[Kraetos]

I cannot for the life of me figure out why the 13" MBP still exists.

For the same price as the Air, you can have a heavier, thicker Mac with a lower resolution screen, a drastically slower hard drive, worse battery life!

If they had given it an SSD option, dedicated graphics, and a 1440x900 screen, then it would make sense. But as is? With that sad little 1280x800 screen? Ugh.

I mean, who's it for? People who claim they still need an optical drive?

It doesn't fit in the lineup. It just doesn't. I don't get it. The worst part about it is that people are going to think it's "better" than the Air because of the name and the bigger HD. But it isn't. It's worse by every measurable metric except for sheer storage.



I'm hoping this is an 8-to-12 month stopgap until they release a 13" and 17" Retina pro, but why even bother? Why sell the damn thing at all?

[709]

Maybe some people still need an optical drive?

Of course we'd expect Apple to be the first to do away with somewhat dated tech, but they've obviously decided that the screen is more important.

Apple isn't at the point yet to do away with it.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by 709 Maybe some people still need an optical drive?

Then it's a good thing Apple sells one.

[709]

For another extra 100-70 bucks. Great. I can just lug this brick around when I need it (ands obviously, some people do).

[torifile]

Kraetos, you're thinking too forward. Seriously. There are people who think that they need an optical and an external won't cut it. Yes, if they got educated on the matter, they might realize they don't but there are lots of people who still buy Macs from places like Best Buy or Amazon where they don't have that luxury.

And I bet it's a very high margin product.

We know it's kind of a pointless computer these days but many don't. The thing is, would I necessarily recommend an MBA to everyone who wanted that small of a computer? Probably not because the perception that they are missing something by having an external optical.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by 709 I can just lug this brick around when I need it (ands obviously, some people do).

IMO you're looking at it backwards. Why carry around an optical drive when I don't need it 98% of the time? Why add a component to my computer that is louder, more power hungry, and less reliable than any other component in there?

Every single person I've encountered who thinks they need an optical drive, doesn't. If you push them they will usually admit they haven't used it in months, even years. It's like the floppy drive at this point: everyone thinks they are a necessity, but they aren't, and most of them are holding on to memories of using a computer from 10 years ago when all their software and media came on plastic silver platters.

And every person I have pushed onto the Air, against their "but I need more space and I need CDs" complaints, has loved it, first and foremost because of the speed.

Optical drives are much closer to their deathbed than floppies were when Apple released the iMac. But that is because Apple was the one who cut the cord. If nobody cuts the cord then we're stuck with the damn things for longer than we need to be.

Someone has to stand up and say "enough is enough, this technology is old and we don't need it anymore." We used to be able to rely on Apple for that reality check. That's why this is so disappointing.

[evan]

Originally Posted by torifile We know it's kind of a pointless computer these days but many don't. The thing is, would I necessarily recommend an MBA to everyone who wanted that small of a computer? Probably not because the perception that they are missing something by having an external optical.

I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone I would recommend the 13" Macbook Pro to. I don't think anyone's "need" for a built-in cd drive trumps all the other positives of the MBA.

[pscates2.0]

Kraetos is gearing up for another heated, multi-page debate. Where's Brave Ulysses?

I kid because I love.

The way I see it...they're keeping one line around with "everything on it", for those who need it (or think they need it; it doesn't really matter anyway, since it's their money and purchase, and I don't give a rip what someone I'll never know buys with their own money). Got nice new processors, graphics and USB 3.0.

But they offer TWO lines of forward-looking notebooks that do away with the optical drive, and offer nothing but SSD storage.

Focus on that, and don't let it get you down.



By this time next year or so, the new "next-generation" MacBook Pro will probably be the default pro option (the price should drop some as these Retina panels and SSD come down some) and the MacBook Pros as we know them (optical drives, traditional spinning hard drives, etc.) will be retired. There's obviously something in Apple's internal research or demographics that tells them "we're not quite ready to just go balls-out on SSD and no-optical-drives just yet".

Cool thing is, it's very easy to add an SSD to the MacBook Pro. I know that doesn't take care of the resolution and optical drive concerns, but you could get a really sweet, full-featured 13" MacBook Pro with a snappy 128-256GB SSD installed yourself, after-the-fact.

