[Fellowship]

I am not one to burn bridges as it is just not my way or my style. That said however I have to weigh in with my sorrow of what has happened over the last bit of time concerning the forums.

There was no need to split the AI community as far as I am concerned. So what if there were a few banner ads that were off. So what?

I had not visited Anders TRC for some time and it is troubling to say the least that Brad would post such a thread as to go against AI.com and suggest the venture of a new forum. Talk about spam and from an Admin????

Brad and Jack I have nothing against you both. I pride myself for being fair and a person who listens. I must say however that what you two have done is shameful. It is shameful that you "copy" the name of the forum first off. But as bad as that is you have done something worse... You have divided our community. I think this is offensive to everyone who has enjoyed Appleinsider.com for years. This stinks of a power play by a few power hungry geeks..

God I hate to say that but please correct me if I am wrong Brad and Jack..

Is it human nature to want ownership over something you spend great amounts of time on? Sure you bet that is human nature and understandable. Is it right to divide a well established community to satisfy this itch for more control and power? That is for you to figure out.

I can say from my vantage point it is sad just sad.

This would have never happened if Brad had not posted the thread in Anders TRC.

I don't want to hear any crying from Brad when he should have known full well that his actions by posting that thread could lead to nothing less than what has happened.

And all this Kasper this Kasper that....

You guys really need to learn a lesson.

Kasper is not the devil.

Appleinsider.com has been a home to a large community for a long time.

For you to do what you have done is an insult to many of us who would just assume we all be under one roof.

I hope you all like the "look" of this place and the fact it has no banner ads.

I don't get a lot out of it. Sure it looks great.

You know what? To me it is much greater to have a unified community under one roof.

Thanks for the damage and stress you have caused,

a disappointed Fellowship

[LoCash]

*yawn*

With all due respect Fellows, this is getting old. We've been through this little argument so many times before.

1) Kasper is the one that split the community, not me. He split the community when he banned people and forced them to find a new home.

2) Our problem wasn't with banner ads, it was with Kasper. Kasper is exemplifying every problem we have ever had with him right now. He is banning people for mentioning "appleinsider.org", turned into a total control freak over the boards, is bringing on new mods against the wishes of all of the current mods, etceteras.

I think we have a couple of other threads in this forum discussing this very problem, so how about you go post in one of those like you already have been? It's silly to start a new thread rehashing the same things you've been saying since the beginning.

Brad and myself were only proposing the idea of creating a new site. We were building a proof of concept to present to, among others, yourself. We were not in any way, shape, or form ready to do what we did. Your saviour over there Kasper, he banned a few people, started going all Joseph Stalin on the boards and his membership, and forced a lot of people to want to move to a better community where they weren't being censored, and banned and where they felt they had a voice.

And you want to talk about disappointment? Brad had already asked Kasper and Monish to remove all of the copyrighted images he created for appleinsider.com, as well as all of his own personal work he put into the templates and design for that site. Your saviour Kasper has failed to comply, and it has almost been a week.

AppleInsider is a generic name, not a trademark. An "Apple Insider" is someone that is providing inside information at Apple. But the images that Kasper is using at appleinsider.com, those are copyrighted material. He has been notified and has failed to remove the offensive material. He is also profiting off of Brad's copyrighted material because appleinsider.com makes money off of its website.

How dare you come start accusing me of all of this. Kasper forced a split of the community, Kasper is infringing on copyrighted material, Kasper is the one that decided not to talk to myself or Brad about what we were doing. We weren't ready to, nor did we want to, make a split. Don't you dare blame this on me.

[Quagmire]

I would also like to point out, since this site was set up in a big rush, Locash didn't have enough time to think up a good name for this website. I think when this whole stuff calms down, he will change the name of this website. Kasper is violating our rights to freedom of speech. If we can't talk about what is going on over at .com, people will start to distrust Kasper and leave. Locash has set up a safe haven for those people who realized that he was being a stalin and came over to .org. I do think Brad's actions by hacking into Kasper's account was over the deepend but, Kasper banning people for saying what is happening over here and where did brad go? That is even worse, so that eliminates the Brad thing. Over all I am even more of a disappointed Undertaker by what Kasper is doing over at .com. If the rumors are true about Kasper banning people about mentioning .org, I am surprised that I am not banned yet for mentioning .org.

