[chucker]

The frequency of OS updates doesn't really say much about their comprehensiveness, though. Windows updates are more spaces out than OS X ones, but there's also Service Packs in between.

[alcimedes]

Originally Posted by chucker The frequency of OS updates doesn't really say much about their comprehensiveness, though. Windows updates are more spaces out than OS X ones, but there's also Service Packs in between.

I might have been out of the game on the Windows side for a while now, but have they added anything major functionality wise via service packs in the last few years?

What’s new in Service Pack 1? In short, there is nothing impressive in Service Pack 1.

That was the review of the Win7 one.

The Vista Service Pack wasn't much better. I think you have to go all the way back to XP before MS provided serious upgrades to an OS via the Service Patch route.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by alcimedes I might have been out of the game on the Windows side for a while now, but have they added anything major functionality wise via service packs in the last few years? That was the review of the Win7 one. The Vista Service Pack wasn't much better. I think you have to go all the way back to XP before MS provided serious upgrades to an OS via the Service Patch route.

Right; XP SP2 added Security Center, which is fairly major. I do think it's fair to say that, given similar time ranges, the accumulation of OS X point releases versus Service Packs isn't all that different — take, say, 10.6.1 through 10.6.8 and compare that to, say, Vista SP 2, and you end up with a similar scope of changes.

[alcimedes]

Originally Posted by chucker Right; XP SP2 added Security Center, which is fairly major. I do think it's fair to say that, given similar time ranges, the accumulation of OS X point releases versus Service Packs isn't all that different — take, say, 10.6.1 through 10.6.8 and compare that to, say, Vista SP 2, and you end up with a similar scope of changes.

Right, but then on top of the point release updates, Apple is updating the OS every 1.5 - 2.5 years now.

Windows 7 is already 3 years old, and here comes Windows 8. Windows 8 is getting lukewarm reviews at best, which means that it's likely Apple will release another 1 - 2 OS updates before MS releases whatever comes after Windows 8.

There's going to be a huge time frame in there for Apple to capture annoyed Windows customers.

[chucker]

Sure; arguably, a bit like Vista.

Still, I'd argue that accelerating the release cycle doesn't have an effect on that per se.

[addison]

Microsoft is supposedly moving to an accelerated release schedule going forward. That's what people like Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley have said so I'm assuming there is a decent chance of it happening.

[PB PM]

I kind of wish Apple and others would slow down the upgrade cycles, rather than speeding them up. Geeze, next thing you know we'll be upgrading the OS every week like Chrome and Firefox.

[Kraetos]

Shipping in a month. Still no hands on. Still no price.

Windows 8 is gonna make Vista look like a success. Some days I think that Microsoft is trying to run itself into the ground.

[Jason]

The first Surface TV commercial.

http://youtu.be/8mSckyoAMHg

I don't want to be a doomsayer, MS, but while it all looks like an episode of Glee, can you tell me what this thing actually does because it sure as shit isn't apparent from this ad.

[Jason]

Interesting that they talked up the keyboard as an integral feature/selling point but it doesn't actually come with the cheapest model.

Weird.

[Kraetos]

Pricing. Finally.

32 GB ARM, no cover: $499
32 GB ARM, cover: $599
64 GB ARM, cover: $699

Still no Intel pricing (or ship date, I suppose) or cellular models.

I'm not really sure why anyone would buy this over an iPad, given that it costs the same and Microsoft's app market is anemic. The one everyone seems to be interested in is the Intel one, which didn't get a price, which I can only assume means it won't be shipping next week.

And the iPad mini announcement is really gonna suck the wind out of the Surface launch. Oops.