[709]

Originally Posted by Kraetos IMO you're looking at it backwards. Why carry around an optical drive when I don't need it 98% of the time? Why add a component to my computer that is louder, more power hungry, and less reliable than any other component in there? Every single person I've encountered who thinks they need an optical drive, doesn't. If you push them they will usually admit they haven't used it in months, even years. It's like the flppy drive at this point: everyone thinks they are a necessity, but they aren't, and most of them are holding on to memories of using a computer from 10 years ago when all their software and media came on silver platters. Optical drives are much closer to their deathbed than floppies were when Apple released the iMac.

IMO you're looking at it from your usage, and your "data" indicates that you're tech savvy as are your friends. That's not the market Apple is appeasing here. Obviously.

If you discount the Redbox/Netflix set as a minor playing in Apple's decision to include a DVD slot in at least one of their laptops than you're more delusional than you sound asking for a 15" iPad.

[Robo]

Sidestepping the optical drive thing, some people might just need more than the 128GB of storage the $1199 MBA offers. Doubling the flash is $300 more, and that still only gets you half the capacity of the base MBP, or a third the capacity of the equally-priced model.

Also, some people might just rather have the MBP's more powerful processors.

[Matsu]

I want to see benchmarks of the new retina MBP

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Not to mention, the 13" MBP has wayyyy more storage space than an MBA. MBAs with 512GB SSDs are $1999 and up.

[709]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Kraetos is gearing up for another heated, multi-page debate. Where's Brave Ulysses? I kid because I love.

God knows I love Kraetos, and I agree with him 90% of the time. But he's had a real corncob up his ass lately, and I'm not one to back away from twisting that .

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by 709 If you discount the Redbox/Netflix set as a minor playing in Apple's decision to include a DVD slot in at least one of their laptops than you're more delusional than you sound asking for a 15" iPad.

Well anyone with Netflix is probably streaming... and that's my point...

I don't see a lot of RedBox commercials. You know what I do see a lot of? Verizon and Xfinity commercials that are all about streaming and the cloud. And then there's stuff like HBO GO which is getting immensely popular.

And didn't Blockbuster just go out of business for reals?

DVDs are dead. Really, they are. All the content providers are pushing streaming. You can't throw a rock in an electronics store without hitting something that hypes streaming, or the cloud.

Is there still a market for them? Yes. Was there still a market for floppy drives in 1998? Yes! Was there still a market for iPod mini in 2005? Yes!

Apple does not do things because there is a market for it. Apple, historically, is the kind of company that dumps old tech before anyone else. The time to dump DVDs has come; you can tell just by looking at what's selling nowaways. Netflix Streaming and HBO GO are all the rage... I can't remember the last time I saw someone using the Redbox kiosk in my local grocery store.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Robo Sidestepping the optical drive thing, some people might just need more than the 128GB of storage the $1199 MBA offers. Doubling the flash is $300 more, and that still only gets you half the capacity of the base MBP, or a third the capacity of the equally-priced model. Also, some people might just rather have the MBP's more powerful processors.

This makes a lot of sense to me. But that just makes the lack of dedicated graphics and the low res screen all the more befuddling.

As it stands the MBP 13 has one foot in the pro camp and one in the consumer camp, and as a result it does neither particularly well. Is it a pro machine? Then give it a high res screen and dedicated graphics. Or is it a consumer machine? Then drop it entirely and let the MBA take over at that size and pricepoint.

But as it stands doesn't have the features pros would want (screen, graphics) but it's still Pro-ish because of the processors. It just seems like a weird in-between model that doesn't really please anyone...

... which wouldn't be a problem, except at that price point, and with the "Pro" moniker, people are going to think it's a better machine than the Air when it isn't.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by 709 God knows I love Kraetos, and I agree with him 90% of the time. But he's had a real corncob up his ass lately, and I'm not one to back away from twisting that .

I let BU draw me in when I shouldn't

[adamb]

I think it's pretty un-Apple-esque to have 15" next generation and non-next generation models. To me it's like having an iMac with a floppy drive. That was the initial dueling aspect I thought of during the announcement.

[709]

Originally Posted by Kraetos Well anyone with Netflix is probably streaming... and that's my point... I don't see a lot of RedBox commercials. You know what I do see a lot of? Verizon and Xfinity commercials that are all about streaming and the cloud. And then there's stuff like HBO GO which is getting immensely popular. And didn't Blockbuster just go out of business for reals? DVDs are dead. Really, they are. All the content providers are pushing streaming. You can't throw a rock in an electronics store without hitting something that hypes streaming, or the cloud. Is there still a market for them? Yes. Was there still a market for floppy drives in 1998? Yes! Was there still a market for iPod mini in 2005? Yes! Apple does not do things because there is a market for it. Apple, historically, is the kind of company that dumps old tech before anyone else. The time to dump DVDs has come; you can tell just by looking at what's selling nowaways. Netflix Streaming and HBO GO are all the rage... I can't remember the last time I saw someone using the Redbox kiosk in my local grocery store.