[Luca]

Yeah, it wasn't like Brad or Jack set this whole thing off. It was brewing for a while, and yes, they were unhappy with Kasper's management of the place, but they seemed to be just fine with staying at AppleInsider.com indefinitely. Brad definitely made a mistake when posting as Kasper, but Kasper threw the first stone when he decided to make a preemptive move against the folks in the TRC. There was NO NEED to ban Jack and Brad. If Kasper was as reasonable a person as you, Fellowship, he would have talked it over and worked things out without causing all the crap that has happened. Instead he decided that there was no way to talk it over and immediately started waging war on the "dissidents." Sounds like a certain someone in a great position of power right now who you don't like, hmm?

Look, Fellowship, I understand why you might feel disappointed, but why would anyone want to do what Brad and Jack have done for their own good? Whoop de doo, they now are the owners of a very small forum with about 200 members. Not worth the legal flak they have taken, I don't think. You know that Jack and Brad are good people, and they wouldn't divide the community and grab for this so-called "power." They did what they thought was in the best interest of the community, or at least the regulars. Meanwhile, Kasper is trying to do what is best for him and him alone. You and I both know that he's not trying to squash .org just because he's a righteous guy who wants to keep the community together.

Maybe Brad and Jack made a few bad decisions. But they're pretty small when you compare them to what Kasper is doing now. Cease and desist letters? Police raids? Why the FUCK is Kasper so obsessed with nailing Brad? Does he actually have something to gain by going through all this shit, or is he just obsessed with bringing us down no matter what? I really don't understand why he's doing this.

[SKMDC]

good ol' fellowship, still playing both sides of the fences.
he has nothing against brad and locash except that they are power hungry geeks.
he's a bad guy, then a good guy, it's like he's hulk hogan or something. and the way everyone started kissing his ass when he finally stopped his constant name-calling made me want to vomit.
a leopard doesn't change it's spots, especially self-righteous ones.

[Barto]

I don't feel the same way about this that you do Fellowship.

Yet I AM disappointed that people seem incapable of tolerance and civility in this thread!

I left .com because I didn't like the actions taken by the current management there: they divided the community by reacting to the TRC thread. Yes, this wouldn't have happened if the TRC thread hadn't existed BUT it also wouldn't have happened if the current .com management didn't throw themselves into an orgy of locking, banning and deleting. To say to Brad and Jack "You have divided our community." is I believe false.

That said, what is so repulsive about a view that differs from most people here? What is so repulsive about hearing that "Kasper is not the devil" - he isn't, only a few "crusaders" ever acted like he was. There is no need to behave like children here, although I guess it is a microcosm of the situation at large.

Barto

[InactionMan]

I'm trying to figure out a reasonable way to reply to your post FCiB, but it's hard.

First, clearly this is something you want to talk about. Why not start a thread at AI.com? I think there are quite a few people over there that would seriously appreciate it. I think all members have a right to know what happened, and as Costique has proven, not everyone does. He is a fairly active member of the .com 'community' and yet only found .org this week. I think a rational discussion of the split at .com could go a long way in clarifying and possibly resolving the current situation.

Second, your sig.

I don't pick sides, I choose understanding

Seriously, given the content of your post this is borderline offensive.

Third, Brad, LoCash and Alcimedes had concerns about the future of the site and presented their concerns to the community to get their feedback. They put in more time and effort into creating a new look and direction for the site and asked members of the community to help them design and code what could have potentially been the new AI.com. How is that spamming? How is that a sign of anything but their desire to improve the community?

And how is them getting banned and launching this site a power move? If a good number of the core .com members hadn't agreed with them and decided to make a go of .org with them there would just be three lonely Admins over here trying to start flamewars with each other to entertain themselves.

Ack. I used to post at both sites but everyday there are fewer reasons to even visit .com. Too Bad. Though I won't go so far as to say it's caused me 'sorrow'.

I think you need to reexamine the intentions and actions on both sides of the split. Hope you come around in a bit cheerier mood next time, FCiB.

