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Trumpetman
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Galt's Gulch
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2008-01-25, 10:55

The following was all bullshit to mess with people as some lame ass experiment. Please read the thread with that in mind -alci

Well, I'm not exactly known as the guy who unloads much emotionally, but I need some combined brainpower/empathy to ponder what to do in this particular circumstance.

My wife recently decided to return to work after having left the workforce for several years to raise our two sons. We had agreed that she would return at the beginning of the 2007 school year however her lack of enthusiasm at this task was plainly evident and needless to say, when after eight months of not even getting her resume together, I figured she wasn't likely to be hired. She managed to finally pull it together and apply for one job after the beginning of the school year. She didn't get it and so since she wasn't working, we agreed that she would devote herself full-time to trying to address her health since she has gotten quite heavy for her size. We agreed that if this were not done that she would have to substitute starting with the new year since that would indicate another five months of basically no effort.

So January rolls around, nothing has been done health wise, no clubs joined, no food plans attempted, no exercise plan. So it is time to put down the foot and when I do she goes and finds a job at a neighboring district.

Now to be polite my wife has several ongoing problems that are now manifesting themselves as both problems and solutions now that she is working. In our household while she was home, it was basically summer camp. By this I mean that her time was hers and even with that the household wasn't kept up and she would often need my help. The time seemed to slip by and often so did the money. She would claim that she desired order but couldn't keep a schedule or a budget. She actually kept the check register but couldn't use the budget feature in Quicken or would magically make the numbers add up at the end of the month.

We didn't have money problems because I would take the growth from our investments and find some way to get even more from it to insure we always had savings and asset growth. I also really didn't care to address it that harshly because everyone was kept happy and really there are worse things in life than folding a basket of clothes or two to help when the wife and kids have wandered out to parks, museums, just around sometimes and enjoyed themselves through out the day even if blowing a little cash. I mean there are worse things in life to worry about and we are well ahead of the game of life than most.

So needless to say she has gone back to work and for everyone that is not her... it has been wonderful and that is where the paradox lays. When she decided to go back I told her flat out that instead of helping her with certain tasks, I would just assume responsibility for them and do them outright. So laundry, dishes, dropping off kids, preparing breakfast and lunch, and paying the bills are all mine now.

I do these tasks and in fact enjoy doing them now that we don't have to deal with the constant self-imposed inefficiencies she seems to demand and call "order." As an example she would do laundry in these impossibly small loads and in some ridiculously small non-laundry baskets. My first order of business was to buy regular laundry baskets, you know the $7 at Walmart kind and do it once a week. We now have 3-4 large loads done one day a week instead of 10-12 micro-loads that were done... daily... bi-daily.. not quite sure. I've taken our shopping back to more generic brands in terms of food staples. I've been watching the expenses more carefully. I've even taken to helping with certain tasks that are still hers since she is getting used to trying to balance work and home demands.

The results have been great on paper. We still have a few days to go but I'm estimating that we have a $900 reduction in monthly expenses from previous spending. This is not including her salary which we can now bank since we live within the one salary. She has actually lost 13 pounds in a month due to having to get up, go to work, keep a schedule, etc. I'm sure part of it is stress related but that is part of the paradox, most of the stress is self-imposed or created out of a refusal to adopt more productive methods of work (like with the laundry.)

In our house, the clothes are clean, the cabinets are well-stocked, the coffers are full so to speak with regard to budgeting.

So the paradox is of course my wife is miserable and we have small fights here and there related to control of matters she previously managed. Little short, terse conversations like these:

Her-It's Sunday, you should do the laundry.
Me-The laundry is fine. I like the weekends free and will do it on Monday.
Her-What about the kids going to school tomorrow and our going to work?
Me-I checked and everyone still has around four days of clothes left.
Her-But we could do it today, I can't take this disorder around her.
Me-They have plenty of clothes, no one is going to work or school in dirty clothes. They have clean clothes now because I did the laundry last Monday and left that weekend free as well.
Her-Well I'm going to just go do the laundry now since you won't do it.
Me- Can you give me a rational reason why we should be scared at doing laundry weekly? Is there some sort of fear we should have about only having four pairs of clean pants and half a dozen shirts available on Monday morning? Is someone going to die?
Her-You just don't appreciate order.
Me- Your way is not a synonym for order.

Her-I'm going to be late from work so please start dinner. After dinner I'll have to spend the entire evening making phone calls to parents.
Me-Why are you making 20 calls a day home?
Her-I have to tell the parents their kids misbehaved and that they have detention.
Me-Everyone else uses a detention form. The kids take it home, get it signed and bring it back.
Her-I can't do that. (really I won't) They won't bring them back if I do that.
Me- Have you tried it yet?
Her-No but I can tell from this bunch I won't get them back.
Me- Why don't you make a trade. They save your time and thus get theirs. Give them the form, if they bring it back they shave 5-10 minutes off the detention and get to leave a bit early. It makes everyone happy and saves you from 20 calls a day.
Her-I can't do that.
Me-Why not? You can't turn a 30 minute detention into a 25 minute detention to save yourself 60-90 minutes of calling a day?
Her-No I can't. If it says 30 then I want it to be 30.

With such wonderful reasoning, of course her job is overwhelming her. It now has to consume her evenings, her weekends, her holidays. I work in the same field though not at the same level and manage not to let this happen. I know she is returning to the classroom, but everything is pure drama. I know it is possible to gain control of your time and manage it effectively so that your entire life is not consumed by your job.

So herein is the paradox. In every objective measure including her physical health. Everything is better with her working now. We save money, the housework is done on a schedule or even if the schedule was missed you understand why as opposed to "I just couldn't get to that today." The homework is still done. The kids are still carted to sports. The bills are still paid. Everything is as it was or better. My wife is responsible for about half a meal a day in terms of preparation. We actually eat out less now.

The flip side is my wife declares she is completely miserable. Even though everything is objectively better and she will admit it when questioned on it, her inner-dialog, the mental processes that start the little tense conversations assure her it all must be falling to crap. I guess I could hope that over time, her inner-dialog and reality begin to be in sync. But sadly from past experience, this hasn't often worked out. She will basically create her own misery do to thought processes that paint her into a corner.

What are your thoughts?
 
ghoti
owner for sale by house
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Charlotte, NC
 
2008-01-25, 11:09

How long has she been back in her job? Don't you think things will even out a bit more over the next few weeks?

I can kind of understand why she's doing the calls rather than the forms: control. If I understand correctly, she's just back in the job for a week or two after a long downtime. Now she wants to do things perfectly and show the world how things should be done. Once she feels secure and in control in her job again (as much as you can do that as a teacher ), I'm sure she will be more open to your suggestions.
 
Yonzie
Mac Mini Maniac
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
 
2008-01-25, 11:17

Sounds a lot like a depression to me. That's not just some fancy name, it's a physiological condition. (some receptors in the brain go out of whack so something isn't right)
Give her a test? http://www.med.nyu.edu/psych/screens/depres.html

In short, you're doing a great job as it is. The hard part is to make her realize that she has a mental problem, and overcome it. After having been married for a long time, and looking at the problems you are having which is obviously annoying, you may not be as romantically attentive as you could be. In order for her to accept your suggestions, she may need to feel that you love her.

Converted 07/2005.

Last edited by Windswept : 2008-01-28 at 16:37.
 
Taskiss
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St. Louis, MO
 
2008-01-25, 11:24

You're solving all the problems. That's not "working together". Marriage is about working together.

