[theshadow]

On September second or third microsoft will go public with their music store, with MS Tunes in America or whatever they'll call Mediaplayer Ten and extend and extinguish music choice all over Europe.

Apple beware, you are about to get thrashed. Make friends and pound your enemies now!

[pscates2.0]

I'm shaking in my boots...

Let's meet back here in, say, three months to discuss what a cheeseball non-event and flatlining enterprise this is, shall we?



Microsoft couldn't find it with two hands and a flashlight, so I'm not particularly worried about anything they put out. Why anyone thinks - after years of evidence to the contrary - that they'll release a superior solution than Apple is beyond me.

Unless, of course, they outright copy the entire damn thing which is the likely scenario.

I can't wait to see it. And within a week there will be reports about how downloading songs from it has opened some huge security hole and some kid in Colorado has his entire computer accidentally erased by the orbiting space shuttle.



Please...bring it on.

[theshadow]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Unless, of course, they outright copy the entire damn thing which is the likely scenario.

Mediaplayer10 will look like iTunes and America will get an Apple Music Store clone that stands alongside Expedia and HOtmail and such.

It really is coming at the end of next week. CHOMP!

Overseas, theyll continue to partner with third-party companies to tighten their grip on the market since iTunes has a lot of traction, but also a lot of anti-us feeling. Strange that the most anti-american Euros all use microsoft.

[Barto]

Like Paul said, I'm shaking in my boots. No, really.

Terrified.

IBL.

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 I'm shaking in my boots... Microsoft couldn't find it with two hands and a flashlight, so I'm not particularly worried about anything they put out. Why anyone thinks - after years of evidence to the contrary - that they'll release a superior solution than Apple is beyond me.

MS has shown again and again (and again and again) that they don't need to put out the best solution. They only need to release a solution that's "good enough". You might laugh, but MS has 50+Billion in the bank to steamroll over anyone they feel like.

WMP10 will be pushed out via Windows Update so most Windows users will have this on their PC within weeks of its release. If it's anything like iTunes, where people decide, "What the heck, I'll check it out" and they get 1% of Windows users to buy one song apiece, that equates to roughly 3Million songs. That would be a rousing start for an online music service.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not rooting for MS in the slightest. I'm just saying, don't discount them. Apple did that once before and we know where that got them.

[SilentEchoes]

MS has shown again and again (and again and again) that they don't need to put out the best solution.

Bingo.

You guys seem pretty quick to forget the past, or even how MS works for that example. When has MS ever played fair? You guys do remember Netscape right?

Second, MS has a huge market share. Their music store could ship on every new PC, not just HP ones. Apple maybe doing pretty well now but there is still a lot of PC users out there who do not know about iTMS or anything of the like.

Third, MS has played unfairly before. I wouldn't look to the DOJ to help out if they do decide to play naughty.

And last, should something happen MS has a HUGE war chest, Even if they get sued by any one player in the music download for any reason its still going to be like shooting an elephant with a bb-gun. Also, MS has a hand in several industries. All they have to do is get a foothold and next thing you know you will be downloading music from the MS Music store via satellites into your car..

All I am saying is you guys should not be so quick to dismiss MS on this one.

[pscates2.0]

And all I'm saying is that it will be a pale rip-off to Apple's 18-month head start. No Mac person I could imagine is going to go this way, and I've had a fair share of PC people tell me that the Apple iPod/iTMS/iTunes combo is the only thing they're interested in (they're PC users who hate Microsoft, oddly enough).

Point is, it isn't going to hurt Apple and I don't see it as any threat. Apple isn't going to suddenly stop what they're doing. At worst, maybe a year from now, is stop development on Windows-based iTunes/iTMS.

Big deal. Let 'em. Apple doesn't exactly need them (otherwise, ALL their iApps would have a Windows counterpart), and last year's extension of iTunes to the other side was merely a gracious gesture, and Apple doing people a favor.



If this upcoming Microsoft thing was a big steamrolling hit on the PC side, fine. iTunes can go back to be being a stellar, kick-ass Mac only product and Apple can simply focus on making it and the store an even better product for their loyal, demanding base.

I'm aware of Microsoft's history and tactics. And I don't care. If people opt for their approach, fine. But Apple's got momentum, they offer the entire widget (software/store/player), it's easy as pie to use, etc.

I'll bet $50 the Microsoft thing will be nowhere near as simple and elegant as Apple's and many PC users - already owning an iPod, already having an iTMS account, etc. - will gladly continue dancing with the one that brought them.



Another example of Microsoft showing up late, with their shoes untied, and bullying their way onto the floor when no one is really asking them (how's all that for a cool prom analogy?).

