[Curiousuburb]

I can foresee a new thread/Fark contest... pics of your Top Sites screengrab.

Including categories for: research & education, pr0n, bad design (aka MySpace), kids, vids, space, sport, travel, news, blogs, etc.

On shared use machines I can foresee a special WTF? category as 10 Death Metal links share top billing with your sister's Bratz or Little Mermaid page.

Points for originality, serendipity, and pixellation (to preserve No-NSFW rules for general forum threads).

I think we can predict a few musicians, car junkies, bug hunters (entomological and boolean logical), some gamblers (sport or investments), and a whole lot of geek.

[Kraetos]

The Good:

Top sites: Both the idea and the UI.
Coverflow: Normally I hate Coverflow but it works well here. I frequently forget the name or URL of a page I previously visited. But I never forget what it looked like.
Advanced CSS: The sooner we kill Flash, the better.
Nitro: Snappy™
URL & Search Suggestions: Way better than Inquisitor.
Developer Tools: Look cool. Looking forward to playing with them.
Auto-completing URLs: Fucking finally. We should of had this a year ago.
History Search: Extremely useful.
Tab dragging is fixed: See Daring Fireball for explanation.

The Bad:

Where the hell is the unified address + search bar? This is my favorite Chrome feature.

The Ugly:

Tab UI sucks. A lot. Tabs on top obfuscates the UI: Does dragging the top move the window? The tab? It's impossible to tell from just looking at it.

The answer to the question is rivalrous. Either it does one, or it does the other. The same target can't do both. So Apple added that teeny little indicator in the upper right corner to initiate a tab drag.

First, that's the symbol used to indicate where you need to click to resize a window, so now we're not only tangling mouse targets, we're also adding inconsistency to visual cues. Second, the mouse target to initiate tab dragging is roughly 90 pixels. What, did they just forget about Fitt's law?

For the love of god, I hope Firefox and IE follow don't form. Just because Google and Apple decide to implement a UI in a certain way doesn't mean it's good.

Astoundingly poor form, Apple.

[Is it 1981?]

Originally Posted by Kraetos Doesn't combine the search and address bar? That's one of my favorite Chrome features.

Seconded, it's an absolutely wonderful feature. So what if people cry that Safari's engineers and designers have ripped off Chrome – as long as it works at least as well as it does on Chrome (and possibly better implemented? Perhaps not, but worth a wonder) then those cries will die down in time.

Observations:

• It's considerably slower on my iMac G4 launching up and less responsive when using it.
• The new reload icon and placement seems very much like a real afterthought... hopefully it'll be better implemented later.
• On Tiger at least, the new address and search bars look very flat – almost Mozilla-esque – compared to search bars in other apps like Mail and iTunes. Nasty.
• In Safari 3, you could drag a link to an empty space in the tab bar and it would open that link in a new tab. Drag a link to the '+' icon in this beta and nothing happens. Again, I think this behaviour will change.
• Why hasn't the same UI love been taken for us still on Tiger (ie the Add bookmark button resembles a button from Leopard)?
• You can't drag a window from the gap between the tabs and the address bar. Just a minor irritation.
• Top Sites is a very nice feature and very nicely implemented, even if it's not new.

I remember reading that each tab in Chrome was a separate process or something so that one tab wouldn't slow the rest of the browser to a crawl – does this beta have this feature too?

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Is it 1981? I remember reading that each tab in Chrome was a separate process or something so that one tab wouldn't slow the rest of the browser to a crawl – does this beta have this feature too?

Nope, SquirrelFish is not multi-threaded.

... yet.

[MBHockey]

Does anyone else in this thread use OminWeb? How do you compare Safari 4 to OmniWeb 5.8?

OmniWeb's tab implementation and its native (and page-specific) ad-blocking really have won me over. The only thing I'm worried about is the development seems to have all but stopped on this amazing application, which means I'll be stuck choosing between Safari 4 and Firefox (which is the most un-mac like application I have ever used on OS X).

[kieran]

Not SquirrelFish anymore.

Now renamed as Nitro.

What's new in Safari 4

I like SquirrelFish better.

[Gargoyle]

Not sure if anyone else is suffering from this, but as I was writing a quick blog entry about Safari 4, I found a bug with the stacking order and WordPress' "modal" popups.

This seems to be OK if you grab the latest WebKit though.

[King Kovifor]

It's already amazing. Replaced Inquisitor, the CSS is fun, Top Sites I have a gripe or two with (but what can i do?), and the tabs took all of about 30 minutes to get used to.

