[Anthem]

So that was a bummer of a keynote.

Nice if you like iMacs, I guess, but pretty sad if you're a fan of non-AIOs. Really downplayed the mini, and it doesn't let me hold out much hope for a midrange headless.

[Brad]

Speculation and Rumors for talk about a past Apple event? I think not. Moving...

[BuonRotto]

How long are people going to hope against hope? Steve is sold in the all-in-one. Always has been. not saying a headless mid-range Mac won't come to be again, but the AIO is where Steve's heart is. Not sure what's so terrible about the iMac AIO design though. I mean, I doubt Apple will ever offer a headless Mac where you swap components willy nilly a la the ATX cases. Given that, I don't see why anyone would turn down the new iMac. If you think Apple will ever let people do that outside of the Mac Pro, well, at some point I think you'll have to stop holding your breath.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Anthem it doesn't let me hold out much hope for a midrange headless.

Quel surprise!

I know a lot of people want a headless mid-range Mac. But instead of constantly dreaming up that it's going to come out any! day! now!, then being let down as event after event passes and nothing changes, a little bit of perspective might be worthwhile, and, perhaps, acceptance that Apple won't provide everything to everyone. (When they had tons of models in the 1990s, that wasn't the smartest thing either.)

I'm really not against Apple enhancing its product line a little, especially now that they've grown so far in revenues, profits, market cap and (often overlooked) their now massive reserves. I might also indeed be for the market for such a Mac, if only to have something to heavily tinker around with). But I think expecting it to happen sooner or later is, if nothing else, a surefire way to get disappointed over and over again.

And be honest: when Apple does introduce one, there'll be complaints all over the place about how it's too expensive, or too underspecced, or still not customizable enough. Or how you want it without iWork but with iLife, or with 10.4 instead of 10.5.

[RobM]

I agree chucker - I've been awaiting and awaiting, but the grim realisation is - they just ain't going to do it.

Well, I guess the way round it is to homebrew - hackintosh for me.

[Matsu]

When first launched, AIO displays were bulky, yet tiny, and costly yet sucky. Sure, they were OK for their time, but really, it was too easy to wish for better in the flickering, retina searing madness of CRT based display tech. Then early LCDs offered some reprieve, but were still compromised solutions -- color accuracy, viewing angle, refresh rate -- and small for the price too. What did the first 15" LCD iMac (G4) cost? 1799?

Today we have fantastic displays at ever falling prices and growing sizes. By the time you upgrade your iMac at the current rate, you may as well take a nice new display with it, 3 or 4 years from now, 24" may be the smallest you can get...

I used to rail against the AIO, but it's really coming of age. Cost was always the issue. I'm not sure I want to pay 2K for an iMac from which nothing carries over, but 1199? Doesn't look so bad.

[thegeriatric]

Originally Posted by chucker Quel surprise! I know a lot of people want a headless mid-range Mac. But instead of constantly dreaming up that it's going to come out any! day! now!, then being let down as event after event passes and nothing changes, a little bit of perspective might be worthwhile, and, perhaps, acceptance that Apple won't provide everything to everyone. (When they had tons of models in the 1990s, that wasn't the smartest thing either.) I'm really not against Apple enhancing its product line a little, especially now that they've grown so far in revenues, profits, market cap and (often overlooked) their now massive reserves. I might also indeed be for the market for such a Mac, if only to have something to heavily tinker around with). But I think expecting it to happen sooner or later is, if nothing else, a surefire way to get disappointed over and over again. And be honest: when Apple does introduce one, there'll be complaints all over the place about how it's too expensive, or too underspecced, or still not customizable enough. Or how you want it without iWork but with iLife, or with 10.4 instead of 10.5.

Sad but true.

Originally Posted by RobM I agree chucker - I've been awaiting and awaiting, but the grim realisation is - they just ain't going to do it. Well, I guess the way round it is to homebrew - hackintosh for me.

Might be worth thinking about.