I just have so many WTFs about this, and pricing doesn't really assuage them, in fact the whole "no keyboard on the base model" has added a new WTF to my list:

• Why did Microsoft spend so much time porting Windows to ARM? You can't run Windows apps on ARM Surface tablets, so all it seems to have done is delayed the launch to the point where iOS's App Store advantage is potentially insurmountable. How did "Developers, Developers, Developers" Microsoft miss this boat?
• Why is the Intel model not shipping? That seems to be the one everyone is interested in.
• Why does the base model not come with a keyboard? The whole point of the base model seems to be to meet the iPads $499 price, but without the keyboard, what does Surface offer that iPad doesn't? I think that a 16 GB model with a keyboard would be a much better choice at $499. I mean, look at their marketing: they're pretty much hanging it all on the keyboard, but entry-level buyers don't get one!
• Why no cellular models? Seems to me that Microsoft needs to bear down on the enterprise market, and cellular connectivity is a huge selling point for that market which iPad has and Surface doesn't.
• Where is the content? Is there an Amazon app? Kindle? Netflix? Hulu? Spotify? Pandora? Shit, does it even have the Zune marketplace?
• Where are the business apps? Where is a version of Office for Metro whatever-the-fuck-it's-called-now?

Given all that, why would any human being in full control of their faculties even consider buying one of these? What makes it different from the dozens of other "iPad killers" that have been paraded around for the past 30 months?

Where is the crystal clear, no ambiguity answer to the question everyone is dancing around: "why should I buy this instead of an iPad?" Hint: it's not the keyboard. They really only need one reason. One well rounded, useful, compelling feature. Platforms have been built on less. It should have been Office. I have no idea what they are thinking, telling people to switch UIs just so they can use the same Office we've had for years, designed for keyboard and mouse, with their chubby fingers.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kraetos The one everyone seems to be interested in is the Intel one, which didn't get a price, which I can only assume means it won't be shipping next week.

I think they've said the (Intel-based) Surface Pro will come a few months later.

Originally Posted by Kraetos Why did Microsoft spend so much time porting Windows to ARM? You can't run Windows apps on ARM Surface tablets, so all it seems to have done is delayed the launch to the point where iOS's App Store advantage is potentially insurmountable. How did "Developers, Developers, Developers" Microsoft miss this boat?

Windows RT is kinda messed up. It would sort of make sense if the Desktop were exclusively there for administrative functions, but pretending their half-baked Office adaptation is a selling point is insulting. That said, Desktop stuff aside, it could be a perfectly valid tablet OS, if they let it. Which they aren't. "No compromises"!

Originally Posted by Kraetos Why is the Intel model not shipping? That seems to be the one everyone is interested in.

I'm assuming in part because they're waiting for a CPU/chipset with halfway decent battery life.

Originally Posted by Kraetos Where is the content? Is there an Amazon app? Kindle? Netflix? Hulu? Spotify? Pandora? Shit, does it even have the Zune marketplace?

Didn't the Zune brand inexplicably get killed?

Oh, and Kindle for Metro does exist. I know because I used it in Greece, back in June. On x86, anyway.

Originally Posted by Kraetos Where are the business apps? Where is a version of Office for Metro whatever-the-fuck-it's-called-now?

Well, there's OneNote MX.

…so far, I hate it.

Originally Posted by Kraetos Where is the crystal clear, no ambiguity answer to the question everyone is dancing around: "why should I buy this instead of an iPad?"

Because Windows®

[Luca]

This thing is done. Deader than dead. No way to recover without outright dropping the price by at least $100 before launch (or maybe including the keyboard cover with all models for no extra charge).

It makes no sense. They go all out marketing the thing, talking up the keyboard (which looks like one of those shitty near-unusable membrane things that you can buy for $10 anywhere), and then they release it at this stupid price. Why even bother? They may as well cut their losses right now, stop manufacturing it, drop it to fire sale prices, cancel all marketing efforts, and go back to making Windows, Office, and Xboxes.

This is not the time for MS to start worrying about profit margins. The Xbox was a loss leader but it got them into the favorable position they're in now. So you know that MS is capable of releasing a competitive product.

And I say all this as someone who doesn't even like the iPad.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Luca It makes no sense. They go all out marketing the thing, talking up the keyboard (which looks like one of those shitty near-unusable membrane things that you can buy for $10 anywhere), and then they release it at this stupid price. Why even bother?

Yeah, chucker's explanation is the most reasonable one.

