[pscates2.0]

Any other 5by5/Talk Show listeners following this weird development?

For the past two weeks, there has been no new "Talk Show" episode on 5by5 (they record every Wednesday around noon). Gruber seemed exceptionally surly and detached in the final episode.

I always hated how rude he was to Dan Benjamin, and I always suspected there was some edginess or growing discomfort. Two very different personalities (Dan's affable, "everyman" who keeps the show on track, and Gruber's caustic, opinionated curmudgeon who never seemed prepared or enthusiastic about the gig).

Anyway, out of the blue Friday, Gruber tweets "get your headphones on" and there's a new "Talk Show" graphic (actually the original, pre-5by5 one from 2007), linked to Mike Montiero's Mule Radio Syndicate.



No word from Dan Benjamin other than tweeting "it makes me sad" in response to someone's question about it.

So no official announcement, no comment from either host, no official reason(s) given, Gruber takes "The Talk Show", sans Dan Benjamin, to another network (and is getting KILLED in the iTunes reviews/ratings).

Nerd soap opera!



Google "Gruber leaves 5by5" or "The Talk Show changes networks" or things like that and you'll get some articles and posts for more background.

Personally, I think Gruber did something uncool and hung 5by5 and Benjamin out to dry. I see it, knowing how he acts and can be, as "on him". Benjamin seemed genuinely taken by surprise, as did all the listeners and fans.

Anyway, does anyone know what happened?

[Brave Ulysses]

I don't listen to the talk shows or any podcasts these guys do but I have become a frequent reader of Daring Fireball.

Wouldn't surprise me, Gruber is a bit of a pompous dick.

I read DF because he tends to find interesting tidbits and articles that I enjoy and his commentary is usually on the ball and inline with my thinking. His success has definitely gotten to his head.

Weird nerd fight for sure.

[pscates2.0]

Yeah, I read DF everyday. Dick he can be, he's usually quite dead-on in his predictions and analysis. Certainly more than the Wall Street analysts and most other Apple/tech-oriented writers.

But he's definitely got an abrasive, off-putting side to him. Which is a shame because he's actually funny. But there were so many times on the show he'd be so needlessly rude or confrontational to Dan Benjamin, or mock or interrupt him.

There was one thing, 2-3 weeks ago, where they were talking about Kubrick's aborted Holocaust film, and Gruber (clumsily quoting Kubrick) said "Schindler's List" was a "feel good movie" (in that it was about several hundred people saved vs. six million killed, which was the film Kubrick was wanting to make). Benjamin seemed a bit taken aback and you can tell it bothered him. Benjamin is always so friendly and easygoing, so it's obvious when he's upset or angry.

Also, that recent Readability blowup where Gruber called everyone involved "scumbags", both on DF and numerous times on the episode. Jeffrey Zeldman co-hosts a show on 5by5 with Benjamin and he was somehow involved in that app and you could tell Dan was uncomfortable at Gruber's constant ranting and name-calling, and how it involved a fellow 5by5 host.

In fact, the past 3-4 episodes have come across very different and icy. You can hear Benjamin trying so hard to do a show and pull out input from Gruber, but John is just all numbly, surly and "one-word answer" so often. Three weeks ago, I remember thinking "something feels off...I wonder if they had a blowout?"

Seems maybe they did?

I just wonder if all the above built up and perhaps Benjamin finally called Gruber on his bullcrap (someone needs to) and Gruber took his ball and went home (or, rather, took his ball to another playground).

[Brave Ulysses]

which makes his most recent post about Dan Harmon and his refreshing honesty about being fired somewhat ironic.

[pscates2.0]

That occurred to me when I saw that yesterday. I imagine the reason/details will come out (they always do).

The Mule guy (Montiero) tweeted Friday that Gruber had approached them. So my "Gruber took his ball and went elsewhere" theory holds water. Something happened - personally, financially, ethically, etc. - that caused John and Dan to fall out and Gruber took the show somewhere else.

I don't think he'd be getting hammered in the reviews do bad had he renamed it. Since 2007 "The Talk Show" was a Gruber/Benjamin affair, each providing a good balance to the other host.

