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10th Anniversary of September 11 - Social and Political Discussion


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10th Anniversary of September 11 - Social and Political Discussion
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Moogs
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2011-08-30, 10:37

The historical significance, the wars, Arab Spring, where we go from here as a nation and as western nations in general, the politicians, angry muslims, peaceful muslims, Israelis and Palestinian connections and importance, all of it goes here. Discuss the rebirth of the place in the other thread. Figured it would be good, since the TV is starting to overflow with shows about the topic, to compartmentalize the two different aspects of the discussion.

...into the light of a dark black night.
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billybobsky
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2011-08-30, 13:11

Let's see: Arab spring has nothing to do with religion; just a divestment of the region from its dictatorial/autocratic regimes which arose from policies of European and American nations during the cold war.
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2011-08-30, 13:13

Moogs, any thoughts of your own, to ignite a discussion?
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Moogs
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2011-08-30, 14:28

Sure. I didn't want to color the discussion by directing it one way or another but here are a few thoughts I have:

Military Policy
It's time (past time actually) to redefine what "the war on terror" means.

I think we've seen pretty clearly that:
a) you can't fight a traditional war (where there is a winner and loser) against people who are largely running around in the back alleys of cities, and mountains of Whereveristan. We entered World War II in 1942 (effectively), and by August 1945 it was over. Think about that. Three and half years. We've been in Iraq (now slowly but steadily paring down forces there as the situation has stabilized) for almost 3x as long, same with Afghanistan. And yet, we have a more unstable / unpredictable result. Was it worth it? Will five more years be worth it? Ten more?

b) we've captured or killed many of the "chiefs" in our enemy's networks, but as we have found out, there's always someone ready to take the chief's place. Who we're fighting is more akin to a hodge-podge of gangs linked across international borders, than any type of militia or army. There will never be talk of surrender or armistice with these people, because there is no central authority among them. Moreover they don't think the way we think about things. There is no defeat. It's carry out the mission or die trying (literally) and make sure your sons do the same thing. There’s no sense of “well if x, y and z happen… we’re finished and must admit defeat.”

The question is, when do "we the people" say "enough"? Are we willing to accept that the only kind of indefinite war we can afford to fight (if we're committed to constant vigilance - and it seems we are), is a "war behind the scenes". Constant intel-sharing with other countries and agencies, small spec ops missions, drone and cruise-missile based airstrikes that might take place anywhere in the world (not a declared battleground)? I think I am prepared to accept that. I am also prepared to admit that I will never be totally safe because I live in a free country. If it’s easy for me to get around and communicate with people, it’s easy for my enemies, unfortunately. That’s just the way it is.

Mosque down the street from Ground Zero
Not a fan. First, I thought it was supposed to be a community center for all faiths, not a mosque, but now it seems that the community center chap has bailed and the owner of the building is just going to fight to have a regular mosque put there. That by itself bugs me because it smacks of "bait-and-switch". It's one thing to build a religious center where all faiths can come to pray and interact, another entirely just to slap a mosque down there.

Legally, you can make the argument they have the right to do it. However I find it disrespectful and frankly wonder how obtuse the building owner and whoever steps in to build a mosque, are as people. You want to be part of the community and promote inter-faith dialogs (allegedly)? A-OK! But… is it so bad to suggest that you might want to do that another few blocks down the road? They’re damaging their own cause IMO. Swallow your damn pride and build it a little further away where the emotional wounds aren’t so raw.


Generally
I think the only way we’ll look back on this in 20 years and say “I’m glad that era is over and that the world is no longer threatened by muslim extremism,” is if the muslim leaders themselves (the non-violent type who want everyone to have jobs, get a vote, live in peace, etc) will have to do the heavy lifting. To me the Arab Spring is at least a sign that this is possible. That there are thousands of people who will fight for their basic rights to live a normal life and not be threatened by governments or coerced by muslim tribes or sects to comply with their agenda. Logic or political ideals cannot be imposed on these people from the outside, least of all from us or Britain or other western countries.

Also, I am going to burn the flag of the first (western) country that caves to political correctness and allows Sharia law to be enforced alongside real law that the rest of the citizens have lived by. Separation of Church and State must (ironically) be “sacred”. That first domino must never be allowed to fall or things will go from bad to much worse in a hurry. Some in England almost tried to promote this idea a couple years back, including the numbnut Archbishop of Canterbury.

