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Bin Laden's "October Surprise"?


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Bin Laden's "October Surprise"?
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Windswept
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Moderator's Pub
 
2004-10-29, 16:03

Well, there's a new tape of Bin Laden, apparently, that intelligence services have verified as current, and as authentically the man himself.

As I write, the translations are still being done, but CNN commentators are indicating that Bin Laden is saying 9/11 could have been much less damaging had Bush been more on top of things.

His comments sound like nothing so much as a Kerry campaign ad!!!

Tell me if you don't think so too, when you hear his remarks. From the little I've heard so far, it seems like a pretty amateurish attempt to influence our elections.

But my god. If Bin Laden is going to all this trouble to tell us how incompetent Bush is, obviously he wants Bush defeated. He wants Kerry as his preferred choice. Damnation. If Bin Laden wants to get rid of Bush so badly, it makes me want to vote for Bush, just to say "SCREW YOU, BIN LADEN!!!!!!" It's a pretty strong implication that the Bush administration has been very bad news for Bin Laden and his al-Qaeda wackos.


*sigh* .....just when I had moved from the "undecided" column into the Kerry column.

What an interesting development - to have such a tape appear at this particular time. Wonder if there's also a secret message in the tape for terrorists to implement plans that have been in the works for months/years?
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Akumulator
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Location: Atlanta
 
2004-10-29, 16:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol
*sigh* .....just when I had moved from the "undecided" column into the Kerry column.
What are you implying?
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Akumulator
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Join Date: May 2004
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2004-10-29, 16:22

I haven't seen this new tape.. but even though the CIA say's it's authentic, I'm not sure. From this image... I'm not sure this is bin Laden.


I'm may be wrong...I would have to see the video to tell.

EDIT: I just wouldn't be so fast as to label this as an ad for Kerry. Did you see the other video? The one of the American "terrorist"? You got to get past the fear and think if this is even a real threat or a political tool. I wouldn't be so fast as to call it authentic or let it pursuade my vote.

Last edited by Akumulator : 2004-10-29 at 16:27.
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Windswept
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2004-10-29, 16:24

That if Bin Laden would much rather have Kerry in office, it's obvious that he feels his life would be considerably easier under Kerry than under Bush.

I don't particularly want Bin Laden's life to be easier.

That's all I'm saying.
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Akumulator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2004-10-29, 16:29

So now you're not voting for Kerry because of what bin Laden says? Is that what you're saying? You know, if you're basically undecided up to this point and are pursuaded one way because of bin Laden... do yourself and everyone else a favor and don't vote.
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Naderfan
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2004-10-29, 16:37

But what if Bin Laden knows that Americans would vote for Bush just to stick it to him, and so he tries to make it sound like they should vote for Kerry because Bin Laden really wants Bush to remain President because Bush hasn't caught Bin Laden...

Or, what if Bin Laden doesn't give a damn who is president because these guys will always try to attack us no matter who is in office, Republican, Democrat, God, etc. They don't care if we come after them, because they are a like a hydra: cut off one head and two more grow in its place.

Honestly, I really don't think either candidate will influence al-Qaida or Bin Laden's mission or capabilities. These guys are clever and will find a way. Personally, I wouldn't let Bin Laden or any purpoted Bin Laden tapes influence your decision one way or the other. just my 2 cents
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2004-10-29, 16:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol
*sigh* .....just when I had moved from the "undecided" column...


I brought this up here months ago (maybe July or early August?) about, regarding Bush or Kerry, how anyone could truly be "undecided"? At this point? Not dinging Carol at all, but I just truly can't get my head around that notion.



Is there not enough of a record, a history, tons of coverage, debates, biographies, TV profiles, articles, books, appearances, long careers (four years as president, nearly 20 as Senator), past deeds and accomplishments, triumphs, failures, moments of greatness, gaffes, endorsements, scandals, voting records, stances on all the bread and butter issues, etc. on BOTH of these men for someone to have pretty much figured their way out months ago (or longer)?

One week out, what could there possibly be to be "undecided" about? I'll never understand that, I'm afraid.

Are people waiting to see if one of them farts on stage or accidentally utters the "n" word on live TV?



Again, not dinging you Carol. Please don't take it that way...I'm just perplexed in general, but you kinda triggered it with your statement.



