[Fahrenheit]

Less than a month to go now, and as Jobs has confirmed his keynote, are we predicting some serious Apple lovage, or perhaps a more pathetic drizzle of hyped stats and developer tools?

As a kind of memory jog:

2007 - complete beta of Leopard, Safari for Windows and iPhone Dev tools.
2006 - Mac Pro, early preview of Leopard features
2005 - Intel baby!
2004 - New ACDs (haha, actually they haven't changed since then!), Tiger preview distro.
2003 - Panther, PowerMac G5..err new iSight as well? Oh and I think iApps.

2008 - ?

Would make sense to have an early preview of the next OS, probably just features that we can expect it to have, like we had in 2006. Jobs isn't afraid to get his new hardware out at WWDC, but its normally more high end stuff. I personally don't see a new Mac Pro coming, but a MacBook Pro? There's a definite maybe there.

New displays? Please Steve.

Thoughts plz

[pscates2.0]

I've not heard a thing about displays. They look great (the design, anyway). Not sure what else they'd do. they look nice with the iMac (same leg/base), so part of me thinks that as long as the iMac looks the way it does, so will the displays (even though I realize they're not "connected" or used together much, if at all). But it just makes the line look cohesive, and designed by the same people.

Would like to see the prices come down, however.

I still think we won't hear a peep about 10.6. Way too early (and it's not even on anyone's mind, IMO).

It'll be major iPhone love and attention.

And there will be a new device of some sort, I believe.

Other than that, I'm not really sure...

I think it will be a very "touch"-oriented affair...the iPhone, the SDK, the new iPhone, a new Multi-Touch device and some new things in that area.

[Gizzer]

Some sort of Touchy-Feely device that is essentially an Apple TV remote when it's in your living room, and/or an internet tablet when it's not.

OR

An Apple written app that turns your iPhone into a Touchy-Feely device to remotely control your Apple TV. Apple TV would then be upgraded to include Safari for Apple TV. All navigation/pinching/double taps all carried out on the iPhone (essentially making the iPhone a glorified mousepad but with more graphical/haptic feedback).

In fact the iPhone/Apple TV combo almost seems a no-brainer

[Yontsey]

Hopefully a redesigned Macbook.....I feel like a crack fiend waiting for this new thing. I'm starting to itch.

[veryamusing]

Originally Posted by Yontsey Hopefully a redesigned Macbook.....I feel like a crack fiend waiting for this new thing. I'm starting to itch.

You might have to find a hit somewhere else...

Mac Rumors is reporting, "Apple's Next MacBook Due in Q3 2008?"

The shipment target for this new MacBook is said to be in the 3rd quarter of 2008 for up to 3 million units.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 I've not heard a thing about displays. They look great (the design, anyway). Not sure what else they'd do. they look nice with the iMac (same leg/base), so part of me thinks that as long as the iMac looks the way it does, so will the displays (even though I realize they're not "connected" or used together much, if at all). But it just makes the line look cohesive, and designed by the same people. Would like to see the prices come down, however.

Here's how they could upgrade the Cinema Displays:

1. Higher resolutions. HD across the board - 1200 lines on the 20-inch, etc. Especially important if we see Blu-ray or RI.
2. DisplayPort.
3. iSight.
4. IR reciever.
5. LED backlighting.
6. New case, to match anything else Apple introduces. Thinner, 'cause it's weird that the Displays are thicker than the iMacs.
7. FireWire 800, maybe?
8. I think it's probable that they'll change the 23-inch model to a 24-inch, just so they can use the same display in their iMacs.
9. Lower prices. Seriously.
0. Maybe take the 20" iMac's TN panel and sell it as a consumer "Cinema (non-HD) Display" for supercheap Apple-cheap?

Something like this:

20" Cinema Display (1050 lines, TN) - $299, bundled with $499-again Mac mini for $799 (with a free keyboard and mouse)
20" Cinema HD Display (1200 lines, S-IPS) - $499
24" Cinema HD Display - $799
30" Cinema HD Display - $1,499

I'm not sure if Apple wants to get into the (historically low-margin) low-end monitor game, but it'd be nice if one could once again get a complete Mac system for $799.