He should've just called it "Daring Firecast" or something and I bet people wouldn't be so bothered. Daring Fireball is, after all, a bigger, more recognizable name and brand than the generic-sounding "Talk Show". If he's going solo, he should've just folded it under the thing he's already best known for. Would've made some sense and less like he's sticking it to others...

IMO.

The silence on this, from all involved, is deafening. So you know it wasn't anything planned or amicable. At all.

[torifile]

Well he's also been an asshole to the people asking "what happened?" His latest linked list items just confirm how much disdain he has for people interested in the show and the personalities. I don't care a whole lot but I don't expect to be mocked for wondering. He's only who he is because of his following. We'll see how well that works out for him if he continues acting like such an ass.

[chucker]

A few things:

• Dan's a bit of a calmer personality, and I think John underestimates how much this helped moderate things. You gotta have some balance.
• Mike, OTOH, is quite the opposite; he makes John look calm. Which is not to say Mike isn't insightful, btw; he had this video together with his lawyer which I quite enjoyed. But, y'know, everything in moderation.
• I find that John is great at writing, not really that good at spoken presentations, and even less great at (the even more spontaneous medium of) podcasts. Given proper preparations, his signal-noise ratio is just right.

[pscates2.0]

Originally Posted by torifile Well he's also been an asshole to the people asking "what happened?" His latest linked list items just confirm how much disdain he has for people interested in the show and the personalities. I don't care a whole lot but I don't expect to be mocked for wondering. He's only who he is because of his following. We'll see how well that works out for him if he continues acting like such an ass.

Originally Posted by chucker A few things: Dan's a bit of a calmer personality, and I think John underestimates how much this helped moderate things. You gotta have some balance. Mike, OTOH, is quite the opposite; he makes John look calm. Which is not to say Mike isn't insightful, btw; he had this video together with his lawyer which I quite enjoyed. But, y'know, everything in moderation. I find that John is great at writing, not really that good at spoken presentations, and even less great at (the even more spontaneous medium of) podcasts. Given proper preparations, his signal-noise ratio is just right.

I agree completely with everything you guys said. He's either too stiff/flat (formal presentations) or rambling and unengaged (podcasts).

I don't know. I just hate feeling that an earnest, hard-working guy like Dan Benjamin got screwed over somehow.

Kinda makes it hard to root for Gruber when you know, based on how he's presented himself over the years, he most likely did something class-less and underhanded to bring this about.

Don't mean to be harsh, but it is what it is. You establish an image and patterns, they tend to follow you and do the talking for you. For better or worse...

EDIT: Holy hell, I just noticed my "join" date here at AN...eight years?!? Where does the time go? I wasn't even married for that long...

[chucker]

I don't know if John screwed Dan over. I'm not even sure he could; if anything, The Talk Show helped Dan establish a popular network of other podcasts (though Back To Work certainly helped, too).

I do, however, feel that this transition came off as unprofessional, and BU's point is quite spot-on.

[pscates2.0]

Well, that's the thing. This is a known, popular and big thing. You do kinda owe it to people - supporters, fans and listeners - to offer some sort of statement or reason. You don't have to get into gory details or private, behind-the-scenes stuff. But for neither Gruber or Benjamin to acknowledge or comment on it only leads to crazy, wild-ass speculation and unfair blaming by people like me.



But seriously, someone needs to say something at some point. Just acting like it never happened is only going to make things seem awkward or off.

[709]

I honestly didn't realize this was a sans Benjamin thing until you posted about it. I just listened to it 2 nights ago and there was never any mention of losing the co-host.

Sucks if true. I thought that Benjamin was a great foil to Gruber's ego. During the last show I thought that he talked a bit too much without giving his guest fair and equal time... but figured that would work out once they got the band back together (thought Benjamin was on vacation this week or something). If it's true that it's just Jon, his ego, and a guest, well, I guess I won't be listening for too much longer. So it goes.

[709]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses which makes his most recent post about Dan Harmon and his refreshing honesty about being fired somewhat ironic.

Absolutely. I was thinking the same thing.

