AppleNova Forums

autodata · 2004-05-20, 01:14

Edit: FFL sums it up much better

DMBand0026 · 2004-05-20, 01:26

Haha.

Please do the calculations, cause a few members seem to be confused as well.
Am I the only one who thinks this is getting really old?

And learn those quote tags too, for my, and everyone else's sanity.

_Ω_ · 2004-05-20, 01:32

At the end of the day I think the community will benefit. Things were stagnating at .com and change was never happening.

From this "exploit" a freshness or vibrancy has been created, not only here, but also at .com (or more interaction by the powers that be)

Whether you form allegiances with one or the other, or both, overall in the long run the community will benefit.

My 2c's.

FFL · 2004-05-20, 04:16

This is my attempt at explaining events as I understand them, as someone who's been on these boards since 1997. From Cats & Watermelons, to Kormac's initial run, to 68K's multiple-personality trolling at a PhD level, to The Great Blackout, and its aftermath, and the resurrection of the Fourms in late 2001... and so much more. Some of this comes from what I've simply observed as a semi-frequent poster and very frequent browser. Some of this comes from finding the Clinic forum early in its inception, and the infamous ad-free poll thread as it developed. Some of this comes from logging in to AI.com Saturday noonish, just as this all started going down, and being on the Appleinsideher iChat for most of the day.

In 2001 (I think?) there was a "blackout" where AI simply disappeared, and was gone for many months. Hundreds of AI refugees wandered the Internet aimlessly, some posting at MacNN, some posting at OrangeInsider, some at BAD Flamingo. No one was very happy.

-Brad, LoCash (and others?) did a lot of work to get the AI forums up and running, and for quite a while it was the ONLY content at AI.com.

-The Kasper-front-page-rumors feature is a relatively recent development for those of us who've been around for years. When Kasper took over doing the front page, he took it upon himself to take over authority for everything including the forums (while he never spent a second in running, maintaining, moderating, or contributing to them). He was often neither shy nor very nice about exerting his authority over the residing board admins.

-One big flare-up of this... for years while there was no front page content, the buttons on the site banner linked to the forums. Kasper changed it to lead to the front page WITHOUT even telling any of the admins (never mind actually asking them why it was set up the way it was, or any other discussion). Brad changed it back to the way it was before and Kasper changed it again. It went back and forth a couple of times at least.

You can go to any page on the AI.com forums right now (anyone want to start a pool on how long it takes these to be "Kaspered" ? out of existence now that I've mentioned them here?) and View Code. You'll find these lines, and hopefully enjoy the comments....

Quote:

I know for a fact this has been there for months. Maybe one of the admins can enlighten us with a more detailed timeline?

In case you need a scorecard, I attribute this comment to Brad:

and this one to Kasper:

of course, I could be reading it wrong and they could all be comment lines added by Kasper. Either way, the last comment, and the fact that it has been in the code of EVERY forum page for MONTHS, speaks volumes to me. This is not a person willing (or even able?) to have a discussion. This is a guy on a power and ego trip. Sure, you can say he owned the place and could run it as he damn well pleased. But, as a 40 year old past, present, and (hopefully) future owner or part owner of businesses, I can tell you... that is no fucking way to run your ship.

The other thing that sticks out for me, is that I've seen Brad rebuild, lead, and contribute to this community for years. Meanwhile, in terms of the community, and indeed everything other than the semi-weekly rumor content, Kasper was.. well.. a ghost! And not a very friendly one at that...

Next, the ADS. I've kind of snickered for years at people who whined and bitched about ad banners and such. Shit, just ignore them, is that so hard? Plus, my business experience includes co-founding a dot-com (that's still around!!), so I understand the need for and purpose of ads. Then, they began to get more visually obnoxious, with graphics flashing at strobe light speeds. I had more sympathy for those bitching about ads, but didn't really feel motivated to bitch, or download some ad-blocker, or anything like that.