Originally Posted by Matsu When first launched, AIO displays were bulky, yet tiny, and costly yet sucky. Sure, they were OK for their time, but really, it was too easy to wish for better in the flickering, retina searing madness of CRT based display tech. Then early LCDs offered some reprieve, but were still compromised solutions -- color accuracy, viewing angle, refresh rate -- and small for the price too. What did the first 15" LCD iMac (G4) cost? 1799? Today we have fantastic displays at ever falling prices and growing sizes. By the time you upgrade your iMac at the current rate, you may as well take a nice new display with it, 3 or 4 years from now, 24" may be the smallest you can get... I used to rail against the AIO, but it's really coming of age. Cost was always the issue. I'm not sure I want to pay 2K for an iMac from which nothing carries over, but 1199? Doesn't look so bad.

Must admit I'm mighty tempted, with this latest release.

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by Matsu When first launched, AIO displays were bulky, yet tiny, and costly yet sucky. Sure, they were OK for their time, but really, it was too easy to wish for better in the flickering, retina searing madness of CRT based display tech. Then early LCDs offered some reprieve, but were still compromised solutions -- color accuracy, viewing angle, refresh rate -- and small for the price too. What did the first 15" LCD iMac (G4) cost? 1799? Today we have fantastic displays at ever falling prices and growing sizes. By the time you upgrade your iMac at the current rate, you may as well take a nice new display with it, 3 or 4 years from now, 24" may be the smallest you can get... I used to rail against the AIO, but it's really coming of age. Cost was always the issue. I'm not sure I want to pay 2K for an iMac from which nothing carries over, but 1199? Doesn't look so bad.

If you start from a vacuum with no computer or accessories, 1199 doesn't look so bad. If you are going to use many of iMac's features, and lots of processor power which it has in spades, 1199 doesn't look so bad.

I'm in the market for an iMac for my folks but any new model is incredible overkill for checking e-mail and surfing the web. (When I bring the subject up and tell them they could have a much more responsive machine that was also easier on the eyes, they say they're relatively happy with their G3 iBook.) I'd be happy to buy a new iMac instead of used to get a warranty and avoid hassle, but there's no way I'm paying a grand for one. Integrated graphics, slow components all around, 17" screen would be fine by me.

And I have been willing to buy a Mac with good graphics for years because I like games and a combined productivity+gaming box would be both cost effective and neat. Since no such thing has been available, when I have upgraded I have bought a Mac laptop. Generally the cheapest I can get, since power goes to waste when the lack of graphics makes gaming impossible. I also have a 24" flatscreen. So in this situation, I can get a screaming fast Windows box (1k€) with upgradeable parts for future performance and storage space, or a graphics crippled iMac (1.5k€) I do not have desk space for and which doesn't do anything productive that my laptop does not also do.

[Matsu]

Why do you have a spare 24" flat screen? Was it part of another purchase, and why are you ridding yourself of that computer so soon?

Displays are more expensive today than they will be tomorrow. Just think of how cheap they're becoming. 3-4 years out from now, you won't be looking so hard to re-use even that 24" display. You might keep it as a secondary display, but that's it. Apple's displays are amongst the most expensive out there, and still they're 1/3rd to 1/2 what they cost only a couple of years ago. Apple's largest have in fact always debuted with a competitive price, where the low end of monitors has fallen so far, that Apple drops it altogether rather than compete there. Maybe it doesn't make sense for you, 'cause you paid a fair penny for that display, I get that, but it's a situation that's less and less likely to repeat itself. Just sit at a 30" monitor to see what I mean. You get a practical limit for a desktop workspace. Once there, the only thing left is for prices to fall, rapidly so... That too will be reflected in future iMac offerings. If Apple could have built the current 1199 machine back in the day when the first 22" Cinema display rolled off the line it would have cost, I'm not sure, say $4-5000...

In a nutshell, as display prices fall, AIOs make more and more sense.

However, I feel your pain. The Mac mini already has no place. Apple could have used some of those dirt cheap 17" panels to make a $799 iMac that would be perfect for folks like your parents. Make a nice profit on it, and likely sellmany more of those than they ever will minis...

