[Wrao]

I really do not like the new expose.

Okay, here's a list of grievances with the new Exposé.

It defaults everything to a grid format. As a result, window resizing is drastically changed.

* My safari window, which normally takes up about 80% of my screen(and is by far the largest open window of any application) is reduced to being smaller than a standard iChat window.

* The order of items in the grid does not make very much immediate sense, and regularly I'm finding that windows are jumping to the other side of the screen and then resizing to about 40%.

* Sometimes it is too fast, and windows seem to almost instantaneously jump from one side of the screen to another.

* When there are only two windows open, they are resized very dramatically and placed on top of one another, instead of side to side. This is very visually disorienting to me, and it literally kind of hurts my eyes. It is also less intuitive, and due to the drastic zooming, reduces the amount of clickable space that will get me to where I want to go. In the past, Exposé has always felt very autonomous for me. I would flip in and out of it casually and quickly. But now, even as I start to get the hang of the new organization, it still requires more mouse movement to achieve the same results.

* When using 'application windows' all other windows disappear, this is also visually disorienting for me, especially when the 'other' windows were large windows that otherwise occupied most of the screen. Additionally, this is functionally deficient, as, in the past, I could still see what was going on in the other windows while in expose, which was helpful.

* Minimizing a window is effectively useless now, because as soon as you activate Exposé, all minimized windows are revealed and placed in their own row beneath the main row. This has the double effect of fucking up the main grid's sizing(generally making things smaller and more awkward. I minimize windows because I want to 'close' them without closing them. When a window is minimized, it is because I don't want to see it. Now that they pop up in Exposé, it largely defeats the purpose(for me) of minimizing in the first place.

* I haven't confirmed this, but it feels as though windows are changing where they appear in the grid in a very "Windows tab management" sort of way. Seems as though the window organization changes based on which window you click on. This is very disorienting and inelegant.


I just don't get it. The old Exposé was not flawless, sometimes it would reorganize windows in very bizarre ways. But, for the most part it was very intuitive, and it 'felt' good to use. Difficult to describe really, but even since the first time I ever used Exposé it just made sense. This is by far the most disappointing new feature in Snow Leopard.

[chucker]

I prefer the new Exposé by far, but I suppose this is somewhat subjective. I like the grid, I like it giving each window (regardless of original size) equal space, I like that minimized windows are now included in their own space, and I like how stuff fades out. Just a note, though:

Originally Posted by Wrao * The order of items in the grid does not make very much immediate sense, and regularly I'm finding that windows are jumping to the other side of the screen and then resizing to about 40%.

You can press cmd-1 to order by title, or cmd-2 to order by app. You can also press space to zoom in on individual windows.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Wrao I really do not like the new expose. Okay, here's a list of grievances with the new Exposé. [...]

Oh god.

I agree with you 100% and that makes me very . I can only hope that someone will find a hidden defaults setting for bringing back the old mode. Otherwise, it's off to apple.com's feedback pages...

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by chucker I prefer the new Exposé by far, but I suppose this is somewhat subjective. I like the grid, I like it giving each window (regardless of original size) equal space, I like that minimized windows are now included in their own space, and I like how stuff fades out. Just a note, though: You can press cmd-1 to order by title, or cmd-2 to order by app. You can also press space to zoom in on individual windows.

Yes, but when the primary function of Exposé is to quickly navigate between applications and their windows, these expanded features, as nice as they are, are meaningless to me, because the central function of the application has been irreconcilably diminished. I will say that when you are in the Exposé "environment", as well as switching between application view and all windows view, it does make sense. But, as soon as you leave that environment and begin to interact with how your windows were arranged normally, it very quickly becomes a mess. There is far too much movement now, as the program is forcing free floating windows to align to a grid that, although it has organization options, functionally ends up feeling very random. The old Exposé was more directly random, but it never(well, very rarely) made drastic jumps in size and positioning, and it generally did a much better job filling space.