If you’re muslim and you find our western laws objectionable, STAY HOME. You want to live among us and integrate with our societies and share your stories or whatnot… live by our laws like everyone else. No one will prevent you from worshipping, but nor should anyone tolerate you beating your wife because you believe she is unfaithful or impure, or stoning your neighbor for stealing or whatever. Our countries are not a "legal free-for-all"; you don't get to impose your own laws by acting as judge and jury for every incident. We have laws and courts and juries and appeals and the rest. Get used to it. I don't feel arrogant in the least when I proclaim, in this respect, "our way is better". A lot better. And not just for us, for you too if you'll only open your mind a bit and trust that the system works better than the ones you know.

...into the light of a dark black night.

Last edited by Moogs : 2011-08-30 at 14:45.
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billybobsky
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2011-08-30, 16:08

Moogs:

I have yet to hear a coherent rational why a mosque even on the site of the two towers would be disrespectful. Care to provide one? Or is it just a truthiness feeling?

No one would blink twice about a church being built on the site of the OK city bombing, and yet Tim McVeigh was a 'christian soldier'. There were Muslim victims of 9/11. I don't see any reason for the disconnect between these two cases.
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Brave Ulysses
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2011-08-30, 16:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
Moogs:

I have yet to hear a coherent rational why a mosque even on the site of the two towers would be disrespectful. Care to provide one? Or is it just a truthiness feeling?

No one would blink twice about a church being built on the site of the OK city bombing, and yet Tim McVeigh was a 'christian soldier'. There were Muslim victims of 9/11. I don't see any reason for the disconnect between these two cases.
this will be fun
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709
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2011-08-30, 16:26

Hitler! Joos! Rule 34! Egg noodles!
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Moogs
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2011-08-30, 18:04

What's Rule 34? Was that written by His Noodly Appendage? (Or maybe with ... His Noodly Appendage? I'm not clear on proper phrasing.)


Bobsky: there is no truthiness or falsiness involved, such as with math equations and non-governmental, non-Wall-Street accounting principles. It's a subjective thing. Ask 20 people you're likely to get at least... 4 different answers. Like I said, legally... there's no argument. To me it boils down to, IF your objective is to promote healing and bond with the community, THEN you would be unwise to build a mosque that close to the WTC, because what you're going to do is anger and frustrate and alienate the very people who you want to communicate with in a serious way and have them understand you better.

Maybe I'm insane for thinking that. I've been called worse. Now, if it turns out that the mosque doesn't happen and what does happen is an inter-faith community center (perhaps sponsored by a mosque somewhere else in the city), where anyone feels welcome and there are community events / talks held, I don't have a problem with that. That seems like a positive thing.

And no, I don't think there should be any religious institution built on the site of any tragic attack (Pearl Harbor, OK City, Ground Zero, etc). Nor do I think anyone would suggest it, so it's sort of a disingenuous argument you're advocating there (devil's advocate I mean). I suspect you don't literally believe it's a good idea.

...into the light of a dark black night.
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billybobsky
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2011-08-30, 18:44

I don't actually care, and that's just it, I don't care nor should anyone else.

It isn't relevant to anything either for us the peanut gallery, the people of NY, the victims and their families... it just doesn't matter; just like it does matter that there was a Dutch grave yard near the site, and before that an indian burial ground (probably). It doesn't matter that slaves lived and died on the docks where the site is. It doesn't matter that planes crashed into two buildings there and killed a little more than 3000 people. It doesn't matter. Commemorating the event as we have chosen to doesn't prevent it from recurring which is what we should be focusing on doing. Letting a Mosque be built, and engendering a respect from Muslims everywhere does fractionally make things better.

So, really, who the fuck cares? Making things difficult for peaceful people is no way to stop wars. Letting rage and bigotry guide our policies is a good way to start them.
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709
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2011-08-30, 19:34

And bad tower design. Let us not forget that all designers are deep-down angry people capable of anything.









I will not put a winky-face here. No I won't.

So it goes.
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thegeriatric
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2011-08-30, 20:09

Tftfy.
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Xaqtly
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2011-08-30, 20:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
Egg noodles!
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faramirtook
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2011-08-30, 20:30

I think it's beautiful and rather in tune with the spirit of America that there can be a mosque near the World Trade Center site. Tolerance is near the core of American philosophy, and I like this. I don't think it's insensitive at all. Those people were terrorists first, brainwashed second. They were informed by a corrupted strain of a major world religion. Any voluminous and literary teaching, like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is subject to interpretation, and interpretation + an agenda can yield very powerful results.

It's also a big fuck-you to the kind of sociopaths that misuse the teaching of a peaceful religion, to me. Here's a place for normal, peaceful Muslims to worship. They're just as appalled at terrorism and violence as the rest of us.

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Brave Ulysses
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2011-08-30, 20:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
I don't actually care, and that's just it, I don't care nor should anyone else.