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 I still think we won't hear a peep about 10.6. Way too early (and it's not even on anyone's mind, IMO).

I'm inclined to disagree, but we already have a thread about that. If you go by the original release date of Leopard (last summer), and take the low end of Jobs' 12-18 month figure, we could see the release of 10.6 at WWDC. Now, I don't think that's going to happen - I'm just saying that it's not too soon to announce it. I agree that MWSF '09 will probably be the big 10.6 show, though.

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 It'll be major iPhone love and attention. And there will be a new device of some sort, I believe. Other than that, I'm not really sure... I think it will be a very "touch"-oriented affair...the iPhone, the SDK, the new iPhone, a new Multi-Touch device and some new things in that area.

I just hope Apple doesn't forget that some people actually need keyboards, too.

Here's my dream WWDC:

3G iPhone (duh), iPhone OS 2.0, App Store, yada yada
New Mac minis, for the love of god
New black MacBook Pro with Blu-ray
Matching black Cinema Displays
10.6 announced for an April-June 2009 release

[hmurchison]

iPhone 3G with some very cool apps from Apple and others.
Leopard 10.5.3 with new iPhone integration
Revamped .Mac
Brief 10.6 discussion. 3 new areas of focus are discussed at a high level. 10.6 is going to be 64-bit only.
New Cinema Displays- DisplayPort/DVI interfaces

[Kickaha]

Best list I've seen yet, murch.

Add to that an announcement of a &*(%@ mini upgrade, and I'd be thrilled.

[pscates2.0]

Yeah, hmurchison lists the most reasonable, plausible stuff. Sounds very WWDC-y.

Still not sure about 10.6 mentions, but if you guys think so...

Yeah, I keep thinking that 10.5.3 is going to have some real tightness with the iPhone 2.0 software, in some sort of way we've not seen or thought of yet.

I can totally imagine something new/different on the .Mac front as well.

And updated displays and Mac mini, both of which have sat neglected and unchanged for quite some time, to round things out?

Good list...

[Kickaha]

I smell a big-assed iPhone update, or something unexpected...

Okay, so every year there are a couple of TBA sessions, to go over new technologies unveiled at WWDC. The more TBA sessions in the schedule, the bigger the surprises.

Here's a quick breakdown of the sessions counts by category at http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/sche...on&tab=session

Mac: 51
iPhone: 23
Mac & iPhone: 27
IT: 27

TBA: 19

*Nineteen* sessions are still unlisted. Considering that things like GPS will be under the Location Services for iPhone session, and that most of the 3rd party dev stuff is already announced...

What big push could they have that would unveil enough new tech for *19* sessions? FIgure one, maybe two for enterprise iPhone security, one for enterprise iPhone integration... maybe the rumored .Mac upgrades have significant impact on both iPhone and Leopard?

That's a lotta sessions to fill. Until I saw that, I expected pretty much murch's list, but... um... whaaaaaaaaaaaa?

[pscates2.0]

Definitely. I've been saying for a while that this is going to be a huge iPhone orgy. And any talk of Leopard, .Mac, 10.6, etc. is going to be through the iPhone filter. The iPhone is the iPod of 2008...and with good reason, because between enterprise, v2.0 and the SDK/third-party access, this is probably going to be the Device To Rule Them All.



Yeah, other phones will have more buzzwords and specific features. But let an average schmo try to use any of them with ease and see what happens...

That's the one area constantly trumps others on. They're not always first to the party with some feature or technology, and they don't always pack their stuff to the gills with every obscure format support or minority-requested capability. But they mop the floor with slick, fun ease-of-use and connectivity to everything else we use (our Macs, music, photos, etc.). And, frankly, that's how most of us live and work and that's why Apple is where they are (and why they're the 8,000lb. monkey) and that's why everyone else has spent the past 5-8 years playing catch-up, copycat, coattail rider and "oh, us too!"

So when this new iPhone comes out - just the 3G, third-party support and enterprise stuff alone is going to make it the most desirable thing ever. Tack onto that possible lower pricing, a sexy-ass design (it's Apple, is there even any doubt?) and whatever surprises or whiz-bang tech/feature they've kept under wraps, and WWDC 08 (and June/July in general) spells "iPhone owns your very soul...you won't be able to resist".



