[joveblue]

It's practically the 2010s. Why is it even still legal to pay a store using a cheque???

[Xaqtly]

Oh I don't know, I think check writing should still be allowed.

Assuming that the cashier is allowed to slap the snot out of the person who wrote the check once it's handed over. At least that way, check writing would be accompanied by a lot of cringing and maybe some crying.

And then everybody else in line would cheer, and we would all go out for pizza. Hee hee. The world would be a better place if I were king.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by joveblue It's practically the 2010s. Why is it even still legal to pay a store using a cheque???

Huh?

[joveblue]

The whole process of cheques is ridiculous. Get a freakin' debit card!

[Is it 1981?]

Originally Posted by joveblue The whole process of cheques is ridiculous. Get a freakin' debit card!

Debit cards FTW – much simpler than credit cards. Although if you're thinking of applying for a credit card, is it wrong to consider switching banks purely on the basis that you like monochrome colour schemes with Helvetica and so do they? Yes, I'm shallow like that.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by joveblue The whole process of cheques is ridiculous. Get a freakin' debit card!

Cheques are still good for privet sales. Try buying a second hand car from the guy down the street with a debit card! Another reason, debit transactions tend to have a lower transfer limit. I can move more money via a cheque than my debit card.

[billybobsky]

Is that privet? or private?

A shrub or an undisclosed transaction?

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by joveblue The whole process of cheques is ridiculous. Get a freakin' debit card!

Next time I owe you money, I'll be sure to demand I be able to pay with a debit card.

I take it you have never paid rent or needed to pay a *person* an amount over $50...

[chucker]

Checks are WTF-worthy for Europeans.

[Kickaha]

Seriously then - how do you pay non-corporate entities? Go to the bank, and come out with several hundred euros in rent money in your pocket for the trip home on the bus?

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Seriously then - how do you pay non-corporate entities? Go to the bank, and come out with several hundred euros in rent money in your pocket for the trip home on the bus?

Bank transfer. Easy, secure, fast (hours when it's the same bank; three days at worst between banks). Works for personal stuff, bills, everything. Can be done via phone, online with chip card, online with PIN/TAN (list of expires-after-one-use numbers), handing in a standardized slip or good ol' waiting at the teller's desk. The recipient has to provide their bank account number beforehand; other than that, nothing.

[joveblue]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Next time I owe you money, I'll be sure to demand I be able to pay with a debit card. I take it you have never paid rent or needed to pay a *person* an amount over $50...

I said "in stores", chilax!

But I would prefer a bank transfer for private transactions

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by chucker The recipient has to provide their bank account number beforehand; other than that, nothing.

Yeah, probably a cultural thing, but when in the US when someone says "Hey, I need your bank account number..." it's usually signed "Nigerian Prince".

Can't see that one catching on here.

[joveblue]

I dunno, in a few years everyone will be walking around with iPhones and Android phones and so forth with customised net-banking apps. It could catch on pretty quickly, being able to quickly and easily transfer cash wherever you are.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Next time I owe you money, I'll be sure to demand I be able to pay with a debit card. I take it you have never paid rent or needed to pay a *person* an amount over $50...

I've paid my rent and others for the last 2-3 years via electronic bank transfer.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Yeah, probably a cultural thing, but when in the US when someone says "Hey, I need your bank account number..." it's usually signed "Nigerian Prince". Can't see that one catching on here.

And yet you guys hand out credit card numbers like they're lottery tickets.

[Kickaha]

Point taken, but I think there's at least one psychological barrier at work here.

Credit card = limited funds, fairly easy to shout 'fraud!' and have it taken care of.

Bank account number = all your funds*, and it's a lot harder to yell 'fraud!' when "you gave out the number!?".

As personal electronic transfer devices become more common and capable, I can see the check going by the wayside, but there are still reasonable uses for it until then.

*Depending on how you have it set up, of course, but that's the psychological part - bank accounts are thought of as where you put your money... credit cards are where your money goes into as an intermediary. I know that's not the way it works, but that's how most people in the US would, I'd wager, think about it. Your credit card number is meant to be disposable, in some sense - it's the firewall between the person you're giving money to and your funds. Your bank account number? Given out only to people who you owe money *to*, on the check itself. It's kind of a trust thing. "Trust that I will give you the money I owe you, and here's my bank account number as a tracking feature." vs. "Trust that I will give you the money I owe you, and oh, could I have *your* bank account number?"

It's just not done.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Point taken, but I think there's at least one psychological barrier at work here. Credit card = limited funds, fairly easy to shout 'fraud!' and have it taken care of. Bank account number = all your funds*, and it's a lot harder to yell 'fraud!' when "you gave out the number!?".

