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ksec
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Join Date: Feb 2007
 
2007-02-18, 08:42

I am using the latest MacFUSE 0.2.1
MacFUSE Tools 0.17 r - 1
NTFS - 3G 20070207

Was these suppose to have automatic locale selection? if it did then it is not working ><.

and the echo command wasn't working in terminal for some strange reasons.

Edit: I figure out may be because my external name was too compliated. So to get around the problem you can manually create the ntfs-locale with the locale name you want in it.
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wesley96
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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2007-02-18, 10:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfGed View Post
FUSE filesystems in general are not designed for high-throughput applications; it simplifies the process of writing filesystem drivers, but introduces enormous overhead when moving data between the kernel and userspace.

Many people have mentioned the problems before; part of the issues are NTFS-3G, but part of it is just a limitation of FUSE. This is true of both Linux and OS X, I would imagine.
I'm curious as to why the throughput drops so significantly, though. I might manage something like 2~3MB/s, but 200KB/s is ridiculous. Surely, there must be a way of improving this? (?_?)
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chucker
 
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2007-02-18, 10:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by wesley96 View Post
Surely, there must be a way of improving this? (?_?)
Not on our part, I'm afraid.
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ShadowOfGed
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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2007-02-18, 13:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post
I am using the latest MacFUSE 0.2.1
MacFUSE Tools 0.17 r - 1
NTFS - 3G 20070207

Was these suppose to have automatic locale selection? if it did then it is not working ><.

and the echo command wasn't working in terminal for some strange reasons.

Edit: I figure out may be because my external name was too compliated. So to get around the problem you can manually create the ntfs-locale with the locale name you want in it.
Yeah, the .ntfs-locale file is as "automatic" as it gets for now. Any true automatic detection will have to be coded as part of NTFS-3G, and that kind of patching is beyond the scope of this simple distribution.

Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter.
  quote
ksec
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Join Date: Feb 2007
 
2007-02-18, 14:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by wesley96 View Post
I'm curious as to why the throughput drops so significantly, though. I might manage something like 2~3MB/s, but 200KB/s is ridiculous. Surely, there must be a way of improving this? (?_?)
According to mailing list on NTFS-3G performance issue are related to MacFUSE rather NTFS-3G itself.
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ShadowOfGed
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2007-02-18, 17:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post
According to mailing list on NTFS-3G performance issue are related to MacFUSE rather NTFS-3G itself.
True, but NTFS-3G's website also admits that the NTFS-3G codebase has undergone little (if any) performance optimization; right now, emphasis is placed on functionality and stability. So once they have a stable code base, there will probably be room for improvement on both halves.

That said, I'm sure the same is true of MacFUSE. As I said before, FUSE isn't really intended for high-volume filesystems right now.

Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter.
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szaka
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Join Date: Feb 2007
 
2007-02-18, 18:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfGed View Post
FUSE filesystems in general are not designed for high-throughput applications; it simplifies the process of writing filesystem drivers, but introduces enormous overhead when moving data between the kernel and userspace.

Many people have mentioned the problems before; part of the issues are NTFS-3G, but part of it is just a limitation of FUSE. This is true of both Linux and OS X, I would imagine.
Hi,

On Linux the bottleneck is the disk, typically. That is, you can not notice if you use ntfs-3g or an in-kernel filesystem. The low performance on Mac OS X is probably due to lack of the buffer cache for block devices and MacFUSE's synchronous writes. More info and potential solution (ublio): http://code.google.com/p/macfuse/iss...id=65&can=1&q=

Ntfs-3g is architected to exploit the Linux kernel's buffer cache and IO scheduler for high reliability and performance. This is one of the many reasons I prefer the hybrid driver naming against the user space one. The overall effect is the result of several user and kernel space subsystem intentionally designed cooperation. The lack of a component can result anomalies, such as low performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfGed View Post
True, but NTFS-3G's website also admits that the NTFS-3G codebase has undergone little (if any) performance optimization; right now, emphasis is placed on functionality and stability.
Yes, however the driver architecture, I mentioned previously, is very important. We didn't need to reinvent the wheel, instead we use the in-kernel subsystems and enjoy their benefits, so we can focus on functionality, stability.