I can understand if it were the Primaries and it was between Bush, Forbes and Kemp. Or Kerry, Edwards and Gephardt. But George Bush and John Kerry?!? There's not much similar, common ground between those two individuals.



Well, in any case...I've said my part and that's as close as I'll come to a political rant here.

Enjoy the thread!



And oh yeah...fuck Osama bin Laden. He'll get his, in the end.

Okay, now I'm done...

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2004-10-29 at 16:56.
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Hassan i Sabbah
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2004-10-29, 17:31

The election's George Bush's. Osama's motives are irrelevant. He just convinced every wavering voter in the country to vote for the Security President.

The rest of the world's got four more years of your President. Nice one Osama, you piece of shit.

gibberish
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LoCash
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2004-10-29, 17:32

You are dinging carol, scates. You're dinging all of those who are undecided, and Carol falls into that category. Just admit it, man

(and you use more smilies than she does!)

It is with great regret that we say our farewells to Jack, who passed away on May 28th, 2005. Jack, you will be missed by all

Superior thinking has always overwhelmed superior force. - Marine Corps Officers

"You don't lead by hitting people over the head-that's assault, not leadership." - General Eisenhower
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thegelding
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2004-10-29, 17:37

i don't know...i see it as bin laden wanting bush re-elected because bush will focus on iraq, then syria, then iran...the more muslim countries bush invades/attacks (especially where bin laden isn't hiding) the better for bin laden...he stays alive and gets lots of new recruits...kerry consistently says he will hunt down and kill bin laden since he attacked the USA and not Sadam...

so bin laden talks of hating bush knowing that some americans will then vote for bush...if bush wins i think bin laden would be very very happy

but just MHO

g

crazy is not a rare human condition

everything is food if you chew hard enough
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Hassan i Sabbah
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2004-10-29, 17:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol
That if Bin Laden would much rather have Kerry in office, it's obvious that he feels his life would be considerably easier under Kerry than under Bush.

I don't particularly want Bin Laden's life to be easier.

That's all I'm saying.
Oh for Heaven's sake.

George Bush has done more to stoke up resentment in the Islamic world than bin Laden could have dreamed of. Osama wants Bush in power; they're both millenarian nutjobs and Bush's foreign policy lets Osama say "You see?" Best recruitment officer he could wish for.

Osama needs George Bush to keep his millenarian fantasies alive. The last thing he needs is a President whose policy is informed by pragmatism and consensus rather than ideology.

It's obvious that it doesn't matter who the American President is, both Bush or Kerry would dearly love to see the man dead. Bin Laden can't wait to be martyred. He wants Bush because with every innocent killed in Iraq, and now Iran and Syria when Bush wins on Tuesday as he without doubt will, his impossible dream of a huge Islamic state that ignores borders and ethnicities looks more possible.

gibberish
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Escher
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Washington, DC
 
2004-10-29, 18:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol
*sigh* .....just when I had moved from the "undecided" column into the Kerry column.
Carol: Glad to hear you were moving in the right direction.

Seriously, Osama is going to stay a crazy old bastard regardless of who wins the US presidential election. OTOH, you have the power to vote out the crazy bastard who's been (mis-) leading this country for four years.

The decision is in your hands, Carol! Not Osama's.

I can't vote here in the US. So do it for me, please.

Escher

I've been waiting for a true sub-PowerBook for more than 10 years. The 11-inch MacBook Air finally delivers on all counts! It beats the hell out of both my PowerBook 2400c and my 12-inch PowerBook G4 -- no contest whatsoever.
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Escher
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2004-10-29, 18:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah
George Bush has done more to stoke up resentment in the Islamic world than bin Laden could have dreamed of. Osama wants Bush in power; they're both millenarian nutjobs and Bush's foreign policy lets Osama say "You see?" Best recruitment officer he could wish for.
All too true, Hassan. But don't give up on this election so easily. It's not a lost cause, by far. I'm cautiously optimistic and think that Kerry will win. At least the residents of Washington, DC are ready to send Bush back to Texas. I can't stand the thought that the sucker lives four miles from my house and I can't even vote him out of office.

Allons enfants de la patrie...