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by Matsu Why do you have a spare 24" flat screen? Was it part of another purchase, and why are you ridding yourself of that computer so soon?

Spare? It's the only display I have been using for over two years. It first served as the display for my iBook. (Yes, they could do 1920x1200.) Now it's the display for my semi-permanently clamshelled Macbook. It's because Apple doesn't have a decent desktop that my desktop is a low-end OS X laptop and a great screen, mouse and keyboard.

The screen has also been in game console use all along, and has accommodated an occasional extra computer or console now and then when friends bring them over.

I have small living quarters, and it works well for me that everything comes out this one display. 24" has been a decent size both for desktop work sitting down and for watching DVD's or playing games from the couch.

In the long run separate components tend to save you a great deal. Had I sold off my iBook and picked up the first 20" iMac G5 instead of this beautiful screen, I'd have a way worse screen attached to an outdated computer, would probably have a TV cluttering my place and not doing as good a job showing game console output.. etc.

It turned out like that with my previous display, too. I bought the first 19" CRT that was out to market, and it cost a lot, but it served me with four subsequent computers so it didn't actually cost any more than always buying a poor display with a new computer - as many people seem to do even when the display is separate.

Macbook has lots of "extra" power in addition to what I need for websurfing, communication, terminal work and the like, so I won't need to buy anything Apple for myself for years to come. I will probably build a gaming PC in fall, it'll plug in right next to the Macbook and I get both play and work done with little compromise.

3-4 years out from now, you won't be looking so hard to re-use even that 24" display. You might keep it as a secondary display, but that's it.

Then I'd have gotten six years of use out of it, used it with ~4 computers and ~2 game consoles overall plus some miscellaneous use... sounds very much like what I was thinking when I bought it.

Maybe it doesn't make sense for you, 'cause you paid a fair penny for that display, I get that, but it's a situation that's less and less likely to repeat itself. Just sit at a 30" monitor to see what I mean. You get a practical limit for a desktop workspace. Once there, the only thing left is for prices to fall, rapidly so... That too will be reflected in future iMac offerings.

What happens when displays are fully commodified is an interesting question. After the current tech commodifies, there's still resolution, contrast etc. that new display technologies will improve. Even after that progress slows down and big, good displays are cheap, why would you sprinkle large displays all over when you can only look at one at a time and the displays, being large, take lots of space? Instead, you'll want to be able to use all your devices from everywhere it makes sense to do it. Modularity and interoperability, not AIO. AIO is really a solution to the problem of cabling. Its demand will die down as high-speed wireless replaces wires and interior design does a better job of providing ubiquituous power one way or the other.

[Matsu]

4 computers and 2 consoles over 6 years... at a new machine every 18 months, you're buying too many computers! You haven't "saved" anything...

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by Matsu 4 computers and 2 consoles over 6 years... at a new machine every 18 months, you're buying too many computers! You haven't "saved" anything...

Well, I had the iBook for a period of time before I bought the display. Then, I sold it and bought a used Macbook, which cost ~300€ over what I got from the iBook. I'm probably going to buy a PC. I'm assuming there'll be one computer and one console plugged in the display in the next two years I don't know about yet. Maybe something new, maybe something old. Maybe I'll just plug in an old wreck of a PC I have standing in the corner. Overall, we're talking roughly about 2 new cheap or average machines worth of expense in six years, or one per three years. Less than most people spend.

Not to mention 2/3 of the cost of the display came from the difference when I sold a 15" Powerbook and replaced it with the iBook. More mobility, huge desktop space, no need for a separate TV, teh win.

[Moogs]

If the next generation of CPUs (Penryn) for servers generates significantly less heat, apple might be able to keep the current level of expandability and storage options, while reducing the chassis at the same time, by reducing the size of the heat sink and fan systems. But I doubt that Apple will ever give up on the tower. That would suck if they did. Professional users need to be able to get in there and swap drives, video cards, add ports, etc... quickly and easily.