Yup. Very true and I'm aware of it, but it doesn't change that, rationally speaking, a bank transfer is the safer method. You're transferring money you actually have to a person you actually know.

*Depending on how you have it set up, of course, but that's the psychological part - bank accounts are thought of as where you put your money... credit cards are where your money goes into as an intermediary. I know that's not the way it works, but that's how most people in the US would, I'd wager, think about it. Your credit card number is meant to be disposable, in some sense

Yup. Maybe a true intermediary, expiring code system is needed. Wanna send someone money? Have the destination bank hand you a code.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by chucker Yup. Maybe a true intermediary, expiring code system is needed. Wanna send someone money? Have the destination bank hand you a code.

Bank of America seems to do that know, if you opt in to that service. Not sure if it really is more secure as the code gets sent to your cell phone.

[Banana]

When I do a bank transfer, it's usually accompanied by paperworks and they ask me to sign a paper promising that I'm not sending the money to a Nigerian price. I think the setup itself then gives one an impression that bank transfer shouldn't be the normal way to do transaction.

I want to say that to have a bank account effectively gives anybody the golden key but thinking about it a bit, it seems that they'll ask for supporting identifications so that would be no different than having the credit card number and by then you have to know the social security number & some general information (e.g. birthdate, mother's maiden name or the branch where you opened the account with) before you can fool and impersonate as someone else. I'm not sure how I got that idea that having a bank account somehow enables one to suck it dry.

Mind, electronic transfer for billing and paycheck is comparatively simpler, especially as it's setup for an recurring event as opposed to my one-time transfer, but even so I am reluctant to set up the transfer simply because I want to pay when I want to and not worry about having the funds.

[iFerret]

I'm not sure why there's such a stigma over bank account numbers. You can't do anything with just a bank account number. Here you would need some photo ID and some security information. Or a signed direct debit authority (which needs to match the info on your account).

Credit card numbers are far easier to scam you with. They don't even require the card verification number here.

[Brad]

Thread split! From The Bitching Barista: or, Why Some Customers Suck

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by iFerret I'm not sure why there's such a stigma over bank account numbers. You can't do anything with just a bank account number. Here you would need some photo ID and some security information. Or a signed direct debit authority (which needs to match the info on your account). Credit card numbers are far easier to scam you with. They don't even require the card verification number here.

Bank acct #s and credit card #s have about the same level of security for electronic transactions: minimal.

The difference is... which do I want compromised:

a) the account with all my savings in it
b) the account with a hard limit that is much much smaller

If you set up a bank account strictly as a intermediary, and remember to move funds into/out of it, then it can be your external 'interface'. If it gets compromised, no biggie, just get a new #. Your primary funds are kept safely private. In that case, sure, I can see it being no worse than a credit card. I just don't see how it's *better*.

(Also consider that bank transfers in the US incur fees up into the "are you *kidding* me?" range.)

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Bank acct #s and credit card #s have about the same level of security for electronic transactions: minimal. The difference is... which do I want compromised: a) the account with all my savings in it b) the account with a hard limit that is much much smaller

Why would the bank account you transfer money from/to have "all your savings in it"? Do Americans typically run all their stuff from one account? Don't you have separate longer-term saving accounts and depots?

(Also consider that bank transfers in the US incur fees up into the "are you *kidding* me?" range.)

Yeah. Those are zero here… but I think that's a chicken-and-egg thing, really.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by chucker Why would the bank account you transfer money from/to have "all your savings in it"? Do Americans typically run all their stuff from one account? Don't you have separate longer-term saving accounts and depots?

Some do, many don't. Heck, having a checking account separate from a savings account is kind of a new thing* to be 'normal'... and even then, most of the time they're linked for 'convenience'... the separation between the two is almost gone. (It used to be that your savings account *was* your checking account, until the banks realized that people were uneasy with having that lack of separation - lose your checkbook, someone could clean out your savings. So they added a firewall in the offering of a second account... at a fee. And then people kept forgetting to move money from one to the other, so they offer 'linking'... for a fee. Thereby getting two fees, and wiping out much of the security that was put in place. Rawk!)

Yeah. Those are zero here… but I think that's a chicken-and-egg thing, really.

So each system has a norm behavior, with the fee structure reflecting that.

*Measured in decades... financial inertia is slow.

