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Maciej
M AH - ch ain saw
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2010-12-31, 23:54

With more and more of us getting SSDs I thought I might start a catch all SSD thread where we could discuss upcoming products, our implementations of SSDs and the like. I'm expecting posts to few and far between but I thought I'd give it a shot anyway.

I have a question to start us off, although I guess it's really more of a chipset/SATA question:

Anyone know if SATA II vs SATA III is just a firmware difference or actual difference in chipset/hardware? Basically what I'm wondering is if with a firmware update you could open up the 3 Gigabit limit up to 6 Gigabit. I'm not very well versed in this stuff but I'm guessing "no."

Since many SSDs are approaching saturation of SATA II for many of us with MBPs getting the "latest and greatest" won't be as big of an issue since the current setting maxes out at 3 Gigabit.

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Eugene
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2011-01-01, 00:40

SATA II has been around a long time already, so it's doubtful that anybody would have used a "draft" SATA 3.0 chipset in retail products.
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PB PM
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2011-01-01, 05:39

SATA III basically uses the same physical connector, and is backwards compatible, but you cannot use software to make a SATA II port a SATA III port. It works along the same lines of USB3 and how it is compatible with USB1 and USB2.
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Maciej
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2011-02-25, 19:22

Macrumors reports that Apple has added TRIM support in the latest Lion build. This is very exciting news, potentially, if Apple carries on the support to the Gold Master version that ships to consumers.

TRIM support enables better file book keeping on the OS side of the SSD/OS equation - maintaining faster read/write times for longer.

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Maciej
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2011-05-01, 12:51

Well, I haven't updated this thread in a while - I guess interest wasn't too great so I didn't feel the need to write anything here.

The latest generation of SSDs is coming out about now; offerings like the Vertex 3, OWC 6G are the king of the hill when it comes to speed, but Intel is still around with their impressive 510 (based on a Marvel controller ) and more mainstream 320 series - both probably good choices if you're looking for well validated reliability (Intel's quality control best all, AFAIK).

I came in to update this thread with regards to TRIM on OS X. As some of the latest Apple notebooks are shipping with TRIM enabled for Apple SSDs, many of us have suspected that Apple will move forward with enabling TRIM for all SSDs. This has not been the case, however, today I stumbled upon a set of instructions for enabling TRIM on any SSD, published by Le Macbidouille, here. They even link to an app that will do the activation for you, but as with all tweaks they suggest caution and a recent backup before trying this. I've installed it, everything seems fine and TRIM is enabled. I will report back with any problems, but I don't find that likely. Enjoy, at your own risk.

EDIT: Seems to be causing reproducible problems for some Vertex users...

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Last edited by Maciej : 2011-05-01 at 17:49.
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chucker
 
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2011-05-01, 13:02

Has anyone proven that this does in fact enable TRIM, and not just patch the OS to report TRIM as enabled?
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Maciej
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2011-05-01, 13:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Has anyone proven that this does in fact enable TRIM, and not just patch the OS to report TRIM as enabled?
Oooh, an interesting assertion. Not that I've heard yet... or even seen anyone ask this question really. I'll ask about that on the OCZ forums, where I found this link originally.

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Maciej
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Join Date: May 2004
 
2011-05-01, 17:48

So I'm hearing a bit of grumbling that this hack actually may cause some issues with beach-balling and unresponsiveness. I haven't experienced anything yet but I probably wouldn't recommend doing it any longer.

One other thing I wanted to comment on is the hiccups some SATA3 users are experiencing with 2011 17" MBPs. The gist of the problem (as reported by OWC) is that the placement of the battery indicator cable is causing interference with the SATA cable in the 17" (there is some grumbling about this being an issue with all 2011 MBPs but I haven't seen the proof and the explanation provided by OWC doesn't seem to jive with 13" & 15" setup). Just another thing to be aware of if you've got one of these spiffy new notebooks and are thinking of upgrading to a 6Gbps capable drive. I haven't experienced this issue yet, but also don't have a SATA3 drive in that MBP.

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MBHockey
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2011-05-08, 13:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Has anyone proven that this does in fact enable TRIM, and not just patch the OS to report TRIM as enabled?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maciej View Post
Oooh, an interesting assertion. Not that I've heard yet... or even seen anyone ask this question really. I'll ask about that on the OCZ forums, where I found this link originally.
You guys might find this interesting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by www.xlr8yourmac.com/archives/mar11/032511.html
I asked about any proof that trim is really working in OS X, not just the OS reporting it as supported. (Many SSDs have GC support in firmware, which has been a plus for OS X users w/o Trim support.)
Here's his reply regarding proof of trim working.