I'm curious why you feel that a grid is a superior method for Exposé considering that windows in the finder are free floating and not aligned to any grid, and do you agree with Exposé resizing the largest window on your screen to make it the smallest window in Exposé? Or shrinking windows more than is necessary, leaving nearly half the screen as a dead zone? Also, do you have a justification for allowing Exposé to reveal minimized windows?

It seems to me that the grid method is just lazier. I wouldn't be surprised if they removed whatever algorithms used to calculate window sizing and positioning in pre-SL Exposé specifically as a way to cut down on code. Hopefully they can find a happy middle ground between the features they brought to the new Exposé and the usability of the old Exposé.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Wrao I'm curious why you feel that a grid is a superior method for Exposé considering that windows in the finder are free floating and not aligned to any grid,

Precisely because Exposé is a separate mode. I use Exposé either to quickly find a window, or (more typically) to see what another window has been doing. I don't care where that window was or how big it was; I care that I find it.

and do you agree with Exposé resizing the largest window on your screen to make it the smallest window in Exposé?

It doesn't become the smallest window. It becomes exactly as big or small as all the others, which helps with visual memory. The behavior feels far more predictable to me.

Or shrinking windows more than is necessary, leaving nearly half the screen as a dead zone?

I suppose that one is debatable, yes.

Also, do you have a justification for allowing Exposé to reveal minimized windows?

Because I want to know which other windows are around?

I've been using it for a few weeks and found it to be a huge improvement. The Dock integration means I can easily peek into what another app has been doing, and the normalization of window sizes means less clutter.

It seems to me that the grid method is just lazier. I wouldn't be surprised if they removed whatever algorithms used to calculate window sizing and positioning in pre-SL Exposé specifically as a way to cut down on code.

By contrast, I expect that the current method requires more code.

Originally Posted by stratotom Can Exposé still be activated by the 4-finger downwards swipe on the multi-touch trackpads?

Yes.

[Batman]

So I've been running Snow Leopard for about a day now, and everything has been snick-snick smooth. Application load times are much faster, the Finder responds much more quickly, and Safari seems even more turbo-charged than usual. Everything is a-ok ... well, except Expose.

I'll admit I was a bit miffed at first about the new Expose behavior, but I guess I'll just get used to it after a while. I also realize that, for large numbers of windows, the new Expose behavior is probably more efficient. But what really bothers me is the lagging.

I'm using a 2009 Macbook Pro, and even in "Higher performance" mode, the animation into and out of Expose lags intermittently. About one out of three sessions, it works fine, but for the rest it lags horrendously. Not only that, but Expose's just been all around glitchy, with incorrect application windows jumping to the front, Expose not wanting to deactivate or randomly activating the wrong mode, ...

I understand that Snow Leopard is still in its first release, and that these bugs will be worked out in the first couple of point releases. But still, you'd think that they'd try and iron these things out before shipping the OS.

[Wrao]

Thanks for the reply. Ultimately, most of it is user preference, and it stands to reason I may adapt to the new methods over time, however, I still contend that the new Exposé has sacrificed speed and efficiency of use for a more robust feature set that, although it aides with overall window management, actively impedes against application and window switching

Originally Posted by chucker Precisely because Exposé is a separate mode. I use Exposé either to quickly find a window, or (more typically) to see what another window has been doing. I don't care where that window was or how big it was; I care that I find it.

Yes, it obviously comes down to usage habits, however I think that Exposé is used far more frequently by most users for application switching rather than gathering information about what applications are doing what. The new Exposé is inferior for quick application switching.

It doesn't become the smallest window. It becomes exactly as big or small as all the others, which helps with visual memory. The behavior feels far more predictable to me.

I can take many screen shots to disprove this. But, even if this is how it is programmed to work, it is still a bizarre choice, when you have a window that, outside of Exposé consumes almost the entire screen, and then inside of Exposé it becomes smaller than an iChat window, that is disorienting, it leaves excessive unclickable space, and it requires more mouse movement to access.

Because I want to know which other windows are around?