[709]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 The Mule guy (Montiero) tweeted Friday that Gruber had approached them. So my "Gruber took his ball and went elsewhere" theory holds water. Something happened - personally, financially, ethically, etc. - that caused John and Dan to fall out and Gruber took the show somewhere else. I don't think he'd be getting hammered in the reviews do bad had he renamed it. Since 2007 "The Talk Show" was a Gruber/Benjamin affair, each providing a good balance to the other host. He should've just called it "Daring Firecast" or something and I bet people wouldn't be so bothered. Daring Fireball is, after all, a bigger, more recognizable name and brand than the generic-sounding "Talk Show". If he's going solo, he should've just folded it under the thing he's already best known for. Would've made some sense and less like he's sticking it to others... IMO. The silence on this, from all involved, is deafening. So you know it wasn't anything planned or amicable. At all.

Honestly, reading it here is the first I've seen of it (hey! I'm busy! ), but I think you've hit every pre-placed nail on their respective heads. Why he just wouldn't break it off and start his own thing (by another name) is the true weirdness. Disingenuous at best, liar at worst.

Ugh. And I like him too. Not just his site, I like how he's honest about things to a fault and potentially to his detriment. If all of this turns out to be true I'll have to rethink that.

[torifile]

At least Gruber didn't do the show on the new network/announce the split before the 5by5 app was released. *That* would have been a dick move.

[kieran]

The post on DF announcing the move threw me for a loop, but listening back, there did seem to be some growing animosity between Gruber & Benjamin.

It just seems weird that there hasn't been any acknowledgement, even just a simple post saying "Hey, we decided to move on. We wish each other the best"

It's just crazy, and The Talk Show was my favorite one of the 5by5 podcasts, but I don't know if I'll continue listening. I'll give the sans-Benjamin version a chance, but we'll see. I'll still listen to the other 5by5 ones I like (Hypercritical with Siracusa and Build & Analyze with marco Arment)

The whole situation is just odd.

[Mac+]

I haven't been listening to the podcast, but if you have the Safari extension "DF with comments" there are currently 64 comments on it. Certainly a hot topic.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/201...-show#comments

Also, this gem of an image was posted in the comments section suggesting this was on the back of the DF T-Shirt design he is currently spruiking.

[Robo]

There was sooooo much nerd drama about the switch on the Twitterverse. People were going insane.

Gruber remains a better writer than podcaster. (That's not meant to be critical; he's just a really good writer. And I suspect I'd be the same way.)

[torifile]

Unsubbed df and subbed loopinsight.com

Bloggers are fungible. Dalrymple has as many good insights as Gruber without the disrespect and snark towards his audience.

[pscates2.0]

Yeah, that's a shame. If Gruber were half as likable, personality-wise, as Jim Dalrymple he could write his own ticket.

Not that "being nice" is a crucial priority in business (or life)...but I'm just naive and old-fashioned enough to believe it doesn't hurt. Being an abrasive, off-putting twat on the Internet takes no real skill or talent anymore...thousands do it by the truckload, and it's no longer novel (if it ever was).

To be have good insights and opinions, be witty when it counts, write well and not be someone most people would love to punch in the teeth...that's special. And an increasingly rare commodity, it seems. Seems enough folks have made their bones by being an unrepentant jackass that it serves as inspiration for others coming up. To the point that when I encounter a Dan Benjamin, Jason Snell or Dalrymple type in my online travels, it throws me momentarily because I keep thinking "where's the a-hole part? Shouldn't it have been revealed by now?!"



We all have our moments - goodness knows I do - but I'd like to think I'm not just outright (and purposefully) hateful or arrogant, or take pleasure in crapping on the very people who help support me (in Gruber's case, readers and listeners...clients and project partners in my case). It's a cliché - one often applied to movie stars and professional athletes - but where would these people be if not for those who go to see their movies or ballgames? Or read their websites and listen to their podcasts? People like Gruber would *gasp* have to wake up at 6-7am (instead of noon-ish, which was his running schtick on the show) and actually work for a living.



It's a balancing act, and some do it better than others.

John Gruber, for all his insight, position of authority, fame and inside track to Apple, never seemed to quite grasp the "no need to be a dick about it all" rule. I like reading DF, but I can also go days and weeks (and longer), so it's not like I need it. In fact, it's kinda the other way around...people in his line of work need us more than we need them. Sometimes people don't learn this until it's too late, and they've crapped away all their support, goodwill and "second chances" (I'm talking about anyone in the public eye who abuses or neglects his role and position of authority, not just Internet writers).