Hitting that 10 million mark should be cake...

[apple007]

Originally Posted by veryamusing You might have to find a hit somewhere else... Mac Rumors is reporting, "Apple's Next MacBook Due in Q3 2008?"

Well, Q3 starts less than 3 weeks after WWDC, so it wouldn't necessarily be a long wait.

Originally Posted by Roboman I'm inclined to disagree, but we already have a thread about that. If you go by the original release date of Leopard (last summer), and take the low end of Jobs' 12-18 month figure, we could see the release of 10.6 at WWDC. Now, I don't think that's going to happen - I'm just saying that it's not too soon to announce it. I agree that MWSF '09 will probably be the big 10.6 show, though.

Between Leopard being so new and the 3G iPhone and related news (2.0, etc.), I can't imagine Jobs will even mention 10.6. In fact, some of the mainstream articles I've read claim Jobs will spend a lot of time highlighting Leopard.

After the delayed Leopard release and then the fiasco that was 10.5 (and 10.5.1), I have to believe Apple will be a lot more conservative when it comes to announcements of anything 10.6.

Originally Posted by Roboman Here's my dream WWDC: ... 10.6 announced for an April-June 2009 release

This last item on your list baffled me. What, exactly, about Leopard has you feeling like it could even remotely be described as less than a year away from being replaced/obsolete?

[nikstar101]

Well i think it is mostly going to be about the iPhone 2.0 (both software and hardware). Maybe adding Blu-Ray to the Mac Pros with a graphics card to match. But Apple must update their Cinema Displays. It is driving me mad. I am in need of a new display but keep holding out for the update.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by apple007 This last item on your list baffled me. What, exactly, about Leopard has you feeling like it could even remotely be described as less than a year away from being replaced/obsolete?

Because Jobs himself said, after Leopard's release, that he was planning on continuing to release a new version of OS X every twelve to eighteen months? And the fact that, other than Leopard (which was delayed at the last minute because of the iPhone), every release of OS X has followed this pattern?

I don't find my logic "baffling" at all, really.

You act like Apple has to wait until Leopard is totally "obsolete" for Apple to release 10.6. This has *never* been the way Jobs has done things. It's not like Tiger was "obsolete"...until Leopard came out. What else could make Leopard obsolete, anyway? Is Apple going to wait until Windows "obsoletes" it?

Just because Leopard isn't "obsolete" doesn't mean Apple shouldn't make it better.

[Moogs]

My prediction: snoring will be heard at random point throughout the keynote. Everything will revolve around the phone platform pretty much and unless you're a mobile nerd / gadget freak, that's about as boring a topic as you could ask for. Don't get me wrong; I'm glad Apple has had such success with the iPhone but frankly cell phones are something that only fascinate the teen and 20s generation and corporate managers.

PS - MS isn't capable of "obsoleting" anything at this point unless they come up with a brand new computing paradigm, on the level of moving from command lines to a GUI and mouse. Which, the odds of that are roughly 586,000:1.

[pscates2.0]

You're way too generous with those odds.

It's more like eleventy-bazillion to one.

[Moogs]

You're right... I should fix that. How many zeros in a bazillion again?

[feidhlim1986]

I think it'll have iPhone 2.0, 3G iPhone as the main focus. Maybe Blu-ray in Mac Pros but not in macbook pros.
I think the reason we havent seen blu-ray yet is because Apple wants us the get our HD movies from the iTunes Store via AppleTV

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by apple007 This last item on your list baffled me. What, exactly, about Leopard has you feeling like it could even remotely be described as less than a year away from being replaced/obsolete?

Well, if a CPU only lasts about 3 years, then clearly Apple wants to at least be on a 1-1.5 year OS cycle to milk that short CPU life for some more revenue

[apple007]

Originally Posted by Roboman Because Jobs himself said, after Leopard's release, that he was planning on continuing to release a new version of OS X every twelve to eighteen months? And the fact that, other than Leopard (which was delayed at the last minute because of the iPhone), every release of OS X has followed this pattern?

Right, but for all intents and purposes, Leopard was released when 10.5.2 rolled out a couple months ago, and quite a few people still aren't happy with it (e.g., the people whose CPUs won't wake from sleep without a hard restart).