Escher

I've been waiting for a true sub-PowerBook for more than 10 years. The 11-inch MacBook Air finally delivers on all counts! It beats the hell out of both my PowerBook 2400c and my 12-inch PowerBook G4 -- no contest whatsoever.
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Luca
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2004-10-29, 18:16

There's always the slight possibility that this is a ploy by the Bush Administration to get people like you, Carol, to vote for him. I'm sure Bush would be able to do this if he wanted to. I'm not saying he did, but he certainly could. Could Kerry get someone in the CIA to claim that these are current and valid? I don't know. But Bush could.
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autodata
hustlin
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-10-29, 18:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol
That if Bin Laden would much rather have Kerry in office, it's obvious that he feels his life would be considerably easier under Kerry than under Bush.
Well, when Iran endorsed bush everyone said take it with a grain of salt.

I guess we should all just throw logic out the door. After all, it's not just politics, it's Bush administration politics!
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autodata
hustlin
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-10-29, 18:20

BTW, I'm so sure that Osama wouldn't have any stategic thinking whatsoever.

To be honest, I don't even know what he said, and I don't care until next wednesday. This is the weekend where everyone becomes completely FOS and simple logic ceases to exist for a short time. Of course, the Bush suckers started earlier this week with their performance of "1001 Contradictory Excuses."
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Moogs
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2004-10-29, 18:23

Carol you know I love ya but you're being a little irrational here.

If you read some of the other excerpts he explicitly states to American citizens that our security is not tied to "Kerry, Bush or Al Qaeda"... that it's tied to our blind-eye Israeli policies (in short).

As usual, Israel is the third rail no one wants to acknowledge or talk about (meaning the media, not you specifically Carol).

Vote for whichever man strikes you as more intelligent and qualified for the job based on how whichever papers you read, whichever debates you saw, and on what you've seen the last four years. Screw Bin Laden and his tape.

He's hoping people will have these kinds of reaction I'm sure... nothing would please him more than to get in our heads and question our votes, etc.

...into the light of a dark black night.
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Windswept
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Join Date: May 2004
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2004-10-29, 18:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akumulator
So now you're not voting for Kerry because of what bin Laden says? Is that what you're saying? You know, if you're basically undecided up to this point and are pursuaded one way because of bin Laden... do yourself and everyone else a favor and don't vote.
pscates and akumulator:

I don't like either political party. I think our political system, as it currently functions, is essentially incapable of producing truly enlightened candidates. Part of this could be helped by campaign-finance reform and the removal of special-interest influence. Part might be helped by having university curricula, in a few major academic institutions, designed specifically for graduate students (and others) aspiring to high political office. Perhaps I will start a thread about what such a curriculum might include, so I won't do that here.

I don't like Bush as president and never did. He is a classic case of someone with a "C-student" intellect being pushed into high political office. I despise the Republicans for so cynically selecting him as a candidate for the 2000 election. I wasn't crazy about Gore either. Way too namby-pamby. I voted for Gore though.

I will be voting for Kerry, because I am so sick of the way things are now. I despise how the Republicans so blatantly cater to big business, and sell out our environment so rich people can get richer.

I don't like how Democrats tend to coddle people and enable them to get on/stay on welfare. I don't like American taxpayers paying for the education and medical care of millions of illegals from countries where governments are essentially corrupt and have little concern for their own citizens. I don't like socialist/liberal systems like in Britain, where SO many people seem to abuse the welfare system for all it's worth and become career leeches and parasites. I don't want the Democrats producing such a system here.

But I also hated the way Saddam Hussein spent 12 years playing games with the United Nations' inspection mandates, and using oil-for-food money to build more palaces. He was the wily, carnival con-artist; the United Nations the gullible sucker, playing by the rules and losing every game. Trying to get anything accomplished through the auspices of the United Nations seems like 'mission impossible'. Kerry was against the war in Vietnam, but I think the rigorous military training he had to have undergone tips the balance in his favor. Anyone who gets through that training has to be a pretty amazing person.

So, what I'm saying is that I have had mixed emotions about all this, and that's why I have been undecided. I have a few strongly conservative views, and a few strongly liberal views (environment!!!), which gives me plenty to think about and weigh in the balance.

I am a registered Democrat.

Last edited by Windswept : 2004-10-29 at 23:27.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2004-10-29, 18:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCash
You are dinging carol, scates. You're dinging all of those who are undecided, and Carol falls into that category. Just admit it, man

(and you use more smilies than she does!)
Okay, fine. I guess I'm "dinging" her. But not in any malicious, jerky way...I'm genuinely always astounded by the "undecideds", that's all.

Better? Sue me.



