[Quagmire]

The Chevy Camaro is back! At least in concept. I am sure though GM will get enough attention to the Camaro, and build it. I like it better then the Mustang and coming Dodge Challenger. Its design cues come from the '69 Camaro.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=3124

[ShadowOfGed]

Originally Posted by Quagmire The Chevy Camaro is back! At least in concept. I am sure though GM will get enough attention to the Camaro, and build it. I like it better then the Mustang and coming Dodge Challenger. Its design cues come from the '69 Camaro. http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=3124

And fuel prices in 2008/2009 will be what?

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by ShadowOfGed And fuel prices in 2008/2009 will be what?

GM has one of the most fuel efficient V8's around. The Corvette Z06 is estimated to get 16/26 even with the massive 7.0L 505 HP LS7 V8. The LS2 corvette is estimated to get 18/28. The Impala SS with the LS4 is estimated to get 18/28. So I expect the Camaro to get around the same. Hell, the 4G Camaro got 18/28 with the LS1 V8. I also expect GM to offer the 3.9 V6 as an option as well. GM would be stupid not to.

[ShadowOfGed]

Originally Posted by Quagmire GM has one of the most fuel efficient V8's around. The Corvette Z06 is estimated to get 16/26 even with the massive 7.0L 505 HP LS7 V8. The LS2 corvette is estimated to get 18/28. The Impala SS with the LS4 is estimated to get 18/28. So I expect the Camaro to get around the same. Hell, the 4G Camaro got 18/28 with the LS1 V8. I also expect GM to offer the 3.9 V6 as an option as well. GM would be stupid not to.

Even with decent milage like that, big engines are going to be extremely expensive to drive in 2009. I'm beginning to have worries about what my V6 '98 Mazda 626 will be costing me...

Sports cars are always neat to show off... I just can't imagine paying to purchase, maintain, and fuel one. To each his own.

[Quagmire]

Apparently that GM yelled at R&T and the link with the video was removed. Expect it to be relaunched by Monday.

[pscates2.0]

At the recent Detroit Auto Show, Dodge showed a modern Challenger concept.

All these companies, the past few years, are doing the time machine thing, huh?

Some of them work (that Camaro isn't too bad). But some of them aren't so good.

A real retro trend at play, the past several years: PT Cruiser, Ford's T-Bird (now gone), the rebirth of the Beetle, the Mini Cooper, the Prowler and then new cars that are meant to evoke a sort of 50's/retro vibe, like that weird Chevy truck/car thing (can't remember the name, but you know what I'm talking about).

Oh, and not to forget the new Mustang, which is the first modern Mustang design that I've actually liked (I've hated Mustangs since the 80's). But I like the looks of the current one.

The Dodge Challenger concept was interesting.

Also, Dodge brought back the Charger too (but it's not as hot-rod or muscle as one would expect...almost looks Taurus-y).



Everything old is new again...just takes 20-30 years for its coolness to cycle back around and be "rediscovered", that's all.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 At the recent Detroit Auto Show, Dodge showed a modern Challenger concept. All these companies, the past few years, are doing the time machine thing, huh? Some of them work (that Camaro isn't too bad). But some of them aren't so good. A real retro trend at play, the past several years: PT Cruiser, Ford's T-Bird (now gone), the rebirth of the Beetle, the Mini Cooper, the Prowler and then new cars that are meant to evoke a sort of 50's/retro vibe, like that weird Chevy truck/car thing (can't remember the name, but you know what I'm talking about). Oh, and not to forget the new Mustang, which is the first modern Mustang design that I've actually liked (I've hated Mustangs since the 80's). But I like the looks of the current one. The Dodge Challenger concept was interesting. Also, Dodge brought back the Charger too (but it's not as hot-rod or muscle as one would expect...almost looks Taurus-y). Everything old is new again...just takes 20-30 years for its coolness to cycle back around and be "rediscovered", that's all.

That weird truck thingy is the HHR. Based off the FWD Delta platform which underpins the Chevy Cobalt and the Saturn Ion. Yeah, I notice that too scates. Retro is in. I think GM pulled off the retro design the best with the HHR and Camaro. I like the Mustang as well. The T-Bird is one of the worst jobs to bring a retro design. I must say though the Toyota FJ Cruiser is the ugliest and worst retro job ever! But then again, I might be biased. The Challenger is too retro for my taste, but I think it will sell well, even though it is predicted to start at $28K.