All in all, I hope my dad doesn't kill me for upgrading. :P

[Bryson]

Originally Posted by MBHockey Does anyone else in this thread use OminWeb? How do you compare Safari 4 to OmniWeb 5.8?

I'm full-time on Omniweb. I love it.

The lack of development is a problem, yes. They've even posted on forums saying they would like to develop it, but OmniFocus for iPhone has gobbled up all their staff. That makes me sad.

Even then: the features of Omniweb still edge out Safari (4) for me. Plus the tab handling is awesome as opposed to Safari 4 where it is retarded.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Banana Ooo, sweet. Wish I knew about that earlier. Will have to read to make use of default reads to look at various options, though this really should have been in pref GUI. Thanks!!

It is. There has always been a Safari selectable pref for Command-Click to open a new tab. I even set that up to the middle mouse button so I don't even need to Command-Click. I don't remember how I used to have the Mighty Mouse set up to do the same thing, but I did and it wasn't a big deal then.

[InactionMan]

This beta is almost as awesome as Google Chrome on Windows. But they really, really need to steal the unified address bar/search bar from Chrome.

I love the tabs at the top. I love Top Sites. I love the snappy.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by InactionMan I love the tabs at the top.

Why? (Serious question. Not trying to be an asshole. Promise )

[pscates2.0]

Reading this thread has cooled my excitement on this. Let me ask a few questions:

1. I use Apple's Mail, with no third-party extensions, add-ons, etc.
2. Same with Safari
3. Will this beta maintain my bookmarks and other settings? I imagine so.
4. What are the chances I'll have a rough go of things?



Maybe I'll go grab it after all. Just curious if there were any "don't do it!" warnings/advice beforehand.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by kieran Not SquirrelFish anymore. Now renamed as Nitro. What's new in Safari 4 I like SquirrelFish better.

Yeah I saw that. I like SquirrelFish better too. Isn't this guy adorable?

[InactionMan]

Originally Posted by Kraetos Why? (Serious question. Not trying to be an asshole. Promise )

Mainly because I've grown so used to them in Chrome that I instinctively expect them at the top now. But it makes sense to me to separate them visually from the bookmarks bar and just unify the tab with site name. Obviously, the title may not be as clean if you have a zillion tabs open but I never have more the four or five in a window. I'm not entirely happy with the small area to move tabs but Chrome has the benefit of that extra blue strip at the top in Windows to separate the tab from the window.

That being said, I still don't use tabs too often in Safari because Exposé doesn't explode the window when you invoke it.

[scratt]

Originally Posted by Kraetos Yeah I saw that. I like SquirrelFish better too. Isn't this guy adorable?

SquirrelFish sounds good to me too!

Back to Safari 4...

I agree that the loading progress bar needs to come back. I miss that.

btw For any programmer types out there..

We learned today that Safari 4 Beta installs some debugging frameworks that are not compatible with Xcode 3.0 on Leopard. Xcode 3.1 and later are unaffected. The result is that Xcode may crash on launch (for values of "may" up to and including "will"). We've been told this hampers productivity. Uninstalling the Safari Beta doesn't remove the debugging frameworks, so the problem will persist. If you choose to install the Safari 4 Beta, please update Xcode to Xcode 3.1 or later (the current version is Xcode 3.1.2).

[InactionMan]

Ugh. I don't like where the refresh button is. I'd like it where the bookmark button is. They should bookmark button with the favicon or something. Or at least let me move the sonuvabitch.

[pscates2.0]

Okay, I've got it installed and using it. Hmmm...



I like some things right off the bat. But I despise a few others.

I guess that's what it's a beta.

The font at the top is different/weird. And the grey at the top is lighter than Mail and other apps. I thought it might have the flatter iTunes scroll bar, but it's still the gel-like thing.

But it's speedy and stable. Well, nothing weird for five or so minutes...

[thegeriatric]

I want the page loading progress bar within the URL bar back. Why couldn't they have given us a choice on or off? how friggin difficult would it have been!!

[Moogs]

Holy Balls, Omniweb now TEH FREEEE!

http://www.macworld.com/article/1390...2/omniweb.html

On the sad side, it's no longer under development but still, a pretty current / useful browser for now. I wonder if they'll update the webkit stuff occasionally.

[pscates2.0]

Originally Posted by thegeriatric I want the page loading progress bar within the URL bar back. Why couldn't they have given us a choice on or off? how friggin difficult would it have been!!

Ha...I just noticed that. Yeah, it was nice to see...

Well, be sure to let them know! It's a beta, so hopefully the final version will be stripped of some of this idiocy.

[Justin]

Just saw this on DF.net http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/0,3...9301219,00.htm

Safari 4 is faster than Chrome and chrome is bare bones browsers, that's impressive.