If you want to go strictly by Jobs' quote, then sure, Mac OS X 10.6 could be released anytime between November 2008 and April 2009, but as I said above, after the delays and bug-ridden Leopard release, do you really believe Apple will be overly aggressive about updating an OS that no one has remotely deemed to be past its shelf life?

Originally Posted by Roboman You act like Apple has to wait until Leopard is totally "obsolete" for Apple to release 10.6. This has *never* been the way Jobs has done things. It's not like Tiger was "obsolete"...until Leopard came out. What else could make Leopard obsolete, anyway? Is Apple going to wait until Windows "obsoletes" it? Just because Leopard isn't "obsolete" doesn't mean Apple shouldn't make it better.

That's what 10.5.3, 10.5.4, etc., will be for.

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Well, if a CPU only lasts about 3 years, then clearly Apple wants to at least be on a 1-1.5 year OS cycle to milk that short CPU life for some more revenue

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by apple007 Right, but for all intents and purposes, Leopard was released when 10.5.2 rolled out a couple months ago, and quite a few people still aren't happy with it (e.g., the people whose CPUs won't wake from sleep without a hard restart).

Developers use a programming strategy called "branching" which allows them to work in parallel on multiple versions. As it has in the past, Apple will continue to develop bugfix patches for the current major release version while simultaneously developing the next major release version. A fix for a bug in one development branch can likely be integrated to the other branch with relative ease, assuming it doesn't involve some major architectural changes.

Originally Posted by apple007 If you want to go strictly by Jobs' quote, then sure, Mac OS X 10.6 could be released anytime between November 2008 and April 2009, but as I said above, after the delays and bug-ridden Leopard release, do you really believe Apple will be overly aggressive about updating an OS that no one has remotely deemed to be past its shelf life?

And what of the 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, and 10.4 releases of Mac OS X? Al of their predecessors were arguably bug-ridden for various different reasons, but that didn't stop Apple from marching forward with development of the future release while releasing minor bugfix updates to the current release. I believe none of the major Mac OS X versions were "past their shelf life" before Apple started work on or even demoed functionality for the next version.

Originally Posted by apple007 That's what 10.5.3, 10.5.4, etc., will be for.

Again, there's nothing from stopping Apple from releasing minor patches while simultaneously preparing the next major release. Virtually all software development shops, big and small, do this. Also, keep in mind that the small x.x.X releases very rarely include new functionality; they are almost exclusively limited to big fixes and performance tweaks. So, it would be quite the feat for a minor release to include something that would "obsolete" the current major version.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by Brad And what of the 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, and 10.4 releases of Mac OS X? Al of their predecessors were arguably bug-ridden for various different reasons, but that didn't stop Apple from marching forward with development of the future release while releasing minor bugfix updates to the current release. I believe none of the major Mac OS X versions were "past their shelf life" before Apple started work on or even demoed functionality for the next version.

I don't dispute that at all; I'm just saying it seems like people are taking Jobs' quote as gospel when the quote itself seems to be subject to debate. Isn't there another quote from Jobs floating around in which he says the OS X update schedule would likely lengthen from the historical average?

Further, the last two major updates, 10.4 and 10.5, were both released 18 months after their predecessors. After the problems and delays Apple encountered in getting Leopard out the door, and then into usable condition, it seems highly unlikely Apple will try to develop and release 10.6 in less than 10 months (from WWDC to the speculated April 2009 release). (I'm well aware Apple could have begun development of 10.6 months ago, but with iPhone 2.0 and 10.5.2, which is reported to be the biggest-ever non-major update to the Mac OS, I doubt Apple has had an excess of programmers for 10.6 lately.)

I'm not sure if it's recorded anywhere, but I'd be curious to know where, on average, the current-gen OS X had been (i.e., version number), and/or the amount of elapsed time into a current-gen version of OS X, when the next major update was announced. Maybe I'm dead wrong, but it just seems very early for people to be expecting anything from Apple re: 10.6 when 10.5 is so new, and when Apple has so much more on its plate.

Originally Posted by Brad ... Also, keep in mind that the small x.x.X releases very rarely include new functionality; they are almost exclusively limited to big fixes and performance tweaks. So, it would be quite the feat for a minor release to include something that would "obsolete" the current major version.