[SKMDC]

Originally Posted by Barto Yet I AM disappointed that people seem incapable of tolerance and civility in this thread!

yeah well i guess he never called you an asshole. i never laid a finger on him over there, (in a public thread) i did it all by PM.
but i'll be damned if i'm going to put up with his crap here.

[Fellowship]

Originally Posted by LoCash *yawn* With all due respect Fellows, this is getting old. We've been through this little argument so many times before. 1) Kasper is the one that split the community, not me. He split the community when he banned people and forced them to find a new home. 2) Our problem wasn't with banner ads, it was with Kasper. Kasper is exemplifying every problem we have ever had with him right now. He is banning people for mentioning "appleinsider.org", turned into a total control freak over the boards, is bringing on new mods against the wishes of all of the current mods, etceteras.

To address point #1)
I thought Brad's thread in the Anders TRC was grounds for the termination of Brad? No??

You say you were "forced" to find a new home..... does not ring true

To address point #2)
"Our Problem" I am glad you took it upon yourselves to split the community. You and Brad had some issues with Kasper. Now the entire community is split. Fine, Life goes on. But I had not one issue with Kasper and I would be willing to bet most people at AI.com have no problem with Kasper.

Kasper Kasper Kasper is like Bush saying WMD WMD WMD.... say it a million times and people will just get used to it.

I will be honest I do not have one thing agaisnt you guys personally I am just saddened at the results of this project of yours.. My Reply to your point #1 above is the bulk of my unbelief in your statement regarding "finding a new home" You guys brought this "need" to find a new home upon yourselves when you post a thread as Brad did in Anders TRC.. NO???

Somebody please address this for me...

I know I mentioned the word geek in my post above and I am a geek too for that matter. I did also articulate the understanding of wanting ownership of something. My point is that the itch for ownership has split the community but hey... the milk is spilled.

I think the entire thing is unfortunate.

Fellows

[Fellowship]

Originally Posted by superkaratemonkeydeathcar yeah well i guess he never called you an asshole. i never laid a finger on him over there, (in a public thread) i did it all by PM. but i'll be damned if i'm going to put up with his crap here.

I have never called you an asshole.

What in the world are you saying?

Fellowship

[LoCash]

In our thread, if you bothered to read it instead of make assumptions, we were soliciting feedback from the "regulars" on AI. We told them, "Look, here is what we could do" and asked them if they would like that. We kept revealing more information about it as we planned it and continued to receive positive feedback from the members. A few mods came and chimed in, etceteras.

We didn't want to split the community so much as we wanted to provide a better web site; a better user experience for those that love AI. We just couldn't continue working with Kasper. Don't you dare go get all political with me on this and compare it to Bush. We've outlined the problems WE had with Kasper. You never had them because you never had to deal with the kid the way we had to. We weren't even really sure how or when we would do it.

Now, if I was Kasper, and I saw that thread, I wouldn't ban people. In all honesty, I'd probably contact the admins that brought it up privately and try to solve the problem amicably. I would have attempted to do that because I would have foreseen what banning those people would do. Because I would have known that it would split the community and be harmful.

I think brad and alcimedes would both back me up when I say that our ultimate goal in what we were doing was to prove to Kasper that some things need to change, and if he would play ball with us, we could all change them for the better.

As to finding a new home, Fellows, I can't get onto appleinsider.com anymore unless I go through an anonymous proxy or from some other terminal. My IP is banned. BANNED. Kasper wasn't going to let me back in there no matter if I began publishing appleinsider.org. I was exiled from a site I nurtured. I had nowhere to go. Neither did Brad. All the members were asking me what happened. So I opened appleinsider.org, almost all of the regular members from appleinsider.com have registered and post. Many of them have been banned from appleinsider.com too. Their only way to continue to be in touch with their community is on this site.

So no, I don't think the TRC thread was ban worthy. It should have been a wake up call to Kasper, and if Kasper cared one shit about the community, he would have foreseen what his actions the day he banned myself and Brad would have done. He should have said to himself, "Wow, I'm really doing something wrong. I don't want to fuck over AI." Instead, he fucked himself, and his continued legal threats and harassment of myself and others here are his way of convincing himself that he did not.