Right, but why you use minimize at all then? The new functions in Exposé assist precisely with navigating through larger amounts of windows, functionally, how does it make any difference if you have 10 windows buried actively behind the ones you are using, or 10 minimized in the dock, when either way, activating Exposé will bring them all to the forefront? This functionality makes casually using Exposé(as in, in the middle of doing something with one arrangement of windows, and needing to check on something quickly) very problematic. It defeats the purpose of utilizing minimization to reduce clutter, because the clutter comes back as soon as you try and switch to another application via Exposé, and it has the double effect of shrinking everything under Exposé so small that you can hardly read or quickly view anything.

Perhaps it is less of a concern on a bigger monitor, but on this 13" 1280x800 Macbook, it is intolerable.

I've been using it for a few weeks and found it to be a huge improvement. The Dock integration means I can easily peek into what another app has been doing, and the normalization of window sizes means less clutter.

The dock integration is a nice touch, except. Clicking and holding takes longer than a hot corner or mouse shortcut. I would like if there was a way to expedite the dock integration, for one-click access, then I could see using that to relieve some of the annoyances the new Exposé has for me.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by chucker I don't care where that window was or how big it was; I care that I find it.

I guess that where you and those of us who don't like it differ. Size is an attribute of the window that is important to identification. I know that Safari's download window, for example, is always going to be much smaller than the browser window. Instead, now Exposé sometimes makes it bigger than my browser window!

Here's a screenshot for people who haven't upgraded yet.

Originally Posted by chucker It doesn't become the smallest window. It becomes exactly as big or small as all the others, which helps with visual memory. The behavior feels far more predictable to me.

How does making windows more similar to each other improve visual memory?

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Wrao Thanks for the reply. Ultimately, most of it is user preference,

Absolutely — I just honestly didn't expect anyone would prefer the old behavior, so maybe Apple didn't expect it either. Maybe they'll MakeItAnOption™ later on, or find a compromise.

Yes, it obviously comes down to usage habits, however I think that Exposé is used far more frequently by most users for application switching rather than gathering information about what applications are doing what. The new Exposé is inferior for quick application switching.

Hm. I always use the Dock or cmd-tab for app switching. (Just like you said: usage habits.)

I can take many screen shots to disprove this.

Huh? I don't follow. It creates "a level playing field".

But, even if this is how it is programmed to work, it is still a bizarre choice, when you have a window that, outside of Exposé consumes almost the entire screen, and then inside of Exposé it becomes smaller than an iChat window, that is disorienting, it leaves excessive unclickable space, and it requires more mouse movement to access.

I think this assumes that the window size is proportional with its importance.

Right, but why you use minimize at all then?

To shelf something away for later. Otherwise, I'd close it. For example, I close the main windows of iTunes and Mail, because I honestly don't need them (or, if I'm waiting for them to complete, I may hide their app). But with some progress window (say, a file transfer), I'll typically minimize.

The new functions in Exposé assist precisely with navigating through larger amounts of windows, functionally, how does it make any difference if you have 10 windows buried actively behind the ones you are using, or 10 minimized in the dock, when either way, activating Exposé will bring them all to the forefront?

Because, with minimizing, it will give them much less space, just about enough to let you peek at a progress bar.

This functionality makes casually using Exposé(as in, in the middle of doing something with one arrangement of windows, and needing to check on something quickly) very problematic.

That's not my experience at all. In fact, that's pretty much exactly what I use Exposé for, and it works tremendously well.

Perhaps it is less of a concern on a bigger monitor, but on this 13" 1280x800 Macbook, it is intolerable.

Not much bigger here. 1440x900. (Though, to be fair, another 1680x1050 at work. Works even better there.) I definitely wish Apple would start offering higher-resolution options.

The dock integration is a nice touch, except. Clicking and holding takes longer than a hot corner or mouse shortcut.

But the hot corners aren't gone — the Dock integration is exactly what you used to get with F10 (no idea whatever it is on newer Apple keyboards — ctrl-F4?), except that it lets you pick the app in one step. Previously, you had to switch to the app whose windows you wanted to see, then do per-app Exposé; now, you have to click and hold on the Dock icon. Or, even quicker, you can press the key (or go to the hot corner), then click (don't have to hold once in this mode!) on another Dock icon.