[Akumulator]

Microsoft plans to quietly launch the MSN online music store with the new version of its Windows Media 10 player. Early-release versions of the player look like knock-offs of Apple's iTunes Music Store, complete with brushed nickel finish. But hey, why mess with success? A button in the upper right corner of the player will take consumers to the download store.

LINK

[supermegatron]

Microsoft's music store will be fully compatible with the iPod. Songs purchased from their store can also be imported into iTunes but not vice versa.

[alcimedes]

what you haven't taken into account is the RIAA's and MPAA's wariness of Microsoft. There's legitimate worry in the entertainment industry that giving MS a strong foothold in their market will relegate them to niche players, with MS being the dominating force. Apple has some nice partners/people on their side with this one.

another thing that people seem to forget is that for every XBox and IE, MS has had dozens of failed attempts at taking over a market. considering the online music business is a money losing proposition, or close to it, there isn't the same incentive to take over. even if you're king, you're left with crap. now if MS starts selling an MP3 player, i might start to worry, that might be enough to make them throw piles of money down the drain, i just don't see it yet.

although after looking at the whole Netscape debacle, everyone lauged at IE when it came out, and it wasn't really a money maker back then either. of course, i don't expect Apple to sit on their asses like Netscape did, so i'm still not overly worried.

Microsoft's music store will be fully compatible with the iPod. Songs purchased from their store can also be imported into iTunes but not vice versa.

perhaps, but it's not listed on their "supported players" list. if the songs are coming out as DRM'ed WMA files, then it won't support the iPod. that's probably a bigger indication of success of failure than anything else.

[pscates2.0]

Originally Posted by supermegatron Microsoft's music store will be fully compatible with the iPod. Songs purchased from their store can also be imported into iTunes but not vice versa.

For people concerned with that stuff, that's great news I suppose.

I usually tend to find and settle on one thing that works well. I don't use Illustrator, Freehand AND Canvas...just Illustrator. I don't use Mail and Entourage...just Mail. And I won't use iTunes, Real's solution AND the new Microsoft one...I use iTunes.

Gets confusing and bulky the other way, keeping multiple libraries, duplicates everywhere, remembering what works with what, etc. No thanks! But that's just me and how I prefer to do things.

[theshadow]

Seriously folks I saw the details last week for it all and it doesnt look pretty for Mac. They're going in for the kill on ALL fronts - digital players, online services including their own, partnerships worldwide - and Im afraid Apple wont be able to compete.

Apple REALLY needs some partners. The Macrovision thing will lead where ... ?

WHAM!

[SilentEchoes]

I'm the same way Paul, I mean thats what owning a Mac is all about. I was simply suggesting that this should not simply be passed off as nothing. I really don't see Apple losing to much ground to this.

[Luca]

Keep in mind that supermegatron's other two posts have been to claim that the eMac will be discontinued and to predict that the next iBooks will have a BTO option for internal bluetooth.

[SKMDC]

Originally Posted by theshadow Seriously folks I saw the details last week for it all and it doesnt look pretty for Mac. They're going in for the kill on ALL fronts - digital players, online services including their own, partnerships worldwide - and Im afraid Apple wont be able to compete. Apple REALLY needs some partners. The Macrovision thing will lead where ... ? WHAM!

what a load of bullocks! just like m/s now owns the game console industry.

[Messiahtosh]

There was a report on the Microsoft Music Store on MSNBC yesterday, and the report was very favorable to Apple, calling the legal download business, "iTunes and the 7 dwarfs."

The thing they pointed out was that there is nothing even close to the popularity of the hardware that Apple has with the iPod, and they said Microsoft will never be able to duplicate that success...I agree.

[hmurchison]

Originally Posted by theshadow Seriously folks I saw the details last week for it all and it doesnt look pretty for Mac. They're going in for the kill on ALL fronts - digital players, online services including their own, partnerships worldwide - and Im afraid Apple wont be able to compete. Apple REALLY needs some partners. The Macrovision thing will lead where ... ? WHAM!

Wow three tries and you've yet to post anything worth a second of thought. Try harder.

[billybobsky]

Originally Posted by theshadow Seriously folks I saw the details last week for it all and it doesnt look pretty for Mac. They're going in for the kill on ALL fronts - digital players, online services including their own, partnerships worldwide - and Im afraid Apple wont be able to compete. Apple REALLY needs some partners. The Macrovision thing will lead where ... ? WHAM!

"pretty for Mac," eh?

[alcimedes]

IMO, you've got two choices if you want to break into the online music biz, at least as of now.