It isn't relevant to anything either for us the peanut gallery, the people of NY, the victims and their families... it just doesn't matter; just like it does matter that there was a Dutch grave yard near the site, and before that an indian burial ground (probably).
Except it is relevant to those people. You saying it isn't doesn't change the simple fact that they feel it is.



Quote:
So, really, who the fuck cares? Making things difficult for peaceful people is no way to stop wars. Letting rage and bigotry guide our policies is a good way to start them.
I guess that's the whole point? Why make things difficult for peaceful people? Build the fucking mosque a bit further away. Why try to prove a point in a hostile environment with severe emotional connections? Why try to force it through because you have "the right" and because it SHOULD be "irrelevant".

Last edited by Brave Ulysses : 2011-08-30 at 22:13.
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alcimedes
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2011-08-30, 21:19

Meh, IMO the whole mosque thing was manufactured news/rage. I don't think it was all that honest. Some conservative radio people got a chubby for the issue, and brought it to the angry masses.

Plus, how many feet are enough feet before you're being "respectful"?

100 feet, 500 1,000? 10,000?

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ezkcdude
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2011-08-30, 21:32

Honestly, I'm more worried in 2011 about Christians taking my rights away in this country than Muslims.

I saw a poll recently that said the Tea Party was less popular than Muslims and atheists, and I thought to myself, what a sad inditement of America that Muslims and atheists are expected to breath a sigh of relief after learning they are not the most hated groups in America. Go team.
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torifile
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2011-08-30, 22:02

So your reason for not wanting a mosque near the WTC site is because of...political correctness? Really?
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Moogs
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2011-08-30, 22:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by faramirtook View Post
I think it's beautiful and rather in tune with the spirit of America that there can be a mosque near the World Trade Center site. Tolerance is near the core of American philosophy, and I like this. I don't think it's insensitive at all. Those people were terrorists first, brainwashed second. They were informed by a corrupted strain of a major world religion. Any voluminous and literary teaching, like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is subject to interpretation, and interpretation + an agenda can yield very powerful results.

It's also a big fuck-you to the kind of sociopaths that misuse the teaching of a peaceful religion, to me. Here's a place for normal, peaceful Muslims to worship. They're just as appalled at terrorism and violence as the rest of us.
All interesting points. I had considered the "it's the American thing to do" idealistic angle. I guess I just feel more strongly that it's hallowed ground and while there are some anti-muslim nuts in the fray too (whose opinions should [NOT] be conflated with people like myself), it's really about the families and remembrance and sort of doing right by them for lack of a better phrase. But of course that's just a feeling, not a law or a right. Hence the debate. Maybe Bobsky is right and in 20 or 30 years it just won't matter anymore. Time does have a way of making people less angry about wrongs done to them... .


Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile View Post
So your reason for not wanting a mosque near the WTC site is because of...political correctness? Really?
Don't know if you're talking to me but no. If you go back and look my reasoning has to do with accomplishing the objective (so stated anyway by some parties) of mending fences and bringing a better understanding among people of faiths, who are tied to that neighborhood by a very emotional event. I think it's a noble goal, and I also think they're going about it the wrong way, even if they DO have the right to build a mosque there. And they do. No question about that. To me I guess you could say it's a question of pragmatism and common sense, given the stated goals.

...into the light of a dark black night.

Last edited by Moogs : 2011-08-31 at 10:56.
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billybobsky
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2011-08-30, 23:20

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Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Except it is relevant to those people. You saying it isn't doesn't change the simple fact that they feel it is.
Aw, poor babies. Tell them to get in line behind the people who feel evolution is inherently wrong, those that feel god is punishing the us, those that feel 9/11 was an inside job, etc. We aren't a society driven by the whims of an emotional group who have no gain/loss in a mosque built 6 blocks away from the world trade center.



Quote:
I guess that's the whole point? Why make things difficult for peaceful people? Build the fucking mosque a bit further away. Why try to prove a point in a hostile environment with severe emotional connections? Why try to force it through because you have "the right" and because it SHOULD be "irrelevant".
Its a good thing your nebulous concept of what is right has no bearing on reality. You are making an argument that actions should only be done if you deem them politically correct. And that is complete and utter intellectual drivel. Who's forcing it through -- it was approved easily even with the vocal and violent protesters opposing it.

More ink has been shed on this subject than needs to have been.
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FFL
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2011-08-30, 23:38

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Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
We aren't a society driven by the whims of an emotional group who have no gain/loss in a mosque built 6 blocks away from the world trade center.