In a social context, true happiness is gained not by what we do for ourselves, but by how well we feel we are doing for others. Without the recognition gained from taking on responsibilities and achieving success, we won't feel we're contributing, and the human psyche is most comfortable when we feel we've been recognized for our contribution.

Self recognition is also pretty important. I'm of the opinion that people aren't usually shown that it's OK to feel good about themselves and what they've accomplished. I think it's a pretty significant contributor to clinical depression.

People have to have something REAL to feel successful about, though. Telling a kid it's wonderful that they've filled the potty without filling their drawers works great, but that isn't such a wonderful accomplishment for a 20 year old.

real hackers don't use sigs
 
murbot
Hoonigan
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canada
 
2008-01-25, 11:27

Maybe she has feelings of worthlessness and/or jealousy because you seem to be able to do everything that she used to do "full time" with no problems. Maybe she's sticking to the 30 minute thing because if she has no control at home, she's sure as hell going to have it with the little bastards at school.
 
Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2008-01-25, 11:27

I tend to disagree with the depression angle. I don't think this is anything clinical. If it were you'd probably be seeing many more destructive behaviors, etc. She's just not adapting well yet IMO. Anyway, nothing like the "logic" of a woman to make things interesting. Not to make light of your situation but I couldn't help but laugh empathetically when you wrote:

Quote:
Me-The laundry is fine. I like the weekends free and will do it on Monday.
Her-What about the kids going to school tomorrow and our going to work?
Me-I checked and everyone still has around four days of clothes left.
Her-But we could do it today, I can't take this disorder around her.
Me-They have plenty of clothes, no one is going to work or school in dirty clothes. They have clean clothes now because I did the laundry last Monday and left that weekend free as well.
Her-Well I'm going to just go do the laundry now since you won't do it.
Me- Can you give me a rational reason why....
...and no, she cannot and will not give you a rational reason why. Many women are innately terrible at this sort of logic-based dialog within their homes I'm afraid. That's because it's not about logic to them, it's about the order they have created in their brain and lived with for x amount of time... and anything that breaks said order, is dis-order. EVEN IF it's *more* organized / logical. They just can't see it, bud. It's how we're wired IMO. And there are things a man will never see that are plain as day to most women.

Hate to say it but just let it roll off your shoulders or even placate with some little side-comment to end the argument, because the argument itself will do more damage than the worst-case scenario of the issue you're debating... in this case kids theoretically going to school with dirty close in a few days time.

What would I do...?

I would encourage her. Demonstrate with actions and words how proud you are that she's even making the effort to get back into work, losing weight, etc. Don't be a corn-ball about it (sappy will make it worse), but genuinely say "you know it's pretty awesome that you're starting to manage regular work again and have reached a more healthy weight. You should give yourself at day at the spa this weekend; I'll get the kids to soccer (or whatever)."

Whatever you do, DON'T let her talk herself into slipping back out of teaching as summer approaches. She might start with 'I don't know if I want to do this next year" stuff. Nip it in the bud, spin it positive, do whatever you have to to encourage her to keep going. I think time is the only cure, frankly. She just needs to get used to things now. And as crazy as the 20 calls thing is, sooner or later she'll realize what a waste that is.

And why do 20 kids have detention in teh first place? That sounds a lot like she's having control issues in class and giving everyone detention. Recipe for disaster. Maybe she needs to attend some continuing ed semianrs for teaching professionals, to get her head back in the game as far as current practices for controlling the classroom without seeming afraid, handling discipline cases, etc? Teaching evolves just like any other profession I'm sure, so maybe she's behind the times a bit?

Just a guess. I don't teach kids so take it FWIW. In general though sounds like you are headed in the right direction. I agree with Taskiss though that you shouldn't take over every responsibility she has in the house. Both because it sets a bad precedent for sharing the load, and because it might make her feel like she has even less control. When you get down to it I think her problems stem from losing control in one arena, and not knowing how to handle the new control she's been given in another. But it's pretty normal I think; most people would have some bumps in the road as they try to adapt to that type of scenario.

...into the light of a dark black night.

Last edited by Moogs : 2008-01-25 at 11:38.
 
thegelding
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Join Date: May 2004
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2008-01-25, 11:40

with some of the extra money, hire a once a week worker to come and do some cleaning and the laundry...

that way she sees that you can't easily replace her, that you too need some extra help and that some of her earning a salary is actually going to hire somebody to do some of her old work...

you'll still be way ahead financially, she won't feel so easily replaced, the laundry can be done on the day she likes while you still have the weekend free to do family stuff

g


ps...the 20 detentions a day worries me a bit too....but i don't know her situation, nor if this is maybe also a bit of an exaggeration....i do think the stress of a job, vs staying at home, will add a painful dynamic for at least a while...i do like the pounds lost though and would encourage and highlight that often to her

unless she hates compliments like my wife...then it is easier not to point it out often

crazy is not a rare human condition

everything is food if you chew hard enough
 
Wyatt
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Near Indianapolis
 
2008-01-25, 12:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegelding View Post
with some of the extra money, hire a once a week worker to come and do some cleaning and the laundry...

that way she sees that you can't easily replace her, that you too need some extra help and that some of her earning a salary is actually going to hire somebody to do some of her old work...

you'll still be way ahead financially, she won't feel so easily replaced, the laundry can be done on the day she likes while you still have the weekend free to do family stuff

g
I think this is a great idea, g. I definitely think this could help.

Then again, maybe I just wish somebody would come do our laundry more often.
 
faust
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
 
2008-01-25, 12:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegelding View Post
with some of the extra money, hire a once a week worker to come and do some cleaning and the laundry...

that way she sees that you can't easily replace her, that you too need some extra help and that some of her earning a salary is actually going to hire somebody to do some of her old work...

you'll still be way ahead financially, she won't feel so easily replaced, the laundry can be done on the day she likes while you still have the weekend free to do family stuff

g


ps...the 20 detentions a day worries me a bit too....but i don't know her situation, nor if this is maybe also a bit of an exaggeration....i do think the stress of a job, vs staying at home, will add a painful dynamic for at least a while...i do like the pounds lost though and would encourage and highlight that often to her

unless she hates compliments like my wife...then it is easier not to point it out often
Not sure that spending money just to make her feel better is the right way to go.

What grade does the wife teach? ABout half my friends are teachers or are married to teachers and I don't think I've ever heard them mention that many detentions over the course of the year.


I'm a female witha short fuse, by now I would have told her to get over herself many times. But I'll cut her some slack and assume that being out of the job market so long is to blame. A lot of folks that take a long break have problems adjusting, often they act like their job is very demanding and taking over their lives. Maybe this will pass.
 
SteveC
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Boston
 
2008-01-25, 12:31

"miserable" is something that people carry within themselves between their ears. It has nothing to do with the physical world, bank accounts, etc.

Like the old saying, "it isn't what you go through, it is how you go through it."

You seem a bit more balanced in life than she is, and you are troubled by her lack of balance. While nothing you described is "wrong," the think you need to "fix" is yourself. You need to find a way to teach your "balance" to her, and, of course, continue to improve upon your own.

I am not suggesting that this is easy, only that it is the path. The number of detentions that she handed out would indicate that she is stressed out, and the kids are picking up on that vibe. So why did she go back to work? The answer (hopefully) is that she has something to share within herself. If she arrives as a basket-case, then she is poisoning the kids, not teaching them. So it is very important that she get an objective look at herself, and the fact that she is creating this misery she feels.