Microsoft is living in 1996.

They actually think that "Windows" is a selling point, in and of itself.

It'd be funny, if they weren't our last real shot at a non-Android tablet having any success in the market. Now it's just disappointing and sad.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by chucker Because Windows®

It's just sad how true it is that this, by itself, is Microsoft's entire strategy.

I'm with Jason: What the hell is this thing supposed to do? When Apple first marketed the iPad, they showed it doing, you know, stuff, not being danced around in some new age, college, polka thing. What in blazes?

All this jabber and there is still no one who knows what the thing does.

Whatever. Welcome to last place, Microsoft.

[ezkcdude]

Only 148 ppi.

[Jason]

I think the bigger problem here is one of extreme naivety. It would have been much better to have lowered the price and included the keyboarding the base model and just tried to get this thing into as many people's hands as possible.
MS don't seen to understand that they are coming in last to a market where there are already established players.

It's too late to worry about profits (at least for now) and its not like they ate short of cash. They should take a big hit on this because what they don't seem to understand is that this one single product could easily make or break them.

The world is moving ever further into tablets and this simply has to be a success for them. It has to work.

Apple, Google, Amazon and MS all tell us what they think the future is going to be but it's really customers who decide the future.

With the iPad mini coming shortly, we're soon going to be a scenario similar to the MP3 player era where eventually every tablet will be just be thought if as an iPad - so ubiquitous it will be by then.

[thegeriatric]

This is not the tablet you're looking for...................

[kscherer]

Over at Daring Fireball, he linked to an article showing that the 32GB Surface ships with around 12GB of software (the OS and Office RT), which explains why there is no 16GB model. A 16GB would only have 4GB of useable space from the factory! Even still, your brand new, spanking clean 32GB Surface will only have 20GB of useful space.

Uh, I think that will present a problem for consumers. But what do you bet the media ignores it?

[pscates2.0]

All my thoughts and predictions months ago - based simply on past patterns/behavior - seem to have been pretty spot on: too little, too late, no "killer angle", odd pricing, clutter and holdover Windows mentality, a genuine overall sense of "So? What makes this so special and unique?", goofy, trying-too-hard marketing, etc.

It's like Microsoft's greatest hits. Don't we go through this about every 18 months? Ball met talks a lot of lofty, pie-in-the-sky shit at CES, the tech press (because they've had years of conditioning) cream themselves over it, hype builds, dates are pushed back, Microsoft is vague about all the things that matter, it finally hits, the world yawns, Apple (and Apple fanboys) are assigned partial blame, Ballmercsuffers no fallout, CES looms again...rinse and repeat.

The Zune, all over again.

Now I don't feel so mean or off-the-mark.

Nobody is going to buy this, and there's no genuine demand for something so generic and late to the party. The only people buying this will be the ultra-rabid Microsoft fans/groupies...all 43 of them.

I could've saved them a lot of time and money.

[Kraetos]

The OS and built in apps for Surface take up 12 GB.

iOS 6 for iPad 3 takes up 2 GB. And that's with retina assets. Even if you throw in iWork I'm sure that's less than another half gig.

If that doesn't illustrate the difference between Apple's and Microsoft's mentality for the post-PC era, I don't know what does.

And as long as we're on the topic of that reddit AMA, here's my favorite exchange:

Random redditor asks:

I have an iPad 2 and a Galaxy S2. Can you tell me something that'll make me want to shift to your platform? I just can't find a reason. What feature does the Surface have that may not seem like much but makes it amazing to use? Thanks.

To which Panos Panay and the Surface team responds:

I am not sure what you do on your other devices and can not comment on it... however, I know that on Surface you can get a ton of stuff done. Given, we have a full operating system in Windows, we have the full suite of Office available, and the seamless transitioning in and out of different user states with touch cover... the ability to use it all day, use a USB port when needed to connect millions of devices, ultimately you have a full PC at your disposal.... you find yourself accomplishing a ton. Does this help?