Agreed. The problem I'm having is envisioning anything that would render 10.5 obsolete in the near term. I don't follow OS speculation all that closely, but is there anything missing from 10.5 that people are clamoring for (aside, of course, from Mail.app hiding at startup)? I'm sure Apple will work hard to dazzle us, but issuing an update just for an update's sake risks being little more than fancy bloatware.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by apple007 I don't dispute that at all; I'm just saying it seems like people are taking Jobs' quote as gospel when the quote itself seems to be subject to debate. Isn't there another quote from Jobs floating around in which he says the OS X update schedule would likely lengthen from the historical average?

And indeed they have. They were about 12 month. Now we're at 18+.

Further, the last two major updates, 10.4 and 10.5, were both released 18 months after their predecessors. After the problems and delays Apple encountered in getting Leopard out the door, and then into usable condition, it seems highly unlikely Apple will try to develop and release 10.6 in less than 10 months (from WWDC to the speculated April 2009 release). (I'm well aware Apple could have begun development of 10.6 months ago, but with iPhone 2.0 and 10.5.2, which is reported to be the biggest-ever non-major update to the Mac OS, I doubt Apple has had an excess of programmers for 10.6 lately.)

Features for 10.6 were likely sketched out before 10.4 was released. Yes, I said 10.4, that's not a typo. Looking 2-3 years down the road is just good planning.

I'm not sure if it's recorded anywhere, but I'd be curious to know where, on average, the current-gen OS X had been (i.e., version number), and/or the amount of elapsed time into a current-gen version of OS X, when the next major update was announced. Maybe I'm dead wrong, but it just seems very early for people to be expecting anything from Apple re: 10.6 when 10.5 is so new, and when Apple has so much more on its plate.

I see what you're going for here, but I can't agree. Heck, give 10.6 two full years after 10.5's actual delayed release... that means that next June, devs would have three months to prep for another major release. While that's entirely possible, it's not a lot of time for really utilizing new technologies. Of course, any sooner of a release, and they'd have *less* time, if nothing is said about 10.6 this year... which makes me think that we'll get just a teaser on 10.6's major technologies coming down the pipe, and nothing else. I wouldn't be at all surprised if much of what's in line for 10.6 comes in the form of info between the lines. "While you're working with NeatNewAPI, please keep in mind Issue Foo..." WWDC '09: "We're happy to introduce CoreFoo..." It's kind of how they've worked in the past. I don't, however, expect a full rundown of the 10.6 APIs or features.

Agreed. The problem I'm having is envisioning anything that would render 10.5 obsolete in the near term. I don't follow OS speculation all that closely, but is there anything missing from 10.5 that people are clamoring for (aside, of course, from Mail.app hiding at startup)? I'm sure Apple will work hard to dazzle us, but issuing an update just for an update's sake risks being little more than fancy bloatware.

Nobody really expected or asked for CoreAnimation in 10.5, and yet look at what it's managed to enable. Don't underestimate their ability to pull Really Neat Shit(tm) out of their hats. Laying the groundwork with Obj-C 2.0, gcc4.2, LLVM, and such in this release, gives them the opportunity to really go gangbusters in the next few years.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by Kickaha And indeed they have. They were about 12 month. Now we're at 18+.

The average was 12 months when OS X was new and immature. The recent average has been 18 months, and one can reasonably argue Apple should have taken 21-22 months to release Leopard rather than the public beta that was 10.5. (That might be a harsh assessment, but the shear size of 10.5.1 and 10.5.2 almost makes it look like 10.5 was largely re-written after release.)

(BTW, when I mentioned "another quote from Jobs," I was talking about a recent quote; i.e., from around the time Leopard was released.)

Originally Posted by Kickaha I see what you're going for here, but I can't agree. Heck, give 10.6 two full years after 10.5's actual delayed release... that means that next June, devs would have three months to prep for another major release. ...

Hey, I didn't say 10.6 would never be previewed or released. My argument in this thread is that next month's WWDC seems very early for anything 10.6, let alone a formal announcement of a ___ 2009 release. Apple could preview 10.6 in September 2008, or December 2008, or March 2009, and leave plenty of time for developers to get things right in time for 10.6.