While you can make things run better at home, it doesn't take much to accommodate certain requests. For example, doing laundry on Sunday isn't going to kill you, and if it makes her feel like the kids are not properly prepared, etc., it is an easy request for you to accommodate. As always, you must choose your fights carefully. Adding to the angst because of the laundry is unnecessary on your part.

While you have a long list of changes that you expect from her, don't forget that you need a list as long for yourself, too. And if you object to "one more change," then you should get a sense of how she feels, too.

The great irony in life, (or as you put it "paradox of paradoxes,") is that people fear change as much as they desire it. No progress is possible without change, and yet there is always the possibility that a change for the worse can occur, too. This is why balance is so important. Any problem can be fixed if people have the right attitude. The things that generically trip people up are fear, pride and greed, either individually or in some toxic combination. Losing weight is about pride, taking a new job is about fear, etc., so she is struggling with changes that you do not have to make. Keep that in mind. Your changes are pretty minor compared to hers.

Help her through the changes that are important (her job and self-esteem, etc.,) and stop whining about how it is effecting you, and bragging about you are a super-hero because you can now fold the laundry and balance a checkbook. Your thinking your fecal matter doesn't stink is contributing the problem, (which is what I meant by how pride trips people up.)

good luck.
 
ghoti
owner for sale by house
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Charlotte, NC
 
2008-01-25, 12:34

Faust brings up a good point: does she have any close, female friends? You guys being best friends and all is all good and well, but a little girl-to-girl straight-talk will perhaps give her some perspective and have more impact than the same (or similar things) coming from you.
 
Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2008-01-25, 13:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post

Help her through the changes that are important (her job and self-esteem, etc.,) and stop whining about how it is effecting you, and bragging about you are a super-hero because you can now fold the laundry and balance a checkbook. Your thinking your fecal matter doesn't stink is contributing the problem, (which is what I meant by how pride trips people up.)

You just had to throw that last paragraph in there, didn't you? You are trying hard once more to show everyone just how much wisdom you believe yourself to possess, but sadly you are not convincing most of the time.

While some of your comments make sense, as with other topics your conclusions are freakin' comical. I didn't get the impression from the original posting that Trumpetman was whining or bragging. He was asking for ideas to help solve a situation (which he described in some detail so we could give better answers), because he is rightly concerned about improving things in his home before they get out of hand. He's taking a pretty reasoned and responsible approach if you want my opinion. Most guys wouldn't have enough character to set aside their pride, admit some marital difficulties, and ask others for ideas.

In short, your assessments above say more about you then they do about Trumpetman. Arrogant jackass. Try a little humility and posting with a tone that indicates you believe yourself to be a peer, not a person giving advice from on high. You might like the results.

...into the light of a dark black night.
 
autodata
hustlin
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2008-01-25, 13:50

Sounds a lot like turf battles over the lack of well-defined roles and specializations. It's hard to work as a team in those situations. Picking up tasks that were previously formally designated as someone else's responsibilities when he or she is still around is always tough and needs to be handled with care. Dropping down on someone else's game and schooling them about it is a pretty standard recipe for trouble.

I feel it's often better to manage roles at a higher level, focusing on skills rather than specific tasks. Tasks then get divvied up in a natural, more flexible way and people can even work on the same task in a way that's productive. Owning tasks is good if there is some crucial value added by some skill only one person has, but otherwise it creates barriers where they don't need to be.

For instance, the laundry. If one person is better at finding deals, then that person naturally should be dealing with any tasks related to that, in this case buying laundry baskets. But as far as the task of doing laundry itself it's a non-issue. Here's how that conversation should have gone:
Quote:
Her-It's Sunday, you should do the laundry.
Me-The laundry is fine. I like the weekends free and will do it on Monday.
Her-What about the kids going to school tomorrow and our going to work?
Me-I checked and everyone still has around four days of clothes left.
Her-But we could do it today, I can't take this disorder around her.
Me - Cool. Have fun doing the laundry, then. If you don't end up getting to it today I'll still do it tomorrow as planned. ttyl.
The only reason the discussion would continue after this point would be that it was an assigned task, which makes no sense. If you just accept that everyone approaches the problem differently, then people will naturally solve it when it's appropriate for their individual preferences. In this case there are two opportunities for the task to be completed depending on who picks up the task first. There is no reason to assign the task to one person if both adults are working, unless that task is vital and there is some expectation that both will neglect the task, and that's clearly not the case here.

There do seem to be personality issues on both sides, though. On her side, the detention thing is a red flag. On the other side:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
You just had to throw that last paragraph in there, didn't you?
He's making a good point in a harsh way. The problem isn't so much the OP's apparent belief that he's the best laundry folder in the world, it's that (according to the exchanges he posted) he's basically breaking it down for her in a way that becomes classic micromanaging. Sometimes it's a problem to be so anal that you know there are exactly four days worth of clean clothes left, which is OK as long as other people aren't burdened with it. And the detention lecture missed the forest for the trees. The near-term problem isn't the inefficiency of her method (focusing on that is, again, classic micromanaging). The problem is that the high number of detentions is indicative of other, more pervasive issues she's having with dealing with these kids, ie, other people & work.
 
SteveC
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Boston
 
2008-01-25, 13:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
He's taking a pretty reasoned and responsible approach if you want my opinion. Most guys wouldn't have enough character to set aside their pride, admit some marital difficulties, and ask others for ideas.
True, but how he understands the changes also reveals what he thinks of himself, not just of how he is thinking about his wife.

There are two sides to every story, I was showing how his wife might interpret his attitude about his new role.

Of course, he could show his post to his wife, not to us, but he is trying to sort out his feelings, as well.

As I said at my open, he has more balance than her, but he IS out of balance, too. Hence his plea for advice.
I gave him my view of the ENTIRE situation. Thus his "humility" also has an element of fear and pride in it.

If you disagree, that's fine. I wouldn't expect you to agree with anything I say at this point, because you are afraid of what I say. (Isn't it interesting how fear forms different faces?) In any case, my reply was to his questions, not towards your opinion of me. You need help of an entirely different sort, since you are in denial. You criticize what you cannot understand, whereas he seeks to understand what he cannot understand. HUGE difference.
 
Trumpetman
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2008-01-25, 13:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghoti View Post
How long has she been back in her job? Don't you think things will even out a bit more over the next few weeks?

I can kind of understand why she's doing the calls rather than the forms: control. If I understand correctly, she's just back in the job for a week or two after a long downtime. Now she wants to do things perfectly and show the world how things should be done. Once she feels secure and in control in her job again (as much as you can do that as a teacher ), I'm sure she will be more open to your suggestions.
With her it is likely very much about control. She has been back four weeks and what you say could be true. However this was how she tended to operate when she was working before we had children. There just weren't kids around then and I could likely just get away from it for a while if it became overbearing. I mean who wants to spend the evening feeling tense because the laundry was done, but not on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yonzie View Post
Sounds a lot like a depression to me. That's not just some fancy name, it's a physiological condition. (some receptors in the brain go out of whack so something isn't right)
Give her a test? http://www.med.nyu.edu/psych/screens/depres.html

In short, you're doing a great job as it is. The hard part is to make her realize that she has a mental problem, and overcome it. After having been married for a long time, and looking at the problems you are having which is obviously annoying, you may not be as romantically attentive as you could be. In order for her to accept your suggestions, she may need to feel that you love her.
She did take anti-depressants for a while around a decade ago so you might be right. I very much appreciate your last suggestion. It has that perfect sort of female reasoning in it that just doesn't fly into my brain. The suggestion meter might not be open because the attention meter might not be properly calibrated. I've been giving her attention but not anything romantically special. Perhaps time for something special.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post
You're solving all the problems. That's not "working together". Marriage is about working together.