Then I saw a thread on AI called Tina Must Die http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...highlight=tina
I read what people were saying, and that the ad involved audio, and that some people were... umm... fairly unhappy about Tina (maybe the thread title was a hint?). Still, it didn't hit home with me till a couple days later when I was browsing the forums and suddenly.. unexpectedly... my computer's speakers start blaring out "HI! My name is Tina!". I mean, good and loud, and even though I'd been following the Tina thread and knew exactly what she would say, it shocked and pissed the hell out of me. I maintain my Macs meticulously and know them pretty well.. in fact, I get paid reasonably well to fix and maintain other people's Macs, so I generally feel pretty "in control" of my system. When sound started belting out, loud and completely unexpected, I felt.. well... violated. Fortunately, it was a female and not a male voice... I remember reading somewhere, later, that some of the ads even linked to trojans and/or spyware that could infect any PC users visiting the forums. The ads were the worst ones available on the Internet.

Bottom line, I downloaded PithHelmet, and learned a lot about the ads, and their implementation, and the overall suckiness of the ad source, from the Tina thread. I also learned that the tension between Kasper and the long-time forum admins was much heavier than I had previously realized.

So, Brad brings up to Kasper that the forum members are pretty pissed off about the ads, and Kasper says, in effect, tough shit, the ads pay the bills. Brad offers to find a source of better ads, and is rebuffed. Brad offers FREE SERVER SPACE to host the forums, and is rebuffed.

Now, sure, Kasper says contact me, email me, PM me, IM me, several times. I can do that too.. but if it takes me weeks or even a month or more to respond when contacted, can I really call myself "in touch" and "accessible?"

Sheesh, that's all I got for now... I have many more thoughts but most of them have already been posted and echoed by others, RE the "secret" forum that was not really secret or elite, and how Kasper's actions on Saturday led to these forums moving from proof-of-concept to a working community in a matter of HOURS, but I gotta get some sleep. And I have a feeling this post is waaaay too long already. If I think of anything else, I'll add it in an edit.

I hope my observations are helpful for those still having a hard time understanding the long sequence of events that led to the unexpectedly ugly flurry of events on Saturday.

LoCash · 2004-05-20, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFL

So, Brad brings up to Kasper that the forum members are pretty pissed off about the ads, and Kasper says, in effect, tough shit, the ads pay the bills. Brad offers to find a source of better ads, and is rebuffed. Brad offers FREE SERVER SPACE to host the forums, and is rebuffed.

Actually most of that was me. Kasper said if I could find better advertisers for him he'd be impressed. So I offered to, he never gave me the information I needed to do so. Instead, sarcastically, implying I was a "big shot", to which I replied, "I don't think I'm a big shot because I can find you better advertisers, I'm a big shot because I could do it all without ads."

alcimedes did eventually get Kasperto view the ads and convince him to do aomething about it... but that only took eight months. People talk to Kasper... people had emailed him and IM'd him. I had IM'd him several times, but I never got a response. Ever. When you do that and the person still never gets back to you, you eventually learn to stop trying

mrmister · 2004-05-20, 13:29

Thanks FFL and LoCash--that's useful info to hear, and helps me get a sense of what went on far better than the .pdfs did.

LoCash · 2004-05-20, 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmister

Thanks FFL and LoCash--that's useful info to hear, and helps me get a sense of what went on far better than the .pdfs did.

It's such a long issue that dated back even before Kasper, so it is pretty much next to impossible to get enough out of the PDFs. You'll excuse my diction at times, but I do get rather frustrated with being vilified and charged with splitting the community as if I have now joined the ranks of Skeletor.

All of this really has its roots before Kasper came back. Before the vBulletin upgrade even, there was talk about publishing the front end again. That's when mac3d.com was brought up by me to offer a home to the forums, and it would also give me a wonderful chance to publish a site I spent a good four years on. But that all fell through rather quickly, and things like that were never brought up again until Kasper came back. I know I had tried communicating with Kasper early on when he first came back... but he never responded to anything I posted in the mod forum, and he never responded to any IM I sent him. I don't think I ever emailed him, but I know Brad did once and someone like James or alcimedes had to tell Kasper to reply to Brad.

I can appreciate someone being really busy as much as the next guy, but when I say I'm going to do something, I do it. That includes being available for communication with people if I say I will be. So Kasper's first impressions on me weren't so great, and that is probably where, at least for me, the frustration with Kasper began.