Ok, there are three things:

1) Apple can do it (just show "yes") through detecting media type of Disk in System Profiler (which is more simple) instead of using for this AHCI driver. And another thing - this is all SSDs, just with different names, which all supports unified commands.

2) IOAHCIBlockStorage.kext is not something simple. This driver (Input Output Advanced Host Controller Interface Block Storage) manages all IO for SATA Storage Devices, ie. NCQ, R/W operations, TRIM, etc.. How OS checks that TRIM is supported and works in drive? As you can see in my last message - we tested a group of disks, the ones which support TRIM natively and those which produced early that lacked TRIM support. Those disk that supported it, OS recognized. Those which lacked it OS shows "TRIM Support: No" without exception. To check - IOAHCI after detecting that this is not "rotational" disk (reports no spinning speed), it sends the TRIM commands "BuildATATrimCommand" (found inside IOAHCIBlockStoorage) to the SSD. If SSD executes this, on specific address of clusters after trimming will be zeroes like if we had a secure format with zeroes, then IOAHCI reports that command executed, and SSD supports TRIMming. If the command was ignored and not executed, OS reports that this SSD doesn't support TRIM. This command is not a process which can be monitored by Activity Monitor. It is just a command to SSD's controller which will do this work fully automatically without OS intrusion. This is the algorithm to understand "how os checks that TRIM is supported and executed".

3) Another proof. First what we noted is reverting performance via synthetic test back to original. Another - is using "hdparm" method. Booted in linux, mount SSD with HFS, creates small file in specific place and saves the info about address of sectors that contains that file. In linux TRIM is turned off for HFS. Boot to OS X and delete this file. Back to linux - check the address - and we see only zeros. TRIM is working.
(In theory any SSD that supports TRIM should work but he later wrote with results of more testing)
Some more information about activated TRIM tests with other SSDs. These models tested and TRIM verified working:

Kingston V+ SSDNow Series
Intel X25-S/M 2nd Gen Series
Western Digital Silicon Edge Blue Series
OCZ Agility 2 Series
OCZ Vertex Series
-Viktor D."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maciej View Post
So I'm hearing a bit of grumbling that this hack actually may cause some issues with beach-balling and unresponsiveness. I haven't experienced anything yet but I probably wouldn't recommend doing it any longer.
I just used the patcher this morning (2010 MBP i7 with a G2 intel SSD). I first backed up the original kext, patched it, then erased the free space on the SSD via Disk Utility, and then ran a few Terminal commands (that I'm not sure what they do even!) as per the developer's instructions

Now, TRIM shows up as being supported and my boot times are quite a bit faster (the spinning wheel doesn't even get a chance to show up): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QspDv7RqPE4

Is the faster boot related to those terminal commands? Is the effect only transient?

I'll keep my eye out for any ill effects because stability is my number one concern. I've never had even a hiccup with this drive in over a year and a half and I want to keep it that way. I won't mind reverting back.
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chucker
 
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2011-05-08, 13:46

Interesting, thanks. That leads to the next question: why hasn't Apple activated this by default yet? Is it to push their own SSDs, or are there quality concerns?
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MBHockey
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2011-05-08, 14:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Interesting, thanks. That leads to the next question: why hasn't Apple activated this by default yet? Is it to push their own SSDs, or are there quality concerns?
My assumption was quality concerns.

Aside: I pointed my friend to this utility who also has a 2010 MBP with a G2 intel ssd (almost identical setup as me) and he did everything I did but now has dramatically longer boot times. The developer said to run a set of terminal commands after erasing the free space with disk utility, otherwise he said, you would experience long boot times. But my friend did all of this and is still getting the long boot times. Any idea what these do/what might be going wrong?

Code:
sudo chown root:admin / sudo kextcache -system-prelinked-kernel sudo kextcache -system-caches
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chucker
 
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2011-05-08, 15:08

The first one sets ownership of the root directory to user root, group admin. Normally, that shouldn't really do anything, as that's the default setting. It certainly doesn't have a performance effect. (Perhaps it's intended as a preemptive repair measure? I don't see any relation to the commands that follow.)

The other two commands force portions of the kernel cache to be rebuilt. Normally, the kernel cache rebuilds automatically as needed, but in certain cases, this can indeed improve boot times. The first one builds a new prelinked kernel based on the kernel from your current startup volume plus all kernel extensions that are currently loaded. The second one speeds up loading kernel extensions.