[joveblue]

For someone to steal my money using my bank account number:

1. Know my e-banking password
2. Steal my phone/SIM to receive SMS with unique code

OR

1. Present photo ID at a branch, convince teller they are me

For someone to steal my money using my credit card number:

1. Know my name, the expiry date and the CCV, all printed on the card
2. Hope I haven't cancelled the card

Seems to me that the bank account number will get you less far. If you have my credit card number you probably have the other details too. And if you steal the card, you don't even need a PIN, just need to practice forging my signature a few times before you go into a shop.

On the other hand, if you are obviously a junkie (sores all over your head, etc.), and come across an American Express corporate card, don't take it into my store and try to spend $600, then when asked for photo ID "as it's over $500", take your item back and choose a cheaper item in the hope that you won't need ID*. We're onto you, it's not going to happen.


*yes, this really happened :/

[AsLan^]

You can do a wire transfer over the phone or by fax without showing any ID if you are transferring money from an account in your name to another account in your name (at a different institution). For a thief to clean you out they would need to know enough information about you to pose as you, and a bank account in your name to transfer your money to.

Credit cards can be stolen and I've only ever been asked for ID in the US and Australia. Credit card numbers can also be stolen and printed out on magnetic strips to be pasted on the backs of other cards (a card the thief has ID for). Kickaha's argument about cleaning out a bank account versus a set limit is valid except I suspect most Americans have a higher limit on their credit card than they have in savings.

Some credit card machines also allow the credit card number to be typed directly into the machine. I've used my credit card over the phone in this fashion to pay a mechanic who was making an emergency repair to my mothers car.

Cheques of course can be stolen or forged, and of course a cheque has all your account information on it and usually your name and current address.

I don't think it's really worth worrying too much about though. I think banks are getting smarter about identifying people over the phone, and most have policies about limited liabilities with credit card fraud. They seem to have a couple of pretty good metrics in place for flagging potential fraud and I've been called a couple of times by my bank to confirm suspicious activity. I've never been a victim of fraud but it's nice to know my bank is looking out for me.

I think the trick is in finding a bank you are comfortable with (has the right combination of security and convenience you need) and not worry about the potential activities of thieves. If you are unlucky enough to be targeted, it's likely that there wasn't anything you could have done to stop it (besides not giving away your life history and banking information to the crown prince).

[JohnnyTheA]

Originally Posted by joveblue The whole process of cheques is ridiculous. Get a freakin' debit card!

Debit cards are the most insecure of all. You lose immediate control over YOUR money if someone uses your account somehow. MOST banks will charge the money back to you IF you report the fraudulent use soon enough. I think the laws vary from state to state and some banks are better than others for handling fraud. But until you fight it out with the bank you are out real money.

With Credit cards, you still have your REAL money if some gets into your account. I have had fraud two time in my life and in each case, it was very simple to have the fraudulent charges reversed BEFORE any bill or interest was due.

If you are buying online the BEST way to go is to use a credit card. Someone may hack into one of the retailers you deal with and get your card number. If that is a credit card number, you are in much better shape. If its a debit, you have a problem on your hands. Also many credit card companies offer other consumer protection services if you get ripped off. They just do a charge back on the merchant.

One thing about Credit AND Debit cards is the security that the banks do to track your every move. Supposedly they have ways of adjusting your credit rating if you all-of-a-sudden start using your Credit Cards more than usual like if you got layed off or something. They monitor ALL KINDS of other things as well. Ofcourse the MAIN reason they do this is to try to detect fraud. I got a call one day at work from Bank of America. They noticed a strange transaction that looked out of place for my usual spending. Sure enough some company in NY was trying to charge to it. Checks are old-school but they are also more private. They have their place as well...

JTA

[joveblue]

Originally Posted by JohnnyTheA Checks are old-school but they are also more private. They have their place as well...

Sure, but not in a store, unless you're buying a car or something. If you're just buying your weekly shopping at the supermarket using a cheque, what the hell? It takes ages, holds everyone up and is pointless and annoying.

My bank called me up once because I was charged $1.17 on my Visa Debit card from the US . It was a cheap domain from Go Daddy.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by joveblue Sure, but not in a store, unless you're buying a car or something. If you're just buying your weekly shopping at the supermarket using a cheque, what the hell? It takes ages, holds everyone up and is pointless and annoying.

Oh I *HATE* people who wait until the checker has finished ringing everything up, and THEN they haul their checkbook out. Come *on* you idiot! Fill out everything but the amount while they're ringing you up! Jesus already!

Of course, these are the same people who, when using a debit card, stand there for a couple of minutes trying to remember their PIN. "Oh, I have it written down somewhere in my purse, just hold on...." *beats to death with a baseball bat*