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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2017-05-02, 15:44

I like the colors, I guess? Not sure what they're like in real life.

Lots of questions about build quality. How's the keyboard, how's the trackpad (good lord, are there still some horrible, horrible trackpads in the PC world).

Ports-wise, it apparently has: "1 x USB 3.0, headset jack, Mini DisplayPort, 1 x Surface Connect™ port" So that's kinda weird. Apparently they went for a proprietary port for their dock and for charging. No USB-C, no multiple USB ports, no USB 3.1. (Not to mention no Thunderbolt.)

Interestingly, while the screen supports touch and the device supports the Surface Dial, they emphasize that you can apparently not, in fact, place the Dial on the screen.

It hits the $999 price point, but, come on, really, it does not. At that price tag, it has 4 GB RAM. Even Apple's cheapest MacBook model I could find doesn't go that low. Nobody should ever buy this configuration. (Unless, that is, the RAM is user-upgradeable?)

If you configure it to 8 GB, however, it automatically goes to a 256 GB SSD as well, at which point it's already $1,299. What if you want 16? You have to opt for the i7 CPU option first ($1,599); then you can bump the RAM, which also bumps the SSD. Now you're at 16 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD. $2,199.

For comparison with Apple: starts at 8 GB / 256 GB; that config is $1,499 or $1,799 with Touch Bar. $200 more each for 16 GB RAM. Another $300 more each for an i7, and yet another $200 for a 512 GB SSD, so by then you're at $2,199 / $2,499 with Touch Bar. You can go further than that and get a 1 TB SSD for another $400.

So Apple is definitely pricier here, but not by that much.

A little cheaper than Apple, but not much.

Also:

Quote:
Microsoft claims the Surface Laptop is faster than the i7 MacBook Pro
This is a weird statement. They don't appear to have any quad-core options, so already, they have a massive performance disadvantage compared to any 15-inch MacBook Pro. So they must mean, more specifically, the 13-inch one.

So I'm guessing the Surface Laptop has Kaby Lake-U, likely at 28 W. They probably mean that a top end Surface Laptop (which starts at $1,599) is faster than a 13-inch MacBook Pro with i7 (which starts at $1,799), but simply by virtue of being one generation newer? Kaby Lake vs. Skylake yields about 10%. That's not nothing, but if that's really all they're saying, it seems an odd thing to point out.

I welcome the competition. It'd be far more interesting for me if there were a 15-inch option, higher RAM options, but if it helps drive down Apple's prices, I'm not going to complain.
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chucker
 
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2017-05-02, 15:46

Also, never mind the colors comment: those are apparently only available for a single configuration?
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chucker
 
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2017-05-02, 15:54

A different interesting aspect is the software. It comes with Windows 10 S, which is a Windows RT-esque Windows Store-only locked down edition. No traditional, non-converted desktop apps.

You can upgrade to regular Windows 10 for $49.

Imagine if you could upgrade iOS to allow sideloaded applications for $49?
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2017-05-02, 20:52

Looks like free upgrade to Windows 10 Pro until some time in 2018.

What is with the cloth top? I mean, maybe it would feel more comfortable to use off the start, or maybe it will look like a used car's front seats in short order.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
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2017-05-02, 20:56

Not looking good.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2017-05-02, 20:58


That's just gross man.
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El Gallo
Formerly “MumboJumbo”
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
 
2017-05-02, 22:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I like the colors, I guess? Not sure what they're like in real life.

Lots of questions about build quality. How's the keyboard, how's the trackpad (good lord, are there still some horrible, horrible trackpads in the PC world).

Ports-wise, it apparently has: "1 x USB 3.0, headset jack, Mini DisplayPort, 1 x Surface Connect™ port" So that's kinda weird. Apparently they went for a proprietary port for their dock and for charging. No USB-C, no multiple USB ports, no USB 3.1. (Not to mention no Thunderbolt.)

Interestingly, while the screen supports touch and the device supports the Surface Dial, they emphasize that you can apparently not, in fact, place the Dial on the screen.

It hits the $999 price point, but, come on, really, it does not. At that price tag, it has 4 GB RAM. Even Apple's cheapest MacBook model I could find doesn't go that low. Nobody should ever buy this configuration. (Unless, that is, the RAM is user-upgradeable?)