[Luca]

The problem with the "headless Mac" pipe dream that so many cling to is that even if Apple does it (which they won't), it'll be kinda bad anyway. Like Chucker said, it'll probably be too expensive for what you get, and kind of underspecced in at least one or two ways, and crippled in such a way that upgrades are just not quite as easy as they should be.

The fact of the matter is that Apple lost the desktop war long ago. Dell, HP, Gateway, and other budget-box makers have taken over. Honestly, how can Apple hope to compete against bottom-range $300 desktops (including keyboard, monitor, and mouse)? They simply can't, and they'll never be able to. If they released a $300 Mini, it would lose money (just like all those other companies' $300 computers).

If you want a customizable computer where you can spend exactly as much as you want on each component and no more, and configure it just how you like it, your only real option is a Linux box. Make it yourself. Maybe even figure out how to hack OS X onto there (I know it can be done, it's just not easy). That'll be everything you want about the headless Mac, minus the Mac part of it. If you are absolutely convinced that you need a customizable headless Mac and you also need OS X, you'll have to make a decision, because you'll never have both in the same package. Ever. Learn to live with another OS, or re-evaluate whether you really need a fully customizable computer.

[Kickaha]

All-in-ones will be the wave of the future from Apple, right up until the moment they unveil remote access terminals.

Buy an AIO for the main machine, and then a fleet of handheld/minitablet access units. Which really, are just tiny AIOs...

OMG! AIOs are the wave of the future!!!

[kretara]

<RANT>
I am an avowed AIO hater. I just don't get why people are so happy to pay good money for a product that limits what they can do with their computer so severly?

I have been waiting for a reasonably priced tower from Apple for years and I have given up hope.
At the moment, Apple has absolutely nothing (affordable) that interests me.

I am using a G4 1.25 17" iMac at the moment (I got it for something like $100 -- all it needed was a HD -- and I sold my towers and my Mini for a very hefty profit) as my main desktop and I can't tell you how much I HATE having to turn on my 4 firewire HD's (which normally would stay on, but I don't like using the iMac so I turn them off for lack of use) and log into this thing. Yippie for only being able to hold 1 HD in a desktop. I find myself avoiding the use of my iMac because it just does not fit my needs and is so frigging limiting.

The old G4 towers are just not powerful enough any more, I'm just not happy with a G5 PM (been there, done that...too many problems plus orphaned technology) and the Intel towers are way to expensive.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. I'm moving most of my desktop work to Linux. Why, because I can get a smaller tower that can hold 4 HD's and is reasonably modern and I am not STUCK with a monitor that I can't replace at need. Sure the OS is not OS X (really, much inferior to OS X), but still much better than using Windows.
I have moved from 4 OS X machines and 1 Linux laptop to 1 PowerBook, 1 iMac G4 (which will be sold once I move my firewire HD's over to my Linux boxes) and 3 Linux boxes.

</RANT>

[Matsu]

If you like to tinker, and buy and sell stuff all the time, yay on ya... But for a lot of people it just isn't worth the time and effort. You could buy an 1199 iMac, and probably still get 300 bucks for it after 4 years or so of use. Then you could spend around 1K on a new machine... it doesn't all even out, but it comes closer than you think... and that's before you decide if your time's worth anything to you...

The storage thing can be frustrating, but they've got FW800 on there now, which is pretty fast. The only thing they really got wrong, IMHO, was not including an expresscard slot for REALLY FAST external solutions. There's some nice FW 800 dual drive enclosures now with enough capacity to keep you in good stead overthe life of the machine, and then some...

[chucker]

Originally Posted by kretara <RANT> I am an avowed AIO hater. I just don't get why people are so happy to pay good money for a product that limits what they can do with their computer so severly?

http://images.apple.com/imac/images/...4_20070807.jpg demonstrates the answer to that beautifully.

Less is more. "limiting what one can do" can be something positive. That's not marketing spin; it's a long-known paradox that has to do with how the human brain works. You feed it with too many options, choices, alternatives, decisions to make? It breaks down, feels overwhelmed, gives up, and is likely to make the wrong choice. It's for the same reason that having too many preferences in an application is awful UI design (see also, say, Spolsky's "Choices = Headaches").