Originally Posted by Brad I guess that where you and those of us who don't like it differ. Size is an attribute of the window that is important to identification. I know that Safari's download window, for example, is always going to be much smaller than the browser window.

Yes, size is relevant to identification. Size also gives a window a disproportional importance, though. Is the Downloads window really that much less important than the browser window? Is Mail's main window 50% more important than a regular Finder window?

Instead, now Exposé sometimes makes it bigger than my browser window!

I still don't get what you and Wrao mean by "bigger". Diagonally, they're roughly the same size (else it wouldn't be much of a grid).

How does making windows more similar to each other improve visual memory?

Maybe my way of looking at it makes more sense if you think of windows as (very detailed) icons, as soon as Exposé kicks in. Naturally, you'd want all icons to be roughly the same size, no?

This is simply my experience. I've used this for several weeks now and find that 1) I find it visually pleasant, 2) more importantly, I use Exposé a lot more than ever before even though I've been using Mac OS X full-time since Puma (and, thus, Exposé since it was introduced almost six years ago!). It's perfectly possible that my usage habits (which now involve Exposé, cmd-tab, application hide/show and minimizing) differ starkly from yours and Wrao's, but I don't think they're that unusual.

[julesstoop]

But the problem with the 'old' exposé is that when you open or resize or move one single window, the complete visual arrangement of the exposé overview changes so visual memory never really came in to play.

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by chucker To shelf something away for later. Otherwise, I'd close it. For example, I close the main windows of iTunes and Mail, because I honestly don't need them (or, if I'm waiting for them to complete, I may hide their app). But with some progress window (say, a file transfer), I'll typically minimize.

Except, "later" now means "whenever you next activate Exposé", which could be two seconds after minimizing something.

I will say this though. For whatever reason, when I have an item 'anchored' in the minimize subsection of the New Exposé, it does marginally aid navigation in the active window subset. But, it still bothers me very much that my minimized window is appearing at all.

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by julesstoop But the problem with the 'old' exposé is that when you open or resize or move one single window, the complete visual arrangement of the exposé overview changes so visual memory never really came in to play.

Not exactly. The Old Exposé was a lot less willing to do a 'complete' rearrangement simply because a new window or two was added or resized. More commonly windows would adjust to get bigger, fill dead space and overall they would not rearrange nearly as dramatically as the average New Exposé arrangement.

As far as Bigger window=more important. Often times, it is. That's why it was the biggest in the regular finder view. I don't expect Exposé to know which windows I'm trying to get to, get from, or inbetween and adjust sizes accordingly. But, the old method, this wasn't necessary because drastic resizing just didn't happen very often at all.

I don't need Exposé to reorganize windows to comparable sizes, when I already know that outside of Exposé different windows are different sizes and I can keep a mental record of what is what. By forcing them to be comparable, all it serves to do is create a more drastic and disorienting visual change. Procedurally it might make sense, and I could see someone's usage habits reflecting this as a bonus. But, if you are like me, and primarily use the computer in a more visual/spatial/relativistic way, this type of artificial organization is counterintuitive and it even hurts my eyes a bit to do.


I will admit that, if I am using the exact same 6 or 7 windows for a long stretch of time, the New Exposé does have its perks, and I can start to see it being useful. However, every time a new application or window is added into the mix, I feel like I am relearning it all from the ground up.

[dmegatool]

For the exposé resizing windows, I guess it just help readability. I mean, If you got a small and a couples of window opened, it's impossible to read the text in it.