If you configure it to 8 GB, however, it automatically goes to a 256 GB SSD as well, at which point it's already $1,299. What if you want 16? You have to opt for the i7 CPU option first ($1,599); then you can bump the RAM, which also bumps the SSD. Now you're at 16 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD. $2,199.

For comparison with Apple: starts at 8 GB / 256 GB; that config is $1,499 or $1,799 with Touch Bar. $200 more each for 16 GB RAM. Another $300 more each for an i7, and yet another $200 for a 512 GB SSD, so by then you're at $2,199 / $2,499 with Touch Bar. You can go further than that and get a 1 TB SSD for another $400.

So Apple is definitely pricier here, but not by that much.

A little cheaper than Apple, but not much.

I welcome the competition. It'd be far more interesting for me if there were a 15-inch option, higher RAM options, but if it helps drive down Apple's prices, I'm not going to complain.
I'm not certain Apple is really the standard or even what is being aimed for here. Most coverage I've read on this notes it is Microsoft's attempt to counter the fact that Chromebooks are pushing everyone else out of education. Anyone who is going to want to buy this to actually take the place of a Mac is going to opt for more than Windows 10S.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2017-05-02, 22:23

Yeah, I forgot this was said to be competing with Chromebooks. How is that possible with a $1000 entry point?
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chucker
 
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2017-05-03, 00:49

I think people are confused by the two different product announcements. Windows 10 S is definitely about competing with ChromeOS in education, but the Surface Laptop is, at best, only relevant to that in the sense that the Pixel provided an idealized reference of what a Chromebook should be like. I don't think they're under any illusion that this is going to hit the classrooms.
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El Gallo
Formerly “MumboJumbo”
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
 
2017-05-03, 06:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I think people are confused by the two different product announcements. Windows 10 S is definitely about competing with ChromeOS in education, but the Surface Laptop is, at best, only relevant to that in the sense that the Pixel provided an idealized reference of what a Chromebook should be like. I don't think they're under any illusion that this is going to hit the classrooms.
Right that is the point. This is the idealized reference. The comments in most reviews are already noting dozens of vendors that beat it on features, port, price point, etc. I doubt the laptop itself will do much of anything. However the HP and Acer $250+ variants are supposed to fight the Chromebook tide that has hit all classrooms.

And..........this will do nothing to fix that. Schools are so thrilled with their carts full of Chromebooks that do nothing more than link to the cloud and are all easily interchangeable. They all seem to weigh about 2.5 lbs. They are durable enough. At my site kids carry them around all day. Most of them are the same coveted dimensions that original Macbook Air was noted for, 8x11x.5 or right around the size of an actual paper notebook. They boot instantly, last 8-10 hours on a charge and do everything that the iPad can't with no keyboard. I think most schools are probably getting them at $200-250 per unit with a 3-4 year warranty.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2017-05-03, 13:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
So I'm guessing the Surface Laptop has Kaby Lake-U, likely at 28 W. They probably mean that a top end Surface Laptop (which starts at $1,599) is faster than a 13-inch MacBook Pro with i7 (which starts at $1,799), but simply by virtue of being one generation newer? Kaby Lake vs. Skylake yields about 10%. That's not nothing, but if that's really all they're saying, it seems an odd thing to point out.
Looks like they use 15 W parts, going by what they list as the GPU. That just makes the assertion even more out of place.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2017-05-03, 20:39