And by the way, some of you - Luca especially, with his Moore-esque ponderings - are completely nuts. Me don't ever wanna live inside your heads...woo-woo-woo-woo!



...and thanks for not tearing my head off, Carol. You're nicer than many.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2004-10-29 at 18:52.
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torifile
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2004-10-29, 19:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol
That if Bin Laden would much rather have Kerry in office, it's obvious that he feels his life would be considerably easier under Kerry than under Bush.

I don't particularly want Bin Laden's life to be easier.

That's all I'm saying.
Carol, and others:

Don't you think there might be some truth to Bin Laden's assertions that there would have been less damage if Bush had been more decisive at the beginning? Don't you also think that he may be providing some insight into his and his supporters' motivations? I know a lot of people who hate bin Laden and what he's done but sympathize with him because he's right about what the US has done to the Mid-East. I firmly believe that if these new imperialists weren't in office now, Al-Qaeda would be struggling to recruit right now.

The kids in the Mid-East love America and the American Ideal but they can't help but see the way they treat the Muslim world.

Vote for someone who won't cause more hatred of the US. Bush is the most divisive man I've ever seen in a public office. It's time to get rid of him and start the healing of this country.
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Windswept
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2004-10-29, 19:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0
Okay, fine. I guess I'm "dinging" her. But not in any malicious, jerky way...I'm genuinely always astounded at the undecideds, that's all.

Better? Sue me.



And by the way, you people - Luca especially, in his Moore-esque ponderings - are completely nuts.

When time permits, I generally take ages to make major decisions, Paul. Our nation is divided in half right now...maybe 110 million voters for Bush, 110 million for Kerry. Surely it shouldn't be surprising - with such a division - that there *are* some good arguments on both sides...that a person who does, in fact, have beliefs on 'both' sides of the aisle (as I do) might have to do some serious weighing of the pro's and con's.

Here's the thing, Bush 'himself' has remarkable deficiencies wrt intellectual curiosity and the ability to have and express thoughts. But those voting for him are actually voting as well for other, brighter, more articulate members of a Republican cabinet/and or administration.

Republicans are traditionally quite well-organized in getting stuff done, whereas Democrats seem to scatter their energies and trip over their own feet. Since the decision was made to go to war, the war should have been conducted in an organized, effective way. But instead it is an incredible screw-up. So, the Republicans have lost their credibility wrt being organized and effective. If they do things in as screwed-up a way as the Democrats, we might as well *have* the Democrats, who are generally nicer people, when all is said and done. heh

We need a president who, himself, has beliefs on both sides of the aisle. McCain is a Republican, but is for campaign finance reform. Perfect example. But Republican movers and shakers couldn't possibly have a person with views on both sides of the aisle (like McCain) become president. So we got Bush (who had few views of his *own* about anything), as most likely to appeal to far-right Christians, the Bible belt, big business, etc. Plus, his *dad* had been president: looks good on the resume under the 'family background' heading. And oh, no blue-dress problems likely to occur here...ergo: perfect candidate.

*sigh*

Last edited by Windswept : 2004-10-29 at 23:30.
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Windswept
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2004-10-29, 19:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0
...and thanks for not tearing my head off, Carol. You're nicer than many.
Heh.

Paul, you should see the paragraph I deleted.

hahahahahaha

(But it was directed at Akumulator. )

Before posting it, I reminded myself that: I 'am', after all, a mod....and asked myself if I really should be posting such naughty words and mean-spirited rejoinders? So, I took out that paragraph, and *saved* it, with the thought that I could always put it back in later.

I'm glad I left it out. But I'm not nearly as nice as I might seem. haha
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2004-10-29, 19:40

Carol, I don't believe - or agree with - anything you just wrote.

I'm sorry, but it's just true.

But hey, that's the great thing about living here: we all get to have our say and do our part, come election day. That's how it should be, right?

(I'm gonna let that silly little comment you made about Democrats being "nicer people" slide...it's Friday, after all, and I have to allow for the possibility you've been drinking a bit).

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autodata
hustlin
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-10-29, 19:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol
McCain is a Republican, but is for campaign finance reform. Perfect example.
I still don't get why republicans haven't figured out that they could so easily win with someone like McCain rather than the loonies that make up the Bush administration. Don't they realize how many people support McCain and feel that he has integrity?!?!
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torifile
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2004-10-29, 20:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by autodata
I still don't get why republicans haven't figured out that they could so easily win with someone like McCain rather than the loonies that make up the Bush administration. Don't they realize how many people support McCain and feel that he has integrity?!?!
I'd maybe have voted for McCain. A politician I can respect. Even if I didn't vote for him in a hypothetical election, I'd have a much harder time choosing between him and the other candidate.