From the horse's mouth:

Code:
The second type of cache is the prelinked kernel, which contains the ker- nel code, kext executables already linked for their run-time locations, and other essential kext files for an arbitrary set of kexts.
Code:
The remaining caches contain specific information from the info dictio- naries of system kexts, and are used to optimize disk I/O when working with kexts.
Code:
-system-prelinked-kernel This option is a convenience to update the prelinked kernel used for startup on the root volume, with all kexts in the system extensions folder that have been loaded to date. This option implies -all-loaded. -system-caches Rebuild the info caches for system kexts on the root volume.
So yes, those two latter commands can indeed help with boot times.
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MBHockey
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2011-05-08, 16:29

Thanks Chucker. It's amazing how much more sense it made when you wrote it out than from running man

Appreciate it!
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Maciej
M AH - ch ain saw
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2011-05-12, 12:59

Well yesterday I ordered a Vertex 3 - can't wait for it to ship!

I've enabled the TRIM utility and ran all the optimizations for my older Vertex 2 - but I'm not seeing much difference, in boot time or otherwise. I think part of the reason may be because the Vertex drives have good garbage collection as it stands and don't even really need TRIM. No glitches or bugs either though...

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nikstar101
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2011-05-12, 15:48

Hey let us know what you think of the Vertex 3. I am really interested in getting one, but i am just waiting for MacOS to get TRIM support.

Admittedly my Mac Pro does have a SATA 3 port but i thought if i get the 6gbps version i can always use it in the future.
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Maciej
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Join Date: May 2004
 
2011-05-12, 16:35

Yeah, only reason I got the Vertex 3 is cause this new MBP has 6Gbit/s SATA. I got the MAX IOPS one too (I know I'm a spec-whore), so it won't ship at the earliest for another 2 weeks - according to Amazon. We'll see how speedy it is then, I'll just have to find a nice benchmarking utility for this type of thing...

I'm surprised I haven't benchmarked my Vertex 2 before. I probably should have; to compare speeds after a couple months of use. Not for bragging rights but just to see what kind of performance deterioration occurs with Snow Leopard. This new drive is going to be a 240GB one, with roughly 140GB of data for it, probably half of that is media - which isn't very compressible so not the Vertexs' strong suit.

So anyway, do any of you guys have recommendations for benchmark suites?

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Gargoyle
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2011-05-13, 07:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maciej View Post
which isn't very compressible so not the Vertexs' strong suit.
Does the vertex 3 compress stuff on the fly?
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Maciej
M AH - ch ain saw
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2011-05-13, 09:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gargoyle View Post
Does the vertex 3 compress stuff on the fly?
Yeah, I don't know too much about it but I know that the controller likes to compress data as much as possible. I dug up this article from Tom's Hardware about it, I haven't read it yet but it might be interesting. I think AnandTech has mentioned it before but I don't think he's dedicated an article to the issue itself - you may be able to dig up some more data on it from within one of his earlier SandForce-basd drive reviews.

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MBHockey
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2011-05-20, 08:59

Just wanted to pop in an say I'm experiencing no ill effects since enabling trim in 10.6.7 for my intel SSD.
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Maciej
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2011-05-20, 11:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBHockey View Post
Just wanted to pop in an say I'm experiencing no ill effects since enabling trim in 10.6.7 for my intel SSD.
Neither am I. In fact, I've completely forgot about enabling it multiple times.

I should say I also haven't noticed any increases in speed, that may be due to my drive being a Vertex 2.

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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2011-05-20, 11:48

Out of curiosity - does having SSD help with swap file / Virtual Memory performance and if so, any necessary setup to make this happen? (maybe just installing an OS on the SSD is enough in itself, though?)
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Maciej
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2011-05-26, 16:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maciej View Post
Yeah, only reason I got the Vertex 3 is cause this new MBP has 6Gbit/s SATA. I got the MAX IOPS one too (I know I'm a spec-whore), so it won't ship at the earliest for another 2 weeks - according to Amazon. We'll see how speedy it is then, I'll just have to find a nice benchmarking utility for this type of thing...
Well my drive still hasn't shipped. It has been a little over two weeks since I placed my order on Amazon, but I'm hearing rumblings on the internet that the next shipment of MAX IOPS drives should be arriving in early June so I've got my fingers crossed that I'm high enough up the queue to get one soon. I've also recently read that these drives us 34nm NAND flash, which is an added benefit from the durability stand point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post
Out of curiosity - does having SSD help with swap file / Virtual Memory performance and if so, any necessary setup to make this happen? (maybe just installing an OS on the SSD is enough in itself, though?)
Unfortunately I'm not technical enough to answer this question. If I understand how Virtual Memory works (writes some portion of the ram to your hard drive) then using an SSD as your main drive should definitely improve the speed with which the OS can swap files from the RAM to drive and vice versa. However, I'm not entirely sure how this would work in a multiple drive system (I can only assume that the Virtual Memory destination drive is the drive the OS is installed on). Just my $0.02, from a layman's perspective.