The optimization mostly refers to the high CPU usage which could be much less. E.g. 1-5% instead of the current 10-50%. There are only a few scenarios when the driver can't saturate the disk, e.g. if the disk is much faster (> 100 MB/s) relative to the CPU speed, or degrading performance writing several GB big file on a close to full volume, or very metadata intensive operations.

Cheers, Szaka

Last edited by szaka : 2007-02-18 at 18:47. Reason: Posts merged
  quote
ShadowOfGed
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2007-02-18, 20:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by szaka View Post
Ntfs-3g is architected to exploit the Linux kernel's buffer cache and IO scheduler for high reliability and performance. This is one of the many reasons I prefer the hybrid driver naming against the user space one. The overall effect is the result of several user and kernel space subsystem intentionally designed cooperation. The lack of a component can result anomalies, such as low performance.

Yes, however the driver architecture, I mentioned previously, is very important. We didn't need to reinvent the wheel, instead we use the in-kernel subsystems and enjoy their benefits, so we can focus on functionality, stability.

The optimization mostly refers to the high CPU usage which could be much less. E.g. 1-5% instead of the current 10-50%. There are only a few scenarios when the driver can't saturate the disk, e.g. if the disk is much faster (> 100 MB/s) relative to the CPU speed, or degrading performance writing several GB big file on a close to full volume, or very metadata intensive operations.

Cheers, Szaka
That's good to know; sounds like Linux provides enough caching to reduce the number of kernel<->userspace transactions? I'd like to see performance improve, but for now I think it's enough (for most people) just to have R/W access to NTFS.

Looks like we'll just be waiting for improvements from MacFUSE.

Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter.
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szaka
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Join Date: Feb 2007
 
2007-02-19, 09:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfGed View Post
That's good to know; sounds like Linux provides enough caching to reduce the number of kernel<->userspace transactions?
Actually it almost doubles those transactions. They are very cheap compared to disk performance. What it significantly reduces and optimizes is the kernel<->disk transactions. That is what's missing on Mac OS X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfGed View Post
Looks like we'll just be waiting for improvements from MacFUSE.
When MacFUSE will support asynchronous writes then the write performance may change significantly.
  quote
dude
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Join Date: Jan 2007
 
2007-02-20, 17:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfGed View Post
FUSE filesystems in general are not designed for high-throughput applications; it simplifies the process of writing filesystem drivers, but introduces enormous overhead when moving data between the kernel and userspace.

Many people have mentioned the problems before; part of the issues are NTFS-3G, but part of it is just a limitation of FUSE. This is true of both Linux and OS X, I would imagine.
No, I have no complaints with Ubuntu 6.10/FUSE/NTFS-3G. Copying files from ext3 to ntfs and ntfs ext drives is pretty fast. 4.7gig iso from ext3 to ntfs takes just under 7min. Copying the same iso to ext ntfs drive takes about the same time as USB2 allows.

Atm, MacFuse can't be compared with the fuse development under Linux. I just sit back with the latest macfuse/ntfs-3g stable and wait for an optimized package.
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wesley96
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sol 3
 
2007-02-21, 07:54

Looks like NTFS-3G has reached an official 1.0, and MacFUSE website has a FAQ on NTFS-3G's slow write performance. Looks like this problem won't be solved any time soon...
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cbreaker
 
 
2007-02-21, 15:21

All slow write performance issues aside, this is awesome!

Finally, we can make changes to NTFS disks. Many times, I just need to read from them, or make small changes like delete files or transfer smallish things. 1MB/sec is a lot better then not being able to do anything at all. It's livable.

Most of my disks, external etc are NTFS because FAT32 can't do files larger then 4GB. Lately, I've been making some disks HFS+ since MacDrive for Windows is pretty good, but that's a hassle if the disk isn't ejected properly (MacDrive doesn't have a "check disk" utility to check HFS+, so they're mounted R/O.)

