[kieran]

With the Winter Meetings starting this week, figured it'd be a good time to start a new thread for next season.

Hell of a way to open the meeting with the Nationals grossly overpaying Jayson Werth for 7 years/$126 million. Now, I loved Werth in Philly, but I think some (most?) of his success comes from playing in a great lineup. I don't think he'll be able to sustain those kinds of numbers if he's the centerpiece of a team.

[SKMDC]

I just read the Cubs are considering James Loney as a free agent at first base. Apparently they are to scouring the mediocre for a miracle, ala the Jim Riggleman/Don Baylor years.

[Argento]

I'm more interested to see who they get to fill the void for Santo.

[SKMDC]

Keith Moreland did a really great job, subbing for Santo and Brenly, (on TV) he would be my choice.
They were talking about all the famous Santo radio stories on ESPN radio friday, man, I thought I was going to die laughing.

[kieran]

Tons of Cliff Lee to the Nationals rumors this morning. Washington is apparently going to offer him a huge contract.

I really like this new Washington team. Makes everyone else get better, including the Phillies.

[SKMDC]

What else have the Nationals done? Signed Werth, but lost Dunne, I think that's a downward move or break-even at best.
The Cliff Lee thing, is Lee posturing so he can really soak the Yankees, his wife began the process last year by complaining about Yanks fans boorish behavior, that was probably worth a million extra a year.
I heard she adores a penthouse view.

[kieran]

The Nationals even being in the discussion for 1 major free agent, yet alone 2, just shows how much the FO has changed direction this year.

Yes, the Werth deal was stupid and is probably a break-even deal at best with them losing Dunn, but it was a big splash.

The Nats have been sitting on money for a few years, so to actually see them spending some of it is a good sign.

[SKMDC]

Take away the games that Strassberg pitched they had about 25,000 empty seats per game in a brand new stadium. Strassberg won't be there this year, something has to be done, Werth & Zimmerman aren't enough. If Cliff Lee chooses the Nats I will be very very surprised.

[kieran]

You and the rest of the baseball world.

Losing Strasburg for an entire year kills them. He was a major draw for them and I hope he comes back full strength.

On the attendance factor, I was there for the season opener last year. Their stadium is awesome, but the day I was there, it was about 75% filled with Phillies' fans to see Roy Halladay's debut. It's sad. Nats fans don't evne get out to support their own team.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by kieran On the attendance factor, I was there for the season opener last year. Their stadium is awesome, but the day I was there, it was about 75% filled with Phillies' fans to see Roy Halladay's debut. It's sad. Nats fans don't evne get out to support their own team exist.

Fixed it.

[Brave Ulysses]

Cliff Lee. Phillies. Wow. Just wow.

[SKMDC]

The sound you hear are Yankees twisting in the wind. Hey Carl Pavano is still out there!

[kieran]

Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee! Cliff Lee!

As you can tell, I'm pretty freaking excited.

Halladay, Lee, Oswalt, & Hamels? Phillies are going to the World Series again.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by SKMDC The sound you hear are Yankees twisting in the wind. Hey Carl Pavano is still out there!

Really? I think it was a gift to them and prevented them from making a pretty ridiculous financial commitment.

[Elysium]

The typical reply today seems to be the "Meh, we never really wanted him anyways. We're better off without him" response.

Fools.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Elysium The typical reply today seems to be the "Meh, we never really wanted him anyways. We're better off without him" response. Fools.

Really? 24 million a year guaranteed for 6-7 years for a mid to late 30s pitcher is pretty foolish in my personal opinion.

All of a sudden the Yankees rotation is awful? they too have a Cy Young winner, a 23 year old who won 18 games, Andy Pettite (if he comes back) who was having one of his best years, and AJ Burnett who really should be better than he was. Or do we forget how bad Hamels was in 2009 since he had a good year last year?

[Maciej]

I'm not too worried, honestly I'm with BU.

It's refreshing to see someone go with their heart and not after all the money tho.

[kieran]

Reason 4,586 why Cliff Lee is already loved in Philly.

At his re-indroductory press conference, regarding money: "At a certain point, enough is enough."

Can't wait for spring training.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by kieran Reason 4,586 why Cliff Lee is already loved in Philly. At his re-indroductory press conference, regarding money: "At a certain point, enough is enough." Can't wait for spring training.

Except, at 24 million a year and 27.5 million in his option year... he really didn't take less money.... sooooo

(In fact, he may actually end up making more.)

[Elysium]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Really? 24 million a year guaranteed for 6-7 years for a mid to late 30s pitcher is pretty foolish in my personal opinion.

I was referring to the idiot fans around here who assumed that he would sign with NY and went on and on about how he was such an awesome upgrade to their roster.

Only to have them disparage the guy at every turn once he turned their team down for less money.

The length and size of the contract is irrelevant to me in that such a signing would not hamstring the Yankees at all. In my opinion, signing Jeter again (fan sentiment be damned) is a much bigger than any signing of Lee could ever be.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Elysium I was referring to the idiot fans around here who assumed that he would sign with NY and went on and on about how he was such an awesome upgrade to their roster. Only to have them disparage the guy at every turn once he turned their team down for less money. The length and size of the contract is irrelevant to me in that such a signing would not hamstring the Yankees at all. In my opinion, signing Jeter again (fan sentiment be damned) is a much bigger than any signing of Lee could ever be.