In a social context, true happiness is gained not by what we do for ourselves, but by how well we feel we are doing for others. Without the recognition gained from taking on responsibilities and achieving success, we won't feel we're contributing, and the human psyche is most comfortable when we feel we've been recognized for our contribution.

Self recognition is also pretty important. I'm of the opinion that people aren't usually shown that it's OK to feel good about themselves and what they've accomplished. I think it's a pretty significant contributor to clinical depression.

People have to have something REAL to feel successful about, though. Telling a kid it's wonderful that they've filled the potty without filling their drawers works great, but that isn't such a wonderful accomplishment for a 20 year old.
I agree that it is about working together. I have given help and worked together in the past. We still tag team much of home life. The real issue though is that she was always in a position to dictate and control and now when it is not that way, it turns out she can't work together very well. If I help the kids with math homework or run them to swim so she can make calls I consider that working together. However the fact that she won't try detention slips and MUST call to me feels like some attempt to keep control of people via some sort of martyrdom and I am not talking about the control of the students. It feels like she is still trying to control the household instead of working within it. If she HAS to call then I HAVE to do X in the fashion she dictates, at least by her reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by murbot View Post
Maybe she has feelings of worthlessness and/or jealousy because you seem to be able to do everything that she used to do "full time" with no problems. Maybe she's sticking to the 30 minute thing because if she has no control at home, she's sure as hell going to have it with the little bastards at school.
Could be but I don't think she is helping herself beyond obtaining some false sense of control I guess. One of the most laughable anecdotes I recount, not related to her but to teaching, is all the parents that would do things like not check their kid's homework. They gave me the "just wait until you have kids someday" bit and now that I do it makes me even more callous to their position. It is because while homework sort of sucks in that it needs a sort of nagging attention, it isn't hard to check and keep up with what is going on. So basically I know they are full of crap when claiming that a parent can't help with homework. Instead of empathy I have the opposite, indifference. I certainly don't want to be indifferent to my wife's claims and feelings and that is what is hard to figure out here. I suppose it is like the heavy person screaming how much they hate the trainer and treadmill for improving them. Only the issue here is I cannot and will not force her to change. I can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
What would I do...?

I would encourage her. Demonstrate with actions and words how proud you are that she's even making the effort to get back into work, losing weight, etc. Don't be a corn-ball about it (sappy will make it worse), but genuinely say "you know it's pretty awesome that you're starting to manage regular work again and have reached a more healthy weight. You should give yourself at day at the spa this weekend; I'll get the kids to soccer (or whatever)."

Whatever you do, DON'T let her talk herself into slipping back out of teaching as summer approaches. She might start with 'I don't know if I want to do this next year" stuff. Nip it in the bud, spin it positive, do whatever you have to to encourage her to keep going. I think time is the only cure, frankly. She just needs to get used to things now. And as crazy as the 20 calls thing is, sooner or later she'll realize what a waste that is.

And why do 20 kids have detention in teh first place? That sounds a lot like she's having control issues in class and giving everyone detention. Recipe for disaster. Maybe she needs to attend some continuing ed semianrs for teaching professionals, to get her head back in the game as far as current practices for controlling the classroom without seeming afraid, handling discipline cases, etc? Teaching evolves just like any other profession I'm sure, so maybe she's behind the times a bit?

Just a guess. I don't teach kids so take it FWIW. In general though sounds like you are headed in the right direction. I agree with Taskiss though that you shouldn't take over every responsibility she has in the house. Both because it sets a bad precedent for sharing the load, and because it might make her feel like she has even less control. When you get down to it I think her problems stem from losing control in one arena, and not knowing how to handle the new control she's been given in another. But it's pretty normal I think; most people would have some bumps in the road as they try to adapt to that type of scenario.
Unquoted part... agree 100%. I agree with the positive part. I've try to be positive. I think this is why we have small tense conversations instead of outright fights. I'll toss in a joke, a compliment, whatever but typically we get along well enough to not even have the tense conversations so even they bother me. As for the teaching thing, she is already talking about quitting at the end of this year. I certainly cannot force her to work or stay on. The 20 kids have detention because as a middle school teacher you see 6 periods of 35 kids for a total of 210 kids per day. This basically amounts to 3 detentions per class which really isn't that bad to start. She might work it down some as the year goes on. The issue for me is more dealing with it in some time intensive manner that is not the norm, allows her to grab control of others as she martyrs herself to the time she now MUST spend on it. I've seen this behavior from her before and have never solved it yet. I basically deal with it by refusing the supposed help needed until she agrees to mutual terms. The problem now I suppose is that I can't refuse to help family or home. My point a bit is that I don't want every responsibility, just don't want flack for the ones I am doing well. I am more than willing to have her help me in any duties but she basically won't unless it is on her terms. If it isn't on her terms then she must go martyr herself to the classroom cause or... something like that.... it gets a bit unclear and confusing at times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegelding View Post
with some of the extra money, hire a once a week worker to come and do some cleaning and the laundry...

that way she sees that you can't easily replace her, that you too need some extra help and that some of her earning a salary is actually going to hire somebody to do some of her old work...

you'll still be way ahead financially, she won't feel so easily replaced, the laundry can be done on the day she likes while you still have the weekend free to do family stuff
This has a bit of that again, backwards to me but makes sense from a female perspective reasoning in it. I appreciate it more than you might know because my brain just does not function in that fashion. I would never think that hiring someone to help me might mentally help her but it has a sort of strange logic to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by faust View Post
Not sure that spending money just to make her feel better is the right way to go.

What grade does the wife teach? ABout half my friends are teachers or are married to teachers and I don't think I've ever heard them mention that many detentions over the course of the year.

I'm a female witha short fuse, by now I would have told her to get over herself many times. But I'll cut her some slack and assume that being out of the job market so long is to blame. A lot of folks that take a long break have problems adjusting, often they act like their job is very demanding and taking over their lives. Maybe this will pass.
Wife teachers middle school, seventh grade. I don't think it will pass because I suspect it is more about control than about workload, etc. I'll admit that part of this has to come from my side as well. I mean if you are forced to work in what you consider an inefficient or time consuming manner, and then something gives you an out to change it, you really aren't inclined to go backwards when that opening has presented itself. I really didn't care to go grocery shopping for example and she handled it since she was home during the day. I might see expensive this or that in the cabinet or being prepared and would mentally file a grievance but just shrug it off because as I noted before, everyone was kept happy. No one wants to treat the claims of a spouse skeptically. You want to believe the best there. So if it costs X dollars a month to feed our family, so be it. I'm not going to fight or question it. However now having grabbed that role and realizing it doesn't have to be this way, I'm probably more resist to claims that were previously just let go.

The laundry thing as an example again (Something easy for us all to relate to) I'm sure how she does it is likely just some holdover behavior from having babies. You have babies in the house and the washer is always running. The poop and pee a thousand times a day (or so it seems) so you do these micro-loads of clothes every day and put them away. So I mean I can see where she was coming from. I get it. She isn't some insane kook but the wife I love. However our youngest is now six and it makes no sense to still do laundry that way. When the kid in diapers is now the kid that can carry the basket up the stairs and put it away, something should change. As you can see here I can empathize, understand and explain. I just can't make her change. Now of course the problem is that I've made the change since she is working, and I don't want to go backwards. Sure she has lost control here but how healthy is it to have doing the laundry be about control?

