version might be of some interest, but Sigma is still only going to be a niche player in cameras. The will continue to be mainly a lens supplier, although not to PB.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
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PB PM
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2012-02-10, 07:08

I'm not against Sigma lenses, I even have one... okay it's an old MF lens from the 1980's, but it still counts.

I've strongly considered Sigma's fast wide primes 20, 24, and 28mm F1.8. So to say I don't like them is a little much. That being said, would I get the Sigma 70-200mm OS over the Nikon 70-200mm VR or trade my Nikon 24-70mm F2.8 for the Sigma version, most likely not!
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Chinney
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2012-02-11, 09:52

Fair enough. Actually, on my side, I have no idea what I would get if I actually were in the market for a DLSR. Not likely a Sigma actually, given that even at $2500 the DP1 is more than I would want to spend. I'd probably just get a decent but not high-end (maybe used) Nikon or Canon body and then look around for a very nice (non-kit, maybe used) prime and zoom to go with it.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.

Last edited by Chinney : 2012-02-11 at 10:11.
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Matsu
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2012-02-11, 10:40

I think that's still the only way to get into DSLRs. Both are equally good, complete systems, IMHO. Used Canon prices seem a little better FWIW. Nikon resale a little better. There's lots of new stuff already out this year, and a bit more coming, so it should be a good year to pick up some used gear.

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PB PM
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2012-02-11, 10:51

There are tons of good used Nikon body's out there right now. $300 bucks gets you a D80 or D70's, both good cameras, not low light kings, but still nice. $400-500 gets a D5000 or D90. Throw in $200 for a 18-105 VR (nice lens BTW) and your set. Of course for the same price you could get a 40D and a kit lens...
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Kyros
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2012-02-11, 23:13

Yah or a D300 for like $750 if you are lucky (granted, usually more like $900), it's ridiculous how cheap those bodies are now.
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PB PM
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2012-02-12, 00:44

Yup, the new cameras are pushing down the value of some good used (often lightly used) gear. Most of the used D300s and D700s I've seen on eBay have less than 6k actions! Not even broken in yet!
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PB PM
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2012-02-13, 20:10

Some of the early reviews of the Canon G1X are pointing out the same flaws we noted upon the announcement, such as poor battery life. Apparently the high ISO performance is good, better than m4/3s, but not by much.
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