[Brad]

(discussion split from The latest kitten: Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard)

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Wrao Not exactly. The Old Exposé was a lot less willing to do a 'complete' rearrangement simply because a new window or two was added or resized. More commonly windows would adjust to get bigger, fill dead space and overall they would not rearrange nearly as dramatically as the average New Exposé arrangement. As far as Bigger window=more important. Often times, it is. That's why it was the biggest in the regular finder view. I don't expect Exposé to know which windows I'm trying to get to, get from, or inbetween and adjust sizes accordingly. But, the old method, this wasn't necessary because drastic resizing just didn't happen very often at all. I don't need Exposé to reorganize windows to comparable sizes, when I already know that outside of Exposé different windows are different sizes and I can keep a mental record of what is what. By forcing them to be comparable, all it serves to do is create a more drastic and disorienting visual change. Procedurally it might make sense, and I could see someone's usage habits reflecting this as a bonus. But, if you are like me, and primarily use the computer in a more visual/spatial/relativistic way, this type of artificial organization is counterintuitive and it even hurts my eyes a bit to do. I will admit that, if I am using the exact same 6 or 7 windows for a long stretch of time, the New Exposé does have its perks, and I can start to see it being useful. However, every time a new application or window is added into the mix, I feel like I am relearning it all from the ground up.

I'm in complete agreement with all of what you just said. I was just typing up a response that said basically the same thing.

I've been an avid Exposé user for a long time. Combined with command-tab, command-`, and command-h, it's been my chief mode of window navigation. I'm having a really hard time with the way New Exposé is choosing to organize these tiles. It just seems to destroy any sense of natural spacial orientation; I really don't know how it's reorganizing my workspace into these grids.

[Iago]

I've looked at this thread and I can tell I'm going to really struggle to get used to this revision. However if you think about it, really, this is how Exposé should have worked from the start. We've just had to adapt our thinking to the slightly weird way it used to work (different sizes, unpredictable positions, oftentimes small windows getting even smaller, ridiculously), and now we're going to unlearn it.

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by Brad I'm in complete agreement with all of what you just said. I was just typing up a response that said basically the same thing. I've been an avid Exposé user for a long time. Combined with command-tab, command-`, and command-h, it's been my chief mode of window navigation. I'm having a really hard time with the way New Exposé is choosing to organize these tiles. It just seems to destroy any sense of natural spacial orientation; I really don't know how it's reorganizing my workspace into these grids.

I am hoping that, over time, it will begin to make more sense and my usage habits and Apple's alignment schemes will meet each other halfway. I do confess that, I have appreciate some of the new functions added to Exposé, and acknowledge that they wouldn't necessarily work in a non-grid method. But, as of now, I'm pretty reluctant to use Exposé at all.

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by Iago I've looked at this thread and I can tell I'm going to really struggle to get used to this revision. However if you think about it, really, this is how Exposé should have worked from the start. We've just had to adapt our thinking to the slightly weird way it used to work (different sizes, unpredictable positions, oftentimes small windows getting even smaller, ridiculously), and now we're going to unlearn it.

I disagree. I think that Exposé should function more analogously to regular free floating finder view. I've always treated Exposé as an extension of the finder view, being that, I expect relative sizes and positions to stay fairly consistent within Exposé and outside of it. Also, the new Exposé simply moves too fast much of the time, and I'm working with a GMA 950, but with the old Exposé you could visibly track where all your windows were moving, so that even if there was a rare incident of a window being placed in an unusable orientation, the overall movement combined with what you've been keeping track of in your head, combined with generally filling blank space, made the whole experience a lot easier to learn and adapt to.

If you consider Exposé to be more similar to the contents of a finder window, then I can see how a grid based organization would make sense and be somewhat intuitive for you. But, if you compare it to the orientation of finder and application windows overall, it is a pretty stark contrast.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Wrao I disagree. I think that Exposé should function more analogously to regular free floating finder view. I've always treated Exposé as an extension of the finder view,

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "finder view"? Do you mean the View As Icons, particularly on the Desktop?

Also, the new Exposé simply moves too fast much of the time, and I'm working with a GMA 950, but with the old Exposé you could visibly track where all your windows were moving, so that even if there was a rare incident of a window being placed in an unusable orientation, the overall movement combined with what you've been keeping track of in your head, combined with generally filling blank space, made the whole experience a lot easier to learn and adapt to.