1. you have to come out with a better player than the iPod. then build your online music distribution around said format/hardware. it's possible, but not likely. the iPod is both chic and usable. it's a perfect example of form following function, but in this case, the form is immaculate.

2. come out with a better or competitive music store than iTunes. make your songs play on the iPod, seeing as it's by far the most popular player. if you choose to go this route, you'll hit two snags. first, to get any kind of selection you'll have to DRM your songs. otherwise no artist will allow you to distribute them. (shady russian mp3 sites aside). if you choose to DRM them, you basically have two choices. license Fairplay from Apple, or go with MS's WMV. i would guess that MS is going to go with their own media format. if that's the case your songs won't play on iPods.

if you sell them in an iPod compatitble format, odds are you'll just push iPod sales (the entire premise behind the iTunes store). more money for Apple.

really the only way to unseat Apple at this point is to attack on both fronts at once. to pull that off you'll need a better/cheaper player, better online music store, and have a marketing campaign that will weaken the iPods death grip on the mp3 player market.

good luck.

oh, and new guy who thinks he knows everything. when your info conflicts with MS's own press releases regarding their as-of-yet unreleased products, you're going to need more than "trust me, i know" to convince anyone.

[Tuttle]

Comparing iTunes to Netscape is silly.



Unless you're a MS fanatic, their entry into the music market is a non-event.

The only possible things that could worry Apple:

* MS came out with their own hardware that they massively subsidized - although look at the marketplace failure of the heavily subsidized xbox

* MS manages to break/hamper iTunes on MS OSes - much tougher to get away with these days, but still possible

* MS uses it's relations with partners to shut out iTunes - ie what they were able to do to Netscape. Not really effective since iTunes is an easy download from Apple's site and OEMs are no longer so easily bullied as they were in the nineties with the rise of Linux and the post trial environment

Unless some company comes up with a real iPod competitor that only works with MS solutions, Apple/iTunes/iTMS/iPod/AAC will remain dominant.

[bassplayinMacFiend]

I thought MS was coming out with a player in Sep./Oct.? Granted, it's going to be an audio + video thing (big, bulky and fugly, no doubt), but I swear I read something a month or so ago that it was on track to be MS's answer to Apple's iTMS + iPod strategy.

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Point is, it isn't going to hurt Apple and I don't see it as any threat. Apple isn't going to suddenly stop what they're doing. At worst, maybe a year from now, is stop development on Windows-based iTunes/iTMS. Big deal. Let 'em. Apple doesn't exactly need them (otherwise, ALL their iApps would have a Windows counterpart), and last year's extension of iTunes to the other side was merely a gracious gesture, and Apple doing people a favor.

I'm glad you aren't running Apple. Do you remember just how many more 'Pods & songs Apple sold once they released it for Windows? Killing Win operability would probably kill Apple's ability to get more new releases for their store. Not only that, but they would be conceding 95% of the possible download market to the Virgin's, Napster's and Microsoftw's of the world. IOW a big fat strategical blunder, IMO.

[supermegatron]

For the record the iPod can play wma files now. iPods use the "Portal Player chip" this chip supports AAC,WMA,MP3 & I believe Reals format. Your a firmware upgrade away from having a player without limits.

[pscates2.0]

Do you really believe that (a non-Windows iTunes/iTMS influences getting more product onto the store), bassplayer? That doesn't even make sense. They were doing just super great before last fall and the Windows iTunes rollout.

If, worst case scenario, they had to go back to Mac-only, it wouldn't be the end of anything, I bet. I'm not HOPING for that, mind you, but I'm saying I don't sit and quiver over everything Microsoft says or does OR worry about catering to PC users. I don't think that factors in to the song selections and improvements. Hell, most musicians and artists and producers are probably Mac people anyway. They wouldn't go anywhere or take it as a slam that iTunes was suddenly "Mac-only" once again.

I doubt they'd care...they'd still sell stuff left and right to devoted fans.

Again, if that were the absolute, end-all/be-all case, Apple would have iPhoto and the other stuff in a Windows version by now, wouldn't they? They're better, more elegant and fun-to-use solutions.

In any case, there would be worse scenarios than me running Apple.

[Messiahtosh]

Originally Posted by bassplayinMacFiend I thought MS was coming out with a player in Sep./Oct.? Granted, it's going to be an audio + video thing (big, bulky and fugly, no doubt), but I swear I read something a month or so ago that it was on track to be MS's answer to Apple's iTMS + iPod strategy.