Everyone here rules in their helpful responses and please keep them coming. This response is already too long, but I like thinking that is different than my own and there have been several helpful insights. Even if I may seem resistant to them in typing they might plant a seed of understanding that pops up as an "oh yeah", later.

Last edited by Windswept : 2008-01-28 at 16:40. Reason: Line deleted at request of its writer.
 
Kickaha
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2008-01-25, 14:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
If you disagree, that's fine. I wouldn't expect you to agree with anything I say at this point, because you are afraid of what I say.
...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

No, SteveC dear, it's because you're a pompous, delusional, asshat of an idiot that we disagree with you.

Fear has nothing to do with it. Disgust, maybe.

Sorry Trumpetman, back to your (otherwise) very well presented thread. I read with interest.
 
Moogs
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2008-01-25, 14:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
True, but how he understands the changes also reveals what he thinks of himself, not just of how he is thinking about his wife.

There are two sides to every story, I was showing how his wife might interpret his attitude about his new role.
Then why not say that at the outset? The words you wrote come across strongly as "I believe you are whining and bragging", not "your wife may feel you are whining and being a show off". But maybe it's just me... *shrug*

Quote:
As I said at my open, he has more balance than her, but he IS out of balance, too. Hence his plea for advice.
Requesting advice does not automatically imply imbalance, Steve. On the contrary it generally implies that a good measure of balance is present. Life is complicated, and even the most steady-minded and responsible among us, have peaks and valleys we have to deal with every week. That the peaks and valleys exist, do not speak to whether a person is emotionally or logically balanced in their approach to something. It's simply all the variables of a person's life creating new situations and challenges, personal and otherwise.

While I would say it's probably true, based on the specific details he provided, that his wife is somewhat imbalanced in terms of handling (in what seem to me to be) control issues, even that doesn't mean she is an imbalanced person generally. Unless your definition of balance requires near-perfect stability in the handling of every new circumstance and challenge. We all have strong and weak suits, and in a good marriage, hopefully the spouses balance each other off in that regard. Seems to me they're pretty dern close to doing just that in this case....

Quote:
If you disagree, that's fine. I wouldn't expect you to agree with anything I say at this point, because you are afraid of what I say. (Isn't it interesting how fear forms different faces?) In any case, my reply was to his questions, not towards your opinion of me. You need help of an entirely different sort, since you are in denial. You criticize what you cannot understand, whereas he seeks to understand what he cannot understand. HUGE difference.
And THAT ^^ is why people refer to you as a troll. But anyway Steve, I understand perfectly, exactly, the situation he describes, because I've successfully dealt with similar situations in my own home and seen others deal with it in their homes. All married couples who stay married, have done so. Even unmarried couples who live together, often do so and must. It doesn't take a rocket scientist [to truly understand the situation]. Just a little humility and empathy. Also, so you are aware, denial makes no sense in this context as I'm an advice-giver, not an advice-seeker. But uh, yah you do scare me Steve. Just not in the ways you assume.



ANYWAY, back on topic: Trumpetman, I'd be interested to know (as others do) more of her background as far as teaching, why she does it, etc. Almost sounds like it's a "she took this particular position because she couldn't find one better suited to her teaching background". Is that correct?

...into the light of a dark black night.

Last edited by Moogs : 2008-01-25 at 14:33. Reason: Clarified last bit about understanding situation
 
Brad
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Join Date: May 2004
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2008-01-25, 14:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trumpetman View Post
The 20 kids have detention because as a middle school teacher you see 6 periods of 35 kids for a total of 210 kids per day. This basically amounts to 3 detentions per class which really isn't that bad to start. She might work it down some as the year goes on.
The detention thing jumped out at me earlier, too. Have things really gotten *that* much worse over the past fifteen years? When I was in middle school, maybe one or two kids from a week's worth of classes I was in would get detention. Perhaps I was just lucky to attend a school with very well behaved kids?

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
 
Moogs
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Join Date: May 2004
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2008-01-25, 14:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
The detention thing jumped out at me earlier, too. Have things really gotten *that* much worse over the past fifteen years? When I was in middle school, maybe one or two kids from a week's worth of classes I was in would get detention. Perhaps I was just lucky to attend a school with very well behaved kids?

I agree with that assessment, but I didn't realize she was teaching several periods / classes each day, so at least in that context the number 20 makes a little more sense. I suspect though 20 should actually be more like 10. Bah, kids these days. They need a little detention, by God! Why when I was in school, we had walk uphill in the snow to detention. In May. With bare feet.

But seriously... there have to be some resources for her, for at least handling the school side a bit more gracefully. I'm sure many teachers deal with stuff like this when coming back from a long sabbatical, maternity leave, or whatever. Maybe some of the people she works with can help lend some useful advice?

...into the light of a dark black night.
 
Taskiss
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2008-01-25, 14:41

Personal question, and ignore this if you think it's too personal..

How old are you? How old is your wife? How long have you two been married?
 
thegelding
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2008-01-25, 14:45

Quote:
Not sure that spending money just to make her feel better is the right way to go.

not to be a prick, but damn we spend money constantly to make people feel better...it is what you do for the ones you love...not the only thing (back and feet rubs are free, so is doing up the dishes or taking one of her chores as yours for a day (walking the dogs or something like that), but it is something you do

you take someone to dinner, you take someone to a movie, you schedule a spa appointment for them...etc etc

if trump is making good money, his kids are getting older, his wife is now working, hell, spending 50 to 100 bucks a week so somebody comes in to clean and do laundry so it frees up a family day, that's all gravy...and if he gets to turn it around and say, "dang honey, i see now what a great job you were doing all these years...i'm glad your back to work and doing well their and it's also great to see you losing some weight cuz i know that is going to help you so much in the years ahead...but boy, with my working too, it really has helped me to get some help at home, even just this one day a week...love you honey"

not much out of the family pocket, helps grow the economy by adding to the work force, maybe strokes the misses ego (which can not be understated as a good thing...we all need some ego stroking from time to time...hell, daily would be great), and frees up family time (even just 3 hours freed up can be huge for a family that has older kids....older kids tend to not be around as much as the younger ones...friends, school, the opposite sex all steal family time...gotta grab as many hours as you can before they flee off to college)

g

crazy is not a rare human condition

everything is food if you chew hard enough
 
faust
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Join Date: Oct 2005
 
2008-01-25, 14:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegelding View Post
not to be a prick, but damn we spend money constantly to make people feel better...it is what you do for the ones you love...not the only thing (back and feet rubs are free, so is doing up the dishes or taking one of her chores as yours for a day (walking the dogs or something like that), but it is something you do

you take someone to dinner, you take someone to a movie, you schedule a spa appointment for them...etc etc

if trump is making good money, his kids are getting older, his wife is now working, hell, spending 50 to 100 bucks a week so somebody comes in to clean and do laundry so it frees up a family day, that's all gravy...and if he gets to turn it around and say, "dang honey, i see now what a great job you were doing all these years...i'm glad your back to work and doing well their and it's also great to see you losing some weight cuz i know that is going to help you so much in the years ahead...but boy, with my working too, it really has helped me to get some help at home, even just this one day a week...love you honey"

not much out of the family pocket, helps grow the economy by adding to the work force, maybe strokes the misses ego (which can not be understated as a good thing...we all need some ego stroking from time to time...hell, daily would be great), and frees up family time (even just 3 hours freed up can be huge for a family that has older kids....older kids tend to not be around as much as the younger ones...friends, school, the opposite sex all steal family time...gotta grab as many hours as you can before they flee off to college)

g
I don't believe in spending money to reward bad behavior and in spending money each week on something that probably isn't needed.

