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Moogs
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2011-11-11, 16:47

Eizo FTW. 243W here.
 
Matsu
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2011-11-12, 16:48

This monitor discussion is a timely one for me. My office has seen fit to replace my laptop. A nice perk. Budget's not huge, but it should swing a 15" MBP. A couple of constraints:

1. Money has to be spent before ned of calendar year.
2. I can only buy what's on the approved list, there are no desktops, or I would have considered an iMac. There are a number of Dell, Lenovo, HP, and Apple machines, including MBA, MBP.

A thunderbolt MBP should swing CS5 duties more easily than my 5 year old C2D, but its display just won't do - too small, too shiny. How much is that Eizo? Could I get by with a nice Dell unit? They seem to be a decent budget alternative...

Last edited by Matsu : 2011-11-13 at 03:51.
 
Dorian Gray
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2011-11-13, 05:34

My EIZO is crazy expensive in the US, an odd thing because these goods are usually substantially cheaper there than in Europe. (Moogs' display is even more expensive, but you get a larger, higher-res, IPS panel, etc., for the extra money.)

In the US I'd look very closely at the NECs instead. NEC's marketing is seriously messed up in Europe: the necessary software to support the hardware calibration is unavailable or ridiculously priced (by contrast, EIZO includes it for free). In the US, however, there are some very attractive NEC bundles.

When I last checked, admittedly a while ago, the Dells, etc., didn't support hardware calibration, i.e. they're not smart monitors. (Not saying you need that, of course.)
 
Matsu
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2011-11-13, 17:04

Dell's u2711 and Apple's 27" are basically the most affordable 27" 2560x1440 options. Both about 1000, but the Dell can often be found with some discounts.

They're both 8 bit panels, but the Dell is matte, and can be switched between aRGB and sRGB - it reproduces both spectrums. Connectivity includes DVI and display port, with USB2 and multicard readers built in.

The Apple is thunderbolt only, glossy, and strictly sRGB. Of course it offers one plug convenience. Not sure if it can be made to work with DVI and/or display port. I read somewhere that display port macs could not connect to it. Weird, I thought display port was integrated into TB, must either be wrong or something about the implementation.

The next step up would be from NEC, about $1400. This is 10bit, and has a bunch of other features.

There's a big drop in price moving down to 23/24" panels but my cramped space is better suited to a single large display, so I'd rather go as big as possible.

Decisions...

.........................................
 
Moogs
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2011-11-14, 11:28

What Dorian said. If you're looking for an "almost Eizo" quality at cheaper prices for a dept or whatnot, NEC is the way to go.
 
Matsu
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2011-11-14, 13:09

In your view does it make more sense to go with a smaller, but higher quality 1920x1080 panel? It's for home.

Every so many quarters I'm allowed to benefit from deptartmental purchasing, but these are not items that are on the list.

Our labs have 27" iMacs and or Powermacs with 23" Viewsonic displays. I'm quite spoiled by the large iMac screens.

At home I'm using an older 19" 1280x1024 Dell attached to my 15" MBP. Not a great combination. I can get the Dell where I need it for brightness, but two mismatched screens don't really work, even after I've taken all sorts of time to launch the palettes into one screen and open images into another. Every time you grab a tool, or move up to the menu at the top of the screen, you lose track of the cursor for a moment, or you find one control over to one side away from the palette you're going to use near/over the image. Annoying.

Apple/Adobe should build some dual screen UI parameters into menu heavy apps, so that we can more easily accommodate custom screen configs. A palette monitor mode would be great. Something that puts all the menus/boxes in a window on one screen, and launches/expands the working palette overtop the image on another screen. You can almost set it up that way, but not quite. What you can't do, for instance, which might be especially useful for browsing images in bridge, or for filmstrip views: Browse in one window, expand image onto second screen, full screen...

But back to the monitors, I think the trick to buying a Dell is to hunt for the right promo/coupon combination that lops $200-300 from the price of the thing - it happens enough that deals can be found.

The problem now is that my wife has seen the 27" Thunderbolt display in action with a Macbook and she's in love... She does have good taste but she views these things as a matter of decor and functionality. She's completely insensitive to technical specifications and the subtle minutia of small variations in colour - unless dealing with garments/decor - ask her to look at two different color profiles of an image, or the difference between a 1080P and 720P (or even 480P) screen and she'll quickly lose patience and tell me they all look the same

Try now convincing her why the ugly screen with lots of wires costs more than the pretty Apple one...
 
Moogs
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2011-11-14, 22:32

If you have room for it I think these days any time you can afford extra screen real estate of high quality, you should do it. I'd have 30" on my desk but there's just no room for it. I'd go one large screen over two-display setup any day, for example. Eizo even has a screen now that allows you to monitor video on it although it's very expensive.

Bush on Putin: "..I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy... was able to get a sense of his soul."
 
Matsu
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2011-11-18, 07:54

Turns out the u2711 is a 10bit panel with 12bit LUT. Not bad, basically a slightly smaller u3011. Reviews rate it rather well, perhaps best of the budget bunch, before you move on to NEC, and then in the nosebleed section, Eizo - which are both better overall.