Yeah, I didn't think about it as a new OS version as much as new hardware sporting a new OS. With $200 notebook form third party builders I can see an appeal for it. Though needing something truly cloud based like an actual Chromebook seems more realistic for the younger audience. They never lose their files and can get to them from anywhere. Google is happy for all the tracking data and usage information too.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2017-05-04, 10:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Lots of questions about build quality. How's the keyboard, how's the trackpad (good lord, are there still some horrible, horrible trackpads in the PC world).
I have a Surface Pro at work. The keyboard cover is pretty decent; assuming this uses the same underlying design, it should be good. Doesn't hold a candle to an external keyboard + mouse, but then nothing does. And I need dedicated F-keys and a number pad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Ports-wise, it apparently has: "1 x USB 3.0, headset jack, Mini DisplayPort, 1 x Surface Connect™ port" So that's kinda weird. Apparently they went for a proprietary port for their dock and for charging. No USB-C, no multiple USB ports, no USB 3.1. (Not to mention no Thunderbolt.)
Looks like the same ports as on the Surface Pro 3 and 4, so you can use those accessories on it. I know Thunderbolt isn't technically proprietary to Apple but for practical purposes it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
It hits the $999 price point, but, come on, really, it does not.
Agreed. Specs are weak for the price. $999 isn't even cheap. Cheaper than Apple but not overall. Pretty pathetic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
This is a weird statement. They don't appear to have any quad-core options, so already, they have a massive performance disadvantage compared to any 15-inch MacBook Pro. So they must mean, more specifically, the 13-inch one.
Just standard marketing speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I welcome the competition. It'd be far more interesting for me if there were a 15-inch option, higher RAM options, but if it helps drive down Apple's prices, I'm not going to complain.
It's too expensive to compete with Chromebooks or cheap Windows laptops. They are using the sleek design to justify selling a $500 laptop for $1000. I guess it worked for Apple so why not jump on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
A different interesting aspect is the software. It comes with Windows 10 S, which is a Windows RT-esque Windows Store-only locked down edition. No traditional, non-converted desktop apps.

You can upgrade to regular Windows 10 for $49.

Imagine if you could upgrade iOS to allow sideloaded applications for $49?
Poor analogy. This would be like shipping MacBooks with a version of OS X where you can only use the app store and the setting to allow outside software requires a payment to disable. This is supposed to be a laptop, not a tablet/toy.

Windows 10 S(hit) is garbage and will hopefully be trashed within a couple years when it becomes obvious that it's too restrictive. I understand the security advantages to optionally disallowing non-app store apps, especially in an educational setting, but for anyone else it's crap. People expect that from their phones.

The Windows Store will not catch on. Windows 10 S doesn't even allow stuff like Steam or GOG to work because those programs install other programs (games). There's a Steam app in the Windows store but it's just used for chatting with your friends list.
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Eugene
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2017-05-04, 13:49

The iPad Pro is a toy? Have you seen the latest "Twitter" ads where it's marketed as a laptop replacement?

The line between iOS and macOS, tablet and laptop is more of a smudge at this point. That convergence is happening whether you like it or not.
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Luca
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Join Date: May 2004
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2017-05-04, 16:08

I hate the idea of computing devices that are locked into only corporate-approved software. That doesn't necessarily mean the iPad Pro is a toy - also remember that the Apple app store is way better than the Windows app store. That's a major factor in why the iPad Pro is a more viable PC than a Surface laptop without real Windows 10.

Also. "Marketed as." I haven't seen the ad but nothing will convince me that allowing the manufacturer to control which software I am and am not allowed to install is acceptable.

Basically, Apple can get away with it because they have the apps to support it.
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chucker
 
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2017-05-04, 17:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
I have a Surface Pro at work. The keyboard cover is pretty decent; assuming this uses the same underlying design, it should be good. Doesn't hold a candle to an external keyboard + mouse, but then nothing does. And I need dedicated F-keys and a number pad.
Surely the Surface Tablet's keyboard is robust than a keyboard cover?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
Poor analogy. This would be like shipping MacBooks with a version of OS X where you can only use the app store and the setting to allow outside software requires a payment to disable. This is supposed to be a laptop, not a tablet/toy.
That may become the case in a possible future where the Windows Store has, well, more 'serious' apps (for instance, MS Office is apparently coming later this year). But not so much right now.

(That's not to say the Mac App Store is not without its own problems.)

For now, the Windows Store is more comparable to a mobile platform stores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
Windows 10 S(hit) is garbage and will hopefully be trashed within a couple years when it becomes obvious that it's too restrictive. I understand the security advantages to optionally disallowing non-app store apps, especially in an educational setting, but for anyone else it's crap. People expect that from their phones.
To be fair, there's efficiency advantages as well. They've found ways to reduce the footprint, for obvious reasons. Maybe they'll eventually manage to merge some of those gains back to regular Windows 10.

But mostly, yeah, this is another Windows RT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
The Windows Store will not catch on. Windows 10 S doesn't even allow stuff like Steam or GOG to work because those programs install other programs (games). There's a Steam app in the Windows store but it's just used for chatting with your friends list.
Right.

This is Microsoft not knowing, precisely, what it wants the Windows Store to be.