[Quagmire]

Here is the video that was attached to the link I posted above. The link for the video is under the pic of the car.

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209846

[Robo]

I can't tell if Pscates was talking about the SSR (a weird retro convertible pickup) or the HHR (a crossover that shares the same designer as the PT Crusier, and it shows) but those are both notable "retro" cars.

Nobody has mentioned the Chrysler Crossfire. It's not a bad car (it's basically a Mercedes-Benz SL350 with cooler styling and $10k off the purchase price), but it's not selling to well, apparently, as it's days are alledgedly numbered.

VW had an awesome "New Microbus" concept that floated around for a few years, but they decided that it would be less risky to build another boring boxy Eurovan. Paralasys like that is the reason VW is in a financial hole to begin with - I guarantee that the New Microbus concept would have sold more than the Eurovan, but rather than designing an auto that everybody would want to drive, they decided to make an auto that a select few would have to drive. And now they're ditching the Eurovan to make a new minivan with Chrysler. Do you hear that, VW? It's the sound of a missed opportunity.

Personally, I love this retro movement. The Mini Cooper and the Plymouth/Chrysler Prowler are two of my favorite cars ever.

[rageous]

I liked this camaro concept better




but that new one looks nice.

[Luca]

Quag, you seem to like everything GM does so I'm not surprised you like the styling of the HHR. Personally I don't think I've ever seen an uglier car. And while the new Challenger concept is a bit over-the-top, I do like it. Also, concept cars tend to have crazier styling than the final product.

The problem now is that none of the regions seem to offer quite what I'm looking for in a car... European cars are now by far the least reliable, having taken a nosedive in the last 5-10 years. Japanese cars have never been particularly exciting but these days they're even more boring than ever. Toyota, for example, has discontinued the Supra, Celica, and MR2. And American cars... well, they're promising, but they still lack refinement and it seems like you can't even get a bloody manual transmission in them anymore. And there are too many SUVs... I mean, there's even a Porsche SUV!

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Luca Quag, you seem to like everything GM does so I'm not surprised you like the styling of the HHR. Personally I don't think I've ever seen an uglier car. And while the new Challenger concept is a bit over-the-top, I do like it. Also, concept cars tend to have crazier styling than the final product.

I am capable of being critical of GM. I hate how the top-brass people are being overpaid( a la Wagoner CEO if GM getting paid like $2.6 a year and just securing a $4.6 million pension). I want those people gone from GM! I don't like the look of the Saturn L-Series( thankfully being replaced by the 2007 Aura). I hated the Aztek( I mean who couldn't hate it?). I hate the Uplander and the 2004-2005 Chevy Malibu grille( love the new one though). I hate that GM spent the money rebadging the Chevy Equinox and making the Pontiac Torrent which doesn't belong in Pontiac as it is SUPPOSED to be the performance division. The money spent on the Torrent could of been spent improving the Equinox or getting the Camaro to production faster. I can go on saying what I hate what GM is doing. But I think you see that I am not blindly defending GM.

[pscates2.0]

Originally Posted by Roboman I can't tell if Pscates was talking about the SSR (a weird retro convertible pickup) or the HHR (a crossover that shares the same designer as the PT Crusier, and it shows) but those are both notable "retro" cars.

The SSR (the pickup thing). I wasn't even aware of the HHR until you mentioned it, and went to their site to check it out.

I follow cars about as much as I do sports.

[Robo]

The Camaro Concept is a case where I absolutely hated the original car (I am NOT a muscle car guy) but I like the concept, and would probably like it a lot more if not for the connection with said muscle car.

I love sharp, edgy, low-slung cars. I love the Cadillac XLR - for its styling, if for nothing else. I don't like the front of the Camaro Concept (simply because I'm not a muscle car guy), nor the rear (ditto), but I love the profile. I wish more modern cars, less encumbered by retro chains, would go for the low-slung Batmobile look.

Within reason (see: Mercedes SLR).

[Crusader]

I'm not sure why the muscle car craze has once again hit Detroit, especially with fuel prices going they way they have been. Insurance and gas killed the first era of muscle cars. I think this 'revival' is both a way that the current companies can target both the aging boomers and the younger generations that fondly drool over cars like the Dart and the GTO.