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Banana
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2011-05-26, 16:13

That's what I expect as well - was wanting to get a confirmation that it would be the case.
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nikstar101
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2011-06-10, 18:51

Maciej any news on your Vertex 3 yet??

I have been looking into these SSDs and the Intel 510 looks quite promising. I think it is a bit more expensive than the Vertex though.

I am hoping that it will speed the boot time and loading time of applications from my 2006 Seagate drive!!
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Maciej
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2011-06-10, 19:07

The MAX IOPS drive hasn't shipped yet, last I read the end of June is best estimate at the moment. Regular Vertex 3 should be plenty good though, if you're needing quick availability.

Have you read AnandTech's reviews? His recent SSD roundup has a decent chart comparing $/GB for some of the major players.

Are you on a SATA 3 (6Gb/s) capable computer?
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nikstar101
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2011-06-11, 05:39

Nah i have a 2009 Mac Pro so it is only SATA 2 not the super speedy 6Gb/s. But i wanted to get a SATA 3 drive in case sometime in the future i upgrade the Mac I can take it with me.

I am slightly worried, after reading all the forums, that SSDs and Mac don't seem to want to work together (from any brand), but i really want to give it a go anyway. The thing i liked about the Intel drive is that the firmware can be updated with a Mac whereas the Vertex (OCZ) drives don't have a firmware updater or you have to jump through a number of hoops.
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Maciej
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2011-06-11, 12:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikstar101 View Post
The thing i liked about the Intel drive is that the firmware can be updated with a Mac whereas the Vertex (OCZ) drives don't have a firmware updater or you have to jump through a number of hoops.
Yeah, it's a bit of a pain in the ass, my biggest problem with the OCZ drives. You say Intel has a native Mac updater? I did not know that... Have you considered the Crucial drives, they're pretty fast - even the C300.

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Dave
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2011-06-11, 13:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maciej View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post
Out of curiosity - does having SSD help with swap file / Virtual Memory performance and if so, any necessary setup to make this happen? (maybe just installing an OS on the SSD is enough in itself, though?)
Unfortunately I'm not technical enough to answer this question. If I understand how Virtual Memory works (writes some portion of the ram to your hard drive) then using an SSD as your main drive should definitely improve the speed with which the OS can swap files from the RAM to drive and vice versa. However, I'm not entirely sure how this would work in a multiple drive system (I can only assume that the Virtual Memory destination drive is the drive the OS is installed on). Just my $0.02, from a layman's perspective.
By default, Virtual Memory uses the boot drive. It should be possible to change this, but I haven't tried this (or even read it all) so I can't personally vouch for their method. And you are correct, Maciej -- using an SSD for your swap files will speed up the VM system, and therefore the entire computer if you're making use of Virtual Memory. At the moment, my machine has over 1GB of free, unallocated RAM. I'm sure there are still swap files on my drive just to prep the system in case it suddenly needs them, but I doubt moving the swap files to an SSD would help much in my case. If I was booting off an SSD though, that would make a huge difference. I recently put one of those hybrid Seagate Momentus XT drives in my Macbook Pro (the very first ones with an intel CPU - Core Duo), and even with only a kind of half-SSD in there, it's faster than my Mac Pro at some things now.

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
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chucker
 
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2011-06-11, 14:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
By default, Virtual Memory uses the boot drive. It should be possible to change this, but I haven't tried this (or even read it all) so I can't personally vouch for their method.
I used to do this, but that was pre-launchd, so the method was different in the details (though it also boiled down to running dynamic_pager with a different argument). Worked fine.
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Dave
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2011-06-11, 17:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I used to do this, but that was pre-launchd, so the method was different in the details (though it also boiled down to running dynamic_pager with a different argument). Worked fine.
Was your computer any faster?
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