Still, the monitor can reproduce the aRGB space, and seems to have well calibrated preset modes to constrain it into sRGB or aRGB in unmanaged environments. Best news, I can find it for $750.

Deals on 30" panels are harder to find, but from time to time there are aggressive deals that get the u3011 down to about $1,000. I think the slightly taller/larger panel has some advantages for photo work. You sit back just a little more, and since a lot of photos are taller, it translates into nearly an extra MP of full size viewing.

On a 30" display, a 3:2 image could open up to 2400x1600 = 3.84MP
On a 27" display, a 3:2 image could open up to 2160x1440 = 3.11MP

So, it's actually 3/4 MP, but they're also larger, so you can sit back a little more for perspective.

It's just a little thing, but it adds up depending on how you like to view, organize and edit, and how good/bad your eyesight is...

Some people say they find them too big to work with. But a lot of those don't seem to like 27" either. I have no problem with 27" screens, never really used a 30" screen except to ogle them. I know I actually manage to find 21" screens cramped now. Just watching other people work at their desks, the sweet spot for many seems to be 23-25" - that is they just sit down and work, and don't adjust the screen or their keyboard or chairs, not super scientific, just an observation.

.........................................
 
Moogs
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2011-12-12, 17:11

Moogs is here to say that he is buying a new Mac Pro next rev because his is dying a slow death and fears the next rev may be the last (and he has a Apple discount). I am going to have to ship 3 old computers back to their recycling facility; good thing they're all paid for. G4, G5, this Mac Pro.

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Moogs
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2011-12-22, 17:29

And because I want one of these so I can max out my COD settings at 1920x1200 :sarcasm:


http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/22/...graphics-card/

Bush on Putin: "..I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy... was able to get a sense of his soul."
 
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2011-12-22, 17:42

These are getting more and more deliberately penis-shaped, right?
 
Xaqtly
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2011-12-22, 18:58

I believe so, yes.

I'm more curious than ever as to what Apple is going to do about the Mac Pro., and the tower form factor in general. Plenty of people still want the expandability and the option of using a card like that, and putting 4 HDDs in, and having 32-64GB of RAM and PCI slots for specialized purposes.

But high end workstations are no longer where Apple's bread is buttered. Like the XServe before it, I am expecting it to ride into the sunset... just don't know when. I expect the upcoming rev to have the same case and the normal speed bumped components, and a variant of that 7970 card as an option, but after that?

I guess it'll depend on how much Mac Pro functionality they can fit into a different sort of form factor. I'm probably going to get the next rev, as I'm on a 2009 version right now and it just feels to me like the next rev might be the last one unless Apple does something drastic and actually compromises with the non-tower headless Mac we've wanted for so long. At this point I can't even guess what Apple's going to do, I don't know what sales numbers are like for Mac Pros these days and whether it's worth the effort to keep them going.
 
GSpotter
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2011-12-23, 02:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqtly View Post
Plenty of people still want the expandability and the option of using a card like that, and putting 4 HDDs in, and having 32-64GB of RAM and PCI slots for specialized purposes.
I think (although no data to back this up) that there are at least two groups of people interested in the MacPro:
1. People who just need more memory / more computing power and need a different monitor
2. People who need specialized cards (in addition to point 1), e.g. for audio and video production or scientific applications.

So I'd like to see a successor of the MacPro where the current model is split into two modules:
1. A core containing the processor, memory, drive bay and a graphics cards slot (maybe one additional slot, in case you want to upgrade e.g. to new interfaces)
Should be smaller and cheaper than the current MacPro
2. A thunderbolt extension box (could be designed snap to the core box to become one enclosure) with expansion cards for those who need this expandability.

A nice option would also be an 'entry' model with just the same motherboard than the high-end iMac to lure those people who want a desktop with a faster processor and graphics card than the mac mini and without the monitor of the iMac...

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Moogs
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2011-12-24, 11:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
These are getting more and more deliberately penis-shaped, right?
I think the new processor is called "Bone-core Extreme".
 
drewprops
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2011-12-24, 16:03

WHEN my finances allow it I'm going to build a Hackintosh. It has been decided in my heart.


...
 
nikstar101
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2011-12-24, 16:40

Well I think there will be a 2012 Mac Pro but I wouldn't count on one much further than that. I just think that consumer Macs/PCs have become so powerful and flexible (not so much expandable) that they can now cope with even highly demanding tasks. Additionally apart from storage I would hazard a guess that most Pros don't get upgraded too much either.

Anyway I will but a new one before they disappear, if only out of habit.
 
Moogs
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2012-01-04, 13:17

Latest rumors seem to be further spreading the doom and gloom. I am seeing the same shipping changes to 1-3 weeks when changing the stock configuration of each item (like changing the processor speed). Could be read either as "clearing the channel" or as "EOL soon because new CPU parts not close to ready AFAIWK."