Unfortunate, because when he's not being that way he's hilarious and very listenable. It's just that those moods/moments seem to be (alcohol-fueled?) exceptions.

Eh, it's just a silly tech podcast. There are bigger, more important things in the world, I realize.

Still, lessons to be learned all around...

Chief among them: don't spend 90% of your existence being an insufferable crank, so that when things take a turn for you, good or bad, you've actually got people in your corner, pulling for you in the ways that truly matter. They'll share in your successes, lift you up in your failures.

Just my 2¢. But I'm right, of course.

[Xaqtly]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Just my 2¢. But I'm right, of course.

You insufferable crank!

[kieran]

Dan Benjamin has released a special podcast addressing the Talk Show situation.

http://5by5.tv/specials/6

Gruber wanted to move on. Simple as that. Although, Benjamin is upset about the fact that Gruber kept The Talk Show name. He wanted to do a final show to bring it to an end and hopes to remain friends.

Glad there is finally a comment on it from one of the participants.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by kieran Dan Benjamin has released a special podcast addressing the Talk Show situation. http://5by5.tv/specials/6 Gruber wanted to move on. Simple as that. Although, Benjamin is upset about the fact that Gruber kept The Talk Show name. He wanted to do a final show to bring it to an end and hopes to remain friends. Glad there is finally a comment on it from one of the participants.

It sounds like Benjamin found out last week? I am done with Gruber. I thought that the snark was part of his shtick but it's part of who he is and I don't like that in people. I'll read about Apple stuff elsewhere. He wasn't all that special.

[pscates2.0]

Dan Benjamin wins Classiest Guy on the Internet for May 2012.

Seriously, that was about how I expected him to be. I know he's probably chewing hard on some of it, but he knows he's not the one coming off with a black eye so it's easier for him to be gracious and cool about it.

The new Talk Show is getting HAMMERED at iTunes...

I don't mean that maliciously and I'm not trying to sound like I'm gloating (well, maybe a little because I believe in karma being the most brutal mother-humper to ever walk the earth...and I love watching it applied where/when deserved), but I just love how it went from a solid 5-star, nothing-but-raves while on 5by5 with John and Dan, to...this. People are, um, "lashing out" a bit.

I'm guessing this is the first time Gruber's ever caught such grief, en masse. There have always been pockets of people who don't like him (but it was almost Apple-haters or Android fans, pissed at his perceived "fanboy" leanings, and how he mocks/ridicules some of these other companies). But, with this, it's just outright "he's a jerk, period" sentiments...from all quarters!

Benjamin's right...if John wasn't happy, things could've surely been worked out to where at least a proper final show was performed and aired (John certainly mumbled and slept walk through enough shows as it is...what would one more have hurt him to do?). Reasons given, goodbyes said, air cleared, thank-yous given, everyone made known that there are no hard feelings or serious hurt anywhere, etc. I guarantee you, had they done it that way there wouldn't be 1/10th of the drama, anger, confusion, bad blood, negative reviews, etc. There just wouldn't, because everyone would all know and be on the same page and it wouldn't be an "ugly surprise". And that he took the show name/artwork (and reputation/momentum) with him instead of thinking "hmmm, The Talk Show, as people know it, is now no more. I'll start fresh with a new name, new network, new format...".

That none of the above seemed to even cross Gruber's mind - that perhaps he owned the audience, and certainly Dan, this much - speaks volumes.

I don't give a rip if Dan's okay with it (he's obviously not), you just don't do that. And that Gruber and Monteiro have been acting like such twats about it all - the mockery and sideways comments. As classy and gracious as Benjamin came off in four minutes of his special broadcast, Gruber and the others have come across the complete opposite over 72 hours.

Think about that...the guy who should be upset, raving and taking his frustration out publicly, isn't. And, on the flip side...can you imagine John Gruber coming out and saying anything similarly gracious and classy to/about Dan and his time with him? Because I can't.

Class. Some people just have it. And others couldn't buy it with all the money in the world.

What's going to be funny will be the reactions and comments tossed his way at WWDC in a few weeks.

Oh, to be a fly on the wall at Moscone for that week...

[torifile]

More snark and disrespect from Gruber. Sturm und Drang. What a complete asshole.