NTFS-3g is very good software. It's amazing, in fact. It could turn NTFS into the next FAT - if everything can R/W NTFS without corruption (I never thought the day would come) then I don't see why not! Well, besides the fact that Microsoft could change the spec at any time..

----

Update: I have observed performance for two local (IDE) NTFS disks (Seagate 500GB and Seagate 160GB) to be around 10MB/sec to 20MB/sec. Usually floating somewhere around the middle. That seems totally acceptable to me. Is it faster for me because the disks are local?

I'm running MacFUSE 0.2.1 and ntfs-3g 1.0.

Last edited by cbreaker : 2007-02-21 at 15:51. Reason: Performance Update
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dude
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Join Date: Jan 2007
 
2007-02-21, 18:57

Upgrading to MacFUSE-Core-0.2.1 and running next to NTFS-3G 20070207 shouldn't break anything should it?
  quote
cbreaker
 
 
2007-02-21, 20:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by dude View Post
Upgrading to MacFUSE-Core-0.2.1 and running next to NTFS-3G 20070207 shouldn't break anything should it?
That's what I did at first; it worked. Can't hurt to try it =) Computers can always be fixed.
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ShadowOfGed
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earthsea
 
2007-02-22, 00:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by dude View Post
Upgrading to MacFUSE-Core-0.2.1 and running next to NTFS-3G 20070207 shouldn't break anything should it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbreaker View Post
That's what I did at first; it worked. Can't hurt to try it =) Computers can always be fixed.
Yep, this should be fine. Also, there were no notable changes in NTFS-3G between 20070207 and 1.0 (in fact, it was just a re-branding of the current builds).

So I'm going to be a bit lax in getting out a 1.0 package; you're not missing out on any features or improvements.


Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter.
  quote
ksec
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Join Date: Feb 2007
 
2007-02-23, 11:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbreaker View Post

Update: I have observed performance for two local (IDE) NTFS disks (Seagate 500GB and Seagate 160GB) to be around 10MB/sec to 20MB/sec. Usually floating somewhere around the middle. That seems totally acceptable to me. Is it faster for me because the disks are local?

I'm running MacFUSE 0.2.1 and ntfs-3g 1.0.
I dont understand what you mean by local becoz all NTFS 3G drive are mounted as Network Drive. And i would be happy if i get any where near 10MB/sec.
But current i dont ><
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veggieryan
 
 
2007-02-23, 17:49

is there any way to mount a dmg image of an NTFS disk?
i need to restore this image. it was a backup made with copycatx.
I am able to mount other ntfs drives with no problems.

when I try to mount it i get this error:
Code:
john-smiths-computer:~ johnsmith$ sudo /usr/local/bin/ntfs-3g /Users/johnsmith/Documents/"windows xp backup.dmg" /Volumes/windowsxp -o ping_diskarb,volname="windowsxp" Bootsector checksum failed. Failed to startup volume: Invalid argument Failed to mount '/Users/johnsmith/Documents/windows xp backup.dmg': Invalid argument The device '/Users/johnsmith/Documents/windows xp backup.dmg' doesn't have a valid NTFS. Maybe you selected the wrong device? Or the whole disk instead of a partition (e.g. /dev/hda, not /dev/hda1)? Or the other way around? john-smiths-computer:~ johnsmith$ mount ? mount: ?: unknown special file or file system. john-smiths-computer:~ johnsmith$
  quote
szaka
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Join Date: Feb 2007
 
2007-02-24, 05:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by veggieryan View Post
Bootsector checksum failed.
The solution for this was the only fix in the ntfs-3g 1.0 release.
  quote
joostp
 
 
2007-02-25, 09:31

I'm having troubles getting write support on my Sweex externe hard drive.
I've tried the automatic package that circulates on the internet but no success.
So I tried the more basic way as described earlier in this topic.
It all goes well but in the last steps I encounter trouble (I'm not an hero in terminal).

I get this message in the terminal.