I get your point, believe me. I'm just saying that you're pushing forward a tad too soon. You don't see Redbox users? OMG, I see nothing but Redbox users when I try to push my cart around their waddling asses. Maybe a regional thing. I dunno.

And yes, I have Netflix streaming. I also have 3 DVDs at once so I can watch movies my gf would never watch (and are not streaming). Maybe I'm an exception. Would an external suit me fine? Of course. But then, I'm in your camp. I have externals all around me.

Thing is, DVDs aren't dead. They're dying, of course, but until studios stop releasing every goddamn movie they have onto DVD, um, your argument is basically future-talk.

[Kraetos]

I agree, this is the least streamlined portable lineup Apple has had since before the TiBook. Two different 13" and 15" models? Models from different lineups with the same base price? Why is two Airs and two Pros at 11/13 and 15/17 not the obvious solution here?

[pscates2.0]

Here's something to keep in mind. Maybe there's a reason Apple unveiled the "next-generation" MacBook Pro today, along with the modest upgrades to the existing line? There's no rule saying, 6-8 months from now, based on sales data they'll have access to, that Apple can't/won't discontinue the traditional MacBook Pro line (they apparently canned the 17" model today, in one quick blow, so they're obviously not beyond lowering the axe if/when they feel it's time).

They're obviously sitting on some data showing showing 13"-and-15"-models-are-doing-better-than-17" trends, and once this new, next-generation Pro is out in the world for 6-9 months they'll have new data to pull from and help make a decision.

Also, they're not above doing staggered releases either. Who's to say a 13" (and/or 17") next-generation MacBook Pro aren't coming by year's end (or early 2013)? If/when they do, then we can surely say goodbye to any stopgap, "yesterday's tech" models.

NOTE: Krateos, I agree with your stance, BTW. I wouldn't buy a 13" Pro, as is, knowing what I know (and knowing that I don't use/need an optical drive). But I also know that my outlook, usage and needs don't reflect the broad range of users out there. I'm just me, and even my little cluster of tech-savvy friends don't represent the population-at-large. On top of that, Apple has access to info that I don't and as much as I love playing armchair CEO and questioning some of their more perplexing, oddball moves, I fully realize a) they seem to know what they're doing (they're kinda on a roll lately ) and b) they probably don't need my help or input (as much as I feel compelled to give it, unsolicited).

In any case, I'm not going to let it bother me. What would bother me is if they kept the 13" Pro around and there were no future-looking alternatives to purchase instead. Since that's not the case, I don't sweat it. These traditional models will most likely be phased-out in 9-16 months' time, I'm betting. SSD will continue to drop, and the Mac App Store and other online-based software and media outlets will become more commonplace and used. And there will be a natural, widespread feeling of "okay, we really don't need these drives built-in anymore" among way more users (even those who think they can't do without them, but who will eventually realize all the things they're using a SuperDrive for are replicated by the online stores, 8-32GB thumb drives, iCloud and Time Machine. We're just not there yet. We must not be, otherwise Apple surely would've taken the opportunity today to do an iMac-like "we're done with this tech, as of today" move.

Which kinda makes me think we might not be in for a radical iMac redesign this year (or, if we are, I bet you $5 they keep around a $999 optical drive/traditional hard drive model) for those who need (or think they need) the capacity and SuperDrive.

It would've been quite a different show had Apple introduced the 15" next-generation MacBook Pro (at $2,199) and killed off the 13" and 15" "old school" models.

Talk about people losing their minds...

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by 709 I get your point, believe me. I'm just saying that you're pushing forward a tad too soon. You don't see Redbox users? OMG, I see nothing but Redbox users when I try to push my cart around their waddling asses. Maybe a regional thing. I dunno.

A agree, it's a tad too soon, but most people would have argued that it was a tad too soon to kill the floppy in 1998, and honestly, they were probably right. Apple, historically, makes these kinds of calls earlier than everyone else.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, and by this time next year the ODD will truly be dead. It just sucks for the people who want a MacBook between now and then who are going to get a slower, bulkier MacBook than they need because "Pro" sounded better. This "lets make two 13" and two 15" notebooks and let them decide!" is the kind of waffling that Apple usually avoids like the plague.