Now I admit, GM's design team has been getting several things right (XLR, CTS, CTS-V, C6, Z06, Solstice/Sky) but all of those cars have been more 'specialty' cars with the exception of the CTS. GM needs to move it's styling down into the more mainstream lines. Most car designs today are pretty uninspired, and bland. The Cobalt is a good example. It's a decent car, but if you look at in profile, it's rear-end sticks up really high. Same with the focus and others. Whoever thought that was a good design needs to go back to styling school. Now I know that those are supposed to be low-end cheap cars, but that doesn't mean that it needs to look like crap. I agree with Roboman in my love of low-slung cars, drop the rear-ends down, make the cars look slightly more aggressive, and I think you have a car that has broad appeal.

[Luca]

Maybe it's because cars have recently become so boring? When everything out there is designed to be fuel-efficient and practical, a few people are naturally going to want a big-engined, RWD car with some major pick-up.

Sports cars seem to be going by the wayside in favor of two things: Muscle cars (V6 or V8 with RWD, lots and lots of torque and power) and sport compact cars (higher-powered versions of 4-cylinder FWD small cars). Look at how many of the latter there are:

Chevy Cobalt SS
Ford Focus SVT
Dodge Neon SRT-4
Toyota Corolla S
Honda Civic Si
Acura RSX Type-S
Nissan Sentra SE-R
Mazda Protege Mazdaspeed
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution
Subaru Impreza WRX
Volkswagen Golf GTI

They're all FWD (or sometimes AWD), which hurts their handling, but at the same time they're also based on small cars. All of them are lightweight, fairly practical, and they are pretty powerful for their size too. Most of the cars I listed produce around 180-200 hp, with the Impreza and the Lancer doing closer to 240 with their turbochargers. There are probably more that I missed. How many of the above manufacturers also make affordable sports cars? Not many... the ones that do make sports cars (and that's not all of them) usually don't make them in roughly the same price range as their sport compacts. Old cars like the Ford Probe, Toyota Celica, and Mitsubishi Eclipse are less popular because the same performance can be achieved from a much more practical 4-door platform. So the only sports cars you see are either muscle cars or the higher-end ones like the Corvette and the Ford GT.

A lot of people say that sports cars are dead or dying, but I say they've just changed form. There will always be people who want something quick and fun to drive, but you don't have to use a low 2-door coupe to satisfy them.

[Matsu]

That concept looks great and they should build it.

While I consider design to be superior to styling, Americana is reflected in 'styling'. It's really OK to show some flair, the company will be the better for it.

We don't need brand management that has every vehicle from sport convertible and entry level hatch, to sports car, pick-up and SUV all trying to forcibly incorporate the same cues.

Let cars be what they want to be, and that is what a Camaro wants to be.

[WrestleEwe]

Originally Posted by Luca They're all FWD (or sometimes AWD), which hurts their handling,

Ah yes, that's why V8 muscle cars are raced around an oval track and these cars are used in courses with actual corners...

[Luca]

I'm not saying V8 muscle cars necessarily handle well either, I'm just pointing out the simple fact that a FWD car will suffer from understeer in hard cornering due to the front wheels being overworked. That's why true sports cars are RWD.

Unfortunately, the small, affordable sports cars of the 80s and 90s first went FWD and then disappeared in favor of FWD sport compacts. It's also why older small RWD cars are so popular these days - the Nissan Silvia/240SX, Toyota Corolla AE86, and Toyota MR2 are not especially powerful, but their RWD drivetrain gives them a lot of potential and they're still popular today despite their age, because there simply isn't anything on the market that's quite the same. If you want a RWD sports car now you have to go the extra mile and get something like a Mazda RX-8, Honda S2000, Nissan 350Z, or Ford Mustang.

[alcimedes]

hey now, the RX8 isn't that expensive, esp. used.

[WrestleEwe]

I thought that there was a revival in small RWD roadsters? With the BMW Z4, Lotus Elise, Mazda MX-5, Honda S2000, Audi TT...

But anyway, Luca, you are right about the older Japanese RWD sportscars, those are brilliant if you just want to go "wild" and have a bit of drifting fun on the "closed and supervised parking lot"... and you can actually put more than your laptop in the boot of those cars too!