Seems he has the laundry situation under control, its her that has an issue with his not freaking about that one dirty pait of socks in the hamper.

Last edited by faust : 2008-01-25 at 16:18.
 
SteveC
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Boston
 
2008-01-25, 15:15

I should add that I have had laundry issues with my wife. In fact, I think laundry is the bane of the world.

If the female does it, it is the largest and most difficult job in the world. Time must stop so that this crushingly important activity is completed first. Only then can the world spin, and it gives woman the ever perpetual "I am overworked" claim.

If the male does it, it is never good enough. Thus, the issue is lose-lose for men. The best you can do is make it neutral. I suspect that if you can make peace with the laundry, it will go toward a long way with making peace regarding other issues.

While this statement is ridiculous, I think it is accurate, too. We have had more fights over the laundry than anything else. Your mileage may differ.

One thing I haven't gotten from your narrative is "why" did your wife need to go back to work? What was the gain? Is she working mother's hours while they are in school? (Maybe you stated this and I missed it.)
 
Trumpetman
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2008-01-25, 16:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
"miserable" is something that people carry within themselves between their ears. It has nothing to do with the physical world, bank accounts, etc.

Like the old saying, "it isn't what you go through, it is how you go through it."
Good sayings.

Quote:
You seem a bit more balanced in life than she is, and you are troubled by her lack of balance. While nothing you described is "wrong," the think you need to "fix" is yourself. You need to find a way to teach your "balance" to her, and, of course, continue to improve upon your own.
Agreed that it isn't wrong but stuff working itself out. If I knew how to bring about change we wouldn't be typing here would we.

Quote:
I am not suggesting that this is easy, only that it is the path. The number of detentions that she handed out would indicate that she is stressed out, and the kids are picking up on that vibe. So why did she go back to work? The answer (hopefully) is that she has something to share within herself. If she arrives as a basket-case, then she is poisoning the kids, not teaching them. So it is very important that she get an objective look at herself, and the fact that she is creating this misery she feels.
I suspect that coming in mid-year the kid will do a bit of feeling her out for boundaries and also have to unlearn some bad habits/patterns learned from the previous sub. Good question about the going back to work bit. She was a good teacher before quitting to have our sons. She has expressed a desire to do something "different" but hasn't really acted on it. She really likes staying home but basically was letting the time slip away unproductively which isn't okay with me and when questioned about it, not okay with her either. This is why I mentioned the whole resume, no position, six months bit. If she wanted to stay home, keep house, and just be a wife and mother that was honestly just fine with me.

However the reality is that she wasn't keep up the home or herself. She was mostly playing online sudoku, reading books and letting people phone her and fill her up with the daily drama of their lives. My phrase for that is summer camp/summer vacation. It is not something I am willing to endorse or fund by forgoing actions she should be undertaking, paying for someone else to do them, or undertaking them myself. Our family probably ate out four times a week while she was home because lunch/dinner wasn't ready even though she was home all day. I let all this slide when the kids were smaller but now when it is just her home all day, not acceptable. So basically the choice became shape up the home or go get the income so we can pay for someone to prepare the meals, do the cleaning, etc. that is not happening. Before she went back she decided to get a real estate license and possibly get the broker license so she could either sell homes or manage property. However she got the real estate license and hasn't listed it with a broker. She took one class toward the broker license and after that... none.

Quote:
While you can make things run better at home, it doesn't take much to accommodate certain requests. For example, doing laundry on Sunday isn't going to kill you, and if it makes her feel like the kids are not properly prepared, etc., it is an easy request for you to accommodate. As always, you must choose your fights carefully. Adding to the angst because of the laundry is unnecessary on your part.
Actually it is a problem because weekends for our family and most families are just really busy times. The fact it was done in small bits during the week and several small loads on the weekend just struck me as wrong when she is home all week. Her logic swore it couldn't get done any other time or in any other fashion. Our weekends just had to suck and be a bit irritating and cramped. I've proven that wrong and I didn't do so to make me right and her wrong. I did it because it had to be done and it was my responsibility now. However when the Sunday evening is free and relaxing, it shouldn't get tense because it isn't the old manner that rendered that Sunday evening a race to prepare the week.

I love my wife but the list of "cannots" with her on what couldn't get done was just too long to be plausible. So we went with the can that I know she must be able to do because she did it in the past which is teach. Maybe she can't sell a house or keep a house but she can use her degree and get a job.

Quote:
While you have a long list of changes that you expect from her, don't forget that you need a list as long for yourself, too. And if you object to "one more change," then you should get a sense of how she feels, too.
The changes on my side have been significant. The real issue though is that I have handled them. Heck the really real issue is I am happier with them. I am happier going grocery shopping at 10pm on a Wednesday, saving $400 or so when we can eat in and the shelves and fridge are stocked and cooking meals than just dealing with all the nonsense that didn't make sense before. It doesn't make sense when someone is home all day that the shelves are empty, the laundry is dirty, etc and they supposedly have been busting their hump all day to get something done. Some of the methods are just inefficient, like I noted with the laundry. However realize that some of them were just worse than that. As I said the budget was just numbers that added together at the end of the month to hide the true spending. These wasn't a clear schedule for the kids on many things. Summer vacation is fun but it isn't a way of life. The job has basically forced some productivity out of my wife. After summer vacation it sucks to have an alarm clock wake you up, to get dressed nicely everyday and go some place where things are expected of you. However this is what adults have to do.

Quote:
The great irony in life, (or as you put it "paradox of paradoxes,") is that people fear change as much as they desire it. No progress is possible without change, and yet there is always the possibility that a change for the worse can occur, too. This is why balance is so important. Any problem can be fixed if people have the right attitude. The things that generically trip people up are fear, pride and greed, either individually or in some toxic combination. Losing weight is about pride, taking a new job is about fear, etc., so she is struggling with changes that you do not have to make. Keep that in mind. Your changes are pretty minor compared to hers.
Well the right attitude is pretty much the paradox here. I've tried to be more open to fears she might have that others have suggested here. I can tell you the weight isn't about pride but health. I love her no matter what weight she is but reality dictates that if you weight X at Y height you likely will have diabetes, heart disease, joint problems, etc. Also I would say that the changes are not minor on my part. My day has become much longer. However honestly I don't mind the work when I see a return on it.

Quote:
Help her through the changes that are important (her job and self-esteem, etc.,) and stop whining about how it is effecting you, and bragging about you are a super-hero because you can now fold the laundry and balance a checkbook. Your thinking your fecal matter doesn't stink is contributing the problem, (which is what I meant by how pride trips people up.)
Send me an address and I will send you some fecal matter for inspection.

Listen the earlier part is thinking out loud, likely a bit of venting, and just laying it out there. People on here have mentioned that you often reference scripture. So certainly you are familiar with Josh McDowell and his book more than a carpenter. He give the reasoning of lord, liar or lunatic in his apologetics. The point is when you assert something you have to either be telling the truth, believe you are telling the truth and are deluded, or you are just lying.