Guess what? Some people, most people in fact, just want to unpack, plug in, and get to friggin' work. They don't want to install drivers, choose between 27 different devices who are all ultimately the same anyway and learn cryptic jargon that has nothing to do with their respect careers and interests.

Why, because I can get a smaller tower that can hold 4 HD's and is reasonably modern and I am not STUCK with a monitor that I can't replace at need.

Right. I find myself adding countless hard drives all the time, and I go through screens faster than WR through gadgets!

Not. And neither do the vast, overwhelming majority of other computer users.

All-In-Ones aren't for everyone. But most people who don't buy them would, in fact, paradoxically enough be better off with them, because they could focus on the things that are far more important to them.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by kretara I am using a G4 1.25 17" iMac at the moment (I got it for something like $100 -- all it needed was a HD -- and I sold my towers and my Mini for a very hefty profit) as my main desktop and I can't tell you how much I HATE having to turn on my 4 firewire HD's (which normally would stay on, but I don't like using the iMac so I turn them off for lack of use) and log into this thing. Yippie for only being able to hold 1 HD in a desktop. I find myself avoiding the use of my iMac because it just does not fit my needs and is so frigging limiting.

Er... put them all on a power strip. One switch turns on the computer, and all the drives. Done!

Seriously, I've never understood the fetish of having all the drives in one box, unless you're carting that box around on a regular basis.

I mean hell, I have a G4 Cube as my home server, and a couple of mondo drives hanging off of it via FW. I turn those drives off and on about as often as I do the Cube, which is once every few *months*. I can't say that it's particularly burdensome.

Go with whatever works for you, but... scotch argentinian slow-slow-quick-quick??

And yes, I am completely aware that the "just hook drives into it" is utterly at odds with the clean, cable-free aesthetic that Apple pushes. I see that aesthetic as a means to an end (simplicity of function) rather than an end in and of itself. I'll add cables and boxes as I need to, to provide additional functionality. That, I don't have a problem with. Having a rats nest of wires to do *basic* functionality though, seems silly.

[autodata]

Originally Posted by kretara I just don't get why people are so happy to pay good money for a product that limits what they can do with their computer so severly?

A couple reasons IMO: a) hardware limitations (processor speed, HD space, etc) don't have as much of an observable impact on everyday computing as they did 5+ years ago and b) most people, particularly mac users, don't want to have to fuck around about the specifics of their hardware. It's a problem for people who want to customize all of their hardware, but for people who want to buy a computer that just works without them screwing around with the hardware, the current direction is a great one. The Apple philosophy is very explicitly in support of hiding hardware as much as possible and, when not possible (notable, with RAM), provide as simple an interface as possible.

Personally, one of the reasons I buy Apple is because I offload the annoying hardware decisions on to them, reasonably confident that I can trust them to usually do a relatively good job (at least consistently better than most vendors), so I can spend my time doing other, more interesting stuff. If I'm putting together a more specialized machine, chances are I'll be running linux on it, anyway, and most exceptions would be taken care of with a mini.

[Taskiss]

The industry recently produced more laptops than desktops.

Laptops are the wave of the future. I've been given laptops instead of desktops at work for several years now.

Some companies are already seeing this shift happen more drastically than others. During Apple's first quarter 2007 earnings call, the company revealed that its notebook sales shot through the roof with a 65 percent increase in year-over-year sales. On the flipside, desktop sales were in fact down by four percent during that same time period.

[zippy]

Which is really funny, because notebooks are even more AIO than the iMac.

I would love to see a mid-range, headless Mac, and have argued for this before. But, I also don't really think one is needed by any but a relatively small subset of potential purchasers. I think there are a whole ton more who think they need it, or who simply want it. For that reason alone, I think there is a market.

I would love to have an office wide solution of iMacs. Very simple to implement, clean and space efficient. Once in a while, you might have to swap out a 'whole machine' for something minor like a bad monitor, or drive, but even swapping out a whole iMac would be easier than swapping out a hard-drive on a tower. Ahh, the stuff of dreams...

