[Sauvblanc]

Or rather a question about the properties of coffee beans...

The wife and I brought a very nice "prosumer" espresso machine and a decent conical burr grinder about a year ago. It took a while,a few lessons and some experimentation but I'm finally consistently making pretty decent espressos, lattes etc.

I get my beans reasonably freshly roasted direct from micro-roasters, so that quality and freshness is assured.

So here's the situation: Even using the same grind setting, dosing and tamper pressure for both types of beans, different beans will extract at different speeds. One will produce the magical 30 mls in 30 seconds, the other will either come out really slowly or gush out like Niagara Falls.

Why? The only variable in this equation is the beans, so what properties do the beans have that makes them extract so differently, everything else being reasonably equal?

Is it the roast (dark vs light), whether it's pure Arabica vs a mix of Arabica and Robusta, or...?

Can anyone shed some light onto this? It's more a curiosity of mine than anything else.

Thanks

[ezkcdude]

Originally Posted by Sauvblanc I get my beans reasonably freshly roasted direct from micro-roasters, so that quality and freshness is assured. So here's the situation: Even using the same grind setting, dosing and tamper pressure for both types of beans, different beans will extract at different speeds. One will produce the magical 30 mls in 30 seconds, the other will either come out really slowly or gush out like Niagara Falls. Why? The only variable in this equation is the beans, so what properties do the beans have that makes them extract so differently, everything else being reasonably equal? Is it the roast (dark vs light), whether it's pure Arabica vs a mix of Arabica and Robusta, or...? Can anyone shed some light onto this? It's more a curiosity of mine than anything else. Thanks

My guess is it's varying amount of oils in different beans, but that's just a guess really.

Out of curiosity, are you planning to get into DIY roasting? I've been roasting my own beans for a few years now.

[Ryan]

Every bean has a different sweet spot and dialing it in is a crucial step when getting a new coffee.

Are you dosing on a scale? That makes a huge difference, as does testing your tamping pressure on a bathroom scale. You should be at around 30lbs IIRC.

The difference comes not so much from the roast but the bean itself, each one is different. Just as some beans need 24 hours rest, some need a week. There are rough guidelines by region but those are nothing more than starting points.

Enjoy! I haven't been able to justify purchasing an espresso machine and grinder that can handle it yet, right now I just have a Chemex and Baratza Maestro Plus.

Out of curiosity, where are you ordering your beans?

[Moogs]

I'm still trying to decipher which type of nerd is more entertaining... wine nerds or coffee nerds.

[murbot]

Wow. My quest to brew the perfect espresso these days is figuring out exactly how long to hold the button in on my Tassimo. (T65 baby!!)

[Mugge]

Originally Posted by Moogs I'm still trying to decipher which type of nerd is more entertaining... wine nerds or coffee nerds.

Wine nerds!

The coffee nerds aren't getting screwed this hard just yet.

[Moogs]

Pwned. Apparently the Chinese have taken the time to "understand Pinot's potential."



Maya... she'll make even a beer guy turn grapey! She was magically bone-tastic in that movie.

[Xaqtly]

Originally Posted by Moogs I'm still trying to decipher which type of nerd is more entertaining... wine nerds or coffee nerds.

There is a car out here that I see on my commute sometimes. It has a window sticker that says "Life is a cabernet", and the vanity license plate reads "55 DGRS" I don't even know for a fact what 55 degrees means in the context of wine, but this guy is pretty clearly a wine nerd so I'm assuming it's optimum chilling temperature or something like that.

Also, here is everything I know about wine and coffee:

Wine = crushed grapes
Coffee = crushed beans

[Sauvblanc]

Thanks, ezkcdude and Ryan.

I haven't tried DIY roasting yet although I can see myself heading in that direction in a few years-perhaps when I buy my own house and get a proper barista station setup. I have a friend who does it-the possibilities are endless!

I don't measure, really, although I do know it does make a difference. I'll get more coffee beans into the basket by, for example, tapping the portafilter once or twice after filling it up halfway, then filling it to the top. Other times I'll just "overfill" the basket, tap it once, and level off the ground beans before tamping. It depends on how well things are extracting and the appearance of the crema. Tamper pressure comes from muscle memory-I've been making my own coffee for about 4 years now-we just upgraded to this fancy-ass machine.

I get my beans from a couple of different places, it depends on where I am and how much out of my way to or from work I can be bothered to go.

My favourite beans right now are from Padre Coffee. I get the "Daddy's Little Girl" blend.
Two other places are Seven Seeds and Market Lane Coffee.

Oh, yeah, I'm a total wine snob as well.

[Ryan]

What grinder and machine are you using?

[ezkcdude]

Originally Posted by Sauvblanc Thanks, ezkcdude and Ryan. I haven't tried DIY roasting yet although I can see myself heading in that direction in a few years-perhaps when I buy my own house and get a proper barista station setup. I have a friend who does it-the possibilities are endless!