Except it wasn't really for less money The way this has been portrayed in the media has been suspect and bias. Starting with the initial signing leak that said it was for $100 million. In the 36 hours since, the total has just continued to go up as the details of the deal have been clarified. The only thing Lee left on the table was a guaranteed 7th year really. Otherwise he is making $24 a year, which is $1-2million more than the Yankees were going to pay him and he could potentially make $27.5 in year 6 which would be $3.5-5million more than the Yankees were going to pay him in year 6.

The signing would definitely have been problematic for the Yankees in years 4-7 if Lee started to fade which, odds are, that he will, especially in years 6 and 7.

Jeter... eh, he's making the same money as he was making, he is a Yankee "legend", first ballot hall of famer and a year ago he had one of his best seasons ever. And the Yankees had no shortstop in the waiting.... so, how exactly is that a poor signing?

[Elysium]

Nevermind. I should just stick to my own rule and never try and argue with Yankee fans.

You just don't win.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Elysium Nevermind. I should just stick to my own rule and never try and argue with Yankee fans. You just don't win.

Believe me, I'm not trying to argue. I'm just trying to understand your point. What am I missing? I may be a Yankee fan but I am just as critical of them as most Yankee haters.

There was an article today in the NY Daily News that was just pathetic and desperate in its attempt to say that the Phillies are an aging franchise that is weak.

My issue is with people saying that Cliff Lee left money on the table or "spurned" the Yankees money. He didn't. He's actually being paid the same if not more in Philly. And yes, it seems like he really likes playing in Philadelphia as well.

Then the issue of Jeter, I just disagree with you. I don't see why that's a bad signing. I thought it would be bad if he got what he was asking for, but paying the guy the same average salary as he has made the last 10 years to finish his career in NY? Sounds reasonable to me.

[kieran]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses My issue is with people saying that Cliff Lee left money on the table or "spurned" the Yankees money. He didn't. He's actually being paid the same if not more in Philly. And yes, it seems like he really likes playing in Philadelphia as well.

This post has been eating at me all day. Cliff Lee left money on the table. He'll make less to pitch in Philly. Simple as that.

ESPN.com

Lee left a huge pile of money on the table by Blue-Collar Joe standards, but not so much by Major League Baseball standards. If his 2016 option with the Phillies vests, he'll make $135 million over six years with the Phillies. The Yankees, in contrast, were offering $148 million over seven. Lee's $24 million AAV -- or average annual value -- surpasses Sabathia's $23 million per year with New York as the highest ever for a pitcher. Contrary to the perception in some quarters, the players' association has absolutely no reason to nitpick Lee's decision.

Simply put, Lee wanted to pitch in Philadelphia and was more than happy to take a deal with a bit less money. It's "only" $13 million, but it's still a difference.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by kieran This post has been eating at me all day. Cliff Lee left money on the table. He'll make less to pitch in Philly. Simple as that. ESPN.com Simply put, Lee wanted to pitch in Philadelphia and was more than happy to take a deal with a bit less money. It's "only" $13 million, but it's still a difference.

All day? That's a bit extreme, It was posted 2 hours before your reply.

The fact remains, he took the highest paying per season deal. It was more money than the Rangers offer, and more money than all but the 7 year offer from the Yankees, and that was only because of number of years. When this news broke, the story was that he took less money, and it was $100 million, then it went up to $120 million, now it's in the $132 million range.... so yea... the whole, it wasn't about the money thing is pretty empty. And the final price definitely makes less of an amazing deal for the Phillies, they are paying a shitload of money to this guy. If they were willing to pay him $24 million a year, why all the secrecy about it? It's not like they got an amazing deal, they paid what he was looking for.

Plus, if you really want to make a point about leaving "13 million dollars" on the table, then I'll make the point that with the income tax savings of PA vs NY that that 13 million is probably wiped out over 6 years.

edit: But, really, it's not an argument, I just find it funny how everyone is saying this guy is a hero or a great example of an athlete not interested only in money. He wanted to pitch in Philadelphia more so than New York. It's simple as that. For all intents and purposes, the money was about the same. Not sure what the big deal is here.

[kieran]

Ok, I exaggerated a bit, but yours wasn't the first thing I had read yesterday along those lines.

Yes, he'll make more per year in Philly, but in the end, he still left money on the table to sign with the Phillies. The reason that this is being talked about so much is that it is very rare to see a player do that, especially with all of the Players' Associations out there clamoring for every dollar they can.

You hit the nail on the head with that last paragraph. He simply wanted to pitch in Philly the most and when the deals were close enough in length and money, he went with that one.

[SKMDC]

New York and Texas contracts had deferred money in them, Phillies didn't.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by SKMDC New York and Texas contracts had deferred money in them, Phillies didn't.

Phillies have deferred money too. He is only making 11 million next year

[SKMDC]

The way it was spoke unto me, was Phillies is back-ended, Yankees & Rangers pay was after the five years, dunno, maybe I heard it incorrectly.

[kieran]

Nope, you heard right.

The Phils just back-ended the deal. Lee will be making a smaller amount this upcoming season, but his salary will double next year and he'll make over $20 million/year for the rest of the contract.

The Yanks & Rangers were just going to pay him a smaller salary and defer some of that money for a few years.