I know there are a fair amount of people at appleinsider.com that are "disappointed" in what happened, or feel that Brad, alcimedes, and myself had acted in "bad faith". A handful of those (and it confuses me that James makes that list) don't want to know anyone else's side... for instance exactly why Brad may have logged in and posted as Kasper, or why some people were intentionally not told about this, etceteras.

But it didn't go down the way it was supposed to, Kasper could have kept it from becoming a huge mess if he had taken the Posting Guidelines suggestion of 'Never post while angry," and talked to us instead. We pretty much got forced into making this site when we were exiled, and we're really flattered to see the site actually surviving on its own.

In addendum, this isn't a war. At least, we at .org don't see it that way. We don't hate Kasper, though we think he is a jerk, we don't want to ruin appleinsider or appleinsider.com. We just wanted to make something better for the members, and if anybody thinks it is about feeding our own egos... you try doing this. It has taken enormous amounts of time and money from Brad, alcimedes, and myself. If I were going to feed my ego, I'd sure as hell pick a better way.

FFL · 2004-05-20, 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoCash

Actually most of that was me.

DOH!
I knew that, sorry Jack! </me> was really trying to finish up that looong post somewhere around 5 AM and the neurons weren't all firing. Thanks for setting that straight.

FFL · 2004-05-20, 14:01

Here's more:

If you didn't click on the Details Here link on the Tina Must Die thread, you should, it's here:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=38129

a whole lot of very open discussions of the frustrations... obvious signs of dissent and rebellion even....

All in the Suggestions forum, all completely 100% public

Akumulator · 2004-05-20, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFL

Here's more:

If you didn't click on the Details Here link on the Tina Must Die thread, you should, it's here:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=38129

a whole lot of very open discussions of the frustrations... obvious signs of dissent and rebellion even....

All in the Suggestions forum, all completely 100% public

Dang...

murbot · 2004-05-20, 15:35

Is that an old image? I checked, and you're in the Registered group as of a few minutes ago. I don't see a ban at all.

Akumulator · 2004-05-20, 15:40

I'm banned at the IP level here at work because I registered a new member name as: AppleInsider.org. I never even made a post. And that means none of my coworkers can access .com. oooops.

thuh Freak · 2004-05-20, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFL

Here's more:

If you didn't click on the Details Here link on the Tina Must Die thread, you should, it's here:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=38129

a whole lot of very open discussions of the frustrations... obvious signs of dissent and rebellion even....

All in the Suggestions forum, all completely 100% public

that's interesting. i hadn't seen that thread, nor encountered a problem, having modified my /etc/hosts long before. i didn't realize the revolution started in suggestions either. it's also kind of funny how we were once allowed to talk about revolutionizing ai, but we're not allowed to talk about it once it came to fruition.

by the way, mods/admins/people-in-the-know, what was the deal with not saying 'kasper' in the days of old? did he tell you guys he doesn't want anyone to know he owned the boat?

InactionMan · 2004-05-20, 17:32

FFL, you are so itching for a ban at .com for bumping that. The overlords won't be pleased.
I was going to suggest that someone register at .com as Tina and bump the thread with a simple, "hi there"

InactionMan · 2004-05-20, 17:39

What the hell??? I thought FFL bumped the Tina thread, and now it's gone. I think I'm going crazy. Too much intermanet for inactionman. Gah!

*confirmed* I've lost it. I'm seeing things. dear lord.

FFL · 2004-05-20, 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFL

Here's more:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=38129

a whole lot of very open discussions of the frustrations... obvious signs of dissent and rebellion even....

All in the Suggestions forum, all completely 100% public

Well, hell. Sorry folks, that thread has now been completely vaporized. All I did was post to it to bump it, made NO mention of the split and these forums, and the next thing I know I have a PM warning me against spamming the forums. I'll resist the temptation to post the PM in its entirety, but let's just say it's probably the last straw for me, and I am now a one-forum man.

FFL · 2004-05-20, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by InactionMan

FFL, you are so itching for a ban at .com for bumping that. The overlords won't be pleased.

