[kscherer]

Yeah, right there with ya. George Lucas was smart enough in the 70's to insert some "cool space language" (parsecs and such).

"Hell, no, he ain't be da schnizzle!" simply won't fly. If they don't learn from the horrible, childish dialogue from 1-3, then screw the whole thing.

We don't need any more Jamaican swamp lizards.

[psmith2.0]

Nah, it won't be anything like that. But there is a "sound" to Star Wars, and I just don't want to deviate from it (so when you're watching this in 10-15 years, you don't cringe at the "2015-ness of it all").

Those originals are pretty timeless. Nobody was saying "far out" in ANH or "like, totally rad" in ROTJ, so they don't feel like a 70's/80's movie...it's part of the reason they still feel fresh and not tied to any particular year/decade or cultural trends/mannerisms. Only some of the effects date them (but that's part of the charm/look). But the dialogue and other things aren't screaming "1977!!!" at all.

Again, Kasdan - a proper writer with more-than-enough credentials/successes - being in on this gives me all the comfort and confidence possible. In context, Finn's "hell no" might actually be perfect and genuinely funny (we don't see Solo's response to it in the TV spot). If that's the closest it gets to Earth-bound slang/informality, no biggie.

Seriously, Will Smith pretty much ruined that phrase for me, so I'm just a little extra-sensitive to it, I guess. But I like that Boyega didn't give it that type of delivery, so that's encouraging. Because, in addition to Zack and Cody, I also don't want to see The Wayans Brothers in Space either.

[kscherer]

Yeah. Who knows what's down that hall? Remember in Ep. 4 when Han Solo ran down the hall chasing a couple Storm Troopers, rounded the corner and came running back from a whole squad?

Well, Han is older now, and maybe a little more careful about chasing down the hall after who knows what. So, he peeks, and there's like, a whole squad, but he's still ready to duke it out! Finn, maybe not quite as ready is like, "Hell no." Han takes off and it's all guns and lasers and we're reminded of that time he chased a bunch down the hall all by himself screaming like a banshee.

I can dig that.

[psmith2.0]

It hit me, watching that clip of Finn and the stormtrooper...do you think other stormtroopers (like the one Finn was scrapping with) recognize Finn? Surely some of them would if they were in the same unit (I imagine they see each other without their helmets from time to time?). And, if so, they'd see him as a traitor/deserter...their anger toward their former comrade would be pretty strong. Some may even have a heavy personal grudge against him ("you abandoned your brothers!", etc.).*

That's an interesting element that hasn't been explored or played out in the movies yet.

Also, in that clip of Han and Finn, Chewie is in the background, further down that hallway (you can see him on the right side of the screen, 20 or so feet away, as Han is talking).


*This is all hinging on the assumption that Finn was a stormtrooper who deserted/defected, which all the trailers and tidbits from Abrams and others seems to point to. If he was a spy or whatever (and never a legit, full-tilt New Order trooper) then never mind.

[turtle]

Wouldn't all storm troopers be Jango Fett? I though he was the source of all those guys in white. Maybe I missed something along the way.

[psmith2.0]

Capella can cover this way better than I ever could, but I think by the time of the original trilogy (beginning 19 years after the events of Revenge of the Sith, troopers were made up of recruits and other non-clone sources.

And this new movie is set 30 years after the events of Return of the Jedi, even that much further from the clone-only practice.

[turtle]

I will take your word for it. I never looked that far into it but it would make sense. I just assumed the non-clones would be the ones in leadership and the clones would be the grunts. All just assumptions on my part though.

[Capella]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Capella can cover this way better than I ever could, but I think by the time of the original trilogy (beginning 19 years after the events of Revenge of the Sith, troopers were made up of recruits and other non-clone sources. And this new movie is set 30 years after the events of Return of the Jedi, even that much further from the clone-only practice.

Thanks for the confidence! I have been summoned to loredump, so I am. In a nutshell, pscates' last line is right.

Originally Posted by turtle Wouldn't all storm troopers be Jango Fett? I though he was the source of all those guys in white. Maybe I missed something along the way.

The longer answer is that a few factors likely went into the changeover. From pure screen canon sources, we know that it's all clone troops in 21 BBY, and by 0 BBY it's a mix. Since there's not a lot of screen canon covering this period, I'll do a recap of lower-level canon (books, games, etc) source that explains it.