Just to let you know, roasting is probably much easier than you think. I use the FreshRoast SR500 ($159), which is essentially like using a popcorn popper. It takes only a few minutes to roast, and makes enough for 2-3 days. Although there is the initial coast of the roaster, the green beans are actually quite a bit cheaper than buying roasted beans. I get my green beans from coffeebeancorral, and they usually ~$7/lb.

[Moogs]

Originally Posted by Xaqtly There is a car out here that I see on my commute sometimes. It has a window sticker that says "Life is a cabernet", and the vanity license plate reads "55 DGRS" I don't even know for a fact what 55 degrees means in the context of wine, but this guy is pretty clearly a wine nerd so I'm assuming it's optimum chilling temperature or something like that. Also, here is everything I know about wine and coffee: Wine = crushed grapes Coffee = crushed beans

Yah it's either a lattitude or a temperature. Life is a cabernet? "Yes, please... what's your best CAHB FRONC?"
You can add these facts to your ever-growing list of wine and coffee knowledge:

"Good" Wine = too expensive
"Good" Coffee = too expensive

"Good" Coffee = still tastes bitter and gives you bad breath.
"Good" Wine = tastes good and may have health benefits.

"Good" Wine = useful in seducing the object of your desires.
"Good" Coffee = unproductive, maybe even counter-productive in seducing the object of your desires (gives you both bad breath and makes her more alert).

Wine wins, but the nerd factor is still amusing.

[ezkcdude]

Good coffee is *not* expensive, and unlike wine, it's something that anyone can make for themselves.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Moogs "Good" Coffee = still tastes bitter and gives you bad breath.

Clearly you have not had good coffee.

If it's bitter, you're doing it wrong.

[Sauvblanc]

What Ryan said.

Most people don't realise that coffee is supposed to be a sweet beverage.

[Sauvblanc]

Originally Posted by Ryan What grinder and machine are you using?

Machine: Isomac Tea machine. It's about half-way down this page. Prices in AUD. The US price is probably $300-$500 cheaper than the AUD sale price listed. I really like this machine. We had tried a few others that looked very similar (like the La Vibiemme) and I would have been happy with any of them.

We had initially thought about getting a La Pavoni lever machine because it got good reviews and the aesthetic factor was pretty awesome. However, we spoke with a cafe shop owner who sells them, he said even he struggles with it-and he makes 700 coffees a day. Our friend has one and he makes shit coffees.

Grinder: Rancilio Rocky doserless grinder (~$400). It's a good entry level grinder.

It sounds like an expensive outlay, but the machine pays for itself in about a year or two on the basis of how much you save by not buying a cup of coffee.

[Sauvblanc]

Originally Posted by ezkcdude Just to let you know, roasting is probably much easier than you think. I use the FreshRoast SR500 ($159), which is essentially like using a popcorn popper. It takes only a few minutes to roast, and makes enough for 2-3 days. Although there is the initial coast of the roaster, the green beans are actually quite a bit cheaper than buying roasted beans. I get my green beans from coffeebeancorral, and they usually ~$7/lb.

That is cool. I might look into that more seriously now. Right now I pay ~$10 for approx. 1/2 lb (250 g) of roasted coffee.

Can you get decaf green beans for roasting? My wife has switched to decaf because she finds she gets too wired from drinking regular coffee. The caffeine has been extracted using the Swiss Water method and I find the flavour is excellent, so if it's possible to get decaf that's definitely worth a try...

[ezkcdude]

Originally Posted by Sauvblanc Can you get decaf green beans for roasting? My wife has switched to decaf because she finds she gets too wired from drinking regular coffee. The caffeine has been extracted using the Swiss Water method and I find the flavour is excellent, so if it's possible to get decaf that's definitely worth a try...

Yes, apparently (look for the "SWP").

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Sauvblanc Machine: Isomac Tea machine. It's about half-way down this page. Prices in AUD. The US price is probably $300-$500 cheaper than the AUD sale price listed. I really like this machine. We had tried a few others that looked very similar (like the La Vibiemme) and I would have been happy with any of them. We had initially thought about getting a La Pavoni lever machine because it got good reviews and the aesthetic factor was pretty awesome. However, we spoke with a cafe shop owner who sells them, he said even he struggles with it-and he makes 700 coffees a day. Our friend has one and he makes shit coffees. Grinder: Rancilio Rocky doserless grinder (~$400). It's a good entry level grinder. It sounds like an expensive outlay, but the machine pays for itself in about a year or two on the basis of how much you save by not buying a cup of coffee.

Nice equipment.

I'd pick up Scott Rao's book if you can find it in Australia and start there. Both his books are excellent and should be on any coffee drinker's shelf. He isn't always spot-on but it's a starting point (his Chemex technique is listless IMO).