That said, as good as Montevina looks, isn't Intel's 2009 release ("Calpella") supposed to the The Big One as far as new technology? And if so, couldn't/wouldn't that have some serious repercussions re: Mac OS X programming? I can't imagine Apple would rush 10.6 out in April 2009, only to have to undertake another massive rewrite, a la 10.5.2, because of new technology due from Intel around the same time. (I have no idea if Apple gets an early look at technology like that, or if 10.5.2 is evidence it doesn't.)

[chucker]

Originally Posted by apple007 The average was 12 months when OS X was new and immature. The recent average has been 18 months, and one can reasonably argue Apple should have taken 21-22 months to release Leopard rather than the public beta that was 10.5. (That might be a harsh assessment, but the shear size of 10.5.1 and 10.5.2 almost makes it look like 10.5 was largely re-written after release.)

There were in fact 30 months between Tiger (April 2005) and Leopard (October 2007), so you probably mean something like 36 months?

That said, Leopard has been solid for me from day one; none of the minor glitches I've had were showstoppers for me. So yes, I think your assessment is rather harsh. Most of the negative press I've seen focused around an APE-related problem that had been fixed for a while already, and that people mostly ran into because they did not even know they had APE installed, thanks to Logitech Control Center.

That said, as of 10.5.2 and Safari 3.1.1, Leopard still suffers a massive cookie deletion problem. I'm baffled Apple hasn't managed to fix this rather well-known issue in over six months. But I merely regard this as an annoyance (all those silly sites to log back in to!), and it hasn't kept me from using Leopard every day.

(BTW, when I mentioned "another quote from Jobs," I was talking about a recent quote; i.e., from around the time Leopard was released.)

Hey, I didn't say 10.6 would never be previewed or released. My argument in this thread is that next month's WWDC seems very early for anything 10.6, let alone a formal announcement of a ___ 2009 release.

I don't think there will be much of a "formal announcement", but I do consider an ever-so-tiny sneak preview likely.

Apple could preview 10.6 in September 2008, or December 2008, or March 2009,

How? By doing a second WWDC? They only have one opportunity per year to make such announcements and spread them well. So if they don't do it now, the earliest they could do it is indeed March 2009, and only by making WWDC insanely early next time around. (Announcing at MWSF makes even less sense.)

That said, as good as Montevina looks, isn't Intel's 2009 release ("Calpella") supposed to the The Big One as far as new technology? And if so, couldn't/wouldn't that have some serious repercussions re: Mac OS X programming? I can't imagine Apple would rush 10.6 out in April 2009,

As Kickaha alluded to, I expect Apple to take advantage of LLVM to make their code less dependent of such architectural changes.

only to have to undertake another massive rewrite, a la 10.5.2, because of new technology due from Intel around the same time. (I have no idea if Apple gets an early look at technology like that, or if 10.5.2 is evidence it doesn't.)

I have no idea what, aside from the update download being rather big, gives you the impression that 10.5.2 was "a massive rewrite". Even if you feel that it fixed a ginormous amount of issues, that still wouldn't make it a rewrite in any way, much less a massive one.

[Robo]

Regarding Calpella ("Core 3") and 10.6, last I heard, Calpella is due in Q2 2009, which is April-June - which just so happens to be the dates I pulled out of my hat for 10.6.

And again - I'm not saying Apple will demo every new feature in 10.6 at WWDC. That's what MWSF will probably be for, as Apple tends to keep its cards close to its chest with OS releases (lest they are copied). I'm just saying that they'll probably let us know that it's coming, and give it a name, and maybe give developers some hints as to where it's headed (per Kick's earlier example). They might release info on a few featured to whet our appetites, bit all the whiz-bang stuff will probably be saved for MWSF.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by chucker There were in fact 30 months between Tiger (April 2005) and Leopard (October 2007), so you probably mean something like 36 months?

Yup. I added 4 months to the average instead of adding 4 months to the actual elapsed time. My bad.

Originally Posted by chucker That said, Leopard has been solid for me from day one; none of the minor glitches I've had were showstoppers for me. So yes, I think your assessment is rather harsh. ...