-The original Kaminoan templates had age acceleration so that the clones could grow to adult size and be trained in fighting before they were 5. Unfortunately, this accelerated aging was not shut off at physical maturity, which meant that the clones correspondingly had a limited lifespan. Having your soldiers age out in under 10 years is shitty.
-According to Wookiepedia, in 12 BBY there was an uprising on Kamino, where the clonemasters took some of their combat clones and went rogue (Battlefront II video game).
-Because of this, Palpatine decided to diversify his source base. He continued to use Fett material, but he began supplementing the army ranks with clones from other source templates.
-By the time of ANH, we see that the stormtrooper ranks have been accepting non-clone humans into the ranks of the stormtrooper corps. These recruits did not have the advantages of uniformity and flash training of the clones, but they also didn't have the maturation drawbacks. Becoming a stormtrooper was seen as attainable and a desirable path for Imperial citzens. If it was only clones, then none of Luke's friends could aspire to join.

Now consider that the Fett-types had been becoming rarer for twenty years, then consider we're thirty years past that. The use of clones may have fallen entirely out of favor due to negative connotations. I'll be interested to see the composition of First Order troopers in the movie!

As for Fetts, will we see any on-screen? Good question! Any Fett-type clone troopers from the OT will be dead by now from the accelerated maturation. We don't know if any more are produced. There are two major reasons why they might not be:

-The original Fett sample is almost 60 years old. What there is left may be unusable. It's likely impossible to use a clone's DNA to make another clone, as replication errors might exist, and then it would be guaranteed to have the accelerated maturation. Boba is a straight clone and could be a source, but assuming he's dead, that's not gonna work.
-Given the Kaminoan rebellion, that technology and the people know how to use it may have been lost. We don't know if Fett-types were ever produced using alternative cloning methods such as Spaarti cylinders.

I'll be interested to see if we see any Fett-type troopers.

[turtle]

Wow, thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. I do appreciate it as I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering about it.

[psmith2.0]

See? Told ya!

[psmith2.0]

A standalone, single clip has been released (Rey, Finn and BB-8 trying to make it to a ship to escape the attacking TIE fighters). Not a trailer, but an actual sequence from the movie with a smidgen of dialog.

- Finn sounds a bit spazzy and out of his league. Can't figure out how he made stormtrooper to begin with if he's this freaked-out and high-strung during moments of confrontation/stress! It's like watching Don Knotts in one of those old Disney movies.

- Even when she's running and frazzled, Daisy Ridley is still cute as a bug...I like her little hand gesture with "we've got one!" (her, obviously). She probably can't figure this Finn guy out either..."I'm exhibiting more balls and grit than this supposed stormtrooper...".

But the most important part (nothing truly earth-shattering, but I'm putting it in spoilers just as a courtesy for those who want to be surprised...although if you've seen any of the trailers, you shouldn't be):

I've seen this on a few sites the past 18 hours or so, and I've skimmed through the attached comments at all these place, etc. How is it that nobody has noticed - or commented on - the Millennium Falcon in the background?!? It's directly behind Rey as she runs in front of the panning camera in the opening 1-2 seconds. It isn't super clear, but you can make out the two "clam" halves (upper and lower), the round area above the entrance ramp and the little cockpit area. My guess is that it's "plan B" after the "quad-jumper"(?) is destroyed. They probably look over to their right, see the Falcon and make a run for it. That leads to the chase and aerobatics we've seen in the various trailers and TV spots (Rey is flying, Finn is at the guns and BB-8 is rolling all around).

[kscherer]

Hmmm … the quad jumper is blown to bits. Whatever will we do? Oh, hey, let's take that piece of junk over there!

[psmith2.0]

Pretty much. I'm trying to find a larger, better version of that clip that I can step through and pause at will (the YouTube one is tough to do that).

Rough, but I think it's there.

Yeah, oddly enough it's more noticeable in the actual clip. Your eye seems to fill-in/compensate for the blur and, although very brief, it's easier to see in the moving clip.

[kieran]

I figured the Falcon would fall into this clip the first time I saw it, so I watched it again. If you're looking for it, or something similar, it's obvious.

It's clear at this point that Rey pilots the Falcon. I guess this is where she grabs it from. I just wonder why it was there in the first place.

[psmith2.0]

Exactly.

1) Why is the Falcon there?

But also:

2) How is this young desert-dweller/scavenger a pilot?

There's precedent, I know (someone used to bulls eye some rodents in his T-16 "back home", and was acknowledged as having become "quite a good pilot", well before he ever left his home planet and sat in an X-wing ). We've only seen her on that landspeeder-y/fridge-looking thing, but you gotta figure if she's a tinkerer/builder/scavenger type and has been around these things throughout her young life, she's probably flown a few things in her time. I imagine getting around in such an environment, certain vehicles would be like cars here on Earth...just a rite of passage and something most in that world learn and pick up (except for Finn, it sounds like ). And, as I theorized upthread, maybe the overall controls/functions across various ships (or classes of ship) are kinda the same? In other words, just as here on earth if you can drive a Ford Focus or Camry, with a bit of adjustment for size, control layout, etc. you can manage a panel truck or moving van...it's all the same gas, brake, wheel, gears, gauges, etc.). Assuming she's never piloted the Falcon, if she's flown enough ships on "Jakku", she may have her head around the basics and, in theory, can fly most other things with varying levels of proficiency? She may not quite be Han Solo-good, but she can probably start it up, get it off the ground and haul ass around the neighborhood.