Straight from the horse's mouth, folks. Not even Microsoft appears to have a good reason to buy this thing. Anyways, allow me to translate:

I am not sure what you do on your other devices and can not comment on it... however, I know that on Surface you can get a ton of stuff done.

I can't comment because I know your other devices probably have lots interesting apps, so I will handwave this inconvenient truth away by saying I don't know what apps you, specifically, use.

Given, we have a full operating system in Windows,

Windows! Windows Windows Windows! Did I mention Windows? Because, you know, Windows.

we have the full suite of Office available

I really hope this goofy cover keyboard trackpad thing is a hit, because apparently a gimmicky accessory was a higher priority than a built-for-touch version of Office.

and the seamless transitioning in and out of different user states with touch cover

Never mind that the transitioning is completely unnecessary and our competitor's devices don't force an awkward transition on their users, it's seamless!

the ability to use it all day

Microsoft: delivering an experience that Apple users have had for a few years now, since 1975.

use a USB port when needed to connect millions of devices

See, millions! Never mind that few, if any, of these "millions of devices" will work with Surface since you can't install traditional Windows drivers on WinRT, and never mind that cables are becoming increasingly quaint in the age of the Cloud, we have a USB port! Nyah nyah take that Apple!

ultimately you have a full PC at your disposal.... you find yourself accomplishing a ton.

Never mind that Apple has sold 300 million iOS devices and Google has activated 500 million Android devices. They don't run Windows, so they aren't real PCs, and therefore the half-billion or so people using them must not be accomplishing anything.

Does this help?

Was my answer sufficiently vague for you?

[Mugge]

Originally Posted by ezkcdude Only 148 ppi.

But better than the iPad! At least according to MS.



Just like you guys, I'd be very surprised if this train wreck turns into a success.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kraetos See, millions! Never mind that few, if any, of these "millions of devices" will work with Surface since you can't install traditional Windows drivers on WinRT,

Presumably, standard USB class stuff will work: HID keyboards and mice and stuff as well as mass storage devices such as external hard disks.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Mugge But better than the iPad! At least according to MS.

Geez. And people say Apple is the one that relies on marketing bullshit.

Typical Microsoft, though. They don't want to tell you why their product is good, they want to tell you why the Apple or Google product you prefer is bad.

Originally Posted by chucker Presumably, standard USB class stuff will work: HID keyboards and mice and stuff as well as mass storage devices such as external hard disks.

Fair.

I can see how that might be useful for some people, but it's not the killer feature Microsoft seems to think it is.

[JohnnyTheA]

I am trying to figure out what the difference between surface and Microsoft's "pen computing" revoultion they tried to start ten years ago. It sounds like the same thing, Crappy Windows on a stripped down lappy.

[Kraetos]

The bad news just keeps rollin' in...

Why Windows Just Can't Win.

In a nutshell: Apple and Google are also having major events the same week as the Win8 family launch, meaning Win8 news is probably going to get buried as Apple reports another killer quarter and releases the iPad Air, while Google launches the 4th Nexus phone and possibly a Nexus 10.

MS Retail employees don't understand difference between Win8 and WinRT.

One rep told me "They're pretty much the same thing, there is no real huge difference beside the RT is more touch friendly." Minutes later, they admitted: "also it can not do an installation of x86/64 and desktop software.

So... if Microsoft is training their own employees to tell customers that "there is no real huge difference between Win8 and WinRT," what happens when customers buy WinRT devices hoping to run normal Windows apps? (Because lets be honest... why else would someone buy one of these?)

Also, by Microsoft's own admission, there is no huge difference between Win8 and WinRT. But there is a huge difference: one can run legacy Windows apps, the other cant. That would seem to imply that the ability to run legacy Windows apps is, by Microsoft's own admission, not a big deal. But if legacy Windows apps aren't a big deal, then by extension, the legacy Windows interface isn't a big deal... so why did Microsoft expend such a large amount of engineering resources to port the legacy Windows interface to WinRT?