But the neo-cons WANT a puppet in charge. It's easier, I suspect, to tell Bush what to think than it would have been to do the same to McCain.
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drewprops
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2004-10-29, 20:46

Carol, vote for the candidate you feel is best..... this is the same bunch of guys who have nothing better to do than gossip about teeny bopper Ashlee Simpson all day long....

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
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Luca
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2004-10-29, 21:32

pscates, I'm not a loony. I merely entertained the possibility that this was somehow planned, at least in part, by the Bush administration. I personally don't think it was, but it's possible.

But here's what I think, and it's the honest truth. I think Bush and his gang are sneaky, secretive, and immoral, and they will stop at nothing to ensure that they stay in power regardless of what happens. They are neoconservatives, imperialists, who care nothing for the long-term future of our country as long as they ensure that the rest of their own lives are comfortable and they retain as much power as possible. Historically, empires fall. They know their history. Build an empire now, reap the benefits, die rich and happy, and leave any problems you create to future generations. That is exactly what the neoconservative offshoot of the Republican party is trying to do.

I don't think that Republicans are imperialists, or bad people. I also don't think that Democrats are communists, as some far right-wingers would have you believe. I think that in their purest form, both liberals and conservative have excellent ideas for how to run our nation. One isn't "better" than they other, they are just different. And I think that the neocons do not stick to either ideal. They simply crave power and make sure that they get as much as possible and keep it as long as possible.

So my problem is not with you, scates, or most other conservatives. It's with the neoconservative movement. I have mixed feelings on Moore... sometimes he gets on my nerves, and other times he seems like one of the most patriotic guys in this whole damn country. He certainly seems to want to uphold American values like freedom of speech and accountability of government.
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Windswept
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2004-10-29, 21:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0
Carol, I don't believe - or agree with - anything you just wrote.

I'm sorry, but it's just true.

But hey, that's the great thing about living here: we all get to have our say and do our part, come election day. That's how it should be, right?
Okay, Paul, why not tell me 'what' you believe - five or ten points? Or maybe direct me to a thread in which you have already laid out such a tidy list of opinions? Considering that I have conservative *and* liberal views, we 'must' share at least a few in common. It would be nice to know what those are.

Quote:
(I'm gonna let that silly little comment you made about Democrats being "nicer people" slide...it's Friday, after all, and I have to allow for the possibility you've been drinking a bit).
Well, I *hadn't* been drinking, Paul. But it's beginning to sound like a wonderful plan. heh.

You must acknowledge that Democrats are less judgmental, less up-tight, more "live and let live" than Republicans. Tell me you know these things to be true. I mean, just think of all those holier-than-thou types, who do a lot of church-going and eye-brow-raising at the way the rest of us lead our lives. Tsk.

Hey, Paul...wouldn't it be fun to drop in at that coffeehouse you mentioned, and listen to the surrounding conversation, like you did the other day?

Btw, I know some *very* nice Republicans.
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Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-10-29, 21:38

pscates, it's simple. We undecided voters simply don't see a good choice between the two pre-manufactured candidates we've been given.

Kerry has good points, and bad.

Bush has good points (eek) and bad.

I think Bush's foreign and environmental policies have been disastrous. I think Kerry's domestic economic and health care policies will be equally so.

It's not clear cut by any means for those of us who are fiscal conservatives and social liberals, sorry. Kerry is a small step away from a socialist, which I can't stand, by any means. Bush is a fundie with wacky views of foreign policy. Can't stand that either. Personally I'm fed up with the so-called 'choices' we're given.

There are a lot of undecideds, still at this late hour, and many many more who have only made up their minds in the past week, mostly due to just wanting it to be over, I believe. I can't imagine endorsing either candidate.

It's sad, but our system truly has finally become the lesser of two evils, and I can't see it ever getting better without a radical change to how we select our representatives: ranked voting. Eliminate the power of the parties at one shot. (Which means it would never get passed anywhere...)
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AirSluf
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2004-10-29, 21:43

......

Last edited by AirSluf : 2004-11-15 at 23:56.
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