Plus, depending on whose blood is flowing through her veins, she may be tapping into some extra help/ability she may not fully understand yet? (cue majestic "Binary Sunset" strings).

[kscherer]

You see, I don't buy the "flown one thing, you've flown them all" argument. Larger cars stay on the ground, but if you spend all your time in a Focus, an 18-wheeler isn't the same thing. Along the same line, a small, 4-seater Cessna 182 is not the same thing as Lear Jet, nor a 747. They require vastly different certifications because they are vastly different aircraft. The amount of airplane trailing behind the landing gear of a Lear might be 20 feet or so, while the amount of airplane trailing behind the landing gear of a 747 is something like a hundred feet. That distance means the two aircraft will touch down on a runway in such greatly different ways that a leer jet pilot cannot simply climb into a 747 and "fly it" (although I would much rather have the leer pilot in an emergency than Mr. or Mrs. Random Citizen ).

I have to believe that "quad-hopper" and "hover-bike" are dramatically different than "Millennium Falcon".

Even Han Solo reminded Luke Skywalker that flying the falcon wasn't like dusting crops (or something like that) and Luke never pretended to take the controls of the Falcon (although he insisted he could fly them out there because he wasn't "such a bad pilot"). Either way, only Chewie, Lando and Han ever flew the Falcon. No one else ever claimed to be able to jump in and take over.

I guess what I'm saying is that "I've flown a stump jumper" isn't enough backstory to convince me that Rey can just climb in and fly an unfamiliar machine in the way the trailers depict. Something closer in size and flight characteristic (like, say, an X-wing?) and it's at least believable (in an imaginary way). But "I'm a pilot" does not qualify one to take the controls of whatever they decide.

Flying that Cessna 182, for example, does not make one a good helicopter pilot. And riding a motorcycle does not qualify one to fly a V-22 Tilt-rotor (the real-world equivalent of the hover bike vs. Falcon comparison).

Rey needs to have some background that at least convinces me she is qualified to even consider getting behind the controls of the Falcon. Running through the desert claiming to be a pilot is acceptable if she can get the thing off the ground, every bit as much as Luke's claim to be shooting rodents from a T-16 gives us enough backstory to believe he could climb into an X-wing and sort of know what to do (although that's also like saying "I've flown an ultralight, now put me into that F-15 and let me go for a spin).

Still, the idea that "the controls are the same" doesn't fly with aircraft (I think that pun is unintended ). The stick goes uppy-downy-lefty-righty, but aircraft behave very differently from model to another, and even from one serial number to another. It takes pilots years of continual training/certification to master different types of aircraft. They don't just climb in and "they all work the same".

[psmith2.0]

I don't think it's a perfect 1:1 thing. I said there would be adjustments. But I've driven an MG Midget(?) and a 30-foot RV, and everything in between (SUVs, vans, forklifts, go-karts, pickups, Jeeps, 4-door sedans, my stepdad's '29 Ford two-seater hot rod, etc). They were all the same in that that they had shared controls/approach.

I certainly had to spend time on the larger, bulky ones before I felt comfortable. Definitely an adjustment period. I'm not talking about aircraft because I don't know anything about that. But throw me the keys to anything with four wheels, a gas and brake pedal and steering wheel and I'll get it from one side of town to the other. Might not be pretty (and I might scrape a signpost or two while turning).

That's all I'm getting at.

Han said flying through hyperspace wasn't like dusting crops. Which I would believe. You have to do all those calculations, etc. vs. just free-form flying (or womp rat-shooting). But I'll bet you if Han and Chewie had keeled over from heart attacks, Luke could've probably taken over and at least got the thing on the ground.

I'm just stating that Rey, who is blatantly shown flying the Falcon in these recent TV spots, learned it somehow. Either she inherited the thing (or won it in an auction), and tools around in it on weekends, OR in a moment of desperation turns to it for an escape vessel. It obviously wasn't her first choice, and in that recent TV spot you see her in the cockpit saying "I can do this" to herself, pumping herself up.

That, to me, implies that it's her first time at the controls, BUT she must feel confident enough that she realizes "these controls seem familiar...we might have a chance. I can do this...".

I'd prefer to drive my familiar two-door Saturn coupe from here to the other end of town. But if all I had available was a dump truck, I know I could get it started, turn the wheel, work the gas and brake, etc. and make the trip.



And you can't compare real-life earth aircraft with stuff from a sci-if/fantasy movie. You're right...in real life, someone probably couldn't fly an ultralight for 10 years then step right into a fighter plane or passenger jet cockpit and nail it. But in this universe, something made it to where Luke could go from an in-atmosphere hobby craft to an ace starfighter pilot in two hours: movie logic/suspension of disbelief.