Hm. I suppose I wouldn't mind if it were a tad slower.

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by chucker Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "finder view"? Do you mean the View As Icons, particularly on the Desktop?

I wasn't sure what it is properly called, so I apologize for the confusion. But I am referring to what you might call the placement and orientation of application(including finder) windows on the screen. Not the actual placement or orientation of the contents inside of a window(which could be equally referred to as finder view, now that I think about it)

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Wrao I wasn't sure what it is properly called, so I apologize for the confusion.

No apologies needed — just making sure we're on the same page.

But I am referring to what you might call the placement and orientation of application(including finder) windows on the screen. Not the actual placement or orientation of the contents inside of a window(which could be equally referred to as finder view, now that I think about it)

Gotcha. I'm more and more for a checkbox (or set of radio buttons) that toggles between the old behavior and the new "grid", probably with icons that display the difference in behavior (since it's hard to convey in short text).

As an aside: they neglected to update Exposé's icon. If you look at the icon (in Applications -> Utilities), the windows shown there actually still represent the old behavior.

[Brad]

Here's another example that's probably a common occurrence. Here I have a couple of windows that fit fine on the screen already. Old Exposé would have basically left them in the same position because there's no need to move them. New Exposé, on the other hand, completely changes their size and position, forcing them into the new grid layout.





And of course they move into the grid and hide all other windows in application mode.





I think this is why windows feel like they are moving around faster with the New Exposé. They're not necessarily faster; they're just moving around a lot more than they would have previously. Windows that normally wouldn't move at all or would just scoot over a few pixels are now sliding across the whole screen to fit into the grid. That text document, for example, feels like it's flying around all over the place... because it is.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by chucker Gotcha. I'm more and more for a checkbox (or set of radio buttons) that toggles between the old behavior and the new "grid", probably with icons that display the difference in behavior (since it's hard to convey in short text).

ohyesohyesohyesohyesohyesohyesohyesohyesohyesohyes

Originally Posted by chucker As an aside: they neglected to update Exposé's icon. If you look at the icon (in Applications -> Utilities), the windows shown there actually still represent the old behavior.

[Batman]

So, I thought I'd just try - knowing full well it probably wouldn't work - restoring the Old Good Expose from a Time Machine backup.

D'oh!

It looks like they've implemented the New Bad Expose at the system level. Oh well, it was worth a try.

[Brad]

The Exposé.app isn't what you want; that's just a lightweight "wrapper" that triggers Exposé. Dashboard, Exposé, and Dock are all actually part of... Dock.app.

/System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app

[chucker]

Yeah. The "apps" (which were introduced with 10.5 Leopard, whereas Exposé itself has been there since 10.3 Panther) — Exposé, Front Row, Spaces and Time Machine (am I forgetting any?) are just shortcuts of sorts.

I suppose you could try killing and renaming the Dock and putting 10.5's in its place (/System/Library/CoreServices).

Anyone else find the blue selection color kind of odd? And shouldn't it reflect your system selection color?

[timmmee]

I just updated to Snow Leopard today. The new Exposé makes me nauseous as hell. Everything zooms around way too much and it's nearly impossible to predict where your windows are going to end up.

Hopefully it'll get better with time, because as it is I feel like puking whenever I want to pick a new song in iTunes or something. :P

[PKIDelirium]

Originally Posted by chucker (am I forgetting any?)

Dashboard.

[Batman]

D'oh! Again, I know.

After about 5 minutes of tinkering to replace Dock.app with the 10.5 Dock.app, plus 30 minutes of scrambling to get my system working again I can confirm that that method doesn't work either.

Just so nobody else does something incredibly idiotic, you know, like trying to replace system critical applications

[Miko]

Originally Posted by chucker Anyone else find the blue selection color kind of odd? And shouldn't it reflect your system selection color?

Yup I find it odd and really liked the light blue overlay from the old Exposé better, this is too safari home screen to me watch 10.6.1 is going to add a curved look to Exposé.