Look, this is a circular argument between us. Instead of focusing on whether or not Kasper should have banned people, let's look at what he is doing now. He is censoring people left and right, I've heard he is even READING PEOPLE'S PRIVATE MESSAGES, and he wants to hire on ***** as a moderator despite the wishes of the other mods/admins ONLY BECAUSE ***** is the one that told Kasper about the bloody Tension Relief Clinic in the first place, and in turn, about the thread Brad and I had going. I heard you were even the ONLY mod/admin there to AGREE with Kasper on that. I mean, you guys have yourselves a real mess over there, and it's because Kasper has turned into a control freak. We just want our little site here on the Internet to live. So why don't you go back to appleinsider.com and tell Kasper to come off the damn cross, because we could find much better use for the wood.

[alcimedes]

Originally Posted by Fellowship That said however I have to weigh in with my sorrow of what has happened over the last bit of time concerning the forums.

[Paul]

heh so now kasper is on the cross? I thought brad was crucified

oh and jack.. please, in the interests of keeping this as civil as possible would you edit your above mention of the mole?

just put ***s for now... and if he gets to be a mod... well then thats that...

but I don't think dropping names will help things....



just my opinion...

-Paul

[Luca]

Originally Posted by Fellowship To address point #1) I thought Brad's thread in the Anders TRC was grounds for the termination of Brad? No??

No.

Originally Posted by Fellowship You say you were "forced" to find a new home..... does not ring true To address point #2) "Our Problem" I am glad you took it upon yourselves to split the community. You and Brad had some issues with Kasper. Now the entire community is split. Fine, Life goes on. But I had not one issue with Kasper and I would be willing to bet most people at AI.com have no problem with Kasper.

Maybe because you don't understand what was happening. You were just "saddened" by everything afterwards.

Originally Posted by Fellowship Kasper Kasper Kasper is like Bush saying WMD WMD WMD.... say it a million times and people will just get used to it.

Actually, I see it this way. Kasper = Bush, and AI.org founders and supporters = people who dislike Bush. You = people who love Bush. Those people get on our case for just being "mindless Bush bashers" even when we explain our legitimate position, just as you continue to hound us with your fake "concern" when really all you want is for us to shut up and live with things the way they are.

Originally Posted by Fellowship I will be honest I do not have one thing agaisnt you guys personally I am just saddened at the results of this project of yours..

Hah. Nothing against us? You sure seem to be pretty pissed at everyone here, as if you're so much better for just going along with whatever the jerks (and non-jerks) at AI.com tell you.

Originally Posted by Fellowship My Reply to your point #1 above is the bulk of my unbelief in your statement regarding "finding a new home" You guys brought this "need" to find a new home upon yourselves when you post a thread as Brad did in Anders TRC.. NO??? Somebody please address this for me...

No, we didn't. We were merely exploring our options. Kasper could have avoided ALL this while still addressing our legitimate concerns if he had tried talking to the mods and admins first, but no, he freaked out instead. And he was the one who started it. I thought you were a proponent of diplomacy. It could have really done some good here, but I guess diplomacy is a last resort for someone like Kasper.

Originally Posted by Fellowship I know I mentioned the word geek in my post above and I am a geek too for that matter. I did also articulate the understanding of wanting ownership of something. My point is that the itch for ownership has split the community but hey... the milk is spilled. I think the entire thing is unfortunate. Fellows

Well boo hoo. We already explained that it's not about a power grab, but I guess you only want to talk, not listen.

[Defiant]

Fellows, please take some time to read these threads, if you really want to rehash it all.

They provide a good overview of what was going on, and they're much better than the 'official' view here on .org, and that's mostly because they're long Q&A's. (Speaking of an official view, where is the one from Kasper about the situation? He promised one shortly after all this started.)

Who are we missing?
Who the mole is?
Comments and Questions a very good read
What is the beef against AI.com, Kasper, et. al. ?
Tension Relief Clinic: wtf?
Cease and Desist Letter Received


And if you want to talk, Fellows, you know where I am.

[SKMDC]

Originally Posted by Fellowship I have never called you an asshole. What in the world are you saying? Fellowship

i'd show you my p/m's about it, but it's been disabled. convenient.
i will say that you apologized and said it was the heat of the battle blah blah blah.....
and then called me a name a few weeks later.