[rasmits]

I think I've come to accept that the closest we'll ever come to a mid-range headless is a used Mac Pro on ebay.

That is what a mid-range headless would be anyway, right? Yesterday's Mac Pro parts.

[RobM]

Originally Posted by zippy Which is really funny, because notebooks are even more AIO than the iMac. I would love to see a mid-range, headless Mac, and have argued for this before. But, I also don't really think one is needed by any but a relatively small subset of potential purchasers. I think there are a whole ton more who think they need it, or who simply want it. For that reason alone, I think there is a market. I would love to have an office wide solution of iMacs. Very simple to implement, clean and space efficient. Once in a while, you might have to swap out a 'whole machine' for something minor like a bad monitor, or drive, but even swapping out a whole iMac would be easier than swapping out a hard-drive on a tower. Ahh, the stuff of dreams...

As far as wanting is concerned I'd say there's a bazillion peeps who want a stylish media server. (I'll build my own now. thanks Apple :-0)
Just have to find the right looking case - easier said than done ...

Swapping out a drive in the Mac Pro doesn't get much easier. Pop the side panel - pull a sled out. undo 4 screws. Slap the new drive in. Tighten screws. Slide back in. No fuss, no trouble.

[Eugene]

I still think it's inevitable. As the Mac Pro's price continues to creep upward, and as it scales into the extreme high-end thanks to the multi-core design philosophy, there will be a gaping hole between the iMac and the Mac Pro.

[thegeriatric]

Originally Posted by Eugene I still think it's inevitable. As the Mac Pro's price continues to creep upward, and as it scales into the extreme high-end thanks to the multi-core design philosophy, there will be a gaping hole between the iMac and the Mac Pro.

One lives in hope.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by chucker http://images.apple.com/imac/images/...4_20070807.jpg demonstrates the answer to that beautifully.

If I want to add a HDD to the iMac, that's another cable (or two). Speakers that don't suck? 3-4 more cables. Something like a Hauppage TV tuner? I'd need an external EyeTV or similar... You're not really limiting the expansion of the computer...you're just forcing people who do expand to use the dreaded cable/external option. When I outgrow my Mac, I'd like the option of taking my monitor with me.

[Satchmo]

Isn't the solution simply a compromise? By that I mean, just make the iMac in it's current AIO form factor more user accessible. Undo a few screws and open the back like the first gen G5 iMacs.

No, you won't be able to have 4 drive bays, but it'll give a bit more upgradability and longevity to the AIO (which is probably why Apple doesn't want to open it up). This way, you can have the latest optical drive, larger HD, and perhaps even a replaceable graphics card. Okay, I'm getting carried away now.

[torifile]

Oh, fer chrissakes! The vast majority of users don't have *any* desire to upgrade their graphics card or optical drive. *Most* people want to get home and plug the computer in and go. I'd venture to say that most people would *love* the idea of just a power cable to plug in and that's it.

Of all the people I know who use computers - that is, everyone I know - *I'm* the only one who's even remotely interested in doing any upgrading at all. And I've been perfectly happy with my iMac. Yes, I've got a tangle of wires/cables for my HDs and speakers, but those were my choice, not forced upon me just to use the computer. The options are a forced tangle of wires just to use the computer and a place to put an extra HD or TV Card inside (the Dell) or no wires at all and have external boxes for added functionality.

Personally, I'd rather deal with a mess of my choosing than one I was forced to live with.

[Satchmo]

Originally Posted by torifile Oh, fer chrissakes! The vast majority of users don't have *any* desire to upgrade their graphics card or optical drive. *Most* people want to get home and plug the computer in and go. I'd venture to say that most people would *love* the idea of just a power cable to plug in and that's it.

Yes, you're right. The vast majority won't. But as I said, and I'll say it again. It's a compromise (and not a difficult one on Apple's part) that would simply somewhat appease those who MAY want to upgrade their drives or tinker a bit with the innards. If you just want to plug and go, that's fine too.
Heck, by allowing greater access, it may spur a consumer into wanting more customization and eventually push them into buying a tower.