You swear you read something? And that makes it true and probable? You think MS has an answer to Apple in terms of hardware?:smokey:

Originally Posted by bassplayinMacFiend I'm glad you aren't running Apple. Do you remember just how many more 'Pods & songs Apple sold once they released it for Windows? Killing Win operability would probably kill Apple's ability to get more new releases for their store. Not only that, but they would be conceding 95% of the possible download market to the Virgin's, Napster's and Microsoftw's of the world. IOW a big fat strategical blunder, IMO.

Apple won't do that, and you know why? They own music now, and there is not much that can change that, as Alcimedes so wonderfully pointed out. Paul was just saying that for most people, if the market ceased to go in Apple's favor, Apple would retain a large number of users regardless.

[Luca]

Originally Posted by supermegatron For the record the iPod can play wma files now. iPods use the "Portal Player chip" this chip supports AAC,WMA,MP3 & I believe Reals format. Your a firmware upgrade away from having a player without limits.

So? Are we "a firmware upgrade away" from being able to play WMA, or can the iPod "play WMA files now?" Which is it? I'll answer it for you - it's the former. Apple likes to keep their options open, but supporting WMA on the iPod would be a suicide move. They need AAC to take hold as the dominant format. Sure, some people might be able to hack WMA support onto an iPod, but it won't be easy enough to do to get really widespread. Besides, even if it can play WMA files, will the iPod be able to decode the DRM used on WMA-encoded music downloads? I don't think so.

Apple also has an x86 box hidden somewhere in Cupertino running OS X, I'm sure. It doesn't mean they're going to actually make it available to the public.

[trailmaster308]

Originally Posted by bassplayinMacFiend I thought MS was coming out with a player in Sep./Oct.? Granted, it's going to be an audio + video thing (big, bulky and fugly, no doubt), but I swear I read something a month or so ago that it was on track to be MS's answer to Apple's iTMS + iPod strategy.

You talking about this thing? It's competing more with the Creative Zen video player rather than the iPod.




link

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Originally Posted by Messiahtosh You swear you read something? And that makes it true and probable? You think MS has an answer to Apple in terms of hardware?:smokey:

No, I was offering an opinion, kinda like what you're doing. Everyone's got one, you know. I was saying if MS comes out with the complete package, just like Apple has, they have a chance of growing their market quickly, thanks to the world of NBMers.

After doing more checking, it looks like MS is just offering the PMC, or Portable Media Centre platform ( link ). So, no hardware from MS directly.

[FFL]

Even if it somehow manages to be "almost as good" as iTunes, it's not going to get PC users already using iTunes to switch. That just leaves the unwashed masses who don't / won't have an iPod, who don't give a shit about a music jukebox or downloading music, or are currently using MusicMatch, WMP 9 or some other Peece o Crap.

The only concern would be the increasing WMP user base going forward, of consumers buying new Dells and deciding to stick with the "default" music player (assuming they never buy an iPod). It will take a while for that user base growth to gain any kind of critical mass, if it indeed becomes a factor. And these are just the "followers" - the "leaders" are already using iTunes.

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Originally Posted by trailmaster308 You talking about this thing? It's competing more with the Creative Zen video player rather than the iPod. link

Yea, my brain warped articles like this to read "MS is producing PMP/PVP hardware" when in reality, they are just producing the PMC platform.

[DMBand0026]

Originally Posted by Messiahtosh The thing they pointed out was that there is nothing even close to the popularity of the hardware that Apple has with the iPod, and they said Microsoft will never be able to duplicate that success...I agree.

I'm gonna have to agree with you here too. If indeed MS does come out with the latest "iPod killer" (of which there have been literally hundreds since the first iPod), it will suck, just like the store will suck, just like WMP 10 will suck. Have any of you actually seen the latest version of WMP, <barf>. Horrible UI, slow, big, bulky, everything I don't want in an app. And no amount of copying from MS will make WMP a good app, or the MS store a good store.

I'm slightly concerned, but only about 1% of me, cause that's all the marketshare that MS will manage to take from Apple here. I'd bet on it


Edit:

Oh yeah, did I mention how badly the MS "iTunes+iPod" combo will fail because it wont work? Cause it wont. It's gonna be extremely hard to figure out and even worse to keep working correctly once you do get it. I had a friend who had a Dell DJ and it took her three days to figure out how to get a song on it before she called me an enlisted my help. So I went to her house and we troubleshot for a few hours before I called Apple and ordered her an iPod, she returned the DJ, got the iPod and sat there open mouthed as I plugged the iPod in and all the songs loaded, with one click. MS's products will be like the DJ, it just won't work. Contrary to what we've come to expect from our favorite fruit company