I really like the way Jon Stewart put it:
If you abandon your values at the first moment they're tested, they're not values, they're hobbies.
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Brave Ulysses
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2011-08-31, 06:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
Aw, poor babies. Tell them to get in line behind the people who feel evolution is inherently wrong, those that feel god is punishing the us, those that feel 9/11 was an inside job, etc. We aren't a society driven by the whims of an emotional group who have no gain/loss in a mosque built 6 blocks away from the world trade center.
You are incredibly out of line.
Quote:
Its a good thing your nebulous concept of what is right has no bearing on reality. You are making an argument that actions should only be done if you deem them politically correct. And that is complete and utter intellectual drivel. Who's forcing it through -- it was approved easily even with the vocal and violent protesters opposing it.

More ink has been shed on this subject than needs to have been.
That's not what I'm saying at all. It's just common sense. Something that is unfortunately lacking in today's society.

Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean you should always do it.

This mosque was simply a way for one man with an ego to try to make a point and raise all these issues. He's not interested in building community or showing compassion.
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alcimedes
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2011-08-31, 08:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
This mosque was simply a way for one man with an ego to try to make a point and raise all these issues. He's not interested in building community or showing compassion.
My understanding was that this had been in the works for quite some time, without a peep. It wasn't until conservative radio got a hold of the issue that it blew up.

If it really were about ego and shoving something down people's throats, I would have expected the publicity much sooner.

However, I might be wrong about when/how this topic started becoming an "issue" at a national or NY state level.

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Brave Ulysses
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2011-08-31, 09:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
My understanding was that this had been in the works for quite some time, without a peep. It wasn't until conservative radio got a hold of the issue that it blew up.

If it really were about ego and shoving something down people's throats, I would have expected the publicity much sooner.

However, I might be wrong about when/how this topic started becoming an "issue" at a national or NY state level.
hardly some time... i think 2009.

it wasn't conservative radio, although they definitely fanned the flames without a doubt.

the issue inevitably came up when the proposal was brought before community boards and NY papers covered the story and the proposal.

Are you saying that if this just sprung up one day without anyone noticing, that after it was built, no one would have been upset?

All buildings go through a review process, and a public review process.

it blew up to a national level after it was a big NY issue. it blew up even further once the president weighed in.

Going back to billybobsky's inappropriate comments... I try not to tell people how they are suppose to feel. There are a lot of people offended by this. A lot of those people have suffered greatly. I know legally they have a right to build a mosque 2 blocks from the WTC site, but that doesn't mean they should do it, especially after such a strong public backlash. Plus, why build a mosque there anyway? it's a business district. Surely a mosque would better serve an actual community where people live. it's very much a case of one man, proving a point. Legally, sure, build it. But I would hope some common sense would play into that decision too.

Last edited by Brave Ulysses : 2011-08-31 at 09:54.
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billybobsky
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2011-08-31, 09:49

No, I am not out of line. The people who don't want a Mosque near the WTC site are not thinking rationally. They should be ignored, and hopefully will be.


As for not telling people how to feel: that doesn't work when people have feelings that are destructive to civil society. Bigots should be told that their thoughts and feelings are wrong. To be sure, the people who actively oppose this project and are seeking state interference limiting the freedoms of the organizers are bigots; they are wrong.
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Brave Ulysses
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2011-08-31, 09:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
No, I am not out of line. The people who don't want a Mosque near the WTC site are not thinking rationally. They should be ignored, and hopefully will be.


As for not telling people how to feel: that doesn't work when people have feelings that are destructive to civil society. Bigots should be told that their thoughts and feelings are wrong. To be sure, the people who actively oppose this project are bigots; they are wrong.
The only bigot right now appears to be you who believes he knows all and is always right and everyone else should share his views, thoughts and opinions.
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billybobsky
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2011-08-31, 09:54

That would be an ad hom... bye bye BU...
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Brave Ulysses
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2011-08-31, 09:55

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That would be an ad hom... bye bye BU...
ok
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billybobsky
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2011-08-31, 10:04

Just to make it clear that you are wrong: I am not a moral relativist. Not everyone's ideas/feelings are worthy of full support -- the evaluation of an idea starts with simple rules: is it rational (ie founded on logic and supported facts), does it or action derived from it impinge on freedoms to individuals granted by law; etc.

The feelings of the people who are against this development are not rational, and as you freely point out actions derived from those feelings impinge on the freedom of the organizers of the cultural center.

Thus these people's ideas and viewpoints are easily, and completely dismissed. They should shut up and back down because they are wrong.
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alcimedes
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2011-08-31, 10:06

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hardly some time... i think 2009.
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/w...mosque_origins

Is the Salon timeline inaccurate then? I couldn't find any real negative press until May 2010.
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Brave Ulysses
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2011-08-31, 10:07

you are wrong, and as much of a bigot as those who you criticize may be.

That is all.

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