Something has to account for her flying know-how. And if you take her "I can do this" as a clue that this is her first time in the Falcon pilot chair, the only other explanation is that she's monkeyed around with enough other vehicles to have a basic grip on what's what.

I don't think every ship in the galaxy is exactly alike (too many worlds, races, cultures, etc.) but maybe certain kinds/classes of ships (the kinds a scavenger may come across from a 30-year-old-war?) share similar enough controls that she felt she could take it on?

We'll find out soon. Less than one month!!!

[kscherer]

I get where you're coming from. This stuff is all Sci-Fi fantasy world and I can dig it.

[psmith2.0]

Confession: every 2-3 days, I pull the ticket out of my wallet and look at it.

[kieran]

I like how you still put quotes around "Jakku."

I'm not convinced it's a new planet either.

[psmith2.0]

Yeah, just one of those hunches. I think it's a typical J.J. Abrams misdirect/bullcrap tactic (from the guy who spent months saying Benedict Cabbagepatch wasn't Khan, when the entire world knew otherwise). So, yeah...I'm not buying this "Jakku" business one bit.

It's obviously called that, in-story (games and other marketing material are already out), but I just think that after the Empire fell and things got rebuilt or re-established, things get re-written/re-named. That happens here on Earth, in our history. Countries change names and leadership, etc. For whatever reason, I just think Tatooine underwent a name-change in the ~30 years since the Battle of Endor. We may or may not get an explanation of that in the movie (it could simply be one throwaway sentence in the opening crawl, even).

I know desert is desert and you've seen one, you've seen them all. But even the hardware on it (those moisture vaporators in that recent TV spot) just makes me think it is. The planet was a Skywalker stronghold/breeding ground (for lack of a better word), so maybe in some effort to erase that part of its past (for political or Force-related reasons?) it got renamed so, over time, people will just no longer know it by its old name (and what it represented)?

Rey seems to be the only main cast member living there, and she's under 30...so that's probably all she's ever known it by? And maybe she (along with the rest of us) learn what it once was called, etc.?

And I swear I've seen online footage or screenshots from that Battlefront game and there are two suns in the sky. Maybe lots of desert planets have two suns (that's why they're deserts), but we'll see. I just smell a (womp) rat here...I sense a great disturbance in the misdirection.

EDIT: Bear in mind that I don't read the novels, comics or play the video games, so if this new canon has established that "Jakku" is indeed legit (and not a renamed Tatooine), I'm unaware of it (but it seems like I would've heard about it via Yahoo or just general Internet nerd-prowling). So it might be getting saved for the movie, I don't know. Or it might be a desert planet called Jakku. If so, I'll cop to being wrong (and I'll quit using quotes around it.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Confession: every 2-3 days, I pull the ticket out of my wallet and look at it.

My god, you're like a high schooler with a condom.

Stop that! It's how it wears out before you need it!

[psmith2.0]

Unlike a condom, this will actually get used.

I was smart buying it a month ago. They're going fast.

EDIT: I despise auto-correct.

[kscherer]

"conform" "tgeyre"

Step away from the iPhone!

Autocorrect no work for you.

[psmith2.0]

Happy Thanksgiving, boys and girls!

It's now exactly three weeks until I see this. I'm afraid leaks and spoilers will start to seep out in the coming weeks (in Yahoo headlines, IMDb thread titles, at various movie/pop culture sites/blogs I read, etc.). So - with the exception of email and maybe a skootch of non-SW-related YouTubing (gotta have my woodworking and surf guitar fix) - I'm giving the Internet a rest these next 21 days.

Gonna "go dark" for this final run-up...I don't want to see, hear, read or learn anything else about this movie (even here, accidentally) starting today.

See you guys in three weeks!

[709]

Snape Kills Dumbledore!





(Happy Thanksgiving to you as well!)

[kscherer]

Darth Vader did it.

Now go eat some bird, and look forward to your awesome review (awesome in scope, and hopefully awesome because AWESOME!!)

[kieran]

Darth Jar Jar video

I really wish this was true.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by kieran Darth Jar Jar video I really wish this was true.

It is true, however Lucas chickened out and now it's too late to do anything about it.

The Clone Wars animated series has established that Jar Jar is good and not a Sith. Disney's still holding to the Clone Wars as canon, right?

[kscherer]

The more I read or watch, the more it makes sense.

Don't know if I think it's true or not, but it makes sense.

This would have been the most shocking (and unbelievable) reveal ever to hit the Star Wars universe, which is why me thinks Lucas pulled it (if it's true).

At least it gives Jar Jar some hope. Still doesn't fix whiny-pants, though.