I just, I don't understand Microsoft's reasoning right now. This is the company whos CEO got up on stage and chanted "developers, developers, developers" until you could see his pit-stains from Cupertino. In the past they've shown awareness that that Windows' developer community is by far it's largest strength. Where is that awareness now, when they need it the most? Since the difference between Win8 and WinRT is not important, and the only real consumer-facing difference between them is the ability to run legacy apps, Microsoft is effectively saying that legacy Windows apps are not important, even though that couldn't be further from the truth: legacy Windows apps are the most important aspect of the Windows platform!

What is the point of giving two OSs the same name if they can't run the same software? How does Microsoft not understand this is going to be a massive clusterfuck?

They're... they're just so screwed at this point. How do they not get it? It doesn't even seem like they're learning from their mistakes!

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by ezkcdude Only 148 ppi.

This is the killer... $499 and the most crucial element of the device is vastly inferior. I imagine the Surface Pro tablets will start at $799 or even higher whenever MS decides to announce them.

[Jason]

Windows Evangelist Paul Thurrott's blog (18th Oct)

I’ve been writing about Windows for almost 20 years, and I feel like I’ve kind of seen it all. But for the past several days, I’ve been struggling under the weight of the most brutal email onslaught I’ve ever endured over these two decades. And if my email is any indication, and I believe it is, the majority of people out there have absolutely no idea what Windows RT is. This is a problem. It’s a problem because, for every reasonable, probing question I get about Surface with Windows RT—the recently launched Microsoft device—I receive at least 10 questions that betray that simple truth: Most people have no idea what’s going on here. No idea at all. To be clear, I’m not blaming you, you person with these questions. It’s no wonder you have no idea what’s going on. Fact is, Microsoft has decided to launch a Windows RT version of its Surface three months before a Windows 8 version. And to do so without effectively communicating what, exactly, it is selling. Put another way, on the day that Microsoft launches Windows 8 to the world—a day that is the most eagerly awaited Microsoft product launch since Windows 95—Microsoft will also launch a device that runs Windows RT, and not Windows 8. Think about that for a minute. And consider this: When Microsoft finally announced the pricing and availability of that (Windows RT, not Windows 8) product this week, it left out crucial technical specifications as always, even as it allowed customers to actually pre-order the thing. Cue onslaught of questions. Cue deer in the headlamp response. This was avoidable. Based on my email, I have to think that most of these first customers have absolutely no idea what they’re buying. That some have still made an amazingly expensive purchase regardless, well, it boggles the mind. Regular readers of this site already know that I’ve written about this stuff. A lot. I mean, just this week, I wrote Microsoft Surface: RT Vs. Pro, A Specifications Comparison, a way to pick between the current RT-only versions of Surface and the coming Windows 8-based versions. I published Mailbag: Microsoft Surface Special Edition, a collection of the most frequent (and reasonable) Windows RT and Surface RT questions I’ve received since the product pre-order announcement. Most important, I published How To Choose: Windows 8 Vs. Windows RT, a guide to choosing between Windows RT and Windows 8. But people still don’t understand Windows RT. Because of the amazing amount of email I’ve received this week, I kept my Windows Phone nearby while watching TV last night and answered dozens of emails during commercial breaks. I went to sleep with not a single email left unread. And yet I woke up to 154 non-spam emails, most about Surface and Windows RT, this morning. 154. Just from overnight. Some of the questions I’m getting are absolutely amazing to me. And these emails, which are almost child-like in their lack of awareness, speaking volumes about the job that Microsoft simply is not doing communicating this product—and its differences with Windows 8—to customers.

[chucker]

I have to wonder why Windows RT won't sign in to AD. It's too bone-headed to be purely for marketing reasons. Maybe they couldn't port the legacy x86 code to ARM in time?

[Kraetos]

You gotta love Paul Thurott. People are confused about a new Microsoft product and it's not the product's fault... it's Microsoft Marketing's fault! The Surface is the pinnacle of mobile computing, even if it's also the most confusing product Microsoft has ever produced!

What a hack. I suspect he's gonna have a real tough time finding a job in about 10 years time. Microsoft is on the way out and everyone knows it, except Paul. Poor Paul.