Code:
Joost$ ntfs-3g /dev/disk1s1 /Volumes/"Secundary CTU backup server" -o force ping_diskarb,volname="Secundary CTU backup server" You must specify exactly one device and exactly one mount point. ntfs-3g 0.20070118-BETA - Third Generation NTFS Driver Copyright (C) 2005-2006 Yura Pakhuchiy Copyright (C) 2006-2007 Szabolcs Szakacsits Usage: ntfs-3g device mount_point [-o options] Options: ro, force, default_permissions, umask, uid, gid, fmask, dmask, locale, show_sys_files, no_def_opts, streams_interface. Please see the details in the manual. Ntfs-3g news, support and information: http://www.ntfs-3g.org
  quote
anbs
 
 
2007-02-25, 12:34

I am getting the following error when I try to mount a NTFS partition (on my external USB drive):

Code:
Code:
$ ntfs-3g /dev/disk1s3 /Volumes/Ext3 -o ping_diskarb,volname=Ext3 Failed to open /proc/filesystems: No such file or directory Failed to open /proc/filesystems: No such file or directory Failed to create /dev/fuse: Operation not permitted kextload: /Library/Extensions/fusefs.kext loaded successfully mount_fusefs: fusefs@0 on /Volumes/Ext3: Operation not permitted
I used MacFUSE 0.2.1 and the ntfs-3g-1.0 driver and followed the chucker's instructions from here:http://forums.applenova.com/showpost...1&postcount=11
I'd appreciate any help regarding this. Thanks.
  quote
dude
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
 
2007-02-26, 13:15

After upgrading to MacFUSE-Core-0.2.2, I'm VERY happy camper. I managed to copy a 2.5gig Parallels virtual drive from HFS to internal NTFS drive & vise versa in under 2.5 minutes. This falls along the same time line as Fuse/NTFS-3G/Linux. Secondly, I can now mount my Parallels virtual drives residing on an NTFS host drive. We can now work on Windows guest OS and Linux Servers guest OS, in what ever host OS we prefer using as long as we have Parallels installed.

I don't know when these behaviors changed but I am definitely sticking with MacFUSE-Core-0.2.2 and NTFS-3G 20070207.
  quote
ShadowOfGed
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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2007-02-26, 17:00

Well, I'm still seeing about 1.1MB/s transferring from a local HFS+ drive to an external NTFS drive.

But, here's some good news. I've updated the Tools to finally work well with the new MacFUSE notifications. I know it's been a long time coming, but I'm a lazy bum. Also, I've built NTFS-3G 1.0, so here's the latest versions of everything:
I'm happy to report that, with MacFUSE 0.2.2, the Finder issues appear to be gone. All the sizes appear appropriately upon first mounting the drive. Hopefully everyone else will see similar results!

As always, the normal .ntfs-locale and .ntfs-readonly files still apply; see the included documentation for details. If anything acts up, aside from known speed issues, please post here and I'll try to see what's going wrong.

Enjoy!


Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter.

Last edited by ShadowOfGed : 2007-02-26 at 17:15. Reason: Clarified.
  quote
dude
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Join Date: Jan 2007
 
2007-02-26, 22:19

Thanks for the new build! I agree that transferring HFS to ext USB NTFS is a bit slow. I did a tested on a 452MB ISO from ext USB NTFS to local HSF and it took exactly 5.5minutes. 452MB ISO from local HSF+ to ext USB NTFS to took 7min 20 sec.

Now I just have to make sure Apple didn't release a USB patch during 10.4's evolution.

Quote:
I'm happy to report that, with MacFUSE 0.2.2, the Finder issues appear to be gone. All the sizes appear appropriately upon first mounting the drive. Hopefully everyone else will see similar results!
Ditto. All ntfs drive report proper size after reboots and and ext. USB mounting.
  quote
ShadowOfGed
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2007-02-26, 22:24

I made an NTFS disk image (.dmg), and copying local files to that ran around 10 or 11 MB/s, which isn't bad at all. Seems to me that excessive demands are being placed on USB2.0 that slow it down, while it's not noticeable on the IDE and SATA interfaces used internally.

I'm on a Mac Pro with SATA drives.

Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter.
  quote
dude
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Join Date: Jan 2007
 
2007-02-26, 22:47

Quote:
Seems to me that excessive demands are being placed on USB2.0 that slow it down
I agree and that i think, to point to and earlier post, may be native OS related. I don't think has anything to do with FUSE or NTFS-3G since it appears to work fine with internal drives. However, I hope I am wrong since fixing drivers is easier than hacking native OS compoents.

Having no background in this matter, the only thing I can compare with is FUSE/NTFS-3G under Linux since it's conception. I posted a Linux/NTFS-3G bench over at the Ubuntu forum and they say "it's about the average transfer rate that USB2 can accommodate".

I guess time will tell. FUSE isn't even at it's .5 milestone yet
  quote
wesley96
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sol 3
 
2007-02-27, 03:25

I'll be going home to test out the new releases. As always, thank you for the binaries.

As for the external USB drives and speed problem, I should note that read/writes with FAT32, HFS+, and Apple's NTFS (this one, just with read capability) is quite fast with external USB drives, especially in comparison to MacFUSE + NTFS-3G combo's performance in my observation. I'll be reporting back with the new version's performance soon.

Last edited by wesley96 : 2007-02-27 at 08:13.
  quote
bigal
 
 
2007-02-27, 08:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by anbs View Post
I am getting the following error when I try to mount a NTFS partition (on my external USB drive):

Code:
Code:
$ ntfs-3g /dev/disk1s3 /Volumes/Ext3 -o ping_diskarb,volname=Ext3 Failed to open /proc/filesystems: No such file or directory Failed to open /proc/filesystems: No such file or directory Failed to create /dev/fuse: Operation not permitted kextload: /Library/Extensions/fusefs.kext loaded successfully mount_fusefs: fusefs@0 on /Volumes/Ext3: Operation not permitted
I used MacFUSE 0.2.1 and the ntfs-3g-1.0 driver and followed the chucker's instructions from here:http://forums.applenova.com/showpost...1&postcount=11
I'd appreciate any help regarding this. Thanks.
I'm getting the same error message with MacFUSE 0.2.2 and ntfs-3g 1.0. however when I perform the mount with sudo I get the same error messages but the drive mounts.
  quote
chucker
 
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2007-02-27, 08:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by anbs View Post
I am getting the following error when I try to mount a NTFS partition (on my external USB drive):

Code:
Code:
$ ntfs-3g /dev/disk1s3 /Volumes/Ext3 -o ping_diskarb,volname=Ext3 Failed to open /proc/filesystems: No such file or directory Failed to open /proc/filesystems: No such file or directory Failed to create /dev/fuse: Operation not permitted kextload: /Library/Extensions/fusefs.kext loaded successfully mount_fusefs: fusefs@0 on /Volumes/Ext3: Operation not permitted
I used MacFUSE 0.2.1 and the ntfs-3g-1.0 driver and followed the chucker's instructions from here:http://forums.applenova.com/showpost...1&postcount=11
I'd appreciate any help regarding this. Thanks.
You have to setuid root your ntfs-3g in order to use it with your normal account.

Code:
sudo chmod u+s `which ntfs-3g`
  quote
wesley96
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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2007-02-27, 09:51

The performance seems to be a lot better now! Interesting. Moving 2.09GB's worth of video files, reading from the USB HDD took 29 minutes while writing to it took 32 minutes - 1.2MB/s for read and 1.1MB/s for write. Far better than 200KB/s write speed I got before. This feels quite bearable. Still about 10 times slower than with HFS+, but bearable.
  quote
AssetBurned
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Join Date: Feb 2007
 
2007-02-27, 11:52

Hi there,

Thanks for the builds! That makes the whole thing much more easier.

The speed is not the only problem. In fact at the moment I don't care about the speed.

Did someone tried to copy things on a NTFS disk with characters like äöüß oder other letters?
it works great as long as you only use a Mac to read and write that files but if you use that disk with windows again... the file names looks very strange. the same problem also occur the other way around.

There are also some other users at Macuser.de (a german mac forum) who has the same problem.

CU AssetBurned
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