That seems like a minority opinion from what I read here, and elsewhere, after the initial Leopard release. Several hundred bugs were identified fairly quickly that resulted in massive (biggest ever?) update downloads. (Hell, to this day, a huge number of users still can't reliably wake their CPU from sleep.) That doesn't sound like a rock-solid OS release to me.

Originally Posted by chucker How? By doing a second WWDC? They only have one opportunity per year to make such announcements and spread them well. So if they don't do it now, the earliest they could do it is indeed March 2009, and only by making WWDC insanely early next time around. (Announcing at MWSF makes even less sense.)

If the 10.6 info. is only an "ever-so-tiny sneak preview," as you put it, then how important could it possibly be to have people see or hear it in person? Jobs can't sneeze without three new web sites and 42 YouTube videos going online. I'm sure anything Apple says about 10.6, in whatever form or forum, will get more than its fair share of exposure.

Originally Posted by chucker I have no idea what, aside from the update download being rather big, gives you the impression that 10.5.2 was "a massive rewrite". Even if you feel that it fixed a ginormous amount of issues, that still wouldn't make it a rewrite in any way, much less a massive one.

Well, it was the biggest update ever to the Mac OS, so that counts for something. If not much was rewritten, then why was the update 343MB? Also, the under-the-hood optimizations (new Intel compiler and libraries) made 10.5.2, in the words of one news site, "the largest and most important intermediate system update ever released by Apple."

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by apple007 That seems like a minority opinion from what I read here, and elsewhere, after the initial Leopard release. Several hundred bugs were identified fairly quickly that resulted in massive (biggest ever?) update downloads. (Hell, to this day, a huge number of users still can't reliably wake their CPU from sleep.) That doesn't sound like a rock-solid OS release to me.

Law of the Internets #49: You're only ever going to hear from folks having problems. Haven't had any of those bugs bite me, for instance, and I'd say most people are in the same boat.

I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the bugs are from systems that weren't... how shall I put this delicately... mangled by APE, SIMBL or other hacks.

If the 10.6 info. is only an "ever-so-tiny sneak preview," as you put it, then how important could it possibly be to have people see or hear it in person? Jobs can't sneeze without three new web sites and 42 YouTube videos going online. I'm sure anything Apple says about 10.6, in whatever form or forum, will get more than its fair share of exposure.

Because it's PR?

Well, it was the biggest update ever to the Mac OS, so that counts for something. If not much was rewritten, then why was the update 343MB?

Because a lot of shit got recompiled using that new compiler?

Also, the under-the-hood optimizations (new Intel compiler and libraries) made 10.5.2, in the words of one news site, "the largest and most important intermediate system update ever released by Apple."

Yes, and in the words of one news site, Britney Spears is "the largest force in pop", so, y'know... trust the news sites to get it right as much as you feel comfortable to.

[MagSafe]

I think the 3G iPhone + App Store is a given really. I'm dying to get my hands on some games and make even more use out of my Touch

I've heard from a friend we won't be seeing any new ACD's being introduced, so I'm not expecting that.

I think they might unveil a new MBP as the timing & event would be appropriate, with all those 5000+ developers there waiting to upgrade.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Law of the Internets #49: You're only ever going to hear from folks having problems. Haven't had any of those bugs bite me, for instance, and I'd say most people are in the same boat.

True, but there were some fairly major bugs in 10.5 (and 10.5.1, and 10.5.2) that lead me to believe this was a below-average update by Apple standards. When I'm reading stories on MacFixIt about Mail.app messages going *poof* when transferred between folders, and about hundreds/thousands of people who can't reliably wake their (often brand-new) systems from sleep, that doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. I always expect bugs, especially in the new features of an OS update, but simple things like emails going AWOL, and CPUs that won't wake from sleep? Not so much.

Originally Posted by Kickaha Because a lot of shit got recompiled using that new compiler? ... Yes, and in the words of one news site, Britney Spears is "the largest force in pop", so, y'know... trust the news sites to get it right as much as you feel comfortable to.

Look, we can argue this forever, but a 343MB update to the Mac OS wasn't just a routine, ho-hum update to the OS. A lot of users were counting the minutes until 10.5.2 was released, and that fact notwithstanding, the sheer size of it made it noteworthy in the annals of OS updates.