I was being told that I was either deluded or lying. So I do the actions and it turns out I am neither. It doesn't make me a super-hero but it does let me know that I am not a liar or deluded in suggesting or taking certain actions. The family doesn't need to eat out four times a week to survive. I can budget and save money even within the one salary. The laundry can get done and leave the weekend free. As you noted it doesn't require one be a super-hero. I am not undertaking a herculean task. It is not even anything special. So expecting it of myself or someone else is not a deluded or dishonest position to take.

Quote:
Originally Posted by autodata View Post
The only reason the discussion would continue after this point would be that it was an assigned task, which makes no sense. If you just accept that everyone approaches the problem differently, then people will naturally solve it when it's appropriate for their individual preferences. In this case there are two opportunities for the task to be completed depending on who picks up the task first. There is no reason to assign the task to one person if both adults are working, unless that task is vital and there is some expectation that both will neglect the task, and that's clearly not the case here.
I didn't quote the top part in the interest of space and also because I agree with it. I also agree with your characterization of how the conversation should go and this in fact has been my previous approach. Over time though this is what has made me wonder more about control issues. For example if I continued that conversation she would then be a "martyr" since she would have to stop her inefficient means of grading, calling for detentions, etc. and handle the laundry which I now, by her reasoning, refuse to do. (Since it isn't on her terms) She will then stay up all night if need be to insure it is done by Monday. I've watched her work herself sick to keep control of these matters on her terms. After the terms are no longer disputed though, it goes back to getting quasi/inefficiently done until it is time to martyr herself again to retain control of the terms under which anything is done. So the pattern becomes quasi-inefficient work barely getting done. Then if the terms are disputed a bout of frantic work to the point of exhaustion to retain the quasi-inefficient work conditions.

This might be hard to imagine so imagine a sort of lazy/crazy John Henry driving his steel stakes with a hammer. Imagine him sort of lazily banging away with a steel hammer at a stake and getting no where compared to any modern machine or even anyone who took a productivity clue. When you show up with a steam machine to drive the stakes, he frantically bangs away with the hammer all night and is almost dead in the morning but somehow made a point about how their method of hammer and fist must still be just as good and thus must still be the adopted method.

Worse still imagine him in the morning claiming that it was your lazy desire to use the steam machine that forced him to work himself to near death overnight. It sounds a bit insane and it is, but I love her just the same.

This is what I mean when I use the martyr phrase I've tossed out there. You claim she isn't keeping a budget. She will stay up all night punch the numbers in and show it isn't possible to have spent the money different. However that isn't budgeting, it is just rigging the numbers. How can you question her though because she martyred herself all night to get those numbers. I go to bed.

Quote:
He's making a good point in a harsh way. The problem isn't so much the OP's apparent belief that he's the best laundry folder in the world, it's that (according to the exchanges he posted) he's basically breaking it down for her in a way that becomes classic micromanaging. Sometimes it's a problem to be so anal that you know there are exactly four days worth of clean clothes left, which is OK as long as other people aren't burdened with it. And the detention lecture missed the forest for the trees. The near-term problem isn't the inefficiency of her method (focusing on that is, again, classic micromanaging). The problem is that the high number of detentions is indicative of other, more pervasive issues she's having with dealing with these kids, ie, other people & work.
I'm more than glad to look at that point. I'm trying to keep an open mind and get different perspectives. I will say though that I honestly don't go check the clothing on a daily basis to know much is left. That was more like a guess-stimate. I don't have to shop on a particular day or wash on a particular day. I have broad concepts I like to follow like no-weekends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
ANYWAY, back on topic: Trumpetman, I'd be interested to know (as others do) more of her background as far as teaching, why she does it, etc. Almost sounds like it's a "she took this particular position because she couldn't find one better suited to her teaching background". Is that correct?
She got her degree in English and always wanted to be a teacher. Any mid-year position is probably not going to be a person's first choice. However she could have gotten her applications together during the summer and could have devoted the previous five or so months to her health in some fashion. Sure this amounts to the other shoe dropping in someway but it took several months to a year for it to drop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
The detention thing jumped out at me earlier, too. Have things really gotten *that* much worse over the past fifteen years? When I was in middle school, maybe one or two kids from a week's worth of classes I was in would get detention. Perhaps I was just lucky to attend a school with very well behaved kids?
Well you know I've never really attempted to verify that she is giving all of these detentions. I just take her word for it and have noted how it is used to dictate certain things. They could be totally made up and I wouldn't be skeptical enough of her to really dig into it. You're sort of digging at a subtext within the thread whereby I have said from the beginning, if I am doing more work, shouldn't I be less relaxed and more unhappy? Instead I suspect it is because the less I have to deal with this system of... what I call control+martyrdom, the more happy I am and this is what has me bummed and confused. I'd rather shop at 10 p.m. than be told I am insane to spend less than X ridiculously high number on groceries or that achieving Y in a certain laid back timeframe or manner is impossible. The number of detentions doesn't really matter. Detention slips exist at every school I have ever seen. To refuse to use them or claim them as an impossibility for use just strikes me as insane yet often I will be the one claimed to be insane for thinking this way by her. So I am pretty sure I have boiled down the behavior. I am just trying to figure out the best way to address it.

BTW, I'm not at work today. This would take way too long to type. My kids both earned student of the month and I took the day off to go to their little awards ceremony. Normally the wife goes but I have mondo sick days saved and she doesn't. It took an hour and the rest of the time I have been banging away on her while listening to the new (for me) Ozolmatli album which kicks huge butt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
I agree with that assessment, but I didn't realize she was teaching several periods / classes each day, so at least in that context the number 20 makes a little more sense. I suspect though 20 should actually be more like 10. Bah, kids these days. They need a little detention, by God! Why when I was in school, we had walk uphill in the snow to detention. In May. With bare feet.

But seriously... there have to be some resources for her, for at least handling the school side a bit more gracefully. I'm sure many teachers deal with stuff like this when coming back from a long sabbatical, maternity leave, or whatever. Maybe some of the people she works with can help lend some useful advice?
There are resources. Hell I'm a resource too! I never left and have been doing this stuff all along. However she seriously has some issues with doing things different from how she wants them done. I mentioned the whole give to get save time thing earlier in the thread. It was just shot down. You have to be open to advice. If your goal is do it my way or hit the highway, you are going to basically work yourself to death. She will do this from time to time as I noted to keep control and have done her own way of doing things. If it means she coughs up every weekend for a month, she will do it. When I just take the kids to the movies to have some fun, I'm just that asshole that didn't want to do the laundry. There isn't a middle ground. It is do it the inefficient way and then when you question the inefficient way do it frantically until illness/family fight/whatever happens to allow her to still dictate the terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post
Personal question, and ignore this if you think it's too personal..

How old are you? How old is your wife? How long have you two been married?
37,37 and married 13 years this March.

Nick
 
Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2008-01-25, 16:52

Trumpet: I hear you WRT to her way or the highway. When they dig their feet in on little stuff it can be really difficult to get around. I have family members who follow this thinking in everything they do. [My wife luckily, only has a couple types of tasks where she's like this, which I am now smart enough to never volunteer for. ]

[They have a specific way of handling every task, and even when they need or want help, they won't let you help them unless you do it *EXACTLY* the way they would do it. They will literally ask for help, and then turn it down if they find out you will do one thing differently. Anything. Wash blues and blacks together instead of apart. Load the dishwasher with glasses on one side vs. the other...

...the list is literally as endless as there are things in the world that a wife might do. It's just bizarre. It's as if all their sweetness and intuition and pragmatism goes straight out the window and they are now incapable of understanding the concept of "for many tasks, there are multiple ways of accomplishing that task with a proper result." Chics... can't live with 'em, pass the beer nuts.