If posting "this thread is interesting" to an existing thread is a ban-worth offense there, then I will wear my ban stick bruises proudly, for that is not a community I want to be part of.

InactionMan · 2004-05-20, 18:33

I'm kinda glad that thread was vaporized. It means I'm not losing my mind. Anyway, the Tina thread was happily sitting in my safari cache.

I make no guarantees about my bandwidth. It is beleaguered at best.

Page 1
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Edit - Weird, it still shows up if you search for it.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt... e+of+bad+ads

FFL · 2004-05-20, 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by InactionMan

I'm kinda glad that thread was vaporized. It means I'm not losing my mind. Anyway, the Tina thread was happily sitting in my safari cache.

I make no guarantees about my bandwidth. It is beleaguered at best.

Page 1
Page 2
Page 3

good action, man

alcimedes · 2004-05-20, 19:31

just to be safe i've saved it, happening a lot lately. seems i'm going to have my own wayback machine of AI.

mrmister · 2004-05-21, 20:55

Wow. I can't believe how quickly things have degenerated at .com--it's disgraceful. And thanks for the great post LoCash.

I believe I, too, am a one forum man now.

FFL · 2004-05-22, 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by InactionMan

Edit - Weird, it still shows up if you search for it.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt... e+of+bad+ads

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autodata hustlin Join Date: May 2004	2004-05-20, 01:14 Edit: FFL sums it up much better Last edited by autodata : 2004-05-20 at 08:41.

DMBand0026 Disturb the universe Join Date: May 2004 Location: Chicago	2004-05-20, 01:26 Haha. Please do the calculations, cause a few members seem to be confused as well. Am I the only one who thinks this is getting really old? And learn those quote tags too, for my, and everyone else's sanity. Come waste your time with me Adapt, Improvise, Overcome

mrmister Member Join Date: May 2004	2004-05-20, 13:29 Thanks FFL and LoCash--that's useful info to hear, and helps me get a sense of what went on far better than the .pdfs did.

FFL Fishhead Family Reunited Join Date: May 2004 Location: Slightly Off Center	2004-05-20, 14:01 Here's more: If you didn't click on the Details Here link on the Tina Must Die thread, you should, it's here: http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=38129 a whole lot of very open discussions of the frustrations... obvious signs of dissent and rebellion even.... All in the Suggestions forum, all completely 100% public Fishhead For Life "Since 1982" ><=>

murbot Demon Join Date: May 2004 Location: Canada	2004-05-20, 15:35 Is that an old image? I checked, and you're in the Registered group as of a few minutes ago. I don't see a ban at all.

Akumulator Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Atlanta	2004-05-20, 15:40 I'm banned at the IP level here at work because I registered a new member name as: AppleInsider.org. I never even made a post. And that means none of my coworkers can access .com. oooops. Last edited by Akumulator : 2004-05-20 at 17:53. Reason: because I can.

InactionMan Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004	2004-05-20, 17:32 FFL, you are so itching for a ban at .com for bumping that. The overlords won't be pleased. I was going to suggest that someone register at .com as Tina and bump the thread with a simple, "hi there"

InactionMan Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004	2004-05-20, 17:39 What the hell??? I thought FFL bumped the Tina thread, and now it's gone. I think I'm going crazy. Too much intermanet for inactionman. Gah! confirmed I've lost it. I'm seeing things. dear lord.

InactionMan Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004	2004-05-20, 18:33 I'm kinda glad that thread was vaporized. It means I'm not losing my mind. Anyway, the Tina thread was happily sitting in my safari cache. I make no guarantees about my bandwidth. It is beleaguered at best. Page 1 Page 2 Page 3 Edit - Weird, it still shows up if you search for it. http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt... e+of+bad+ads

alcimedes I shot the sherrif. Join Date: May 2004	2004-05-20, 19:31 just to be safe i've saved it, happening a lot lately. seems i'm going to have my own wayback machine of AI.

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mrmister Member Join Date: May 2004	2004-05-21, 20:55 Wow. I can't believe how quickly things have degenerated at .com--it's disgraceful. And thanks for the great post LoCash. I believe I, too, am a one forum man now.

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What is the beef against AI.com, Kasper, et. al. ?