[thegelding]

i agree with the suggestion that locash remove the mole's name...serves no purpose...(done, thanks admins)

as for all this...can this be the last time we talk of this, please??

the way i see it is this....(if anybody cares)

ok, fellows is an emotional guy, i am an emotional guy too

but the split is done and most likely was inevitable

i came to appleinsider long before the blackout, mostly as a lurker, to learn and grow and i slowly found a voice, my voice, there and started posting

then the blackout came and i was sad...only to find it reborn from the darkness by a few of the faithful...much work, much effort, much love went into it, and still it almost falter and almost died a few times...still it limped along and grew and strengthened...then, many years later kasper bought the site from macnn and this was watched with a worried eye by some running the forums...then the rift...

is there blame on both sides?? hell yeah...but for me it is simple...why did i come to appleinsider? why did i stay?? was it for the front page? for an owner i never messaged with or read posts from?? no

i came and stayed because a young man named starfleetX would be patient with me and answer all my newbie stupid questions, because md3jack would send links to sites of squirrels doing disco, because murbot would post pictures of STFU to me when i acted stupid...because i felt part of a community BECAUSE of the people there, not the owners, not the news breaks...i can get that anywhere...

so i am mostly here, but still some at AI.com...and i will likely stay mostly here and sometimes there...unless amorph and others i care about make that site even better...this is a challenge to .com

now it seems unlikely that .com and .org with merge, so what is left?? .com is unlikely to fold, it makes money for kasper, it has a large base, it will live on

.org is unlikely to fold because it has no need to make money so the only thing that would end it for .org is the people running it to grow bored with it...

i really like the people at .com (amorph, programmer--both so smart, midwinter, pplam, giant--my liberal pals in arms, artman for telling all about his life, powerdoc for being my medical buddy, etc etc) and i will visit them often...but the people that made AI AI are here...thus, so am i

new subject


g

[Cybermonkey]

Ah, Fellowship. he who presumes he is holier than thou. personally fellows the only thing i hated about .com was your smug, arrogant bible bashing threads. Your nothing special, move along get over it, Like all things good it's choice that makes a community and it's choice that we choose to post on .org.

So with that said, keep it to your self as we are here. If People wish to post either here or .com or both as I'm sure most do it's our choice to make. If .com goes belly up from lack of visitors, then it's not the fault of Brad etc it's the fault of pig headed morons who stayed solely at .com because they don't like change and can't offer a decent convo without resorting to 'Praise the lord' speeches.

My 2 cents, pennies, Euro's

[thegelding]

Originally Posted by Paul I'd like to know why the things that were said in that thread were not upheld.... this whole thing is just getting really out of hand...

done and done


g

[crazychester]

Hi Everybody!

(Hi Chester! Remember you're not posting.)

I know I'm not posting - this is just a figment of your overactive imaginations.


Fellows - first post, lovely; sad but lovely.

g - second last post, lovely; sad but lovely.

Jack - low, low act man.

Cybermonkey and others - try to read people's meaning and not just their words.

billybob - I thought through what your posts said in the thread about PMing at .com and I think they probably did read PMs. Either that or they simply started banning and blocking on the basis of people's support for this site. Which of course, would be stupid in your case because you're one of the more reluctant and thoughtful members here.

What does this mean? Just that the pool of dirty rotten scoundrels got a bit bigger. After the last couple of weeks, I'd think twice (no make that thrice) about using the PM system of either site for anything I wanted to remain confidential.

You know, given how fond some of you are of saying "it's just an internet forum", you sure are willing to go to a lot of trouble over it. Without meaning to be condescending to the young 'uns, this has always been nothing more than a stoush between 3 or 4 twenty-somethings. And as far as I can tell, only a very small handful of members wanted it to play out this way. Not the community at large. If anybody was in their right minds we'd all bugger off and slow the traffic at both sites to a crawl and show them who's really in charge.

But that isn't going to happen. And the split isn't going to be repaired.

I've watched as an outside observer a few internet forums implode. Usually the pressure builds up, then the board goes nuts and then the split or whatever happens. But this one's been so, well so very AI. Intrigue, skullduggery, cloaks and daggers.