The good news is, there is a simple solution to this behavior ,at least when you're not within eye-shot. But you must be an able-minded dude who is more careful than your average Simpson, Bundy or Romano. When you offer to help and your wife says "do this, this, this or it won't come out right", you say: "I understand / right / got it", and then when she's gone, do it your way. Then when you're done, the result will be exactly the same and she won't notice or care to ask how you did it. ]

Anyway, some women will load up their schedule with a bunch of "stuff" that "needs doing" (secret code for: I have arbitrarily decided it "needs doing now" even though there is no clear reason why it is needed at all, much less needed right away). Then after a while they become so stressed out they can't think straight and can't discern priority from minutia. Everything is a crisis to the woman following this type of pattern.

In fact often times, the crisis is what they subconsciously want. They want to feel busy, depended upon and seen as "wow, how did you manage to keep all that together this week?" Why they want to feel that way can be 100 different reasons ranging from genuine psychological problems, all the way to plain old insecurity or boredom.

For industrious, strong-minded women, it's often a case of what to do when the kids are at school vs. what they would've imagined themselves doing had they never had kids. It's sort of a compensation for "I could've accomplished so much". Female version of a mid-life crisis. You never hear it described that way but that's kind of what I think it is. Mid-life crises are almost universally attributed to men. Men having an affair, men buying a porsche, men quitting their job... whatever. But it happens with women too; just in more subtle ways.

In your wife's case it could be she finally felt compelled to get back out there but is having trouble letting go of the old system.

...into the light of a dark black night.

Last edited by Moogs : 2008-01-25 at 17:49. Reason: Added / modified bracketed bits
 
apple007
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: May 2006
 
2008-01-25, 19:35

Couple quick initial thoughts:

1. The OP was so long, I might have shot myself if I clicked "Submit" and discovered my internet connection had gone down. (Happened to me a couple times last week, but thankfully with short reply posts.) Just as a friendly tip to the masses, long message board posts like that might be best drafted offline.

2. The Jack Nicholson character in "As Good as It Gets" was 100% right when he said that a woman is simply a man minus accountability and reason.

As for my two cents' worth on the situation, taken together, the depression scenario seems very likely. Between the large weight gain, the general lethargy re: daily tasks, needing almost a year to get things together for rejoining the work force, etc., etc., this sounds like a woman who is either depressed or very seriously bored/uninspired.

Frankly, I think 'Trumpetman's post was more to blow off steam than ask advice. If more things are getting done at home, the wife is losing weight, and the money situation is almost $1,000 per month better, returning to the status quo ante would be foolish for about six different reasons, and I'm sure he knows that.

I would gently/politely bring up the depression issue, which she apparently shouldn't be offended by in light of the prior meds, and then take things from there. If she's diagnosed as being depressed, then new meds could do wonders. Otherwise, if she's not diagnosed as being depressed, then the foot-in-ass approach might be in order.

In either event, unless 'Trumpetman' was a selfish, misogynistic pig and just saw the light a few months ago, it sounds like he's not the source of the issues/problems here. But people only change when they want to, and on their time, so this might be a long and somewhat frustrating process/experience.
 
veryamusing
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
 
2008-01-25, 21:07

My parents' situation is similar to Trumpetman's, in that once my mother had given birth to my brother she also announced she wasn't going back to being a computer consultant. She stayed home with him until he was preschool-aged, and then became a preschool teacher herself. At the same time, she stopped doing household chores entirely, save laundry. This shocked my father and she didn't consult with him prior to making her decision. Our family's finances had gotten tighter and tighter since that time, and most recently my dad's sixteen-year tenure with his prior firm came to an abrupt end. Point being, we were living paycheck to paycheck and her paltry wage couldn't sustain us; and she wouldn't consider leaving teaching because to her it's a dream job.

In addition, one day we came home and she had cut her hair herself to just a few inches from the many (15+?) she had had. She also began taking naps from the time she came home from school (2:30pm-ish) until 9:00pm or so when she'd get up to have dinner (always leftovers from last night's takeout), watch a little television and then go right back to bed. It was all very strange to us and strained my parents' relationship very much. My dad has slept on the floor of our family room for a few years now. Talk of divorce has been bandied about, but they've been together for twenty-eight years, and when things are good they seem very good.

Eh, I don't know how helpful this post was in providing you with any methodologies for solving your problem, but I just wanted you to know that you're not alone, if you didn't already. What I would urge you to do is talk through any issues you're having and seek solutions that you can both agree on. Be flexible and be agreeable. And seek professional counseling (which I wish my parents would do/would have done), if you find yourselves at an impasse. Seemingly inconsequential differences, in my experience at least, are invariably the ones that cause the most harm. In my parents' situation, their differences cost them more than time or money, it cost them their happiness.

Best wishes, my friend!

P.S. Your wife being a strict disciplinarian at school, in my opinion, is probably exactly what her students need.
 
crazychester
Dick in the Abstentia, The
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2008-01-25, 22:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by apple007 View Post
Couple quick initial thoughts:

1. The OP was so long, I might have shot myself if I clicked "Submit" and discovered my internet connection had gone down. (Happened to me a couple times last week, but thankfully with short reply posts.) Just as a friendly tip to the masses, long message board posts like that might be best drafted offline.
Trumpty's been around a long time. It wouldn't surprise me if he didn't type the post in a text editor and copy and paste it afterwards to avoid such an occurrence. In any case, how do you know he didn't?

Personal post's usually need to be long. I assure you this is something plenty of us already know.

Quote:
In either event, unless 'Trumpetman' was a selfish, misogynistic pig and just saw the light a few months ago, it sounds like he's not the source of the issues/problems here. But people only change when they want to, and on their time, so this might be a long and somewhat frustrating process/experience.
He might be a conservative but IMHO he is a decent human being.


Anyway, sorry to hear this, Trumpty. I just kept thinking what's her underlying problem here. Because that's what it sounds like to me but I couldn't spot what her back story might be.

I reckon just do whatever the g says. Hell man, he takes the missus to these expensive, luxurious spas for weekends away and they've been married forever. Charm goes a long way with women. And I say that as a woman who was unexpectedly kissed on the cheek by some South American stranger she met in town this very morning.

Do you have any inkling as to what might really be behind her unhappiness? Working or not, she seems to be struggling to find the joy in living.
 
AsLan^
Not a tame lion...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Narnia
 
2008-01-25, 23:37

I often find myself wondering why my wife doesn't resemble Dagny Taggart.

I have just accepted the fact that my wife just wants to sit around all day doing nothing in particular.

One time I bugged my wife enough that she went out and got a job (she's a pre-school teacher funnily enough).

When I say bugged, I mean reasoned with her, dug into it to discover that yes she actually wanted to work and contribute to our small family (no children as of yet). In hindsight, I was just bugging her and she never really did want to go back to work. I must of caught her on a night when she was receptive to reason and logically concluded that yes, she would be happy if she returned to work.

She only lasted a couple of months before quitting and returning to her previous position as home body.

It bothers me to know we are missing out on extra income and bored people seem to actually spend more.

Why don't you have another kid Nick, that would let her go back home and allow you to continue building your dynasty.
 
Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2008-01-26, 10:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^ View Post
It bothers me to know we are missing out on extra income my wife is letting an important part of life pass her by, and bored people seem to actually spend more.

FTFY and QFT
 
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