[Performa636CD]

Ok, so I've been thinking about buying an Apple Cinema Display for the last six or so months, but I still have a question. I'm currently running a 12" 1.33 G4 PowerBook, and I've got all the cords/adaptors that originally came with it so I know it will hook up all right. What I don't know is the future of the DVI. It's not likely that a connection between Apple laptops and their displays will change to something other than DVI, right? Maybe this is a dumb question, but since I'm paying a 75%+ premium for the Apple 20" display over some other brand (like Dell), I want to be pretty sure that this display will work with the next generation of Apple laptops for the foreseeable future.


(original post restored - FFL)

[Windowsrookie]

DVI wil be around for a long time. Just like VGA. But I have heard apple is developing a new connector that integrates the power, video, and USB. Although a laptop could never power TWO monitors.

[Performa636CD]

thanks

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Performa636CD What I don't know is the future of the DVI. It's not likely that a connection between Apple laptops and their displays will change to something other than DVI, right?

Apple is part of the UDI consortium, who are working on a new connector with that name. There's a competing effort, DisplayPort, as well. Obviously, one of the two will eventually replace DVI, if only for bandwidth reasons. But that said, DVI will serve you well for years, especially considering how many years VGA lasted.

Maybe this is a dumb question, but since I'm paying a 75%+ premium

Errrrrrrrm.

Maybe 50%, if you take rebates into account, which is arguably unfair, but "75%+"? Come on now.

for the Apple 20" display over some other brand (like Dell), I want to be pretty sure that this display will work with the next generation of Apple laptops for the foreseeable future.

That seems a safe assumption to make. Current MacBook Pros still ship with a VGA adapter, after all, so I suppose even when they move to UDI (2008, perhaps? wild guess), they'll most likely include a DVI adapter for free anyway.

Of course, I don't quite see your point. Even with the Dell, you'd be SOL if there wasn't a cheap/free way to connect the display. Sure, you would have spent less on the display itself, but you would still render it useless. That's all moot, though, since it's extremely unlikely that Apple would make it impossible (or expensive) to connect DVI displays any time soon.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by windowsrookie Although a laptop could never power TWO monitors.

Well, technically, the dual-link DVI signal in MacBook Pros and many PowerBook G4s could probably be split into two distinct single-link DVI signals, thus powering two external monitors (and three monitors total, if you include the built-in display) at a time. I guess there's an adapter for that somewhere.

[Windowsrookie]

WOW, 1 hour battery life! I want that! not.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by windowsrookie But I have heard apple is developing a new connector that integrates the power, video, and USB.

You mean ADC?

[Windowsrookie]

No, I mean the "New" connector, that I stated above.

[Barto]

Going by the pricing on the Apple and Dell web site, you're paying a 14% premium for an Apple 30" display. Not outrageous. (EDIT: I just checked the 20", and it's a 78% premium. My bad.)

UDI has a max bandwidth of 16Gbps compared to DVI's 9.96Gbps - not much of a step up. However according to Wikipedia it is backwards compatibile with DVI/HDMI.

DisplayPort on the other hand uses a new packet based protocol and you won't see a cheap DVI adapter for it. I've heard that DisplayPort is not designed as just a display connector but for general physical transmission of video, so it's designed to support DVI adapters (either on chip, on board or external).

As chucker pointed out, Apple is part of the UDI consortium where backwards compatibility isn't an issue. Even if DisplayPort is the next connection technology, laptops generally lag behind desktops with the display connector. Until the aluminium PowerBooks, Apple PowerBooks had VGA connectors. Most PC laptops still have VGA.

[Performa636CD]

20" versus 20" and it's pretty close to a 75% premium without an Apple Edu discount.

P.S. I'm considering buying the 20." Maybe if things turn out well after I graduate in a few days, I'll ask my parents for the 23" hehehe

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Performa636CD 20" versus 20" and it's pretty close to a 75% premium without an Apple Edu discount

Well, I don't know about you, but for me, $799 / $529 = 51.04%. I agree that Apple's price needs to be adjusted (it hasn't been changed in a long time), but you first stated "75%+" (i.e. more), then "pretty close to 75%" (i.e. less), and now you're going to have to admit that it's actually only barely more than 50%.

[Performa636CD]

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/P...listing. aspx

What am I missing?

[Barto]

$799 / $449.65 = 77.6937618%

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Performa636CD http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/P...listing. aspx What am I missing?

The post where I stated that rebates don't count.

I should note that I'm a satisfied owner of the Dell 2005WFP, but I do somewhat regret not having paid the premium for the Apple.

[Performa636CD]

Didn't know the price of $450 for the Dell 20" was after rebates, but then again, I never looked for any.

I guess a price of $450 versus $699 would be a fair comparison then.

P.S. where are the rebates? When checking out after adding the Dell 20" display to your shopping cart, it says the total is $449 or something.

[Windowsrookie]

Looks like it's a limited time offer.

[Robo]

Where will Apple's displays go?

Well, I think they'll drop in price soon - to $499/$999/$1,999.

Then, perhaps sometime after that, we'll see redesigned displays, designed to match the "Mac Pro," with higher resolutions (the 20" model will finally be "HD"), integrated iSights, and the like.

That's all speculation, of course.

[Windowsrookie]

I would love to see some name brand integrated speakers, JBL, bose, Ect.

[Barto]

Rebates don't count because... why exactly? The fact is if you were to buy an Apple 20" widescreen you'd be paying about 78% more than the Dell.

Integrated speakers would be stupid. Who the hell would want a classy 20"+ display with tinny powerless distorted audio?

[Robo]

Originally Posted by windowsrookie I would love to see some name brand integrated speakers, JBL, bose, Ect.

Bose? From the sound of the iPod Hi-Fi, Apple would be better off making their own integrated speakers.