[Bryson]

Originally Posted by Moogs Holy Balls, Omniweb now TEH FREEEE! http://www.macworld.com/article/1390...2/omniweb.html On the sad side, it's no longer under development but still, a pretty current / useful browser for now. I wonder if they'll update the webkit stuff occasionally.

Both awesome and very, very bad.

On the bright side, there is no excuse now, peoples.

On teh downside, no more updates. Boo.

[Bryson]

Originally Posted by Justin Just saw this on DF.net http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/0,3...9301219,00.htm Safari 4 is faster than Chrome and chrome is bare bones browsers, that's impressive.

On 10.6, mind.

[Miko]

The progress bar denotes anticipation and can make the page(s) appear to take longer to load when waiting for one small image. With it being replaced by the spinning cog it probably makes it feel a little faster.

Just a thought?

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by InactionMan But it makes sense to me to separate them visually from the bookmarks bar and just unify the tab with site name.

Why? It separates the tabs from the actual page. Now, the tabs are touching the URL bar, which isn't as clear as touching the page itself. Pictures speak louder than words: you're more likely to identify the site you're on by what it looks like, not the URL, which is probably filled with all sorts of dashes and question marks and meaningless numbers. By putting so many (unrelated) UI elements between the site and the way you identify the site, well, it's just adding visual cruft.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "unify the tab with the site name." The site title was on the tab in the old implementation as well.

The worst part about it, though, is how it conflates the menu bar and the tab bar, for the reasons I've stated above. Changing a UI element that is consistent across every single other app (and operating system, for that matter) is a great way to confuse users. I can see how, if you're migrating from Chrome, you would have an easier time adapting. But picking up a mere 20 pixels isn't really worth the clusterfuck that is the compression of two different functionalities into one container.

The good news is...

http://swedishcampground.com/safari-...en-preferences

defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4TabBarIsOnTop -bool NO

The best part is that moving the tabs back to where they belong doesn't unfix the dragging implementation. It's perfect.

Oh yeah, and the lack of loading bar sucks. That little throbber on the left is useless.

Nuts to that.

defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4IncludeToolbarRedesign -bool NOdefaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4LoadProgressStyle -bool NO

WTF is going on in Cupertino?

[InactionMan]

Why? It separates the tabs from the actual page. Now, the tabs are touching the URL bar, which isn't as clear as touching the page itself. Pictures speak louder than words: you're more likely to identify the site you're on by what it looks like, not the URL, which is probably filled with all sorts of dashes and question marks and meaningless numbers. By putting so many (unrelated) UI elements between the site and the way you identify the site, well, it's just adding visual cruft. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "unify the tab with the site name." The site title was on the tab in the old implementation as well.

But the tab, which is now happily on top, has the site title. If I'm not mistaken the site name or page title has always been at the top of the browser window. When the tabs were below, would the title at the top screen change when you switched tabs? (I honestly can't remember). Now, all the open pages have their titles at the top and Safari just switches focus based on the selected tab.

And I agree that you're more likely to identify a site by it's appearance rather than it's name but I'm not sure how that applies to tabs at all given that you don't get little thumbnails either way. With tabs, you're doing to based on the name of the page - which is at the top of the browser window.

The worst part about it, though, is how it conflates the menu bar and the tab bar, for the reasons I've stated above. Changing a UI element that is consistent across every single other app (and operating system, for that matter) is a great way to confuse users. I can see how, if you're migrating from Chrome, you would have an easier time adapting. But picking up a mere 20 pixels isn't really worth the clusterfuck that is the compression of two different functionalities into one container.

How does it conflate the two? Not being an ass, I really don't get it.

[scratt]

I am sure it's a massive HD hog, but the cover-flow method of going through history is inspired!!

Often times I have visited a site earlier in the day and I want to go back to it later, or the next day, but I can't find it because the URL simply bears no resemblance to the content and I have two or three screens worth of text to scroll through.

This solves that 100%. Very nice indeed.

[pscates2.0]

I'm slowly warming to it all. It's a bit odd, some of the layout and text tweaks. I was never a big tabs user, so that Taps at Top thing isn't killing me (but it looks odd as can be).



But, barring any huge meltdown or system fouling, I believe I'll keep it, and be that much ahead of things come Snow Leopard...

[Axl]

Originally Posted by Moogs Holy Balls, Omniweb now TEH FREEEE! http://www.macworld.com/article/1390...2/omniweb.html On the sad side, it's no longer under development but still, a pretty current / useful browser for now. I wonder if they'll update the webkit stuff occasionally.

Wow. Next step is to make it open source.