[Jason]

I switched away from Gruber months ago. I got bored of his fan boy nonsense and his really tiring and predictable habit of simply combing back through the Internet (sometimes five or six years) and digging up some quote by someone and ridiculing it.

It's easy to make fun of anyone's comments in hindsight.

I like Apple as much as many of you guys but it seems Gruber forgot that the only reason he's now on the Apple inside track is because he's basically been a patsy for them for so long and completely blind to anyone who even remotely criticises them.

Apple are a company just like others and occasionally they goof up but Gruber has a way of constantly defending every action of theirs that I just found nauseating after a while.

I haven't followed this latest scandal but it doesn't surprise me at all.

The guy writes a tech blog on the Internet. Get over yourself, Dude.

[zippy]

Meh. I like Gruber. None of this changes anything for me.

[Kraetos]

I've met him. He is quite nice in person. He is a much better writer than speaker, though.

I don't listen to the podcast frequently, because I'd rather just read DF, but I agree that it's weird he didn't just make it the Daring Fireball Podcast and retire The Talk Show name.

He is definitely a dick, but he's also up there in with Mossberg and Pogue in terms of clout. Also, I admire that he generates enough from his writing to support himself and his family. (Ever done the math on his sponsorships? DF is probably pretty expensive to host, but even if it costs him 100k a year to maintain, he is still taking home six figures. For blogging.)

[Bryson]

I'd actually given up on The Talk Show, because they both irritate me. Gruber was unnecessarily surly, and Benjamin was frequently just plain wrong. (The killer for me was the day that he asserted that ITV in the UK had a handful of old lady viewers so Apple could just go ahead and use the name, no problem.) I don't think I'll bother subscribing to the new one.

And it's a really terrible name for a podcast. God knows why he would take it. (Or why Benjamin would care if he did.)

[pscates2.0]

Ah, you know Dan wasn't serious with his iTV comment. He often says silly, "outrageous" stuff like that (he talks about Canada, people in Florida, movie theater patrons, his experiences at various stores and restaurants or with online companies, etc.). It's just something he does, but he says it straight - and quick - enough that it sounds serious (or that he's not obviously joking around)...which makes it funnier.

The only thing I didn't like about Dan on the Talk Show was how he just seemed to cower beneath Gruber's surliness or refusal to participate. It was painful, at times, listening to Dan trying hard. Hell, in a weird way he should be glad to be rid of someone so obviously not into it all, or enjoying himself. He's got people like John Siracusa, Jim Dalrymple, Horace Deidu and Merlin Mann...who all seem to be "present" in their shows, and give somewhat of a damn how they come across.

Looking back at everything with a clearer, detached eye, Gruber was the reason anytime there was an awkwardness, silence or rough edges on The Talk Show. Half the time, especially since the holidays, he was barely trying. Shows up whenever (show never started on time and it was always because he was still sleeping or writing or reading, or watching the finish to a Bond movie that he had an entire week to view...happened numerous times, the show starting 15-30 minutes late...no apologies, etc.), chomping an apple or loudly sipping coffee on the air, taking forever to get his Skype and mic situation dialed-in, etc. All the while just being all mumbly or outright ignoring (and sometimes hostile to) Dan's questions, greetings, offered topics, etc.

Just stuck me as really unprofessional (the eating/drinking right into the mic, and complaining about how he had to because he was so hungry). He did this show forever, knowing the recording/broadcast time every week. That he couldn't maybe wake up 30 minutes early on these days to eat his apple and sip his coffee before going on the air, and acting like the show took him by surprise, mid-snack? I think he did it just to be obnoxious, or maybe he thought it was "cute" because enough sycophantic idiots in the live chat room would laugh or cheer his antics on.

The jury is out on Gruber's new gig, but I believe I'm safe in saying that Benjamin's broadcasting life has probably improved and gotten a little easier and more enjoyable.

[kieran]

The "new" old Talk Show was pretty good, but I wonder how Gruber is going to continue going forward. is he going to just have guest hosts? Or is he going to try and find a permanent co-host?

There are plenty of other podcasts on 5by5 to keep Benjamin going and he's even said that he has no room to do another one at the moment. Maybe not doing the Talk Show anymore frees him up to do a show he's been putting off? There are plenty of other people that want to do a show.