Fascinating. Pointless; utterly, utterly pointless but fascinating nonetheless.

From my perspective, this is all very inconvenient. Just an internet forum would do me fine. One forum, one community. Two just seems like overkill. I'm off to the Big Smoke for a few days and I'd love to come back and find you'd all pulled your heads out of your collective arses. But that isn't going to happen either.

You're two great bunches of people. You were just bigger, better, stronger as one great bunch of people.

If there's one word to describe all this, that word would be "Hope". Hope they stop fighting, hope they show some respect for privacy, hope they stop abusing their power, hope the community wins.

Hope. Yep, that's the word.

[pscates2.0]

They're just two sites/forums now. No going back, considering all that's happened. I float between the two, most probably do.

I like different things about each one: .com has a more hopping FH section, but I like the General Discussion and Genius Bar forums here a bit more.

The other site has more activity and buzzing, but sometimes I dig the smaller, cozier nature of .org.

.org does indeed, IMO, look a bazillion times nicer and seems less strainful on the ol' peepers.

I would imagine only those that CAN'T post at .com (due to banification and shitlist-occupation issues) wouldn't bounce between the two.

Fellowship echoes a couple of points I've made over the past few weeks, AND since he's about the most normal, rational and easy-to-talk-to person that's ever inhabited AppleInsider, I always tend to lend and ear and usually don't associate his posts with utter horseshit like I do others.



Kind the E.F. Hutton of the joint, to me. When he talks, I tend to listen.

But again, this is what it is. Two sites, two groups, two looks, two approaches. Yeah, kinda sad that it's not one big happy family. But it's not the WORST thing that's ever happened to me either.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by crazychester Hi Everybody! (Hi Chester! Remember you're not posting.) I know I'm not posting - this is just a figment of your overactive imaginations. ... Hope. Yep, that's the word.

I am sure most of us understood what fellows said. We respect what he said. Locash has set up another community thinking the old was corrupt by Kasper's actions. We chose to come to this community because we thought we could just split and be left alone. Truth is we can not be left alone because people at .com are still saying," Why did Locash split the community?"( isn't this similar to the Confederacy ? They wanted to split and be left alone but, the union wouldn't allow it) People can choose this community and be respected. People could come to both communitys. People could go to .com. We would all respect their descision. The problem is Kasper won't respect our descision. Intill he does, this unneccessary war between Locash and Brad vs Kasper will continue. Kasper is threatening Brad and Locash with lawsuits against what? Having a trc? Respectfully requesting stuff to be changed? Locash and Brad should be the ones creating the lawsuits because of Kaspers's power hungry ways by depriving us our right to freedom of speech, and many more only known to 3 people Locash, Brad, and Kasper. We all respect Fellows descision staying with .com. I am sure he respects our descision joining and sticking with .org.

[Fellowship]

Hi you guys,, It ate at me today the things I said in frustration about the events of the past days.

I am sorry for my words of frustration. I am sorry for using the words power hungry geeks.

I am sort of an emotional guy and sometimes I make mistakes that bother me after I run my mouth "sort of off the hip" if you will.

I have had some sinus issues this week and not had the sleep I needed and it revealed a tone which I do not want any part of.

Please know I am regretful of my words which were said in a way that hurt..

With respect,

Fellowship

[_Ω_]

No need to apologise Fellows.

This situation has been a trying experience for some people who have invested a lot of time and effort into AI, and it is hard when it gets ripped out from underneath you.

I am sure that most here would not mind if you popped in to say hello every once and awhile.

[NosferaDrew]

Pulleeaassee!
Take it all back and everything's fine?

[Defiant]

I had a lengthy discussion with him about this topic yesterday, after he posted this thread.
For me, it's all good.

[Matvei]

I agree with Fellowship here. It is all so very sad...

[SKMDC]

it's the same apology i would get when i pm'ed him about name calling back when.
after the second time i started taking his mea culpas with a grain of salt.

[groverat]

I think it shows perfectly how much this site about the "community" when LoCash responds with petty, childish bile to a perfectly respectful post by Fellowship.

[Cybermonkey]

That wasn't a respectable post at all, It was a bitch slap and even Fellowship has acknowledge that by apologising.