Not that I think they should.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by Barto Rebates don't count because... why exactly? The fact is if you were to buy an Apple 20" widescreen you'd be paying about 78% more than the Dell. Integrated speakers would be stupid. Who the hell would want a classy 20"+ display with tinny powerless distorted audio?

Because rebates really can't count toward a general price comparison. Dell can end rebates at any time, or they might be mail-in rebates that you may or may not ever receive.

[ddrueckhammer]

Originally Posted by Performa636CD I'm paying a 75%+ premium for the Apple 20" display over some other brand (like Dell)

Does anyone know who currently makes Dell's LCD panels? I know Apple does charge a premium for their displays, but I don't think it is fair to compare Apple's displays to Dell's if they aren't made by the same manufacturer. Perhaps, it would be more fair to compare Apple pricing to Samsung displays since that is what they are.

[Barto]

Apple can change the price on their displays anytime too and they aren't mail in rebates. Right now the Apple has a 78% premium. If Apple or Dell change their prices, then the premium changes and we can say "oh, it's not so bad".

According to TFT Central, the Apple 20" and Dell 2007WFP use the same panel - the 20" WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201W01).

[Partial]

Is Apple ever going to get new panels in these? They're pretty average-low-end on the smaller models, not so sure on the bigger.

They're also very, very overpriced. They sure are in a pretty enclosure, though.

[Barto]

Overpriced yeah. Low end? They're SIPS displays. Hardly low end.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by tensdanny38 Is Apple ever going to get new panels in these? They're pretty average-low-end on the smaller models, not so sure on the bigger.

What the heck are you talking about? The widescreen panels used by Apple and Dell are very good quality.

[Luca]

Originally Posted by windowsrookie No, I mean the "New" connector, that I stated above.

You didn't provide any evidence, though. Given the ultimate failure of ADC (despite it being a neat concept), I doubt Apple will venture in that direction again. In practice, ADC was a huge hassle because the connector itself was physically incompatible with DVI (required an adapter) and ADC displays can only be used without an adapter on machines specifically designed to feed the power to the display. That means a custom power supply, motherboard connector, AND video card.

ADC's one benefit is in how it unifies all those cables into a single cable. If you have to get an adapter to split the power and USB from the DVI, that defeats the purpose. And almost everyone will need such an adapter because there's no way to make any current or past Macs compatible with any potential new connector.

Originally Posted by Barto DisplayPort on the other hand uses a new packet based protocol and you won't see a cheap DVI adapter for it.

Ooh... I'm concerned this will allow a new type of monitor-based DRM. We know the entertainment industry is already willing to mess with our monitors through HDCP, imagine the implications for this! Scary.

Originally Posted by Barto Rebates don't count because... why exactly? The fact is if you were to buy an Apple 20" widescreen you'd be paying about 78% more than the Dell. Integrated speakers would be stupid. Who the hell would want a classy 20"+ display with tinny powerless distorted audio?

You are 110% correct here. Dell may not ALWAYS have a rebate running for the 20" display, but they usually do. Hence, you could say the price is 50-75% lower than the Apple display. Most people, unless they are extremely impatient, are willing to wait a few days on a major purchase like a 20" widescreen LCD in order for a rebate to roll around if there isn't one already active. That's pretty huge, and this isn't anything like Macs vs. PCs. I'd be willing to spend 50-75% more for a Mac than a similarly equipped Dell PC, just because Macs are better made, have better support, and run the Mac OS. But an LCD monitor? They're a lot simpler and there's less to go wrong, and a much lower chance of having to even deal with tech support. Furthermore, the primary component is exactly the same in each, and there's no difference in OS since it's just a monitor. Where's that extra 50-75% going again?

I'd actually encourage people to not buy an Apple display right now simply because it encourages them. Not that your single purchase will have any real bearing on Apple's pricing decisions, but their displays have yet again gone far too long without a price drop. Even if you're willing to spend the extra for the prettier design (the Apple display's only advantage), I still suggest waiting for a price drop merely on principle. Of course, that could be a really long time from now. Maybe they'll drop display prices once they update the Power Macs?

[Barto]

Originally Posted by Wikipedia DisplayPort includes optional DPCP (DisplayPort Content Protection) from Philips, which uses 128-bit Advanced Encryption Standard encryption, with secure modern ciphers. It also features full authentication and session key establishment (each encryption session is independent). There is an independent revocation system. This portion of the standard is licensed separately.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort

[ddrueckhammer]

According to TFT Central, the Apple 20" and Dell 2007WFP use the same panel - the 20" WS LG.Philips S-IPS (LM201W01).[/quote]

I stand corrected. I'm pretty sure in the past couple of years they used Samsung at some point. I read an interesting article at Anandtech about the Dell vs Apple displays. They like Apple's displays a lot for their aestetics, cable management etc but its hard to argue with getting the same display for $350 from Dell with rebates. Here is the link:

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2400

[beardedmacuser]

Originally Posted by Luca I'd actually encourage people to not buy an Apple display right now simply because it encourages them. Not that your single purchase will have any real bearing on Apple's pricing decisions, but their displays have yet again gone far too long without a price drop. Even if you're willing to spend the extra for the prettier design (the Apple display's only advantage), I still suggest waiting for a price drop merely on principle. Of course, that could be a really long time from now. Maybe they'll drop display prices once they update the Power Macs?

I agree with everything you're saying, it all makes sense. However I thought long and hard whether to buy a 20 inch display from Apple or Dell. In the end I really wasn't sure I could take staring at a Dell logo everyday; I would be constantly thinking "hmmm... an Apple Cinema Display with a shiny Apple logo would have looked better." So I bought the Apple display. It also helped that I could get the education price! Hopefully it will last me quite some time.