You're almost certainly right about RedBox usage varying from region to region, but it seems like just about nobody uses them up here. Just about everyone I know uses some combination of Netflix, Hulu, OnDemand, and iTunes for their entertainment needs. And that's not just my friends, I hear the same thing from my parents... that even their friends are abandoning DVDs in favor of OnDemand and TVs with built in Netflix.

And then of course there's my Dad who buys everything through iTunes, but he's the only one I know

[709]

I think the 17" is done 'scates. Sad as that is, I think they're going to sell the remainder of the stock and say jack-shit about it. There's precedent for that.

[709]

Originally Posted by Kraetos A agree, it's a tad too soon, but most people would have argued that it was a tad too soon to kill the floppy in 1998, and honestly, they were probably right. Apple, historically, makes these kinds of calls earlier than everyone else.

Agreed, but I think you're looking at the two in the same light, when they are vastly different.

The floppy was nearly always a piece that you put into your computer to install programs - maybe a backup for small stuff (all hail the Zip!!! er, so sad...) The DVD is no such beast. Sure, you can use it for data backup, but that's such a minuscule part of its use today. Until the studios get on board with non-physical objects (they won't, for many, many years) the disc is still in play, be it DVD or Blu-ray.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by adamb I think it's pretty un-Apple-esque to have 15" next generation and non-next generation models. To me it's like having an iMac with a floppy drive. That was the initial dueling aspect I thought of during the announcement.

They've done that before, though — they sold the iMac G3 alongside the iMac G4, and I'm pretty sure they sold the Power Mac G4 alongside the Power Mac G5 for a time. Apple typically tries to replace old models with new models at the same price point, but when the new models can't be made cheap enough — say, when they're built around a new display technology — Apple has shown a willingness to keep the old model around. The alternative would be not introducing the new technologies until they could be sold in a model at the same price as the outgoing model, and sometimes Apple doesn't want to wait around for that.

So this isn't new, or something ZOMG Steve would have never approved of, or anything. Going to expensive retina displays is just a major generational change for the Mac, like going from cheap CRTs to expensive LCDs, or cheap G4s to expensive G5s.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by 709 Until the studios get on board with non-physical objects (they won't, for many, many years) the disc is still in play, be it DVD or Blu-ray.

But between UltraViolet and iTunes, aren't the studios already 100% on board with non-physical objects? Is there any mainstream movie that came out in the past 12 months that isn't on one of the two aforementioned services?

All streaming, all the time, is already practical, but you're making it seem like it isn't. Granted, this has been true for less than 12 months, but I'm pretty sure at this point there's no difference in selection (for new releases) between digital and physical.

The problem isn't technical or even legal, it's psychological. People associate spending a discrete amount of money, one time, with receiving a physical object. That's why streaming is taking off, but individual sales are still staggering. Never mind that iTunes movies are cheaper, impossible to lose, and still contain all the extras: you don't get a physical thing when you buy them, so most people don't do it.

[709]

Originally Posted by Kraetos But between UltraViolet and iTunes, aren't the studios already 100% on board with non-physical objects? Is there any mainstream movie that came out in the past 12 months that isn't available on at least one of the two aforementioned services?

And DVD? And Blu-ray?

Like I said.

[709]

Originally Posted by Kraetos All streaming, all the time, is already practical, but you're making it seem like it isn't.

What? Wait what? I said no such thing.

Unless you're talking about the films that I mentioned aren't available for streaming.... In that case... wut?

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Kraetos The problem isn't technical or even legal, it's psychological. People associate spending a discrete amount of money, one time, with receiving a physical object. That's why streaming is taking off, but individual sales are still staggering. Never mind that iTunes movies are cheaper, impossible to lose, and still contain all the extras: you don't get a physical thing when you buy them, so most people don't do it.

It seems like you're making the case for keeping optical drives around, to me.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by 709 And DVD? And Blu-ray? Like I said.

I am definitely not understanding you. I'm pretty sure that any new movie that comes out on DVD/Blu-Ray also comes out on iTunes/UltraViolet, thus the studios are already "on board with non-physical objects."

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Robo It seems like you're making the case for keeping optical drives around, to me.

I can see how that argument could go either way. My point is there is no technical reason to keep ODDs, it's all in people's heads. From that point I'd argue that Apple should just pull the trigger, since there is no technical reason not to. People will get over it, the sooner the better.

Apple has killed successful products before because they didn't fit in the lineup anymore.