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/01/02/...ins-uncertain/

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nikstar101
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2012-01-04, 15:30

Well i think that the current delay in shipping times is too coincidental with the new line of Sandy Bridge-E processors, so i think we will be in luck.

But having a look at some PC websites the system performance isn't a huge improvement over the standard Sandy Bridge system, and i know that everyone will say its more than that it is the expandability of the Mac Pro, but with every new generation of iMac i see the need to expand (apart the HD space) slowly ebb away.

Anyway i will be more interested how they will implement Thunderbolt ports into the Mac Pro. Will it pass through the graphics card or be a separate port?
 
Xaqtly
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2012-01-04, 16:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikstar101 View Post
Anyway i will be more interested how they will implement Thunderbolt ports into the Mac Pro. Will it pass through the graphics card or be a separate port?
My guess is that the graphics card will have a DVI and two Mini-DP ports like current cards do, and that the thunderpoop ports will be on the logic board, routed to the back panel.

Yeah, I think an iMac with chunderbolt and the ability to put in 16GB of RAM and an SSD will cover the needs of even some of the more power-hungry Mac Pro users. It covers everything except PCI expandability, pretty much. I really think the Mac Pro's days are numbered now, but Apple has surprised me before. It'll eventually come down to the group of users who need the multiple-core performance for things like rendering, and things like Quadro cards. Seems like there is always going to be a market for that, even if it's very small. Hard to imagine Apple getting rid of it entirely.
 
PB PM
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2012-01-04, 18:42

Part of what may be killing the Mac Pro is the number of users willing to make a hackintosh, order to build a similar system from scratch for less. That may not be a huge number of users, but in a time when desktop sales are sliding, every person that does not buy is hurting the future of such products. Add the current power in the high end iMac and you have poor Mac Pro sales.
 
Matsu
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2012-01-04, 19:52

I think they'll keep it around for users that need it, but never actually price it down to the rest of us who just want it. That leaves the iMac and Macbook Pro. The problem with the iMac is the screen. Personally I think there's room for better iMac screen option. I don't mind using it, but calibrating it is hard, and when you dim the screen enough for real editing, reflection becomes much more annoying than at typical viewing brightness.

I think there's certainly room for a matte screen option , even if i get no other improvement in bit depth or gamut.

But this is a mac pro thread. If they ever killed it, what would/could they replace it with?

.........................................
 
PB PM
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2012-01-04, 20:19

Just a thought, but maybe they have no intention of replacing it?
 
Moogs
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2012-01-05, 09:21

Yah if they do kill it, I doubt it will be replaced by anything.
 
Matsu
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2012-01-05, 10:38

But are professionals ready to adopt iMacs, Macbooks, and mini's as their main machines? Mac Pros customers will want with something, maybe even a PC ?

If the technology landscape changes enough to make desktops extinct, then Apple will probably go there first, but eventually so will every one else. I don't see it happening soon. I can see Mac desktops, all desktops, occupying increasing specialized niches for certain industries/applications. They already are.

All my friends/family use laptops and iPads - they don't use "pro" applications. I only see desktops at work, because they're cheap, and in our labs, because they're for specific applications - FCP, CS, design, and other A/V, internet, and creative production.

.........................................
 
Xaqtly
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2012-01-05, 13:11

Yeah it depends on which professionals we're talking about. The only real, tangible benefits a Mac Pro has over an iMac is more physical cores to do the work, and the PCI slots for specialized cards, graphics or otherwise. If you're not doing anything that is using all 8 cores on a Mac Pro, then you're likely not doing anything that requires PCI slots or specialized cards either.

I dunno. Apple could keep the Mac Pro going, they could build a new sort of half tower headless that has a couple PCI slots, a couple HDD slots, good RAM capacity and a much lower price point, or they could just dump the tower entirely. It's hard to predict, especially without Jobs. If he were still there I'd guess he was just going to axe the line.
 
Dave
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2012-01-05, 16:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqtly View Post
The only real, tangible benefits a Mac Pro has over an iMac is more physical cores to do the work, and the PCI slots for specialized cards, graphics or otherwise.
Also a higher RAM ceiling and not having to eat up Thunderbolt bandwidth to add fast storage (RAIDs and SSD would more than saturate FW800, so I'm not counting that).

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
 
Dorian Gray
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2012-01-06, 07:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaqtly View Post
It's hard to predict, especially without Jobs. If he were still there I'd guess he was just going to axe the line.
Alternatively, the Apple crew may be keenly aware of this, and vow to be more Steve than Steve! Especially with the first few releases after his departure, in order to establish that Apple's culture really is Jobs' culture.

As you say, hard to predict.
 
Moogs
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2012-01-06, 11:10

No one is more Steve than TEH STEVE ¡

Sacrilege!
 
PB PM
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2012-01-06, 12:40

Secretly the "fake" Steve Jobs is now running the show.
 
Moogs
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2012-01-06, 16:51

And no one is more of a real fake than Fake Steve... or something.
 
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