If they ever progress in their Windows 10 Mobile (née Windows Phone) stages of grief to acceptance, they'll be able to fix that. Throw UWP out, make WPF great again™ and… uh. I guess if they find an answer to why anyone would want or need Windows Store, that can stay.
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chucker
 
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2017-05-04, 17:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
I hate the idea of computing devices that are locked into only corporate-approved software. That doesn't necessarily mean the iPad Pro is a toy - also remember that the Apple app store is way better than the Windows app store. That's a major factor in why the iPad Pro is a more viable PC than a Surface laptop without real Windows 10.

Also. "Marketed as." I haven't seen the ad but nothing will convince me that allowing the manufacturer to control which software I am and am not allowed to install is acceptable.

Basically, Apple can get away with it because they have the apps to support it.
Of the many problems facing the iPad Pro, I don't think the centralized app store is a significant one. There's problems with that, both philosophical and practical, but it just doesn't strike me as that high a priority.
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Eugene
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Join Date: May 2004
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2017-05-04, 18:12

Either way, if you feel the locked down OS is an issue after purchase, it's a $50 correction. No big deal IMO.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2017-05-08, 19:38

Really, most of the consumers out there don't care about being locked down. If you are on this forum and in this thread then you really aren't most people. Being limited to an App Store isn't horrible to most. In fact they love the idea that the app has been vetted in some way and shouldn't result in malware.

For an IT department they would love to have limitations like this.

The fact it's a cheap upgrade (or free for now) makes it more livable. Then again, I'm not going to pay $1000 for that laptop.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
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2017-05-09, 00:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Really, most of the consumers out there don't care about being locked down. If you are on this forum and in this thread then you really aren't most people. Being limited to an App Store isn't horrible to most. In fact they love the idea that the app has been vetted in some way and shouldn't result in malware.
This is all true, but it depends a lot on the store's reputation. Windows Store honestly doesn't yet have that much (after five years of existing), because Windows 8 failed to popularize "Modern Apps", Windows 10's UWP isn't gaining that much traction either, and Windows Phone / Windows 10 Mobile were almost dead on arrival. So on no platform target — phones, tablets, laptops, desktops, … — did Windows Store actually flourish.

Might change. So far hasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
For an IT department they would love to have limitations like this.
Eh, they do. They have for a long time. Locking down Windows to only run IT-approved apps has been possible since the Windows 2000 days, and basically before that.

The problem is 1) their tooling is too user-hostile, 2) they tend to go so overboard that their attitude, too, is perceived as hostile by coworkers.

Windows Store feels friendlier than that, even if it doesn't change the underlying theme. Ironically, if anything, it's even more hostile, even if it doesn't feel that way: now, instead of your colleagues from IT locking down your stuff, it's a corporation thousands of miles away. Ain't no talking to those guys.
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Luca
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Join Date: May 2004
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2017-05-09, 10:28

This is why limiting users to the Windows 10 store isn't good:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C--YR-cXcAAku47.jpg

MS cannot get scam apps under control. They don't allow other browsers on the store, and when you type in "Chrome" you get all that shit. Paid "user guides" designed to take money from gullible or tech-illiterate people.

What happens when someone in this laptop's target audience is told by their banking website that they have to download Chrome because the site doesn't support Edge? Their only option is the store, and that's what they see. They don't necessarily know that Chrome isn't supported in Windows 10 S, or that they have to pay extra money just to enable the option to install non-store apps.

I just feel like this could easily backfire and I don't see any chance of it suddenly revitalizing the Windows store. Only ignorant people will buy a laptop with 4 GB of RAM for $1000, and those same people aren't going to know what the hell is going on once they get it.
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chucker
 
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2017-05-09, 13:04

https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/9/15...abric-cleaning

Quote:
Just like anything luxury that you buy, like great handbags or a pair of shoes or even expensive cars, there is a care that’s needed for the device.
Oh, OK. So it's a laptop for the education market, but also $999, but also for students, but also a luxury item. Also, apparently handbags constantly get exposed to heat, grease, and dust the way a laptop millimeters away from a CPU, your palm, and a cooling fan does? If only handbag makers had known, they'd make their future products aluminum-based.

Microsoft still culturally can't decide "this product is X. It's not Y, and definitely not Z, and that's fine". As soon as someone points out flaws for X, they handwave them away by arguing "well, that doesn't matter, because it's also Y and Z!"

Still in the "no compromises" era.
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