[Moogs]

Originally Posted by Ryan Clearly you have not had good coffee. If it's bitter, you're doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by Sauvblanc What Ryan said. Most people don't realise that coffee is supposed to be a sweet beverage.

I have had fine Kona coffees (while staying on the islands), various Starbucks dozens of times, Dunkin, 4 star hotel coffee, 5 star restaurant coffee... I've NEVER had a coffee i could describe as "sweet," as in the sweet you get from fruit or sugar. All of them were different degrees of bitter (or... maybe there's a more precise word and I just don't know what it is). But I know "sweet" is the wrong word too. Ginger Beer is sweet, Orange-Mango juice is sweet, iced tea is sweet. Even some (non-chic) beers are slightly sweet. Coffee is not sweet. Hence the reason everyone puts sugar or cream (or both) in it, except those self-abusing people who like their coffee "black".

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Moogs I have had fine Kona coffees (while staying on the islands), various Starbucks dozens of times, Dunkin, 4 star hotel coffee, 5 star restaurant coffee... I've NEVER had a coffee i could describe as "sweet," as in the sweet you get from fruit or sugar. All of them were different degrees of bitter (or... maybe there's a more precise word and I just don't know what it is). But I know "sweet" is the wrong word too. Ginger Beer is sweet, Orange-Mango juice is sweet, iced tea is sweet. Even some (non-chic) beers are slightly sweet. Coffee is not sweet. Hence the reason everyone puts sugar or cream (or both) in it, except those self-abusing people who like their coffee "black".

We're talking about a whole different level of coffee here. Starbucks, Dunkin and the overwhelming majority of hotels/restaurants do *not* approach this.

Quality beans, roasted by a professional (i.e. not a giant factory ala Starbucks) to the appropriate level within 6-12 months of harvest, prepared by a barista at the appropriate temperature, grind setting, dwell time, etc. and served without cream or sugar will not be in any way bitter.

99% of the coffee in the world sucks. We're talking about that remaining 1%.

IIRC you're in Chicago? Go to Intelligentsia and order whatever coffee they're brewing in a Hario v60. Sweet? Maybe not, but it will change the way you think about coffee. And it won't be bitter.

There's a whole world of experiences to have with coffee. Come join us!

[Sauvblanc]

Again, Ryan is spot on.

"Sweet" as it pertains to coffee is a little different than the sweet from fruit or sugar or orange-mango juice.

Yes, go to Intelligentsia. When they opened up a place in Venice, CA, I was over the moon. It was a 15 min drive so we'd only go on the occasional Sunday morning. Totally worth the trip because their coffees were THAT good. Along the way we happily passed a million Starbuck's, Peet's, Coffee Beans.

There is a good reason why Starbuck's has never gained any serious traction here in Australia. You can get a better cup of coffee pretty much anywhere else. The only people who go to Starbuck's are the tourists...

[Moogs]

Intelligentsia eh? OK.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think "Starbucks is good", I just mean I've been to a lot of places that contend they are "serious about coffee" (I forgot to add Caribou to the list), and none of them made me want to go back except on occasions when I needed a caffeine boost or had to go for business reasons because some person I was with wanted to get a coffee. I will say some of the fresh Kona coffees had more interesting flavors than the usual but I still wasn't like "man this is different; i need this daily!"

[ezkcdude]

In terms of chains, I'd say my favorites for coffee are Dunkin Donuts and Einstein Bagels.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Moogs Intelligentsia eh? OK. And don't get me wrong, I don't think "Starbucks is good", I just mean I've been to a lot of places that contend they are "serious about coffee" (I forgot to add Caribou to the list), and none of them made me want to go back except on occasions when I needed a caffeine boost or had to go for business reasons because some person I was with wanted to get a coffee. I will say some of the fresh Kona coffees had more interesting flavors than the usual but I still wasn't like "man this is different; i need this daily!"

FWIW, most wouldn't consider Caribou to be serious about coffee. There are probably <100 places in the country that can say that and mean it.

[709]

This thread makes me feel a whole lot better about being a microbrew snob.

[Moogs]

Beer FTW. It's Not Bitter ™.

[ezkcdude]

I made beer bread the other day.

[tomoe]

Re serious coffee shops, one thing that sets of alarm bells (for me) is how the shop make their iced coffee. That is, whether it's cold-brewed or not. If not, then I'm usually wary.

Originally Posted by Moogs Beer FTW. It's Not Bitter ™.

I take it you've never quaffed an IPA?

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by tomoe Re serious coffee shops, one thing that sets of alarm bells (for me) is how the shop make their iced coffee. That is, whether it's cold-brewed or not. If not, then I'm usually wary.

Same here!

Other tell-tale signs:

Expresso.
Anything caramel, vanilla or chocolate.
No roast dates on their beans.
No farm information on their beans.
Anything with a push-button.
Airpots.